0:00:00.000,0:00:02.554
[Francesca] Just to make sure [br]we are safe,

0:00:03.204,0:00:06.963
can you confirm that police[br]is here to protect all of us?

0:00:07.043,0:00:07.870
[Crowd cheers]

0:00:07.930,0:00:08.907
Good!

0:00:08.954,0:00:11.399
[Crowd cheers]

0:00:11.459,0:00:14.009
[Wieland] So I have the great[br]pleasure of welcoming

0:00:14.020,0:00:15.754
Francesca Albanese

0:00:15.944,0:00:19.511
[Crowd cheers]

0:00:19.621,0:00:22.329
United Nations Special Rapporteur

0:00:22.340,0:00:25.976
for Human Rights in the [br]Occupied Palestinian territories.

0:00:27.650,0:00:30.989
Before I hand over to[br]Francesca for some preliminary

0:00:31.000,0:00:34.689
remarks I would just like to[br]inform everyone that

0:00:34.700,0:00:36.854
at the last update

0:00:37.360,0:00:42.003
that I received, we had 1 ,700 [br]people viewing the live stream.

0:00:42.309,0:00:47.599
[Crowd cheers]

0:00:47.699,0:00:52.649
So this this may be a small[br]room, but the virtual space

0:00:52.660,0:00:54.764
we are occupying[br]is a large one.

0:00:54.764,0:00:56.869
So without further ado,

0:00:56.880,0:00:59.832
Francesca please speak to us.

0:00:59.914,0:01:03.659
[Crowd cheers]

0:01:03.740,0:01:06.020
[Francesca] You're not police, right?

0:01:06.094,0:01:08.669
[Crowd laughs]

0:01:08.760,0:01:14.004
Camouflaging okay.

0:01:14.004,0:01:19.249
So I have to admit that about 75

0:01:19.260,0:01:25.718
hours in this country have[br]made me pretty nervous.

0:01:26.620,0:01:30.905
I can't wait to go back to[br]peaceful Tunisia

0:01:31.075,0:01:35.135
[Crowd cheers]

0:01:35.230,0:01:36.940
because the situation is bad

0:01:36.940,0:01:39.910
for freedom[br]of expression pretty much

0:01:39.910,0:01:45.659
everywhere and still I've[br]never felt this sense of

0:01:45.670,0:01:48.619
lacking oxygen as I do here.

0:01:48.790,0:01:52.699
So please, please, I know[br]they're very happy to see me.

0:01:53.390,0:01:55.289
Make sense.

0:01:56.944,0:02:00.499
Yes, but I'm someone who speaks

0:02:00.510,0:02:04.077
of genocide and there is a[br]genocide ongoing

0:02:04.140,0:02:08.679
and doesn't matter how much[br]genocide denialism there is,

0:02:08.690,0:02:11.949
we need to be really[br]aware, aware of

0:02:11.950,0:02:14.470
what we need to do all[br]together because I really want

0:02:14.470,0:02:18.239
to be heard loud and clear[br]before we start talking about

0:02:18.250,0:02:23.665
what I came to know the most,[br]genocide, this year.

0:02:24.010,0:02:28.859
I want to say a few things on which I[br]absolutely don't want to be

0:02:29.460,0:02:31.609
taken wrong and misquoted,

0:02:31.950,0:02:33.854
but of course I[br]will be misquoted!

0:02:33.950,0:02:37.779
So it is a great pleasure for[br]me to be with you today

0:02:37.790,0:02:41.659
and I wish to thank DiEM, A Jewish[br]Voice for a Just Peace in the

0:02:41.670,0:02:44.839
Middle East, Eye on Palestine[br]and Gaza Committee

0:02:45.070,0:02:47.337
for their immense work,

0:02:47.637,0:02:50.734
[Crowd cheers]

0:02:51.064,0:02:51.917
Stop it!

0:02:52.117,0:02:53.531
[Crowd laughs]

0:02:53.901,0:02:55.099
for their immense work

0:02:55.099,0:02:56.669
in bringing this [br]meeting together

0:02:56.669,0:02:58.719
and for inviting me[br]to be here in Berlin.

0:02:58.730,0:03:01.339
I'm sure you have the[br]gratitude of so many for

0:03:01.350,0:03:04.799
creating this platform for[br]many to come together to speak

0:03:04.810,0:03:07.649
on one of the most urgent[br]issues of our time.

0:03:08.230,0:03:10.839
Without your courage and[br]dedication, we would not be

0:03:10.850,0:03:15.299
here today, although, although,[br]for the venue we must thank

0:03:15.310,0:03:19.819
Junge Welt who has given the[br]event last-minute asylum

0:03:19.830,0:03:20.769
and of course,

0:03:20.949,0:03:23.989
[Crowd cheers]

0:03:23.989,0:03:25.379
You are unruly!

0:03:26.069,0:03:28.149
and of course,[br]we have to also

0:03:28.160,0:03:31.689
acknowledge the Israeli[br]ambassador, pro-Israel

0:03:31.700,0:03:34.639
groups and professional[br]smearers in Germany,

0:03:35.020,0:03:38.449
a number of German politicians[br]including the city mayor,

0:03:38.460,0:03:42.329
Berlin police without whose[br]relentless work and pressure and

0:03:42.340,0:03:46.409
intimidation we would be in[br]another, much bigger venue.

0:03:46.780,0:03:48.599
I know how you feel.

0:03:48.960,0:03:52.549
I feel it, too, somewhat, even[br]though the intimidation has

0:03:52.560,0:03:55.779
gotten on my nerves, but[br]not yet under my skin.

0:03:56.320,0:03:59.669
And with German authorities'[br]permission, I plan to return,

0:03:59.680,0:04:03.489
as I said, to the safety[br]of my home in Tunisia

0:04:03.500,0:04:05.219
before this changes.

0:04:06.200,0:04:08.159
We should not fear words.

0:04:09.430,0:04:10.869
We shall fear crimes.

0:04:10.870,0:04:15.129
Those that commit them,[br]and those who deny them.

0:04:16.170,0:04:19.059
And as we proceed, I must[br]acknowledge that some of

0:04:19.070,0:04:21.588
the words I will speak[br]today might be heavy.

0:04:22.089,0:04:25.759
I recognise that many of you[br]carry significant pain,

0:04:25.780,0:04:28.699
and it is with this awareness that[br]I ask for your patience and

0:04:28.710,0:04:32.480
understanding as we explore[br]these difficult subjects.

0:04:33.170,0:04:36.459
Please know that my intention[br]is not to add to that pain,

0:04:36.470,0:04:39.759
but to bring light, healing, and[br]perhaps a sense of solidarity

0:04:39.770,0:04:41.940
as we move forward together.

0:04:42.470,0:04:45.399
As you are all aware,[br]my presence in Germany

0:04:45.410,0:04:49.116
these few days has been[br]controversial for many.

0:04:50.070,0:04:54.439
Universities, the beacon of[br]free speech, the cradle of

0:04:54.450,0:04:58.046
free debate, where people[br]can also disagree, right?

0:04:58.046,0:05:01.799
have cancelled events where I[br]was supposed to give talks or

0:05:01.810,0:05:05.381
lectures without any warning,[br]let alone an apology.

0:05:06.190,0:05:07.189
That's rude.

0:05:07.850,0:05:11.419
The organisers in many cases[br]have had to switch venues

0:05:11.430,0:05:15.019
at the last minute, facing[br]threats, condemnation and

0:05:15.030,0:05:19.849
harassment on the street[br]and online, hopefully not on site

0:05:19.900,0:05:24.159
as if I were someone[br]advocating for hate or someone

0:05:24.170,0:05:28.519
wanted by the International[br]Criminal Court for war crimes

0:05:28.530,0:05:30.322
and crimes against humanity.

0:05:30.690,0:05:33.779
Instead, I'm just a legal[br]expert appointed by the

0:05:33.790,0:05:36.380
United Nations to document[br]and report on the violations

0:05:36.380,0:05:37.789
committed by Israel.

0:05:37.950,0:05:42.259
This is what the resolution[br]creating my mandate says,

0:05:42.270,0:05:45.919
even if I also document the[br]violations committed by Hamas

0:05:45.930,0:05:48.570
and the Palestinian Authority.

0:05:49.170,0:05:52.219
I'm the eighth special[br]rapporteur to do this after

0:05:52.230,0:05:56.239
illustrious jurists such as[br]John Duggar, Richard Folk, and

0:05:56.250,0:05:59.799
Michael Link, and the first[br]woman to serve in this

0:05:59.810,0:06:02.141
position after 33 years.

0:06:02.430,0:06:03.749
It is in this capacity...

0:06:03.790,0:06:05.659
This is where you applaud.

0:06:05.899,0:06:11.665
[Audience laughs and applauds.]

0:06:11.780,0:06:15.779
I really want to chill a[br]little bit because it's heavy.

0:06:16.000,0:06:18.619
It is in this capacity[br]that I came to Berlin.

0:06:19.080,0:06:19.959
I arrived here.

0:06:19.980,0:06:22.749
This is something I'm saying[br]just to remind everyone that

0:06:22.760,0:06:25.249
I came as a special rapporteur,[br]still representing

0:06:25.260,0:06:28.009
the United Nations, if there[br]is an inch of respect

0:06:28.020,0:06:30.697
for this institution that[br]is left in this country.

0:06:30.847,0:06:34.049
I arrived here after traveling[br]across Northern Europe and

0:06:34.060,0:06:37.549
being generally welcomed,[br]even where pro-Israel groups

0:06:37.560,0:06:40.869
succeeded to have some cave[br]in to their pressure and

0:06:40.880,0:06:42.759
mafia-style techniques.

0:06:43.540,0:06:46.669
And I'm shocked to see how[br]absurd the world that we

0:06:46.680,0:06:49.269
live in has become, where[br]impartiality to the facts

0:06:49.280,0:06:51.629
and the requirements of[br]international law generate

0:06:51.640,0:06:54.769
more controversy than[br]the killing, maiming,

0:06:54.780,0:06:58.029
torturing, raping,[br]starving, burning alive,

0:06:58.040,0:06:59.579
and entire people as such

0:06:59.580,0:07:02.132
for 16 months and counting,

0:07:02.300,0:07:05.379
and yet, this is the world we live in.

0:07:05.580,0:07:09.029
But so, before getting[br]into the debate,

0:07:09.040,0:07:11.279
what is impartiality and[br]what does it mean?

0:07:11.620,0:07:13.079
What is it not?

0:07:13.290,0:07:15.977
Because this is something[br]that I would like you to carry

0:07:16.090,0:07:20.643
with you after this[br]wonderful afternoon together.

0:07:21.360,0:07:25.389
Impartiality for human rights[br]defenders, investigators and

0:07:25.400,0:07:28.329
monitors like myself entails[br]an obligation to investigate

0:07:28.340,0:07:31.014
and establish the facts[br]objectively,

0:07:31.170,0:07:35.409
studying everything that is brought[br]to our knowledge against

0:07:35.420,0:07:37.337
applicable international law.

0:07:37.540,0:07:41.109
Once the assessment is[br]done, my job is not to be

0:07:41.120,0:07:44.021
equidistant from the parties,[br]whatever it is,

0:07:44.150,0:07:48.489
but to insist on measures to restore[br]legality, to undo injustice

0:07:48.500,0:07:50.483
and prevent further abuses.

0:07:50.980,0:07:54.349
In the case of Palestine, it[br]is overwhelmingly documented

0:07:54.360,0:07:56.789
that Israel commits[br]intentionally, and as a matter

0:07:56.800,0:07:59.729
of state policy, the gravest[br]human rights offenses,

0:07:59.790,0:08:03.669
as part of its long-standing[br]plan to maintain control over

0:08:03.680,0:08:10.009
what Israeli human rights[br]organisation B'Tselem has

0:08:10.020,0:08:14.579
called, quote: 'A regime of [br]Jewish supremacy

0:08:14.580,0:08:17.968
from the Jordan River to[br]the Mediterranean Sea.'

0:08:19.769,0:08:21.379
[Crowd laughs]

0:08:21.580,0:08:23.299
Full stop, end of quote.

0:08:25.850,0:08:28.349
Impartiality cannot be[br]used as a pompous name

0:08:28.360,0:08:31.119
for indifference and an[br]elegant name for ignorance.

0:08:31.460,0:08:34.168
Impartiality is not about[br]maintaining the pretense of

0:08:34.179,0:08:37.049
both sides in the face of[br]international atrocities,

0:08:37.060,0:08:39.689
of maintaining, as I was saying,[br]an equidistant position

0:08:39.700,0:08:44.129
between conflicting parties,[br]even when their positions

0:08:44.140,0:08:46.508
are structurally and[br]historically unequal.

0:08:46.980,0:08:50.889
When one side occupies,[br]depredates, and oppresses,

0:08:50.900,0:08:54.369
and the other is being occupied,[br]depredated, and dispossessed,

0:08:54.380,0:08:56.999
this is a recipe for[br]disaster and violence.

0:08:57.000,0:08:59.585
impartiality is[br]not neutrality.

0:09:00.080,0:09:03.629
Neutrality meaning maintaining[br]an equidistant position

0:09:03.640,0:09:06.609
between conflicting parties[br]even when their positions

0:09:06.620,0:09:10.899
might not be equal and usually[br]to deliver life-saving aid.

0:09:11.220,0:09:14.229
It's not my mandate and not[br]even that of universities

0:09:14.240,0:09:16.379
and not even that[br]of your politicians.

0:09:16.600,0:09:20.729
Our job is not to stay[br]neutral, our job is to stay

0:09:20.740,0:09:23.439
truthful to international law.

0:09:23.540,0:09:25.913
This is what all of[br]us have in common.

0:09:26.970,0:09:30.279
And I stand firmly on[br]universal human rights

0:09:30.290,0:09:32.929
of respect for life[br]and human dignity.

0:09:33.050,0:09:35.839
And whenever it is the case[br]that a state is being allowed

0:09:35.850,0:09:39.699
with impunity to violate these[br]rights, I must speak up, firmly,

0:09:39.710,0:09:41.478
on the side of the oppressed.

0:09:41.550,0:09:45.399
If those who found my[br]presence tonight controversial

0:09:45.410,0:09:48.479
could understand this basic[br]principle, the difference

0:09:48.490,0:09:51.279
between impartiality and[br]neutrality, perhaps there

0:09:51.290,0:09:53.639
would be far less controversy[br]in the first place,

0:09:53.710,0:09:56.639
and of course, there should be[br]understanding and condemnation

0:09:56.639,0:09:58.930
for what has happened to[br]Israeli civilians during

0:09:58.930,0:10:00.003
the brutal attack that

0:10:00.003,0:10:02.600
Hamas and other Palestinian[br]armed groups carried out on

0:10:02.600,0:10:06.419
October 7, 2023, as there[br]should be understanding

0:10:06.430,0:10:08.799
and condemnation for[br]the massacres, violence,

0:10:08.810,0:10:11.499
and oppression that the[br]Palestinians have experienced

0:10:11.510,0:10:14.789
since the Nakba [br]and before the Nakba,

0:10:14.830,0:10:18.399
resistance and opposition to[br]which has certainly

0:10:18.410,0:10:19.669
not spared the Israelis.

0:10:20.170,0:10:23.019
But here we are in an era[br]where speaking out on human

0:10:23.030,0:10:26.199
rights has become a hateful[br]act or even a crime where

0:10:26.210,0:10:30.468
truth is a lie and lies the[br]truth that is used to justify this.

0:10:30.540,0:10:33.559
I mean, I don't see[br]anyone but I was prepared

0:10:33.570,0:10:35.484
to see more police.

0:10:35.750,0:10:40.270
Orwell's famous proclamation that:[br]'War is peace, freedom is slavery,

0:10:40.270,0:10:42.520
ignorance is strength'[br]and that quote has never

0:10:42.520,0:10:44.769
been more true than in[br]the discourse surrounding

0:10:44.769,0:10:46.219
Israel and Palestine.

0:10:46.470,0:10:50.759
This brings me to the elephant[br]in the room, the genocide that

0:10:50.770,0:10:53.939
Israel has been allowed to[br]commit after 56 years of

0:10:53.950,0:10:56.939
unlawful occupation of[br]Palestine and 77 years since

0:10:56.950,0:11:01.239
the mass ethnic cleansing[br]of the Nakba began.

0:11:01.700,0:11:04.709
An event that was in ways[br]irrefamiliar in the present

0:11:04.720,0:11:07.269
day carried out amid[br]massacres and destructions

0:11:07.280,0:11:11.169
that have been recounted by[br]its victims, Nakba survivors,

0:11:11.180,0:11:13.769
but also recorded in[br]the testimonies of its

0:11:13.780,0:11:16.869
perpetrators in some instances[br]or documented in Israeli

0:11:16.880,0:11:19.919
archives and brought to[br]light by diligent and

0:11:19.920,0:11:24.789
honest Israeli historians, an[br]architect who were able to

0:11:24.800,0:11:27.489
access those archives for[br]a brief period of time

0:11:27.500,0:11:28.769
some 30 years ago.

0:11:28.769,0:11:30.970
For even the most[br]sophisticated and experienced

0:11:30.970,0:11:33.789
practitioners of doublespeak,[br]this truth is no longer

0:11:33.800,0:11:34.919
possible to deny.

0:11:34.940,0:11:38.269
I just want to point to one[br]thing and then we move into

0:11:38.280,0:11:39.779
the discussion regarding,

0:11:40.190,0:11:43.520
I mean, the topic [br]of today, genocide.

0:11:43.940,0:11:47.489
In July 2024, the[br]International Court of Justice

0:11:47.500,0:11:50.809
has recognised beyond any[br]reasonable doubt that

0:11:50.820,0:11:53.239
the occupation that Israel[br]maintained in Gaza,

0:11:53.440,0:11:55.980
the West Bank, and East Jerusalem[br]is unlawful

0:11:56.100,0:11:59.299
and must be relinquished totally[br]and unconditionally.

0:11:59.520,0:12:01.849
The troops, the military[br]barracks, the military

0:12:01.860,0:12:03.909
presence, but also[br]the civilian presence,

0:12:03.920,0:12:06.239
all the settlements[br]must be dismantled.

0:12:06.660,0:12:09.629
Which doesn't mean that[br]there will be an uprooting

0:12:09.640,0:12:14.549
of all Jewish people living[br]in the occupied Palestinian

0:12:14.560,0:12:17.539
territory, but the land is to[br]be returned to their owners.

0:12:17.540,0:12:20.469
and perhaps the Jewish[br]Israelis who are there may

0:12:20.480,0:12:23.329
want to rent instead of[br]stealing and living as

0:12:23.340,0:12:26.492
Palestinians if there[br]is a Palestinian state.

0:12:26.652,0:12:29.935
[Crowd cheers]

0:12:30.060,0:12:31.803
And this is not even new.

0:12:32.260,0:12:33.899
This is not even new.

0:12:34.380,0:12:37.349
Everyone knew that the[br]occupation was unlawful and

0:12:37.360,0:12:40.169
not just for violations of[br]international law here and

0:12:40.180,0:12:43.889
there, because Israel kidnapped[br]children and adults including

0:12:43.900,0:12:46.369
in the middle of the night[br]and and put them in jail

0:12:46.380,0:12:51.949
for days, weeks, months, and[br]years until they confessed

0:12:51.960,0:12:53.889
crimes that they had not committed.

0:12:54.920,0:12:58.849
And not just because of[br]torturing, demolishing homes,

0:12:58.860,0:13:02.219
killing people arbitrarily,[br]no, not because of that.

0:13:02.320,0:13:06.089
The occupation is unlawful[br]because by its very presence

0:13:06.100,0:13:08.149
it prevents the [br]Palestinians from enjoying

0:13:08.170,0:13:11.775
the right of self-determination, [br]the right to exist as a people,

0:13:11.830,0:13:16.039
free to determine themselves as a[br]people, which is still being contested

0:13:16.380,0:13:19.859
and it shouldn't be confused[br]with a two-state solution.

0:13:20.380,0:13:24.049
Because this is the political[br]consensus that has formed

0:13:24.060,0:13:27.758
so that the Palestinians have the[br]right, exclusive rights

0:13:27.830,0:13:31.479
to a state, independent state[br]in the land that remains.

0:13:31.520,0:13:35.989
But nonetheless, any other[br]rights lose meanings and

0:13:36.000,0:13:38.169
becomes an exercise of[br]intellectual rhetoric

0:13:38.180,0:13:40.149
without the right of[br]self-determination.

0:13:40.169,0:13:42.909
So in the face of this[br]groundbreaking advisory

0:13:42.920,0:13:45.499
opinion which has confirmed[br]what everyone knew,

0:13:45.540,0:13:48.179
it is the obligation not only of the[br]German government,

0:13:48.220,0:13:51.691
but every German person, [br]including those having businesses,

0:13:51.780,0:13:55.369
living in the settlements, [br]working as soldiers in the Israeli

0:13:55.380,0:13:58.279
occupation forces, [br]not to do that anymore.

0:13:58.760,0:14:01.184
Otherwise, they might[br]face consequences.

0:14:01.660,0:14:03.259
And this is where[br]we are today.

0:14:03.260,0:14:06.809
Instead of working on this[br]and seeing how to abide by

0:14:06.820,0:14:11.018
this incredibly important[br]advisory opinion,

0:14:11.120,0:14:14.349
the government of this country[br]continues to repress

0:14:14.360,0:14:17.600
the critical voices that[br]ask for accountability.

0:14:19.877,0:14:31.438
[Applause]

0:14:31.620,0:14:34.939
[Wieland] Thank you very much for[br]those preliminary remarks.

0:14:35.200,0:14:37.189
No doubt we'll get[br]back to some of those

0:14:37.200,0:14:39.099
points again later.

0:14:39.590,0:14:44.389
But what I wanted to ask you[br]about, and well, this is the

0:14:44.400,0:14:47.262
title of this part of the[br]program:

0:14:47.620,0:14:51.179
International Law in the [br]Face of the Gaza Genocide.

0:14:51.880,0:14:55.129
And something that's often[br]been spoken about over the

0:14:55.140,0:15:00.849
last 16 months by yourself and[br]by many actors of all sorts,

0:15:00.860,0:15:05.422
legal experts, civil society[br]figures, activists,

0:15:06.980,0:15:11.709
is that the very concept of[br]international law has been

0:15:11.720,0:15:16.469
under attack because the[br]genocide has been allowed to

0:15:16.480,0:15:19.479
take place and measures that

0:15:19.480,0:15:25.109
have been set in motion[br]to stop it have also not

0:15:25.120,0:15:26.423
achieved that result.

0:15:26.500,0:15:30.409
The world has let it[br]happen and many feel that

0:15:30.420,0:15:39.619
international law has become[br]impotent and even though in

0:15:39.630,0:15:44.779
the decades since the United[br]Nations were founded and

0:15:44.790,0:15:47.399
we had the establishment[br]of the Geneva Conventions

0:15:47.410,0:15:50.190
and the various pillars of[br]international law were built up,

0:15:50.190,0:15:52.375
of course this is not[br]the first time

0:15:52.375,0:15:55.719
that a power[br]allied with the so-called West

0:15:55.730,0:16:00.359
has chosen not to abide by[br]international law and recent

0:16:00.359,0:16:03.030
decades have seen many other[br]cases, the invasion of Iraq,

0:16:03.030,0:16:04.613
Afghanistan, Libya, etc.

0:16:04.790,0:16:08.309
So, how is the situation[br]different now?

0:16:09.790,0:16:13.779
What additional or greater[br]damage has been done to

0:16:13.790,0:16:17.339
international law and how[br]does one continue to work with

0:16:17.350,0:16:22.111
the standard of international[br]law from now on?

0:16:23.590,0:16:27.989
[Francesca] First of all, let me clarify[br]a couple of things and then we

0:16:27.989,0:16:30.620
will have the opportunity to[br]talk about what constitutes

0:16:30.620,0:16:32.659
genocide because[br]there seems to be much

0:16:32.670,0:16:34.241
confusion in this country.

0:16:34.310,0:16:38.149
So should I say that now or[br]can we get back to this later?

0:16:38.149,0:16:40.346
[Wieland] I think we can [br]get back to it later.

0:16:40.376,0:16:42.672
[Francesca] Perfect, as long[br]as you say that.

0:16:43.230,0:16:47.300
And so, international law[br]is a set of norms

0:16:47.300,0:16:49.280
that member states have agreed upon,

0:16:49.280,0:16:52.259
either through treaties

0:16:52.290,0:16:55.939
or that they have developed[br]as customs, as practice,

0:16:55.950,0:16:59.859
believed to be compliant[br]with general principles

0:16:59.870,0:17:01.559
of law and humanity.

0:17:02.070,0:17:05.864
So what constitutes[br]international law

0:17:05.864,0:17:11.659
is a normative framework intended[br]to prevent violations

0:17:11.680,0:17:13.068
and to correct violations.

0:17:13.230,0:17:15.879
So it's a normative and[br]remedial, it has a normative

0:17:15.890,0:17:17.678
and remedial function.

0:17:18.920,0:17:24.348
Aside of it but complementary[br]is the system that is there to

0:17:24.359,0:17:29.109
regulate the conduct of states[br]and so it's the multilateral

0:17:29.120,0:17:35.238
order which is to be regulated[br]by international norms.

0:17:35.720,0:17:40.689
So while international law has[br]been selectively applied,

0:17:40.860,0:17:49.629
more or less systemically violated,[br]today we see the depth of it

0:17:49.640,0:17:52.359
and we see the system[br]behind it, I believe.

0:17:52.500,0:17:56.536
In the sense that it's clear[br]that the system has never,

0:17:56.600,0:17:59.549
I mean, the multilateral order,[br]the General Assembly,

0:17:59.560,0:18:03.579
which is now more democratic than[br]it was 77 years ago, for example.

0:18:04.440,0:18:07.489
When the United Nations system[br]was created, it was made

0:18:07.500,0:18:14.219
of about 50, 53 states, and[br]now it's made of 193 states.

0:18:14.600,0:18:16.439
So clearly, it has changed.

0:18:16.440,0:18:20.219
but the center of power,[br]it has not changed.

0:18:20.660,0:18:27.859
The system that was birthed[br]as dominated by the colonial world

0:18:27.990,0:18:30.509
like Europe and[br]European offsprings,

0:18:31.120,0:18:37.234
like Australia, New Zealand, the[br]United States and Canada,

0:18:37.320,0:18:40.809
and of course, the first colonies,[br]the first settler colonial

0:18:40.820,0:18:44.069
realities where so many[br]genocides had been committed,

0:18:44.080,0:18:47.319
Latin America, Central[br]and Latin America, sorry,

0:18:47.500,0:18:48.599
Latin America.

0:18:48.760,0:18:51.969
I mean, these were also[br]part of the system,

0:18:51.980,0:18:54.109
but the center of power[br]was with the West,

0:18:54.200,0:18:57.395
what we would call today improperly: [br]West, and remains there.

0:18:57.420,0:19:02.019
So I think that the phase[br]we live in has exposed how

0:19:02.650,0:19:09.719
unequal the system is,[br]how it cannot serve as is the

0:19:09.730,0:19:13.039
interest of everyone in[br]the face of a

0:19:16.220,0:19:23.949
fundamentally now a unipolar order, [br]where the United States dictates

0:19:23.960,0:19:27.119
pretty much what is to[br]be done and what's not,

0:19:27.760,0:19:31.279
regardless or even blatantly[br]against international law.

0:19:31.520,0:19:34.359
So we are at a critical point,[br]and the system is breaking.

0:19:34.840,0:19:40.152
When we international human [br]rights experts have said for years,

0:19:40.240,0:19:42.709
especially this mandate,[br]it's 20 years that

0:19:42.720,0:19:45.749
whomever has held this mandate[br]has said over and over,

0:19:45.760,0:19:46.959
the system is breaking.

0:19:47.110,0:19:49.769
The Occupied Palestinian[br]Territory is a powder keg

0:19:49.780,0:19:52.829
and it will explode and will take[br]all the system with it because

0:19:52.840,0:19:55.969
it's a settler colonial[br]frontier, more violent

0:19:55.980,0:19:56.920
than any other.

0:19:56.920,0:20:00.599
It's not the only form of[br]colonial domination,

0:20:00.740,0:20:06.309
but it's an active settler colony [br]where people are really struggling

0:20:06.320,0:20:09.879
for what settler colonialism[br]is in its more brutal form.

0:20:09.880,0:20:13.609
One people taking control[br]of land, of resources,

0:20:13.620,0:20:14.819
pushing other people out.

0:20:14.960,0:20:19.669
Again, and it's the only one[br]actively, actively militarily,

0:20:19.680,0:20:22.529
politically, financially[br]supported and enabled

0:20:23.120,0:20:24.569
by Western countries.

0:20:24.790,0:20:30.099
So this is the breaking point[br]because there are many people

0:20:30.110,0:20:32.659
who identify themselves[br]with injustice that the

0:20:32.670,0:20:34.801
Palestinians have suffered.

0:20:35.030,0:20:37.459
There are many people who[br]for the first time realise

0:20:37.470,0:20:41.839
and there is a global[br]awareness about this

0:20:41.850,0:20:44.159
and dissatisfaction.

0:20:44.430,0:20:48.459
We see in the fragility and[br]how lonely the Palestinians

0:20:48.470,0:20:54.799
are in the face of all these[br]powers, our own fragility,

0:20:54.810,0:20:57.619
and this is why so many[br]stand in solidarity

0:20:57.630,0:20:59.139
with the Palestinians.

0:20:59.170,0:21:01.349
On top of the fact that it's a[br]simple empathy,

0:21:01.370,0:21:04.820
the fact that what happens to other [br]human beings touches us and doesn't

0:21:04.820,0:21:07.979
I mean the fact of seeing[br]bodies of children

0:21:07.990,0:21:12.979
hanging from the wall[br]or turned into smithereens

0:21:12.990,0:21:15.779
whatever they are, incinerated[br]in refugee camps

0:21:15.910,0:21:19.899
or in tents, plastic tents if not[br]buried under the rubble.

0:21:19.910,0:21:23.755
I mean this is something that doesn't[br]make many people sleep at night

0:21:23.860,0:21:26.669
and it's normal, it's a[br]good sign, it's healthy

0:21:27.128,0:21:32.109
and we shouldn't become idle[br]in the face of this pain.

0:21:32.220,0:21:33.789
Yeah, so we need to decide.

0:21:33.970,0:21:36.599
Now it's the time, we[br]are at the turning point

0:21:36.610,0:21:37.730
and we need to decide.

0:21:37.730,0:21:41.159
The system, of course,[br]will become uglier and more

0:21:41.170,0:21:43.839
resistant and more fierceful,[br]but because the system

0:21:43.850,0:21:45.040
is being challenged.

0:21:45.430,0:21:50.089
The system of which Israel's[br]abuses are a symptom.

0:21:51.170,0:21:53.659
And not, yeah, are a symptom.

0:21:54.850,0:21:58.599
So this should be a wake[br]up call for all of us

0:21:58.610,0:22:00.279
people of conscience.

0:22:00.910,0:22:04.529
I often say a bit rhetorically[br]but I somewhat believe it.

0:22:04.690,0:22:08.399
I mean in the sense it's not[br]the case that the UN Charter

0:22:08.410,0:22:11.979
is not just about states'[br]obligations but it says:

0:22:11.990,0:22:15.039
'we the people' because ultimately,[br]it's we the people who

0:22:15.050,0:22:18.159
are the guardians of[br]these values, these norms.

0:22:18.220,0:22:20.899
Human rights, I mean, I know[br]that people complain a lot

0:22:20.910,0:22:23.204
about international law:[br]'It serves no purpose.'

0:22:23.530,0:22:25.679
Yeah, because you are[br]not the ones who had to

0:22:25.690,0:22:27.324
struggle to abolish slavery.

0:22:27.570,0:22:30.159
You're not the ones who had[br]to struggle to have women's

0:22:30.170,0:22:32.779
rights recognised, even[br]if I admit we still have

0:22:32.790,0:22:33.919
a lot of work to do.

0:22:34.030,0:22:38.919
But so, there have been so many[br]struggles that have led to

0:22:38.930,0:22:42.009
the development of human[br]rights the way they are.

0:22:42.170,0:22:46.719
So while we tend to see[br]human rights as a tool of

0:22:46.730,0:22:49.619
emancipation and that it's[br]failing, I want to also

0:22:49.630,0:22:53.303
remind you, if you take a step[br]back and look at the arc of history

0:22:53.360,0:22:56.679
that these human[br]rights are first and foremost

0:22:56.690,0:23:00.099
the result of someone else's [br]struggle for emancipation.

0:23:00.270,0:23:04.479
And we have grown just too[br]lazy in this part of the world

0:23:04.490,0:23:07.250
because you see the Palestinians, [br]like many other people,

0:23:07.250,0:23:09.110
they don't even have [br]the time to think:

0:23:09.110,0:23:10.639
shall I fight or not?

0:23:10.910,0:23:12.449
Fight peacefully.

0:23:12.690,0:23:15.029
I mean, because many[br]people have no choice.

0:23:15.030,0:23:17.719
If you have the choice,[br]it means that you have

0:23:17.730,0:23:20.069
privilege, that you[br]have chosen not to use.

0:23:20.490,0:23:22.306
And it's your choice,[br]but trust me,

0:23:22.360,0:23:24.089
everything is in line right now.

0:23:24.089,0:23:24.789
It's coming.

0:23:24.790,0:23:29.873
The way repression works[br]in this country is scary,

0:23:30.210,0:23:33.789
should really, should scare[br]the hell out of people.

0:23:33.840,0:23:35.609
And the fact that you don't...

0:23:35.630,0:23:36.934
Thank you.

0:23:37.324,0:23:38.316
[Inaudible]

0:23:38.646,0:23:41.009
[Audience claps]

0:23:41.330,0:23:45.339
No, and the fact that[br]people don't register

0:23:45.350,0:23:46.689
how serious it is.

0:23:46.690,0:23:52.799
The fact that media continue[br]to be as pathetic as they are.

0:23:52.810,0:23:55.319
Again, it's something that,[br]I don't know,

0:23:55.330,0:23:58.349
I'll try to help by continuing to[br]tell what I've seen here.

0:23:58.570,0:24:02.419
But again, I've been in many[br]countries, including countries

0:24:02.430,0:24:05.979
that are lectured by Germany[br]about freedom of

0:24:05.990,0:24:07.654
- freedom of oppression -

0:24:07.814,0:24:11.459
[Audience laughs]

0:24:11.459,0:24:12.200
Sorry.

0:24:12.200,0:24:13.960
[Weiland] Appropriate [br]choice of word.

0:24:13.960,0:24:15.934
[Francesca] No, freedom[br]of expression and

0:24:15.934,0:24:16.859
[Audience laughs]

0:24:16.859,0:24:17.649
freedom of...

0:24:17.659,0:24:19.809
It was not even[br]the worst that came out,

0:24:20.180,0:24:23.050
the worst lapses that came[br]out of my mouth today.

0:24:23.160,0:24:27.189
However, freedom of expression[br]and freedom of assembly,

0:24:27.200,0:24:30.569
I mean, countries that have been[br]lectured by Germany about how

0:24:30.580,0:24:33.789
important these rights are[br]and who are really struggling

0:24:33.800,0:24:35.456
to guarantee these rights.

0:24:35.456,0:24:38.141
I mean, don't want to guarantee[br]these rights to citizens,

0:24:38.141,0:24:39.820
don't even make a[br]mystery out of it.

0:24:39.820,0:24:47.048
And still, I've experienced[br]much less intimidation

0:24:47.700,0:24:49.574
and fear than here.

0:24:49.784,0:24:52.039
So I again, I'm with you

0:24:52.680,0:24:56.124
and yeah, let's brace for[br]what happens next.

0:24:57.355,0:25:02.515
[Appause]

0:25:02.680,0:25:06.249
[Weiland] What I want to get out a bit[br]because I think this is also

0:25:06.260,0:25:08.969
something that really many[br]people in the world have been

0:25:08.980,0:25:13.879
asking themselves or[br]asking other people is:

0:25:15.340,0:25:19.889
if international law wasn't[br]able to prevent this genocide,

0:25:20.670,0:25:25.049
if there were not the[br]necessary mechanisms

0:25:25.060,0:25:26.525
of enforcement

0:25:26.655,0:25:29.729
really to stop the people[br]who are committing it,

0:25:32.740,0:25:34.954
what does it still offer?

0:25:35.344,0:25:37.179
[Francesca] Yeah,[br]so as I was saying,

0:25:37.230,0:25:39.991
there has been a phase where [br]human rights protection

0:25:39.991,0:25:42.105
of individual rights was not there.

0:25:42.105,0:25:44.669
We are lucky because[br]we have those rights.

0:25:44.752,0:25:47.800
Those rights also allow [br]us to keep some sanity

0:25:47.800,0:25:49.719
and saying this is [br]completely wrong.

0:25:49.750,0:25:51.344
Now, there are the standards,

0:25:51.344,0:25:53.390
there are the law [br]enforcement mechanisms

0:25:53.390,0:25:57.649
that in many respects have[br]never worked for Palestine.

0:25:57.910,0:26:01.009
Palestine has always been[br]the big exception

0:26:01.320,0:26:04.049
and for a number of reasons.

0:26:04.049,0:26:08.450
We don't need to unpack all[br]the problems of the world now.

0:26:13.010,0:26:14.275
[Wieland] Number 2?

0:26:14.335,0:26:15.680
[Francesca] No, I'm serious.

0:26:15.810,0:26:25.179
But the thing is that, when[br]governments do not enforce,

0:26:25.190,0:26:30.519
do not abide by international[br]law, next in line is

0:26:30.530,0:26:34.819
like watchdogs that are the[br]civil society, NGOs are the

0:26:34.830,0:26:37.963
natural watchdogs of what[br]the government does,

0:26:38.030,0:26:39.814
unless there is an ombudsman.

0:26:39.990,0:26:43.799
There are protection[br]mechanisms at the

0:26:43.810,0:26:44.839
country level.

0:26:45.210,0:26:47.419
Otherwise, there is the[br]international...

0:26:47.430,0:26:49.669
No, there are the [br]courts, tribunals.

0:26:49.810,0:26:52.289
In fact, in other countries,[br]these are working.

0:26:52.470,0:26:55.439
These are mechanisms that[br]have been activated through

0:26:55.450,0:26:58.599
strategic litigation of civil[br]society who have sued the

0:26:58.610,0:27:02.619
government for complicity in[br]crimes and for transferring

0:27:02.630,0:27:03.869
weapons to Israel

0:27:03.869,0:27:05.751
at the time, it was[br]committing genocide.

0:27:05.751,0:27:10.099
and I hope more and more there[br]needs to be scrutiny of what

0:27:10.110,0:27:18.579
universities, pension funds,[br]banks, and any other private actors

0:27:18.620,0:27:22.739
who contributes in any[br]possible ways, big or small,

0:27:22.750,0:27:27.180
to the unlawfulness of[br]Israel's presence

0:27:27.240,0:27:29.229
in the occupied [br]Palestinian territory,

0:27:29.300,0:27:31.093
they must be[br]held accountable.

0:27:31.510,0:27:34.339
And you know, in a country[br]like that, that is not easy,

0:27:34.350,0:27:36.879
because I hear that this[br]is something that has been

0:27:36.890,0:27:40.869
tried already and there[br]has been a bit of pushback.

0:27:41.010,0:27:44.119
I hope it's not the case[br]because really I had, again

0:27:44.130,0:27:47.019
I'm someone who has grown[br]a thinking of Germany as an

0:27:47.030,0:27:49.619
example because of its legal[br]scholars and because of

0:27:49.630,0:27:51.469
its courageous judges.

0:27:51.810,0:27:54.959
I'm not in again, studying [br]Palestinian refugees

0:27:54.970,0:27:57.799
in international[br]law writing a book about

0:27:57.810,0:27:59.789
Palestinian refugees[br]in international law.

0:27:59.789,0:28:02.352
I would like to remind that[br]it was German courts which

0:28:02.352,0:28:05.339
allowed to develop the[br]jurisprudence that has

0:28:05.350,0:28:08.799
existed on how to protect[br]Palestinian refugees

0:28:08.810,0:28:11.289
outside the Middle East.

0:28:11.510,0:28:14.649
So even in Germany, it[br]has never been that bad.

0:28:15.010,0:28:18.009
You can still go back[br]to a place of sanity.

0:28:18.450,0:28:21.669
So courts have to be[br]activated, but also

0:28:23.289,0:28:28.423
certain struggles are not [br]brought to court,

0:28:28.754,0:28:32.799
cannot not be fought

0:28:32.884,0:28:36.804
without the[br]- peacefully fought of course -

0:28:36.930,0:28:39.529
without the support of [br]the public opinion.

0:28:40.050,0:28:43.220
Because eventually judges[br]also read newspapers.

0:28:43.630,0:28:46.429
And the problem is if the[br]debate is so toxic,

0:28:46.660,0:28:50.079
if the media's work is primarily[br]not about telling the facts

0:28:50.090,0:28:52.659
let alone the legal[br]qualifications,

0:28:52.730,0:28:59.729
but about manufacturing consensus[br]so as to maintain a certain narrative

0:28:59.790,0:29:01.299
a certain discourse,

0:29:01.310,0:29:02.783
it's very complicated.

0:29:03.090,0:29:07.999
So what is left is there are[br]international mechanisms

0:29:08.010,0:29:10.657
that scrutinise the [br]performance of states,

0:29:10.657,0:29:15.189
but again, I'm not [br]starry-eyed on this.

0:29:15.330,0:29:19.219
Right now, it sounds like[br]an emergency,

0:29:19.230,0:29:23.625
and in time of emergency, [br]you don't go into a long-term plan,

0:29:23.690,0:29:24.999
if you see what I mean.

0:29:24.999,0:29:27.759
So I do think that most[br]of the work is to be done,

0:29:27.770,0:29:31.919
of course, internationally,[br]eliciting solidarity from others,

0:29:31.930,0:29:35.519
eliciting scrutiny,[br]because there is, again,

0:29:35.530,0:29:38.659
there is a sense that in Germany,[br]things are bad,

0:29:39.730,0:29:44.979
but now, I can tell you, if I'm shocked, [br]if I'm that shocked

0:29:45.040,0:29:47.409
I can tell you, there is no [br]real understanding

0:29:47.409,0:29:49.191
of what's going on [br]in this country,

0:29:49.230,0:29:52.646
and I'm afraid that [br]this will continue to spread.

0:29:53.740,0:29:56.829
So, yeah, many more people[br]should talk about that,

0:29:56.829,0:29:59.329
many more people should ask[br]your government questions

0:29:59.340,0:30:01.989
and the subsequent[br]government questions.

0:30:02.180,0:30:06.169
So it's a struggle that[br]needs to be continued

0:30:06.180,0:30:09.642
on a multi-fronts level.

0:30:10.180,0:30:11.824
[Wieland] You said it's about...

0:30:11.864,0:30:14.160
[Francesca] Just one second, [br]by the way, the ICJ

0:30:14.160,0:30:16.489
and the ICC, because then[br]it seems that nothing

0:30:16.500,0:30:18.380
is happening at the[br]international level.

0:30:18.380,0:30:21.219
While international justice[br]is very slow, it's moving.

0:30:21.220,0:30:23.549
I mean, for the first time,[br]and it would have been

0:30:23.560,0:30:28.519
unimaginable years ago, [br]where in this country,

0:30:28.540,0:30:31.829
like many other, including my country,[br]was even impossible to say

0:30:31.840,0:30:38.039
apartheid, let alone genocide,[br]and despite the difficulties,

0:30:38.260,0:30:43.989
now, the ICC has indicted two[br]Israeli leaders, one active,

0:30:44.000,0:30:48.189
the prime minister, and the other, [br]the former minister of defense

0:30:48.260,0:30:50.509
so they are wanted[br]by the ICC, and hopefully,

0:30:50.520,0:30:52.422
I think that there should[br]be many more,

0:30:52.422,0:30:55.779
because the colonisation has been[br]ongoing for a long time.

0:30:55.960,0:30:59.809
And the International Court[br]of Justice is looking at

0:31:00.390,0:31:03.039
genocide in two cases.

0:31:03.260,0:31:05.689
Genocide in the Occupied[br]Palestinian Territory,

0:31:05.700,0:31:10.849
both in the case initiated by South[br]Africa versus Germany, sorry,

0:31:10.860,0:31:14.709
Israel, and, sorry guys,[br]I am on two hours sleep,

0:31:14.720,0:31:18.929
so be patient, and I was[br]quite sleep-deprived,

0:31:18.940,0:31:21.819
and Nicaragua versus Germany.

0:31:22.080,0:31:25.609
So your country is brought[br]before an international

0:31:25.620,0:31:28.529
court of justice because[br]of its support to

0:31:28.540,0:31:30.101
the genocide in Gaza.

0:31:30.800,0:31:34.209
[Wieland] You actually just[br]mentioned the ICC warrants,

0:31:34.220,0:31:35.929
which I wanted to ask you about.

0:31:37.360,0:31:41.379
On January 27th, International[br]Holocaust Remembrance Day,

0:31:41.390,0:31:44.759
originally there was a[br]plan for Netanyahu

0:31:44.770,0:31:48.839
to go to Auschwitz for a[br]commemoration celebration.

0:31:50.710,0:31:56.334
And in the end he didn't, a[br]junior member of government went

0:31:57.959,0:32:01.379
but there was obviously[br]much controversy about it,

0:32:01.390,0:32:05.559
and the Polish government[br]said quite brazenly that

0:32:05.570,0:32:07.049
they would allow him to come.

0:32:07.130,0:32:09.029
They would not[br]enforce the warrant.

0:32:09.950,0:32:11.925
It wasn't put to the test[br]in the end,

0:32:11.925,0:32:14.568
but that's what they said in front[br]of the whole world.

0:32:14.748,0:32:21.844
The other week, the unfortunately[br]most likely next chancellor

0:32:21.970,0:32:25.498
in this country, Friedrich Merz, [br]conservative leader

0:32:26.270,0:32:31.859
said that if there was[br]a plan for Netanyahu to come

0:32:31.870,0:32:34.920
to Germany, then of course he[br]would not be arrested,

0:32:35.830,0:32:38.479
that these warrants[br]mean nothing.

0:32:39.509,0:32:42.649
Now, of course, one could[br]say this is all hot air,

0:32:42.660,0:32:45.479
but what could be done?

0:32:45.520,0:32:46.569
What would happen?

0:32:47.020,0:32:51.229
[Francesca] Well, you see, without even[br]bothering international law,

0:32:51.240,0:32:56.029
is it normal that someone who[br]is not even in function yet

0:32:56.040,0:33:01.889
or might have governmental[br]function steps into the realm

0:33:01.900,0:33:05.019
of competence that belongs[br]to the justice system?

0:33:05.020,0:33:08.449
It's not up to government[br]officials to say whether

0:33:08.460,0:33:13.929
someone will be arrested[br]or not, based on the

0:33:13.940,0:33:16.409
determination, on an[br]investigation that has

0:33:16.420,0:33:19.719
been carried out by the[br]International Criminal Court.

0:33:20.440,0:33:23.669
I mean, you see, we are[br]completely dismantling

0:33:23.680,0:33:27.432
the system that we[br]have so hardly...

0:33:27.560,0:33:31.289
I mean, with so much[br]sacrifice and political

0:33:31.300,0:33:32.659
investment built.

0:33:33.150,0:33:34.179
Out of what?

0:33:34.320,0:33:35.880
Seriously, out of what?

0:33:35.940,0:33:43.149
Like, this alliance among[br]politicians who tend

0:33:43.160,0:33:46.949
to protect each other[br]when one commits crimes

0:33:46.960,0:33:49.805
and end up committing[br]crimes all together.

0:33:50.450,0:33:52.139
Now I'm getting[br]arrested, yeah.

0:33:52.280,0:33:55.019
In south of Italy has[br]a very specific name.

0:33:56.330,0:33:57.936
I'm not going to say that.

0:33:58.510,0:34:01.189
But this is not normal.

0:34:01.650,0:34:05.759
This is non-normal, the[br]intimidation against human

0:34:05.770,0:34:09.438
rights defenders, lawyers,[br]scholars, the pressure in

0:34:09.449,0:34:13.178
university in order not[br]to have an honest debate,

0:34:13.190,0:34:18.566
frankly, about 60,000 people[br]plus that have been killed

0:34:21.260,0:34:25.108
without, again, without[br]denying that crimes have been

0:34:25.120,0:34:28.148
committed against Israelis,[br]absolutely, no one

0:34:28.159,0:34:29.500
has ever denied that,

0:34:29.500,0:34:32.329
I have been condemning crimes[br]against civilians because

0:34:32.340,0:34:34.788
my red line is that a[br]civilian is a civilian,

0:34:34.788,0:34:35.980
and so it's untouchable.

0:34:35.980,0:34:39.789
It's the responsibility of the[br]government and of the states

0:34:39.800,0:34:41.176
to respond for crimes.

0:34:41.176,0:34:43.560
But here's the responsibility[br]of Germany as well.

0:34:43.560,0:34:45.307
What is left to[br]the Palestinians?

0:34:45.600,0:34:47.948
What is left to the[br]Palestinians not to be

0:34:47.960,0:34:50.264
erased in the little that[br]remains of their land?

0:34:50.880,0:34:52.708
The guardians of the[br]self-determination

0:34:52.719,0:34:55.138
of the Palestinians[br]are member states.

0:34:55.518,0:34:56.787
[Applause]

0:34:57.350,0:35:06.397
What has Germany done[br]throughout 2023 when 12 pogroms,

0:35:06.580,0:35:10.438
according to how they[br]have been defined by many,

0:35:10.450,0:35:13.079
including in Israel, have[br]been carried out against

0:35:13.090,0:35:18.278
defenseless Palestinian[br]villages by violent, armed,

0:35:18.290,0:35:22.559
ideological settlers,[br]escorted, as usual,

0:35:22.570,0:35:24.199
by the Israeli army.

0:35:25.230,0:35:30.619
And again, homes and cars and[br]other possessions have been

0:35:30.630,0:35:34.559
incinerated and so orchards,[br]and Palestinians have been

0:35:34.570,0:35:36.309
beaten up and terrorized.

0:35:36.720,0:35:37.869
Where was Germany?

0:35:37.890,0:35:41.139
And Germany knows, not because[br]necessarily your government

0:35:41.150,0:35:43.478
has to read the[br]human rights reports,

0:35:43.490,0:35:47.921
but because it has a diplomatic[br]presence in the

0:35:47.921,0:35:49.410
occupied Palestinian territory.

0:35:49.410,0:35:51.809
And everyone knows what's[br]going on in the

0:35:51.809,0:35:53.290
occupied Palestinian territory.

0:35:53.290,0:35:56.579
And everyone knows the crimes[br]that Israel has been committed

0:35:56.590,0:35:58.489
with impunity for decades.

0:35:58.890,0:36:04.318
So the Palestinians have been[br]persecuted, abused, oppressed,

0:36:04.330,0:36:09.568
killed, blamed, smeared,[br]and in the face of this we

0:36:09.580,0:36:10.959
cannot even talk about that?

0:36:11.780,0:36:13.629
I mean, again, this[br]is not my problem.

0:36:13.760,0:36:17.429
I mean, thank God that I'm[br]not that sensitive that

0:36:17.440,0:36:19.419
someone cancels it.

0:36:21.520,0:36:26.749
And again, I talk, and I take[br]it personally, I said: As long

0:36:26.760,0:36:30.469
as they pay the hotel room[br]for which they invited me.

0:36:30.569,0:36:31.608
That's fine.

0:36:32.530,0:36:33.907
The problem is yours.

0:36:34.290,0:36:36.719
This is the country you[br]live in and your fellow

0:36:36.730,0:36:38.078
citizens live in.

0:36:38.290,0:36:40.824
So, and it's very serious.

0:36:41.470,0:36:42.839
[Wieland] Certainly is.

0:36:43.640,0:36:44.625
Thank you.

0:36:44.752,0:36:51.077
[Applause]

0:36:51.170,0:36:54.458
I'm just looking a bit at[br]the time and we wanted to

0:36:54.470,0:36:57.049
give a bit of space for[br]people to ask questions.

0:36:57.550,0:37:00.099
No doubt there'll be many[br]questions and not every

0:37:00.110,0:37:01.969
question can be taken.

0:37:01.970,0:37:07.418
But you said that you also[br]wanted to share some points

0:37:07.430,0:37:08.909
about genocide earlier.

0:37:09.130,0:37:11.765
[Francesca] Yes, very briefly,[br]as much as I can.

0:37:12.490,0:37:17.478
Because it's very important[br]to remind ourselves of what

0:37:17.490,0:37:22.569
genocide is and what the[br]risk of genocide triggers.

0:37:22.710,0:37:24.815
It's very important[br]in this country,

0:37:25.670,0:37:31.298
because it's genocide[br]is not defined by personal

0:37:31.310,0:37:33.978
opinions and personal[br]histories no matter how

0:37:33.990,0:37:38.358
painful they are and there is[br]no question, no question that

0:37:39.190,0:37:43.796
Germany has a lot to atone[br]for for the genocides it has committed.

0:37:44.020,0:37:48.479
And at the same time,[br]genocide today,

0:37:48.555,0:37:50.509
what constitutes genocide

0:37:50.540,0:37:53.745
is written in an international treaty.

0:37:54.130,0:37:57.338
What constitutes genocide is[br]acts of killing against the

0:37:57.350,0:38:01.778
members of a group, infliction[br]of severe mental or physical

0:38:01.790,0:38:04.478
harm to members of the group,[br]the creation of conditions

0:38:04.490,0:38:08.458
of life calculated to lead[br]to the physical destruction

0:38:08.470,0:38:15.318
of members of the group[br]and prevent, thank you,

0:38:15.330,0:38:17.589
prevention of birth and

0:38:17.590,0:38:19.414
the transfer of children.

0:38:19.894,0:38:25.898
So you see, I hear criticism[br]like in the UK,

0:38:25.910,0:38:27.980
for example, look at the[br]numbers of killing

0:38:27.980,0:38:30.707
as killing 70,000[br]people was not bad.

0:38:31.470,0:38:34.499
Again, I often ask myself,[br]what kind of monsters

0:38:34.510,0:38:35.732
have we become?

0:38:36.030,0:38:41.039
But also the brutality of the[br]attack, the way everything has

0:38:41.050,0:38:44.828
been destroyed, in a way, as[br]we will have the chance to talk

0:38:46.370,0:38:49.938
in a way that has led[br]to conditions calculated to

0:38:49.950,0:38:51.762
destroy the Palestinians.

0:38:51.782,0:38:54.019
But the thing is that in[br]order to have genocide,

0:38:54.030,0:38:56.049
it's not sufficient to[br]commit these crimes.

0:38:56.070,0:38:59.599
The crimes have to be[br]committed with intent,

0:38:59.610,0:39:04.363
with the determination to[br]destroy the group as such.

0:39:05.050,0:39:09.569
And people say it's very[br]difficult to prove intent.

0:39:10.000,0:39:10.959
Yes, you know why?

0:39:10.960,0:39:13.830
Because it's very difficult to[br]commit, I mean, it's difficult

0:39:13.830,0:39:16.630
to prove genocide because it[br]should be difficult to commit

0:39:16.630,0:39:19.861
genocide in 2024 or in 2025.

0:39:20.980,0:39:23.738
It shouldn't be possible[br]because in the system,

0:39:23.850,0:39:27.708
there are some check and balances[br]in a system that calls itself

0:39:27.720,0:39:30.869
democratic where there is[br]a rule of law system

0:39:30.880,0:39:32.529
with the separation of power.

0:39:32.760,0:39:35.849
I mean, you might have crazy[br]government officials making

0:39:35.860,0:39:38.729
genocidal incitements and[br]say: starve them all,

0:39:38.850,0:39:44.453
kill them all, they are all[br]animals, even the kids.

0:39:44.860,0:39:47.409
I mean, Germany is not the[br]first time where this has

0:39:47.420,0:39:50.588
happened because I've read[br]the Nuremberg Trials Act

0:39:50.600,0:39:53.309
and children were seen[br]as a security threat.

0:39:55.670,0:39:58.758
But there might be, [br]there might be,

0:39:59.310,0:40:02.099
I mean, cabinet, war cabinet[br]ministers saying that.

0:40:02.240,0:40:06.749
And then, what are the other[br]cabinet ministers doing

0:40:06.760,0:40:08.280
in the face of this?

0:40:08.350,0:40:12.909
What are the MPs, the members[br]of the Knesset, what have they

0:40:12.920,0:40:17.910
done to intervene, to stop[br]this, this incitement?

0:40:18.620,0:40:21.749
What has the judiciary done[br]when the International Court

0:40:21.760,0:40:25.389
of Justice recognised the risk[br]of genocide, ordered Israel to

0:40:25.400,0:40:31.068
take measures to stop carrying[br]out its military operations

0:40:31.080,0:40:34.119
in a way that could result in[br]genocidal attacks,

0:40:34.190,0:40:39.413
as it had been doing, [br]and had Israel complied

0:40:39.490,0:40:41.559
with the ICJ provisional measures

0:40:41.560,0:40:45.604
of January 2024, we wouldn't[br]be here today, probably.

0:40:46.020,0:40:48.859
And what has the[br]judiciary done?

0:40:49.000,0:40:52.168
Has the judiciary in Israel[br]investigated any of the

0:40:52.180,0:40:56.779
people, senior officials of[br]Israel who have been named

0:40:56.820,0:41:02.269
in the provisional measures, [br]in the text of the court that

0:41:02.280,0:41:05.949
accompanied in the provisional[br]measures, that system has

0:41:05.960,0:41:10.249
proven that being a reflex[br]of the enabling environment

0:41:10.260,0:41:12.449
that Israel as a state was.

0:41:13.500,0:41:15.890
And the intent has been,[br]it's not even that we need

0:41:15.890,0:41:18.999
to dig to find intent,[br]there is direct intent.

0:41:19.260,0:41:24.208
Because when Netanyahu and[br]others have ordered, again,

0:41:24.220,0:41:29.849
starvation, no water,[br]no fuel, no electricity,

0:41:29.860,0:41:33.319
no food, no food.

0:41:34.140,0:41:38.889
Of course, this would lead[br]to conditions calculated to

0:41:38.900,0:41:43.088
bring about the destruction[br]of a group or members

0:41:43.100,0:41:45.919
of the group as such[br]identified as Palestinians.

0:41:46.160,0:41:49.148
So in the face of this,[br]there should have been an

0:41:49.160,0:41:52.028
obligation, as I said, to[br]prevent because the convention

0:41:52.040,0:41:58.188
on genocide is not just[br]about the punishment of

0:41:58.200,0:41:59.357
the crime of genocide.

0:41:59.357,0:42:03.588
creates for each state,[br]especially influential

0:42:03.600,0:42:06.369
states who are providing[br]support, an obligation

0:42:06.380,0:42:08.339
to prevent and stop.

0:42:08.620,0:42:13.628
And again, in April 2024,[br]in Nicaragua versus Germany,

0:42:13.640,0:42:16.688
the court reminded Germany[br]and other member states to

0:42:16.700,0:42:20.688
intervene by not transferring[br]weapons to states who might be

0:42:20.700,0:42:23.929
committing not just genocidal[br]acts, but violations of

0:42:23.940,0:42:26.939
international humanitarian[br]law, including war crimes.

0:42:26.940,0:42:31.939
So the killing of 17 ,000[br]children, what is it?

0:42:32.040,0:42:35.199
This is what journalists[br]should ask your Chancellor.

0:42:35.560,0:42:37.969
Because again, it's not[br]about his personal opinion,

0:42:37.980,0:42:39.319
which I respect very much.

0:42:39.920,0:42:44.088
But it doesn't respond to[br]this question out of personal

0:42:44.100,0:42:45.359
commitment, I imagine.

0:42:45.520,0:42:48.300
But as the chancellor of this[br]country, which has obligation

0:42:48.300,0:42:49.469
under international law.

0:42:49.660,0:42:55.068
And the way Germany is evading[br]its obligations and acting

0:42:55.080,0:42:57.829
in a way that is prohibited[br]under international

0:42:57.840,0:43:00.659
law cannot be hidden.

0:43:01.080,0:43:02.365
This is the reality.

0:43:03.280,0:43:06.789
That's an appropriate note[br]to end on before we open

0:43:06.800,0:43:07.880
it up to the audience.

0:43:07.880,0:43:10.608
We are representatives of[br]Students for Palestine, FU,

0:43:10.620,0:43:14.449
and also students from the[br]not-so-free university here

0:43:14.460,0:43:17.969
in Berlin that cancelled[br]your event tomorrow, so we

0:43:17.980,0:43:20.468
are very happy to see you[br]and to ask our questions.

0:43:20.468,0:43:23.528
In a recent viral video,[br]you rightfully criticized

0:43:23.540,0:43:26.099
the German state and the[br]situation this country is in.

0:43:26.500,0:43:29.349
You are also aware of the[br]protests and the repression

0:43:29.360,0:43:30.399
we are experiencing.

0:43:30.860,0:43:33.210
Our question would be, how[br]can we stand up against

0:43:33.210,0:43:36.929
such state repression,[br]and who can we trust when

0:43:36.940,0:43:38.185
it comes to our rights?

0:43:38.620,0:43:41.048
I mean, we are protesting[br]and boycotting, but

0:43:41.060,0:43:42.399
what else can we do?

0:43:42.400,0:43:47.088
Maybe you are aware of this,[br]I think we tried to convey a

0:43:47.100,0:43:51.989
very comprehensive report on[br]the collaborations of Freie

0:43:52.000,0:43:56.309
Universität with a series[br]of Israeli institutions and

0:43:56.320,0:44:00.108
universities which we think[br]are in very clear breach

0:44:00.120,0:44:03.559
of international law and[br]morality as such too.

0:44:03.780,0:44:07.389
To give one example, the Freie[br]Universität is sending its

0:44:07.400,0:44:10.028
students very often without[br]the knowledge where it's

0:44:10.040,0:44:12.880
specifically sending and what[br]kind of situation it's sending

0:44:12.880,0:44:16.608
these students to exchange[br]programs for example with the

0:44:16.620,0:44:20.048
Hebrew University which has[br]its students hostels in East

0:44:20.060,0:44:22.499
Jerusalem on which we think is

0:44:22.500,0:44:27.329
an equal illegal settlement and[br]we would like if you could say

0:44:27.340,0:44:31.869
a few words on what you think[br]are the obligations of German

0:44:31.880,0:44:35.399
universities, in particular[br]FU regarding such cases.

0:44:35.620,0:44:38.608
We also would like to forward[br]a question for later to Eyal

0:44:38.620,0:44:43.329
already, what he thinks, as[br]a scholar originally from

0:44:43.340,0:44:47.249
Israel, what the political[br]impact of such campaigns

0:44:47.260,0:44:50.369
is also in order to break[br]the normalisation of

0:44:50.380,0:44:51.859
occupation and apartheid.

0:44:52.660,0:44:57.068
And to give another example[br]on this, the university's law

0:44:57.080,0:45:01.548
faculty, where I am a student[br]at currently, has a couple of

0:45:01.560,0:45:04.648
programs running, but one of[br]them is called, Human Rights

0:45:04.660,0:45:08.708
Under Pressure, and it[br]advertises with experiencing

0:45:08.720,0:45:12.188
and researching these[br]human rights under pressure

0:45:12.200,0:45:13.539
in the field, and is

0:45:13.540,0:45:19.048
sending programs very often[br]to Israel and the occupied

0:45:19.060,0:45:22.648
territories, and as I think[br]Francesca has been made

0:45:22.660,0:45:26.249
aware of by a letter that[br]FU professors from the law

0:45:26.260,0:45:32.289
department wrote, yeah, it is,[br]you know, this normalisation

0:45:32.300,0:45:34.759
is happening through these[br]kinds of corporations.

0:45:35.280,0:45:38.068
Anyways, thanks for your[br]attention, we will probably

0:45:38.080,0:45:47.309
tomorrow upload the report[br]on bds-fu.de, bds-fu.de,

0:45:47.320,0:45:50.839
and try to support the[br]campaign if you want to.

0:45:51.744,0:45:56.654
[Applause]

0:45:56.710,0:46:00.378
I would also like to really[br]beg for your indulgence in the

0:46:00.390,0:46:04.099
sense that, after all, I mean,[br]I'm very happy to be received

0:46:04.110,0:46:10.159
by so much warmth and[br]expectations, but also I would

0:46:10.170,0:46:13.679
like you to keep realistic[br]expectations on what

0:46:13.690,0:46:15.669
can come from me, in[br]the sense I'm really

0:46:15.670,0:46:18.478
just a human rights lawyer[br]who's trying to do the right

0:46:18.490,0:46:22.219
thing, no more than that, and[br]I'm sorry that it's a rare

0:46:22.230,0:46:26.278
commodity in this era, but[br]I don't know, sometimes I

0:46:26.290,0:46:30.499
just don't know, because let[br]me tell you, I think that

0:46:30.510,0:46:33.349
what the universities[br]are doing is wrong.

0:46:34.030,0:46:36.709
It's so wrong that it should[br]be brought to justice.

0:46:37.310,0:46:41.099
University cannot have[br]partnerships with anything

0:46:41.110,0:46:43.429
that has to do with[br]the settlements.

0:46:43.790,0:46:46.378
Cannot have partnership,[br]but really we are being

0:46:46.390,0:46:50.039
conservative here because at[br]the time of apartheid South

0:46:50.050,0:46:54.199
Africa, it's not that we were[br]going to see how to establish

0:46:54.210,0:46:57.818
or cut relations with Israel[br]just in the limit of the

0:46:57.830,0:47:01.938
Bantustan, where South[br]Africa was segregating

0:47:01.950,0:47:04.299
the black South Africans.

0:47:04.370,0:47:07.579
I mean, if Israel commits[br]crimes that should lead to

0:47:07.590,0:47:12.019
accountability and justice[br]360 degrees, so I'm even

0:47:12.030,0:47:16.219
uncomfortable as a lawyer to[br]have to split the hair and

0:47:16.230,0:47:18.509
say the settlements and[br]not the settlements.

0:47:18.790,0:47:21.958
Maya Wind, an Israeli scholar,[br]has done incredible work

0:47:21.970,0:47:23.769
on the responsibility[br]of universities.

0:47:23.770,0:47:27.938
As such, Israeli universities[br]explaining why it's wrong

0:47:27.950,0:47:32.458
today, in 2025, to maintain[br]partnership with Israeli

0:47:32.470,0:47:36.958
universities who are part[br]of Israel's infrastructure,

0:47:36.970,0:47:41.499
military and surveillance[br]and oppression infrastructure

0:47:41.510,0:47:42.899
vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

0:47:43.270,0:47:47.719
So not having ties, not[br]having relations, not having

0:47:47.730,0:47:51.159
partnerships, not sending[br]students to things that

0:47:51.170,0:47:55.239
have to do with the occupied[br]Palestinian territory should

0:47:55.250,0:47:59.239
be the minimum bearable for a[br]university to keep on calling

0:47:59.250,0:48:01.589
itself free, if freedom calls.

0:48:07.840,0:48:12.789
That, by the way, I really[br]object that the university

0:48:12.800,0:48:16.519
keeps on having the name free[br]after cancelling me and Eyal.

0:48:17.999,0:48:25.539
[Applause]

0:48:25.980,0:48:27.179
What can you do?

0:48:27.180,0:48:31.728
You should really try to[br]work as much as possible

0:48:31.740,0:48:34.499
in solidarity with others.

0:48:34.660,0:48:38.508
Because if one thing I've[br]learned by myself, is that

0:48:38.520,0:48:40.839
unity brings strength.

0:48:41.660,0:48:44.269
And I understand that[br]especially, I don't know

0:48:44.280,0:48:48.228
if this is unique to the[br]Palestine Solidarity Movement,

0:48:48.240,0:48:51.369
but there is a little bit of[br]snobbish attitude, to draw,

0:48:51.380,0:48:53.449
I agree with this, but[br]then it doesn't agree

0:48:53.460,0:48:54.699
with everything I say.

0:48:55.500,0:48:59.068
Can you be minimalist for[br]once and agree on a few points

0:48:59.080,0:49:01.909
like end the genocide, end[br]the occupation, and end

0:49:01.920,0:49:03.259
apartheid, and then,

0:49:03.514,0:49:10.784
[Applause]

0:49:10.890,0:49:14.719
let's say, because in time,[br]in south of Italy, I come from

0:49:14.730,0:49:18.338
a region of peasants, so we[br]have a very simple way of

0:49:18.350,0:49:23.219
understanding life in a way,[br]and say "in time of deluge,

0:49:23.230,0:49:24.489
all arms are needed".

0:49:24.490,0:49:28.318
And this is the thing, this[br]is a time of crisis, so all

0:49:28.330,0:49:31.418
brains are needed, all mouth[br]and eyes and ears are needed,

0:49:31.430,0:49:37.478
so let's just ally along the[br]lines of, there is a need

0:49:37.490,0:49:41.559
for a popular front around[br]human rights and justice,

0:49:41.570,0:49:43.929
because what's happening[br]in Palestine is

0:49:43.930,0:49:48.478
not staying in Palestine, nor[br]in Israel either, so it's,

0:49:48.490,0:49:50.119
I mean, yeah, it's the same.

0:49:50.119,0:49:55.318
And so this is why it's[br]necessary to try to explore

0:49:55.330,0:49:59.499
creatively what alliances[br]you might need, including

0:49:59.510,0:50:03.509
with universities outside[br]Germany, or with scholars.

0:50:03.670,0:50:06.436
There are a few scholars here,[br]but there are a few scholars

0:50:06.436,0:50:07.780
who have been speaking out.

0:50:07.780,0:50:11.699
I mean, to be honest, Eyal[br]and I, when former Freie

0:50:11.710,0:50:17.318
University invited us, it was[br]Freie University invited us,

0:50:17.330,0:50:20.969
We received an invitation[br]from Potsdam University.

0:50:21.290,0:50:25.239
I cannot ensure 100 % that the[br]event would have been, would

0:50:25.250,0:50:28.179
have not been cancelled, but[br]at least there was an attempt

0:50:28.190,0:50:29.369
and we couldn't make it.

0:50:29.550,0:50:31.709
But it was too much[br]short notice, sorry.

0:50:32.290,0:50:37.059
But again, this is where we[br]need to reach out to everyone

0:50:37.070,0:50:40.579
who's sensible enough, who[br]has a minimum of knowledge and

0:50:40.590,0:50:44.559
a minimum of decency, which[br]shouldn't be too much to ask,

0:50:44.570,0:50:48.858
so as to stand up against the[br]injustice that is spreading

0:50:48.870,0:50:50.190
in this country as well.

0:50:50.190,0:50:52.659
Thank you, Francesca, for[br]being here and for all the

0:50:52.670,0:50:55.199
work that you have been[br]doing for over the past year.

0:50:56.030,0:50:59.239
So, you touched a little bit[br]on this, and probably this is

0:50:59.250,0:51:02.898
going to be a controversial[br]question, but as a

0:51:02.910,0:51:06.679
Palestinian, all these, like,[br]international laws, human

0:51:06.690,0:51:10.699
rights, the UN, all of these[br]things, how we can trust

0:51:10.710,0:51:13.599
and, like, put our trust[br]in these concepts and

0:51:13.610,0:51:15.249
institutions, if they

0:51:15.250,0:51:19.499
fail to stop the genocide for[br]the past 16 months when all

0:51:19.510,0:51:24.079
the greater powers in the[br]world are not following or

0:51:24.090,0:51:29.758
like listening to or abiding[br]by all these laws, and also

0:51:29.770,0:51:33.499
with the veto right as well,[br]when five superpowers can

0:51:33.510,0:51:38.249
just veto any ceasefire[br]or any resolution?

0:51:38.810,0:51:41.559
I'm not going to answer that[br]question because the point

0:51:41.570,0:51:43.467
is not that you should[br]trust the system.

0:51:43.467,0:51:44.909
You shouldn't[br]trust the system.

0:51:45.390,0:51:51.169
You shouldn't expect the[br]system to give you anything.

0:51:51.750,0:51:54.398
Because again, what the[br]Palestinians have got

0:51:54.410,0:51:57.049
is something that the[br]Palestinians had to fight for.

0:51:57.690,0:52:00.609
And it's not that the[br]Palestinians are exceptional.

0:52:00.930,0:52:03.659
This epitomises[br]the struggle of any

0:52:03.670,0:52:05.089
minorities in this world.

0:52:06.110,0:52:10.818
And again, so you need really[br]to count on all possible

0:52:10.830,0:52:12.389
forces and alliances.

0:52:12.390,0:52:16.309
for example, not everything[br]in the United Nations is bad.

0:52:17.119,0:52:18.559
No one is saying that

0:52:19.410,0:52:20.170
Ah.

0:52:20.170,0:52:21.220
I'm joking.

0:52:21.220,0:52:22.010
No, no.

0:52:22.010,0:52:25.278
But I want to say, I want[br]to say that there have been

0:52:25.290,0:52:27.549
30 special rapporteurs.

0:52:27.630,0:52:31.429
Now you see me, but there has[br]been 30 special rapporteurs.

0:52:31.550,0:52:36.079
And while the struggle and the[br]attacks against me are known,

0:52:36.090,0:52:40.978
many others have not even[br]that visibility to complain

0:52:40.990,0:52:42.409
or to elicit solidarity.

0:52:42.410,0:52:46.239
So it's really about[br]supporting each other and from

0:52:46.250,0:52:49.709
the different walks of life[br]we come from, etc, etc.

0:52:49.870,0:52:54.278
So the thing is that there[br]is also some difficulty in

0:52:54.290,0:53:00.938
exploring how to build these[br]alliances, because we are more

0:53:00.950,0:53:02.669
fragile in these societies.

0:53:02.930,0:53:05.449
We are not, you see,[br]even grieving together.

0:53:05.590,0:53:08.898
Why my lectures have[br]become a place where

0:53:08.910,0:53:09.989
people come and cry?

0:53:09.990,0:53:13.458
Because in our societies,[br]there is no, we are not

0:53:13.470,0:53:17.049
afforded the luxury of[br]places for collective grief.

0:53:18.210,0:53:21.458
And where we can also talk[br]about what we have gone

0:53:21.470,0:53:26.179
through, we can check on each[br]other and have the courage to

0:53:26.190,0:53:29.298
look into each other's eyes[br]and say, it's okay, it's okay

0:53:29.310,0:53:32.758
to cry, it's okay to feel[br]crazy, it's okay to be scared

0:53:32.770,0:53:34.905
and to carry fear,

0:53:34.905,0:53:35.929
it's okay.

0:53:35.929,0:53:42.179
And even rage, and even[br]wanting to express oneself in

0:53:42.190,0:53:46.099
ways that are not necessarily[br]compliant with German or

0:53:46.110,0:53:49.059
even Italian standards,[br]it's okay to be enraged

0:53:49.070,0:53:50.029
against the system.

0:53:50.450,0:53:54.869
The point is that how do we[br]move beyond grief into action?

0:53:55.350,0:53:57.999
And this is where we need[br]to understand what it means,

0:53:58.010,0:54:02.009
I think, being in the line,[br]where everything is at risk.

0:54:02.010,0:54:05.358
I mean, and I know that now,[br]it's still, we have some

0:54:05.370,0:54:10.579
privilege in our works, but[br]if some of us start to lose

0:54:10.590,0:54:14.619
it just for exercising their[br]rights, we should all feel

0:54:14.630,0:54:18.349
worried, because sooner[br]or later it will hit us.

0:54:18.530,0:54:22.719
This is where we need to[br]build nets, safety nets,

0:54:22.730,0:54:23.669
to help each other.

0:54:25.210,0:54:27.599
We don't need, really,[br]we don't need to spend

0:54:27.610,0:54:28.929
that much in our life.

0:54:28.930,0:54:31.669
We can have times[br]of austerity.

0:54:31.870,0:54:36.298
We should afford austerity[br]in our own life and trust me,

0:54:36.310,0:54:40.659
if you see how my consumption[br]of clothes, my expenditure

0:54:40.670,0:54:43.619
for clothes has gone down[br]from two years ago to

0:54:43.630,0:54:45.789
now, you understand[br]what austerity means.

0:54:46.150,0:54:51.619
But in the sense we don't[br]need as much, so we can afford

0:54:51.630,0:54:54.209
less but also share more.

0:54:54.330,0:54:56.918
I know it sounds idealistic,[br]but this is where I have

0:54:56.930,0:54:59.989
I have more trust in these[br]than in what you said.

0:55:01.665,0:55:05.826
[Applause]

0:55:05.900,0:55:11.938
Also, also, apartheid[br]and racial segregation in

0:55:11.950,0:55:16.398
the United States and the[br]dictatorships from Chile,

0:55:16.410,0:55:20.159
Argentina, Chile, sorry,[br]Brazil, they didn't,

0:55:20.170,0:55:23.338
or colonialism, brutal[br]colonisation, although

0:55:23.350,0:55:26.019
colonialism is still[br]lingering, and this is the

0:55:26.030,0:55:28.539
opportunity to unpack it,[br]because if one thing about

0:55:28.550,0:55:32.069
Palestine, the genocide in[br]Palestine has brought to

0:55:32.070,0:55:34.438
the fore is what[br]settler colonialism and

0:55:34.450,0:55:35.729
colonialism still is.

0:55:35.870,0:55:38.679
So it has spoke to the bubble[br]of colonial amnesia that we

0:55:38.690,0:55:40.329
have grown into, many of us.

0:55:41.130,0:55:44.338
So again, let's take the[br]silver, let's look at the

0:55:44.350,0:55:46.549
silver lining out there.

0:55:46.990,0:55:48.789
This is a moment to do better.

0:55:50.240,0:55:53.439
We have to think together[br]and act together.

0:55:53.620,0:55:55.819
This is the only[br]thing I feel to say.

0:55:55.980,0:55:57.359
Hi, my name is Mark Barton.

0:55:57.359,0:55:58.619
I'm a composer and[br]professor in Germany.

0:55:58.900,0:56:03.309
My question is about press[br]freedom for Ms. Albanese and

0:56:03.320,0:56:06.008
the provisions that exist[br]under international law to

0:56:06.020,0:56:07.519
guarantee press freedom.

0:56:08.320,0:56:11.949
We saw in Israel's attacks in[br]Lebanon, we saw the ability

0:56:11.960,0:56:15.128
of journalists to respond[br]immediately to accusations,

0:56:15.140,0:56:17.899
for example, that hospitals[br]were being used by terrorists.

0:56:18.220,0:56:22.548
And we saw the role that[br]journalism can play in

0:56:22.560,0:56:26.519
debunking disinformation[br]in real time.

0:56:26.920,0:56:29.400
We don't see a lot of that[br]happening in the West Bank

0:56:29.400,0:56:32.839
right now, and right now[br]there's a ceasefire in Gaza.

0:56:32.940,0:56:35.400
We also don't see a lot of[br]international journalists

0:56:35.400,0:56:38.170
active, and I'm wondering if[br]there's anything international

0:56:38.170,0:56:39.790
law can do to force[br]that to happen.

0:56:39.790,0:56:43.068
When I think of what[br]journalists have done, and

0:56:43.080,0:56:46.668
you mentioned Lebanon, I mean,[br]it's even more shocking the

0:56:46.680,0:56:50.668
kind of double, I mean the[br]moral compass and the moral,

0:56:50.680,0:56:55.548
the double, the selective[br]attitude that has been used

0:56:55.560,0:56:58.819
after the Pager attack because[br]I don't know how it was in

0:56:58.820,0:57:01.490
Germany but in my own country[br]and other countries I saw

0:57:01.490,0:57:04.749
politicians and journalists[br]laughing about that and

0:57:04.760,0:57:08.339
commenting on how audacious[br]and genius it was.

0:57:08.339,0:57:10.527
[Wieland] Praising the[br]ingenuity of the attack.

0:57:10.527,0:57:14.088
But this is where I say the[br]entry point now where they're

0:57:14.100,0:57:17.008
rallying, I mean something[br]to fight because this is

0:57:17.020,0:57:19.259
the common enemy, is racism.

0:57:19.760,0:57:25.139
Racism it was, racism it is,[br]and racism continues to be.

0:57:27.570,0:57:32.159
And then was it, again,[br]I do not think that is

0:57:32.170,0:57:35.649
international law was not[br]able to stop genocide.

0:57:36.010,0:57:39.418
International law, it doesn't[br]have, I mean, doesn't have

0:57:39.430,0:57:43.938
hands to slap the face of[br]government officials who

0:57:43.950,0:57:46.469
pretend not to understand[br]what genocide is.

0:57:46.730,0:57:49.329
I'm not referring to anyone[br]in this country now, okay?

0:57:50.190,0:57:53.398
Seriously, I mean we have[br]enough bad politicians in my

0:57:53.410,0:58:00.519
own country and where even[br]the hypothesis of a two-state

0:58:00.530,0:58:04.619
solution now is dismantled by[br]the foreign minister because

0:58:04.630,0:58:07.818
Gaza's been turned into rubble[br]and the West Bank is too

0:58:07.830,0:58:09.858
small and I was saying,[br]are you suggesting

0:58:09.870,0:58:11.009
that the Palestinians

0:58:11.009,0:58:14.249
take over Israel just because[br]what remains is too little?

0:58:14.670,0:58:17.378
So this is the kind of[br]political discussions we have

0:58:17.390,0:58:21.739
today and we need to somewhat[br]talk to the intellectuals,

0:58:21.750,0:58:22.889
talk to the scholars.

0:58:23.070,0:58:25.659
This is also about the[br]constitutional order that

0:58:25.670,0:58:28.669
is being undermined, not[br]just international system.

0:58:29.230,0:58:31.760
International system has[br]rules, at the constitutional

0:58:31.760,0:58:32.730
level we have rules.

0:58:32.730,0:58:34.010
What's happening to them?

0:58:34.010,0:58:36.869
So again, back to you guys.

0:58:36.870,0:58:40.039
My question goes a bit in[br]line, like, seeing that the

0:58:40.050,0:58:44.059
current international law[br]has been unable for 16 months

0:58:44.070,0:58:48.639
to stop a genocide, I can't[br]believe I'm saying this, what

0:58:48.650,0:58:53.019
would, in your expert opinion,[br]be the ideal international

0:58:53.030,0:58:57.398
law system, functioning[br]system, who would draft

0:58:57.410,0:58:58.670
it, who would enforce it?

0:58:58.670,0:59:01.918
We know that this one, based[br]on the nation-state, with this

0:59:01.930,0:59:06.298
Security Council created by[br]the winning powers from World

0:59:06.310,0:59:08.989
War II with a veto power, et[br]cetera, is not functioning.

0:59:09.990,0:59:12.418
How would you, yeah,[br]what would be the

0:59:12.430,0:59:15.149
ideal international law[br]system in your view?

0:59:15.320,0:59:16.080
Thank you.

0:59:16.080,0:59:18.699
As I said before, apartheid[br]was not dismantled

0:59:18.710,0:59:19.669
by member states.

0:59:19.930,0:59:22.659
It was very late, when[br]it was unavoidable that

0:59:22.670,0:59:25.329
they started sanctioning[br]apartheid South Africa.

0:59:25.950,0:59:30.179
But really, we need to[br]learn from other movements

0:59:30.190,0:59:34.159
where resistance, peaceful[br]resistance, has organised at

0:59:34.170,0:59:39.039
a global level, admitting that[br]never before there had been

0:59:39.050,0:59:46.818
such a coalition of allies[br]at the international level

0:59:46.830,0:59:50.029
aiming to crush solidarity.

0:59:50.690,0:59:51.549
This is new.

0:59:51.770,0:59:54.999
But again, also the kind of[br]forces that we can mobilise

0:59:55.010,0:59:57.669
is new, because the[br]Global South is rising.

0:59:57.670,1:00:01.099
And I know that in our[br]eurocentric view of the world,

1:00:01.110,1:00:06.728
we only look at the depressed,[br]quite politically depressing

1:00:06.740,1:00:09.728
scenario we have, but there[br]are also member states who

1:00:09.740,1:00:11.269
are cutting ties with Israel.

1:00:11.560,1:00:14.230
There are member states, I[br]mean, I was joking today, but

1:00:14.230,1:00:17.349
I say in a few years, we will[br]keep on asking funds, seeking

1:00:17.360,1:00:22.108
funds to, I don't know, Arab[br]countries or the Global South

1:00:22.120,1:00:25.088
in order to protect our own[br]work in this part of the world,

1:00:25.100,1:00:26.246
the human rights work,

1:00:26.246,1:00:29.000
but it doesn't matter,[br]this will make us more equal.

1:00:29.000,1:00:31.370
So I also think that the[br]discourse should change

1:00:31.370,1:00:37.449
because of where the[br]United States is going is

1:00:37.460,1:00:38.919
a place of lawlessness.

1:00:40.020,1:00:42.829
This is the opportunity for[br]the international community

1:00:42.840,1:00:46.469
to step back, but it will[br]not happen automatically

1:00:46.480,1:00:50.769
because we are part of this[br]oligarchical order where it's

1:00:50.780,1:00:53.188
not about what the people[br]think, it's what about

1:00:53.200,1:00:57.208
capitalistic interests decide[br]and this is why I keep on

1:00:57.220,1:00:59.399
saying it's difficult and it's

1:00:59.400,1:01:02.369
difficult because it's a[br]struggle against the system

1:01:02.380,1:01:05.648
of which Palestine is a[br]system, not necessarily

1:01:05.660,1:01:07.609
the cause of all evil.

1:01:07.889,1:01:10.850
[Applause]

1:01:10.850,1:01:14.438
I would like to pose a[br]question concerning genocide,

1:01:14.450,1:01:17.278
which you said it's very[br]difficult to prove this mental

1:01:17.290,1:01:21.999
state of committing it, but[br]then we have another layer

1:01:22.010,1:01:26.438
and this is incitement, which[br]we've been witnessing here

1:01:26.450,1:01:31.599
in Germany from the very[br]beginning, October 7, 23,

1:01:31.610,1:01:34.189
how Palestinians, but in

1:01:34.190,1:01:36.539
all their layers of[br]life, together with their

1:01:36.550,1:01:38.929
children, are dehumanised.

1:01:39.430,1:01:44.798
We just need to read[br]Tagesschau or Bild, and if I

1:01:44.810,1:01:49.239
may read, or not to take time,[br]but this is a serious problem,

1:01:49.250,1:01:52.458
and then if I go back to[br]the history and the magazine

1:01:52.470,1:01:57.679
Sturmer and compare the[br]images, not that I'm

1:01:57.690,1:02:02.169
comparing, comparing, but[br]this historical flow of

1:02:02.170,1:02:03.629
dehumanising then.

1:02:04.150,1:02:05.839
I have no problem[br]with comparison.

1:02:05.850,1:02:10.719
Okay, but then I am now[br]careful, so because we

1:02:10.730,1:02:12.239
know what can happen.

1:02:12.390,1:02:16.139
But the processes of[br]dehumanisations do last, and

1:02:16.150,1:02:19.559
they tell us that genocide,[br]like for instance, in the

1:02:19.570,1:02:23.569
country where I am from,[br]Serbia, lasts for a long time.

1:02:23.570,1:02:27.219
So I, as someone from[br]Serbia, could also recognise

1:02:27.230,1:02:31.219
dehumanising images of[br]Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslims

1:02:31.230,1:02:36.099
and then Palestinians while[br]reading magazines, Bild, not

1:02:36.110,1:02:41.458
that I read Bild, but Bild,[br]Tagesschau, or even I will now

1:02:41.470,1:02:46.039
mention the January 19th and[br]the release of hostages, which

1:02:46.050,1:02:47.549
was really an important day,

1:02:47.710,1:02:51.169
and it is every time when[br]we celebrate freed lives.

1:02:51.170,1:02:53.909
but then also freed[br]lives from the prison.

1:02:54.550,1:02:59.199
And when we see how they are[br]represented as the groyalde

1:02:59.210,1:03:03.469
Menge, can you help[br]me translate this?

1:03:04.530,1:03:07.669
Screaming crowd, groyalde[br]or the schreiende.

1:03:08.150,1:03:12.318
So this is my question about[br]the incitement, also how

1:03:12.330,1:03:17.519
to organise ourselves to be[br]aware, to collect, to archive,

1:03:17.530,1:03:21.029
and also then to serve to the[br]legal cause in the future.

1:03:21.470,1:03:23.499
And thank you for[br]your patience.

1:03:23.499,1:03:29.434
[Applause]

1:03:29.690,1:03:32.778
Again, genocide is difficult[br]to prove because genocide

1:03:32.790,1:03:34.410
should be difficult to commit.

1:03:34.410,1:03:38.609
We should not confuse the[br]intent with the reasons.

1:03:38.830,1:03:42.559
I mean, because people say,[br]Israel, we cannot really say

1:03:42.570,1:03:46.739
that Israel wanted to destroy[br]Gaza, even if it has destroyed

1:03:46.750,1:03:50.739
Gaza, even if it has said,[br]there are Israeli leaders who

1:03:50.750,1:03:53.358
have ordered the destruction[br]of Gaza, and general

1:03:53.370,1:03:56.298
commanders who have,[br]in fact, ordered their

1:03:56.310,1:03:57.539
soldiers, so there has

1:03:57.539,1:04:01.258
been the order, the chain of[br]command effectively triggered,

1:04:01.270,1:04:03.129
bottom, sorry, top to bottom.

1:04:03.610,1:04:07.098
They say, yeah, but they were[br]also saying that Israel was

1:04:07.098,1:04:09.531
also saying that they want[br]to liberate the hostages

1:04:09.531,1:04:11.429
or destroy Hamas,[br]whatever it means.

1:04:12.330,1:04:16.858
And no, we shouldn't confuse[br]this because the reasons can

1:04:16.870,1:04:20.358
be many, but have really no[br]value in the determination

1:04:20.370,1:04:23.389
of intent, which is another[br]thing, it's the mindset.

1:04:23.690,1:04:28.258
When the mindset is[br]there to destroy, and the

1:04:28.270,1:04:32.338
genocide shouldn't even be[br]committed, the incitement

1:04:32.350,1:04:37.779
is sufficient to trigger the[br]responsibility to prevent.

1:04:38.170,1:04:42.079
And this is where, you know,[br]when the first person to talk

1:04:42.090,1:04:45.179
about genocide in the context[br]of what has happened in Gaza

1:04:45.190,1:04:49.559
was Raz Sigal, an Israeli[br]historian, who said, this is

1:04:49.570,1:04:51.469
a textbook case of genocide.

1:04:52.570,1:04:56.369
And ignorant as I was back[br]then, I said, oh, come on.

1:04:57.130,1:04:59.719
It's not a textbook case,[br]because as a good European, I

1:04:59.730,1:05:03.159
knew that the textbook case of[br]genocide, first, I mean, and

1:05:03.170,1:05:07.938
again, I had seen the failure[br]to prevent genocide in Rwanda

1:05:07.950,1:05:09.429
and in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

1:05:09.730,1:05:13.378
So my point was, if there are[br]no crematoria, if there are no

1:05:13.390,1:05:18.978
machetes, if there is no mass[br]killing, it's not genocide,

1:05:18.990,1:05:21.089
it's not true, it's not true.

1:05:21.210,1:05:26.019
And this is why genocide[br]has been a niche in legal

1:05:26.030,1:05:28.909
studies for a long time,[br]and it's no longer that.

1:05:29.070,1:05:32.999
I mean, really, Raz was right[br]when he said that this is a

1:05:33.010,1:05:36.139
textbook case of genocide,[br]because it's not just a

1:05:36.150,1:05:38.929
genocide, it's a settler[br]colonial genocide.

1:05:39.310,1:05:42.838
So the aim is ethnic[br]cleansing, because the aim

1:05:42.850,1:05:46.619
is to empty the land of[br]Palestinians, keep on

1:05:46.630,1:05:50.059
advancing Palestinian erasure[br]so that the land can be

1:05:50.070,1:05:52.599
taken, but also genocidal[br]acts are being committed

1:05:52.610,1:05:53.489
in the process.

1:05:53.950,1:05:55.869
And it's been said,[br]and it has been done.

1:05:55.970,1:05:58.670
So this is not a case where[br]there is no genocidal intent.

1:05:58.670,1:06:02.039
But Raz is also, I mean, I[br]remember that Raz has been

1:06:02.050,1:06:07.039
one of those scholars calling[br]me as early as February 2023,

1:06:07.050,1:06:10.079
saying, as I was writing[br]about the tension and

1:06:10.090,1:06:13.318
mass carcerality, mass[br]incarceration, and the

1:06:13.330,1:06:18.378
kind of, the systemic and[br]widespread the nature of

1:06:18.390,1:06:20.499
deprivation of liberty of[br]the Palestinians.

1:06:21.190,1:06:23.254
And he was saying, but[br]when are you going to

1:06:23.254,1:06:25.490
look into the genocide[br]against the Palestinians?

1:06:25.490,1:06:26.560
Imagine my reaction.

1:06:26.560,1:06:28.376
But I say, okay,[br]let's talk about that.

1:06:28.376,1:06:30.978
But then I've realised how[br]much he was right because as

1:06:30.990,1:06:35.258
a genocide scholar and someone[br]who has studied the Holocaust

1:06:35.270,1:06:38.219
and other cases of genocide,[br]he knows that there

1:06:38.230,1:06:39.529
are different steps.

1:06:39.530,1:06:42.679
That genocide is not an act,[br]it's a process, and it's

1:06:42.690,1:06:45.599
preceded by a number of[br]things, but there is one

1:06:45.610,1:06:49.659
element that is common,[br]common across all genocides,

1:06:49.670,1:06:52.458
and wouldn't be possible[br]if it was not widespread

1:06:52.470,1:06:53.549
among societies.

1:06:54.050,1:06:56.169
It's dehumanisation[br]of the other.

1:06:56.430,1:06:58.278
So that we do not[br]see the Palestinians

1:06:58.290,1:06:59.929
today as Palestinians.

1:07:00.950,1:07:05.999
And again, as a European, this[br]is me taking, please don't

1:07:06.010,1:07:09.838
applaud, don't nod, don't say[br]anything, hold your breath,

1:07:09.850,1:07:12.179
but I need to say that[br]because I wouldn't be

1:07:12.190,1:07:13.749
me if I didn't say that.

1:07:14.190,1:07:18.659
But as a European, as an[br]Italian, I know that the

1:07:18.670,1:07:22.159
genocide of the Jewish people[br]in this part of the world

1:07:22.170,1:07:25.818
would not have been possible[br]only for a few monsters

1:07:25.830,1:07:28.978
who had planned the[br]deportation, the trains,

1:07:28.990,1:07:31.669
the industrialisation, the[br]horror that has been done.

1:07:32.150,1:07:35.818
Jewish people in this part of[br]the world, before being sent

1:07:35.830,1:07:40.539
to concentration camps, have[br]died out of starvation and

1:07:40.550,1:07:45.869
lack of hygiene in ghettos[br]where they had been locked up.

1:07:46.830,1:07:49.838
We know that the[br]discrimination started, the

1:07:49.850,1:07:53.179
dehumanisation had already[br]started when it was possible

1:07:53.190,1:07:56.054
to kick out of their[br]professions,

1:07:56.054,1:07:58.849
people because they were Jewish.

1:08:00.410,1:08:06.719
Either we do realise that[br]racism was the root cause

1:08:06.730,1:08:10.898
for the genocide of the Jews,[br]the Roma, and Sinti, and it's

1:08:10.910,1:08:15.179
ingrained in who we are as[br]European, I'm sorry, but 500

1:08:15.190,1:08:19.358
years of colonialism have[br]been predicated upon the idea

1:08:19.370,1:08:23.188
of a superior race, white,[br]male, Christian, and

1:08:23.189,1:08:25.000
it's patriarchy.

1:08:25.000,1:08:25.800
[Applause]

1:08:25.800,1:08:26.900
Either we deal with it,

1:08:26.900,1:08:27.930
No...

1:08:27.930,1:08:30.710
[Applause]

1:08:30.710,1:08:32.489
it's my responsibility, because

1:08:32.500,1:08:36.019
then it's here, I understand[br]that you cannot talk.

1:08:36.020,1:08:39.459
I mean, I'm not making[br]comparison, for God's sake.

1:08:40.560,1:08:41.978
But also, it's history.

1:08:42.720,1:08:45.278
And Germany has[br]committed two genocides.

1:08:45.500,1:08:47.989
Please don't applaud,[br]because there is nothing

1:08:48.000,1:08:49.419
to applaud to this.

1:08:49.819,1:08:52.398
Germany has committed[br]two genocides in history.

1:08:53.024,1:08:55.560
[Inaudible]

1:08:55.560,1:08:56.309
Oops.

1:08:56.620,1:08:58.419
Okay, that's fine.

1:08:58.880,1:09:00.489
Two are bad enough.

1:09:00.840,1:09:04.778
And again, why can't[br]we talk about that?

1:09:05.760,1:09:08.568
Are the Nama and Herero less human?

1:09:09.109,1:09:11.739
Do they deserve less[br]acknowledgment, do they

1:09:11.750,1:09:13.959
deserve less memory,[br]do they deserve less

1:09:13.970,1:09:15.319
reparations?

1:09:15.410,1:09:19.259
And again, and another thing, and so[br]me saying that, probably

1:09:19.270,1:09:21.898
you should say that, the[br]State of Israel doesn't

1:09:21.910,1:09:24.769
represent all the Jewish[br]people in the world.

1:09:24.910,1:09:27.449
Otherwise, I wouldn't[br]understand why you invite me

1:09:27.449,1:09:29.880
and sit with me today, and[br]so many, I mean, wherever

1:09:29.880,1:09:32.419
I go, I'm invited by Jewish[br]people first and foremost.

1:09:32.419,1:09:34.489
We need to have the[br]courage to say that.

1:09:35.330,1:09:38.369
I do not expect every[br]one of you to say that.

1:09:38.370,1:09:41.678
But those of you who have[br]an inch of privilege in this

1:09:41.689,1:09:46.739
country, university professors[br]with tenure, Jewish people

1:09:46.750,1:09:50.318
first and foremost, we need[br]to say that it's not in our

1:09:50.330,1:09:53.299
name that this can be carried[br]out because we have not

1:09:53.310,1:09:55.669
been able to prevent the[br]genocide of the Tutsi,

1:09:55.750,1:09:57.999
we have not been able to[br]prevent the genocide of

1:09:58.010,1:10:04.469
the Yazidi, or the Rohingya[br]in Myanmar, or in Bosnia.

1:10:04.470,1:10:07.999
However, however, I really[br]want this to be the last

1:10:08.010,1:10:09.349
genocide of human history.

1:10:09.550,1:10:12.169
And it's not going to[br]happen until it's stopped.

1:10:12.470,1:10:14.058
In order for this [br]to be stopped,

1:10:14.058,1:10:16.110
it needs to be [br]understood and recognised.

1:10:16.110,1:10:17.240
[Wieland] Absolutely.

1:10:17.240,1:10:18.750
Thank you very much.

1:10:18.750,1:10:21.839
A perfect point to end, even[br]if, obviously, many of us

1:10:21.850,1:10:23.109
would like to continue.

1:10:23.310,1:10:28.819
But there are still further[br]parts of this program, which,

1:10:28.830,1:10:32.459
somewhat amazingly, has been[br]allowed to proceed this far.

1:10:32.510,1:10:34.849
So let's see if we[br]make it to the end.

1:10:34.990,1:10:37.839
Yes, so thank you again,[br]Francesca Albanese.

1:10:38.033,1:10:41.000
[Applause]