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[Francesca] Just to make sure 
we are safe,

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can you confirm that police
is here to protect all of us?

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[Crowd cheers]

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Good!

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[Crowd cheers]

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[Wieland] So I have the great
pleasure of welcoming

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Francesca Albanese

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[Crowd cheers]

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United Nations Special Rapporteur

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for Human Rights in the 
Occupied Palestinian territories.

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Before I hand over to
Francesca for some preliminary

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remarks I would just like to
inform everyone that

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at the last update

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that I received, we had 1 ,700 
people viewing the live stream.

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[Crowd cheers]

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So this this may be a small
room, but the virtual space

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we are occupying
is a large one.

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So without further ado,

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Francesca please speak to us.

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[Crowd cheers]

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[Francesca] You're not police, right?

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[Crowd laughs]

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Camouflaging okay.

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So I have to admit that about 75

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hours in this country have
made me pretty nervous.

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I can't wait to go back to
peaceful Tunisia

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[Crowd cheers]

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because the situation is bad

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for freedom
of expression pretty much

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everywhere and still I've
never felt this sense of

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lacking oxygen as I do here.

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So please, please, I know
they're very happy to see me.

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Make sense.

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Yes, but I'm someone who speaks

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of genocide and there is a
genocide ongoing

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and doesn't matter how much
genocide denialism there is,

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we need to be really
aware, aware of

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what we need to do all
together because I really want

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to be heard loud and clear
before we start talking about

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what I came to know the most,
genocide, this year.

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I want to say a few things on which I
absolutely don't want to be

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taken wrong and misquoted,

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but of course I
will be misquoted!

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So it is a great pleasure for
me to be with you today

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and I wish to thank DiEM, A Jewish
Voice for a Just Peace in the

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Middle East, Eye on Palestine
and Gaza Committee

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for their immense work,

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[Crowd cheers]

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Stop it!

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[Crowd laughs]

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for their immense work

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in bringing this 
meeting together

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and for inviting me
to be here in Berlin.

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I'm sure you have the
gratitude of so many for

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creating this platform for
many to come together to speak

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on one of the most urgent
issues of our time.

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Without your courage and
dedication, we would not be

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here today, although, although,
for the venue we must thank

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Junge Welt who has given the
event last-minute asylum

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and of course,

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[Crowd cheers]

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You are unruly!

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and of course,
we have to also

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acknowledge the Israeli
ambassador, pro-Israel

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groups and professional
smearers in Germany,

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a number of German politicians
including the city mayor,

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Berlin police without whose
relentless work and pressure and

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intimidation we would be in
another, much bigger venue.

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I know how you feel.

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I feel it, too, somewhat, even
though the intimidation has

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gotten on my nerves, but
not yet under my skin.

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And with German authorities'
permission, I plan to return,

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as I said, to the safety
of my home in Tunisia

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before this changes.

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We should not fear words.

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We shall fear crimes.

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Those that commit them,
and those who deny them.

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And as we proceed, I must
acknowledge that some of

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the words I will speak
today might be heavy.

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I recognise that many of you
carry significant pain,

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and it is with this awareness that
I ask for your patience and

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understanding as we explore
these difficult subjects.

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Please know that my intention
is not to add to that pain,

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but to bring light, healing, and
perhaps a sense of solidarity

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as we move forward together.

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As you are all aware,
my presence in Germany

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these few days has been
controversial for many.

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Universities, the beacon of
free speech, the cradle of

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free debate, where people
can also disagree, right?

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have cancelled events where I
was supposed to give talks or

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lectures without any warning,
let alone an apology.

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That's rude.

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The organisers in many cases
have had to switch venues

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at the last minute, facing
threats, condemnation and

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harassment on the street
and online, hopefully not on site

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as if I were someone
advocating for hate or someone

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wanted by the International
Criminal Court for war crimes

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and crimes against humanity.

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Instead, I'm just a legal
expert appointed by the

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United Nations to document
and report on the violations

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committed by Israel.

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This is what the resolution
creating my mandate says,

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even if I also document the
violations committed by Hamas

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and the Palestinian Authority.

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I'm the eighth special
rapporteur to do this after

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illustrious jurists such as
John Duggar, Richard Folk, and

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Michael Link, and the first
woman to serve in this

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position after 33 years.

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It is in this capacity...

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This is where you applaud.

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[Audience laughs and applauds.]

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I really want to chill a
little bit because it's heavy.

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It is in this capacity
that I came to Berlin.

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I arrived here.

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This is something I'm saying
just to remind everyone that

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I came as a special rapporteur,
still representing

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the United Nations, if there
is an inch of respect

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for this institution that
is left in this country.

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I arrived here after traveling
across Northern Europe and

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being generally welcomed,
even where pro-Israel groups

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succeeded to have some cave
in to their pressure and

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mafia-style techniques.

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And I'm shocked to see how
absurd the world that we

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live in has become, where
impartiality to the facts

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and the requirements of
international law generate

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more controversy than
the killing, maiming,

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torturing, raping,
starving, burning alive,

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and entire people as such

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for 16 months and counting,

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and yet, this is the world we live in.

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But so, before getting
into the debate,

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what is impartiality and
what does it mean?

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What is it not?

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Because this is something
that I would like you to carry

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with you after this
wonderful afternoon together.

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Impartiality for human rights
defenders, investigators and

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monitors like myself entails
an obligation to investigate

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and establish the facts
objectively,

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studying everything that is brought
to our knowledge against

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applicable international law.

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Once the assessment is
done, my job is not to be

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equidistant from the parties,
whatever it is,

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but to insist on measures to restore
legality, to undo injustice

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and prevent further abuses.

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In the case of Palestine, it
is overwhelmingly documented

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that Israel commits
intentionally, and as a matter

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of state policy, the gravest
human rights offenses,

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as part of its long-standing
plan to maintain control over

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what Israeli human rights
organisation B'Tselem has

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called, quote: 'A regime of 
Jewish supremacy

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from the Jordan River to
the Mediterranean Sea.'

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[Crowd laughs]

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Full stop, end of quote.

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Impartiality cannot be
used as a pompous name

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for indifference and an
elegant name for ignorance.

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Impartiality is not about
maintaining the pretense of

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both sides in the face of
international atrocities,

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of maintaining, as I was saying,
an equidistant position

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between conflicting parties,
even when their positions

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are structurally and
historically unequal.

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When one side occupies,
depredates, and oppresses,

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and the other is being occupied,
depredated, and dispossessed,

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this is a recipe for
disaster and violence.

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impartiality is
not neutrality.

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Neutrality meaning maintaining
an equidistant position

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between conflicting parties
even when their positions

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might not be equal and usually
to deliver life-saving aid.

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It's not my mandate and not
even that of universities

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and not even that
of your politicians.

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Our job is not to stay
neutral, our job is to stay

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truthful to international law.

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This is what all of
us have in common.

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And I stand firmly on
universal human rights

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of respect for life
and human dignity.

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And whenever it is the case
that a state is being allowed

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with impunity to violate these
rights, I must speak up, firmly,

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on the side of the oppressed.

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If those who found my
presence tonight controversial

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could understand this basic
principle, the difference

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between impartiality and
neutrality, perhaps there

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would be far less controversy
in the first place,

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and of course, there should be
understanding and condemnation

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for what has happened to
Israeli civilians during

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the brutal attack that

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Hamas and other Palestinian
armed groups carried out on

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October 7, 2023, as there
should be understanding

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and condemnation for
the massacres, violence,

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and oppression that the
Palestinians have experienced

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since the Nakba 
and before the Nakba,

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resistance and opposition to
which has certainly

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not spared the Israelis.

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But here we are in an era
where speaking out on human

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rights has become a hateful
act or even a crime where

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truth is a lie and lies the
truth that is used to justify this.

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I mean, I don't see
anyone but I was prepared

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to see more police.

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Orwell's famous proclamation that:
'War is peace, freedom is slavery,

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ignorance is strength'
and that quote has never

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been more true than in
the discourse surrounding

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Israel and Palestine.

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This brings me to the elephant
in the room, the genocide that

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Israel has been allowed to
commit after 56 years of

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unlawful occupation of
Palestine and 77 years since

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the mass ethnic cleansing
of the Nakba began.

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00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:04,709
An event that was in ways
irrefamiliar in the present

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00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,269
day carried out amid
massacres and destructions

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00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,169
that have been recounted by
its victims, Nakba survivors,

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but also recorded in
the testimonies of its

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perpetrators in some instances
or documented in Israeli

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archives and brought to
light by diligent and

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00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:24,789
honest Israeli historians, an
architect who were able to

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00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,489
access those archives for
a brief period of time

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some 30 years ago.

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00:11:28,769 --> 00:11:30,970
For even the most
sophisticated and experienced

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00:11:30,970 --> 00:11:33,789
practitioners of doublespeak,
this truth is no longer

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00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:34,919
possible to deny.

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00:11:34,940 --> 00:11:38,269
I just want to point to one
thing and then we move into

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00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:39,779
the discussion regarding,

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00:11:40,190 --> 00:11:43,520
I mean, the topic 
of today, genocide.

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In July 2024, the
International Court of Justice

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00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:50,809
has recognised beyond any
reasonable doubt that

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00:11:50,820 --> 00:11:53,239
the occupation that Israel
maintained in Gaza,

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00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,980
the West Bank, and East Jerusalem
is unlawful

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and must be relinquished totally
and unconditionally.

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The troops, the military
barracks, the military

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00:12:01,860 --> 00:12:03,909
presence, but also
the civilian presence,

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00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,239
all the settlements
must be dismantled.

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00:12:06,660 --> 00:12:09,629
Which doesn't mean that
there will be an uprooting

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00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:14,549
of all Jewish people living
in the occupied Palestinian

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territory, but the land is to
be returned to their owners.

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and perhaps the Jewish
Israelis who are there may

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want to rent instead of
stealing and living as

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Palestinians if there
is a Palestinian state.

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00:12:26,652 --> 00:12:29,935
[Crowd cheers]

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And this is not even new.

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00:12:32,260 --> 00:12:33,899
This is not even new.

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Everyone knew that the
occupation was unlawful and

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not just for violations of
international law here and

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00:12:40,180 --> 00:12:43,889
there, because Israel kidnapped
children and adults including

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in the middle of the night
and and put them in jail

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00:12:46,380 --> 00:12:51,949
for days, weeks, months, and
years until they confessed

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00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:53,889
crimes that they had not committed.

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00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,849
And not just because of
torturing, demolishing homes,

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00:12:58,860 --> 00:13:02,219
killing people arbitrarily,
no, not because of that.

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00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,089
The occupation is unlawful
because by its very presence

246
00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:08,149
it prevents the 
Palestinians from enjoying

247
00:13:08,170 --> 00:13:11,775
the right of self-determination, 
the right to exist as a people,

248
00:13:11,830 --> 00:13:16,039
free to determine themselves as a
people, which is still being contested

249
00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:19,859
and it shouldn't be confused
with a two-state solution.

250
00:13:20,380 --> 00:13:24,049
Because this is the political
consensus that has formed

251
00:13:24,060 --> 00:13:27,758
so that the Palestinians have the
right, exclusive rights

252
00:13:27,830 --> 00:13:31,479
to a state, independent state
in the land that remains.

253
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,989
But nonetheless, any other
rights lose meanings and

254
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,169
becomes an exercise of
intellectual rhetoric

255
00:13:38,180 --> 00:13:40,149
without the right of
self-determination.

256
00:13:40,169 --> 00:13:42,909
So in the face of this
groundbreaking advisory

257
00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,499
opinion which has confirmed
what everyone knew,

258
00:13:45,540 --> 00:13:48,179
it is the obligation not only of the
German government,

259
00:13:48,220 --> 00:13:51,691
but every German person, 
including those having businesses,

260
00:13:51,780 --> 00:13:55,369
living in the settlements, 
working as soldiers in the Israeli

261
00:13:55,380 --> 00:13:58,279
occupation forces, 
not to do that anymore.

262
00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,184
Otherwise, they might
face consequences.

263
00:14:01,660 --> 00:14:03,259
And this is where
we are today.

264
00:14:03,260 --> 00:14:06,809
Instead of working on this
and seeing how to abide by

265
00:14:06,820 --> 00:14:11,018
this incredibly important
advisory opinion,

266
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,349
the government of this country
continues to repress

267
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,600
the critical voices that
ask for accountability.

268
00:14:19,877 --> 00:14:31,438
[Applause]

269
00:14:31,620 --> 00:14:34,939
[Wieland] Thank you very much for
those preliminary remarks.

270
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,189
No doubt we'll get
back to some of those

271
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,099
points again later.

272
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:44,389
But what I wanted to ask you
about, and well, this is the

273
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,262
title of this part of the
program:

274
00:14:47,620 --> 00:14:51,179
International Law in the 
Face of the Gaza Genocide.

275
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,129
And something that's often
been spoken about over the

276
00:14:55,140 --> 00:15:00,849
last 16 months by yourself and
by many actors of all sorts,

277
00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:05,422
legal experts, civil society
figures, activists,

278
00:15:06,980 --> 00:15:11,709
is that the very concept of
international law has been

279
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,469
under attack because the
genocide has been allowed to

280
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,479
take place and measures that

281
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:25,109
have been set in motion
to stop it have also not

282
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,423
achieved that result.

283
00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:30,409
The world has let it
happen and many feel that

284
00:15:30,420 --> 00:15:39,619
international law has become
impotent and even though in

285
00:15:39,630 --> 00:15:44,779
the decades since the United
Nations were founded and

286
00:15:44,790 --> 00:15:47,399
we had the establishment
of the Geneva Conventions

287
00:15:47,410 --> 00:15:50,190
and the various pillars of
international law were built up,

288
00:15:50,190 --> 00:15:52,375
of course this is not
the first time

289
00:15:52,375 --> 00:15:55,719
that a power
allied with the so-called West

290
00:15:55,730 --> 00:16:00,359
has chosen not to abide by
international law and recent

291
00:16:00,359 --> 00:16:03,030
decades have seen many other
cases, the invasion of Iraq,

292
00:16:03,030 --> 00:16:04,613
Afghanistan, Libya, etc.

293
00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:08,309
So, how is the situation
different now?

294
00:16:09,790 --> 00:16:13,779
What additional or greater
damage has been done to

295
00:16:13,790 --> 00:16:17,339
international law and how
does one continue to work with

296
00:16:17,350 --> 00:16:22,111
the standard of international
law from now on?

297
00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:27,989
[Francesca] First of all, let me clarify
a couple of things and then we

298
00:16:27,989 --> 00:16:30,620
will have the opportunity to
talk about what constitutes

299
00:16:30,620 --> 00:16:32,659
genocide because
there seems to be much

300
00:16:32,670 --> 00:16:34,241
confusion in this country.

301
00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:38,149
So should I say that now or
can we get back to this later?

302
00:16:38,149 --> 00:16:40,346
[Wieland] I think we can 
get back to it later.

303
00:16:40,376 --> 00:16:42,672
[Francesca] Perfect, as long
as you say that.

304
00:16:43,230 --> 00:16:47,300
And so, international law
is a set of norms

305
00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:49,280
that member states have agreed upon,

306
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,259
either through treaties

307
00:16:52,290 --> 00:16:55,939
or that they have developed
as customs, as practice,

308
00:16:55,950 --> 00:16:59,859
believed to be compliant
with general principles

309
00:16:59,870 --> 00:17:01,559
of law and humanity.

310
00:17:02,070 --> 00:17:05,864
So what constitutes
international law

311
00:17:05,864 --> 00:17:11,659
is a normative framework intended
to prevent violations

312
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,068
and to correct violations.

313
00:17:13,230 --> 00:17:15,879
So it's a normative and
remedial, it has a normative

314
00:17:15,890 --> 00:17:17,678
and remedial function.

315
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,348
Aside of it but complementary
is the system that is there to

316
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:29,109
regulate the conduct of states
and so it's the multilateral

317
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:35,238
order which is to be regulated
by international norms.

318
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,689
So while international law has
been selectively applied,

319
00:17:40,860 --> 00:17:49,629
more or less systemically violated,
today we see the depth of it

320
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,359
and we see the system
behind it, I believe.

321
00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:56,536
In the sense that it's clear
that the system has never,

322
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,549
I mean, the multilateral order,
the General Assembly,

323
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,579
which is now more democratic than
it was 77 years ago, for example.

324
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,489
When the United Nations system
was created, it was made

325
00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:14,219
of about 50, 53 states, and
now it's made of 193 states.

326
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:16,439
So clearly, it has changed.

327
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,219
but the center of power,
it has not changed.

328
00:18:20,660 --> 00:18:27,859
The system that was birthed
as dominated by the colonial world

329
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:30,509
like Europe and
European offsprings,

330
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:37,234
like Australia, New Zealand, the
United States and Canada,

331
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,809
and of course, the first colonies,
the first settler colonial

332
00:18:40,820 --> 00:18:44,069
realities where so many
genocides had been committed,

333
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,319
Latin America, Central
and Latin America, sorry,

334
00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:48,599
Latin America.

335
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,969
I mean, these were also
part of the system,

336
00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:54,109
but the center of power
was with the West,

337
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,395
what we would call today improperly: 
West, and remains there.

338
00:18:57,420 --> 00:19:02,019
So I think that the phase
we live in has exposed how

339
00:19:02,650 --> 00:19:09,719
unequal the system is,
how it cannot serve as is the

340
00:19:09,730 --> 00:19:13,039
interest of everyone in
the face of a

341
00:19:16,220 --> 00:19:23,949
fundamentally now a unipolar order, 
where the United States dictates

342
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,119
pretty much what is to
be done and what's not,

343
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,279
regardless or even blatantly
against international law.

344
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,359
So we are at a critical point,
and the system is breaking.

345
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:40,152
When we international human 
rights experts have said for years,

346
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:42,709
especially this mandate,
it's 20 years that

347
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,749
whomever has held this mandate
has said over and over,

348
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:46,959
the system is breaking.

349
00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:49,769
The Occupied Palestinian
Territory is a powder keg

350
00:19:49,780 --> 00:19:52,829
and it will explode and will take
all the system with it because

351
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,969
it's a settler colonial
frontier, more violent

352
00:19:55,980 --> 00:19:56,920
than any other.

353
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,599
It's not the only form of
colonial domination,

354
00:20:00,740 --> 00:20:06,309
but it's an active settler colony 
where people are really struggling

355
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,879
for what settler colonialism
is in its more brutal form.

356
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,609
One people taking control
of land, of resources,

357
00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:14,819
pushing other people out.

358
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,669
Again, and it's the only one
actively, actively militarily,

359
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,529
politically, financially
supported and enabled

360
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:24,569
by Western countries.

361
00:20:24,790 --> 00:20:30,099
So this is the breaking point
because there are many people

362
00:20:30,110 --> 00:20:32,659
who identify themselves
with injustice that the

363
00:20:32,670 --> 00:20:34,801
Palestinians have suffered.

364
00:20:35,030 --> 00:20:37,459
There are many people who
for the first time realise

365
00:20:37,470 --> 00:20:41,839
and there is a global
awareness about this

366
00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:44,159
and dissatisfaction.

367
00:20:44,430 --> 00:20:48,459
We see in the fragility and
how lonely the Palestinians

368
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:54,799
are in the face of all these
powers, our own fragility,

369
00:20:54,810 --> 00:20:57,619
and this is why so many
stand in solidarity

370
00:20:57,630 --> 00:20:59,139
with the Palestinians.

371
00:20:59,170 --> 00:21:01,349
On top of the fact that it's a
simple empathy,

372
00:21:01,370 --> 00:21:04,820
the fact that what happens to other 
human beings touches us and doesn't

373
00:21:04,820 --> 00:21:07,979
I mean the fact of seeing
bodies of children

374
00:21:07,990 --> 00:21:12,979
hanging from the wall
or turned into smithereens

375
00:21:12,990 --> 00:21:15,779
whatever they are, incinerated
in refugee camps

376
00:21:15,910 --> 00:21:19,899
or in tents, plastic tents if not
buried under the rubble.

377
00:21:19,910 --> 00:21:23,755
I mean this is something that doesn't
make many people sleep at night

378
00:21:23,860 --> 00:21:26,669
and it's normal, it's a
good sign, it's healthy

379
00:21:27,128 --> 00:21:32,109
and we shouldn't become idle
in the face of this pain.

380
00:21:32,220 --> 00:21:33,789
Yeah, so we need to decide.

381
00:21:33,970 --> 00:21:36,599
Now it's the time, we
are at the turning point

382
00:21:36,610 --> 00:21:37,730
and we need to decide.

383
00:21:37,730 --> 00:21:41,159
The system, of course,
will become uglier and more

384
00:21:41,170 --> 00:21:43,839
resistant and more fierceful,
but because the system

385
00:21:43,850 --> 00:21:45,040
is being challenged.

386
00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:50,089
The system of which Israel's
abuses are a symptom.

387
00:21:51,170 --> 00:21:53,659
And not, yeah, are a symptom.

388
00:21:54,850 --> 00:21:58,599
So this should be a wake
up call for all of us

389
00:21:58,610 --> 00:22:00,279
people of conscience.

390
00:22:00,910 --> 00:22:04,529
I often say a bit rhetorically
but I somewhat believe it.

391
00:22:04,690 --> 00:22:08,399
I mean in the sense it's not
the case that the UN Charter

392
00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:11,979
is not just about states'
obligations but it says:

393
00:22:11,990 --> 00:22:15,039
'we the people' because ultimately,
it's we the people who

394
00:22:15,050 --> 00:22:18,159
are the guardians of
these values, these norms.

395
00:22:18,220 --> 00:22:20,899
Human rights, I mean, I know
that people complain a lot

396
00:22:20,910 --> 00:22:23,204
about international law:
'It serves no purpose.'

397
00:22:23,530 --> 00:22:25,679
Yeah, because you are
not the ones who had to

398
00:22:25,690 --> 00:22:27,324
struggle to abolish slavery.

399
00:22:27,570 --> 00:22:30,159
You're not the ones who had
to struggle to have women's

400
00:22:30,170 --> 00:22:32,779
rights recognised, even
if I admit we still have

401
00:22:32,790 --> 00:22:33,919
a lot of work to do.

402
00:22:34,030 --> 00:22:38,919
But so, there have been so many
struggles that have led to

403
00:22:38,930 --> 00:22:42,009
the development of human
rights the way they are.

404
00:22:42,170 --> 00:22:46,719
So while we tend to see
human rights as a tool of

405
00:22:46,730 --> 00:22:49,619
emancipation and that it's
failing, I want to also

406
00:22:49,630 --> 00:22:53,303
remind you, if you take a step
back and look at the arc of history

407
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:56,679
that these human
rights are first and foremost

408
00:22:56,690 --> 00:23:00,099
the result of someone else's 
struggle for emancipation.

409
00:23:00,270 --> 00:23:04,479
And we have grown just too
lazy in this part of the world

410
00:23:04,490 --> 00:23:07,250
because you see the Palestinians, 
like many other people,

411
00:23:07,250 --> 00:23:09,110
they don't even have 
the time to think:

412
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:10,639
shall I fight or not?

413
00:23:10,910 --> 00:23:12,449
Fight peacefully.

414
00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:15,029
I mean, because many
people have no choice.

415
00:23:15,030 --> 00:23:17,719
If you have the choice,
it means that you have

416
00:23:17,730 --> 00:23:20,069
privilege, that you
have chosen not to use.

417
00:23:20,490 --> 00:23:22,306
And it's your choice,
but trust me,

418
00:23:22,360 --> 00:23:24,089
everything is in line right now.

419
00:23:24,089 --> 00:23:24,789
It's coming.

420
00:23:24,790 --> 00:23:29,873
The way repression works
in this country is scary,

421
00:23:30,210 --> 00:23:33,789
should really, should scare
the hell out of people.

422
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,609
And the fact that you don't...

423
00:23:35,630 --> 00:23:36,934
Thank you.

424
00:23:37,324 --> 00:23:38,316
[Inaudible]

425
00:23:38,646 --> 00:23:41,009
[Audience claps]

426
00:23:41,330 --> 00:23:45,339
No, and the fact that
people don't register

427
00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:46,689
how serious it is.

428
00:23:46,690 --> 00:23:52,799
The fact that media continue
to be as pathetic as they are.

429
00:23:52,810 --> 00:23:55,319
Again, it's something that,
I don't know,

430
00:23:55,330 --> 00:23:58,349
I'll try to help by continuing to
tell what I've seen here.

431
00:23:58,570 --> 00:24:02,419
But again, I've been in many
countries, including countries

432
00:24:02,430 --> 00:24:05,979
that are lectured by Germany
about freedom of

433
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:07,654
- freedom of oppression -

434
00:24:07,814 --> 00:24:11,459
[Audience laughs]

435
00:24:11,459 --> 00:24:12,200
Sorry.

436
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,960
[Weiland] Appropriate 
choice of word.

437
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:15,934
[Francesca] No, freedom
of expression and

438
00:24:15,934 --> 00:24:16,859
[Audience laughs]

439
00:24:16,859 --> 00:24:17,649
freedom of...

440
00:24:17,659 --> 00:24:19,809
It was not even
the worst that came out,

441
00:24:20,180 --> 00:24:23,050
the worst lapses that came
out of my mouth today.

442
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,189
However, freedom of expression
and freedom of assembly,

443
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,569
I mean, countries that have been
lectured by Germany about how

444
00:24:30,580 --> 00:24:33,789
important these rights are
and who are really struggling

445
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,456
to guarantee these rights.

446
00:24:35,456 --> 00:24:38,141
I mean, don't want to guarantee
these rights to citizens,

447
00:24:38,141 --> 00:24:39,820
don't even make a
mystery out of it.

448
00:24:39,820 --> 00:24:47,048
And still, I've experienced
much less intimidation

449
00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:49,574
and fear than here.

450
00:24:49,784 --> 00:24:52,039
So I again, I'm with you

451
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,124
and yeah, let's brace for
what happens next.

452
00:24:57,355 --> 00:25:02,515
[Appause]

453
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,249
[Weiland] What I want to get out a bit
because I think this is also

454
00:25:06,260 --> 00:25:08,969
something that really many
people in the world have been

455
00:25:08,980 --> 00:25:13,879
asking themselves or
asking other people is:

456
00:25:15,340 --> 00:25:19,889
if international law wasn't
able to prevent this genocide,

457
00:25:20,670 --> 00:25:25,049
if there were not the
necessary mechanisms

458
00:25:25,060 --> 00:25:26,525
of enforcement

459
00:25:26,655 --> 00:25:29,729
really to stop the people
who are committing it,

460
00:25:32,740 --> 00:25:34,954
what does it still offer?

461
00:25:35,344 --> 00:25:37,179
[Francesca] Yeah,
so as I was saying,

462
00:25:37,230 --> 00:25:39,991
there has been a phase where 
human rights protection

463
00:25:39,991 --> 00:25:42,105
of individual rights was not there.

464
00:25:42,105 --> 00:25:44,669
We are lucky because
we have those rights.

465
00:25:44,752 --> 00:25:47,800
Those rights also allow 
us to keep some sanity

466
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,719
and saying this is 
completely wrong.

467
00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:51,344
Now, there are the standards,

468
00:25:51,344 --> 00:25:53,390
there are the law 
enforcement mechanisms

469
00:25:53,390 --> 00:25:57,649
that in many respects have
never worked for Palestine.

470
00:25:57,910 --> 00:26:01,009
Palestine has always been
the big exception

471
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,049
and for a number of reasons.

472
00:26:04,049 --> 00:26:08,450
We don't need to unpack all
the problems of the world now.

473
00:26:13,010 --> 00:26:14,275
[Wieland] Number 2?

474
00:26:14,335 --> 00:26:15,680
[Francesca] No, I'm serious.

475
00:26:15,810 --> 00:26:25,179
But the thing is that, when
governments do not enforce,

476
00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:30,519
do not abide by international
law, next in line is

477
00:26:30,530 --> 00:26:34,819
like watchdogs that are the
civil society, NGOs are the

478
00:26:34,830 --> 00:26:37,963
natural watchdogs of what
the government does,

479
00:26:38,030 --> 00:26:39,814
unless there is an ombudsman.

480
00:26:39,990 --> 00:26:43,799
There are protection
mechanisms at the

481
00:26:43,810 --> 00:26:44,839
country level.

482
00:26:45,210 --> 00:26:47,419
Otherwise, there is the
international...

483
00:26:47,430 --> 00:26:49,669
No, there are the 
courts, tribunals.

484
00:26:49,810 --> 00:26:52,289
In fact, in other countries,
these are working.

485
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:55,439
These are mechanisms that
have been activated through

486
00:26:55,450 --> 00:26:58,599
strategic litigation of civil
society who have sued the

487
00:26:58,610 --> 00:27:02,619
government for complicity in
crimes and for transferring

488
00:27:02,630 --> 00:27:03,869
weapons to Israel

489
00:27:03,869 --> 00:27:05,751
at the time, it was
committing genocide.

490
00:27:05,751 --> 00:27:10,099
and I hope more and more there
needs to be scrutiny of what

491
00:27:10,110 --> 00:27:18,579
universities, pension funds,
banks, and any other private actors

492
00:27:18,620 --> 00:27:22,739
who contributes in any
possible ways, big or small,

493
00:27:22,750 --> 00:27:27,180
to the unlawfulness of
Israel's presence

494
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,229
in the occupied 
Palestinian territory,

495
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:31,093
they must be
held accountable.

496
00:27:31,510 --> 00:27:34,339
And you know, in a country
like that, that is not easy,

497
00:27:34,350 --> 00:27:36,879
because I hear that this
is something that has been

498
00:27:36,890 --> 00:27:40,869
tried already and there
has been a bit of pushback.

499
00:27:41,010 --> 00:27:44,119
I hope it's not the case
because really I had, again

500
00:27:44,130 --> 00:27:47,019
I'm someone who has grown
a thinking of Germany as an

501
00:27:47,030 --> 00:27:49,619
example because of its legal
scholars and because of

502
00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:51,469
its courageous judges.

503
00:27:51,810 --> 00:27:54,959
I'm not in again, studying 
Palestinian refugees

504
00:27:54,970 --> 00:27:57,799
in international
law writing a book about

505
00:27:57,810 --> 00:27:59,789
Palestinian refugees
in international law.

506
00:27:59,789 --> 00:28:02,352
I would like to remind that
it was German courts which

507
00:28:02,352 --> 00:28:05,339
allowed to develop the
jurisprudence that has

508
00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:08,799
existed on how to protect
Palestinian refugees

509
00:28:08,810 --> 00:28:11,289
outside the Middle East.

510
00:28:11,510 --> 00:28:14,649
So even in Germany, it
has never been that bad.

511
00:28:15,010 --> 00:28:18,009
You can still go back
to a place of sanity.

512
00:28:18,450 --> 00:28:21,669
So courts have to be
activated, but also

513
00:28:23,289 --> 00:28:28,423
certain struggles are not 
brought to court,

514
00:28:28,754 --> 00:28:32,799
cannot not be fought

515
00:28:32,884 --> 00:28:36,804
without the
- peacefully fought of course -

516
00:28:36,930 --> 00:28:39,529
without the support of 
the public opinion.

517
00:28:40,050 --> 00:28:43,220
Because eventually judges
also read newspapers.

518
00:28:43,630 --> 00:28:46,429
And the problem is if the
debate is so toxic,

519
00:28:46,660 --> 00:28:50,079
if the media's work is primarily
not about telling the facts

520
00:28:50,090 --> 00:28:52,659
let alone the legal
qualifications,

521
00:28:52,730 --> 00:28:59,729
but about manufacturing consensus
so as to maintain a certain narrative

522
00:28:59,790 --> 00:29:01,299
a certain discourse,

523
00:29:01,310 --> 00:29:02,783
it's very complicated.

524
00:29:03,090 --> 00:29:07,999
So what is left is there are
international mechanisms

525
00:29:08,010 --> 00:29:10,657
that scrutinise the 
performance of states,

526
00:29:10,657 --> 00:29:15,189
but again, I'm not 
starry-eyed on this.

527
00:29:15,330 --> 00:29:19,219
Right now, it sounds like
an emergency,

528
00:29:19,230 --> 00:29:23,625
and in time of emergency, 
you don't go into a long-term plan,

529
00:29:23,690 --> 00:29:24,999
if you see what I mean.

530
00:29:24,999 --> 00:29:27,759
So I do think that most
of the work is to be done,

531
00:29:27,770 --> 00:29:31,919
of course, internationally,
eliciting solidarity from others,

532
00:29:31,930 --> 00:29:35,519
eliciting scrutiny,
because there is, again,

533
00:29:35,530 --> 00:29:38,659
there is a sense that in Germany,
things are bad,

534
00:29:39,730 --> 00:29:44,979
but now, I can tell you, if I'm shocked, 
if I'm that shocked

535
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,409
I can tell you, there is no 
real understanding

536
00:29:47,409 --> 00:29:49,191
of what's going on 
in this country,

537
00:29:49,230 --> 00:29:52,646
and I'm afraid that 
this will continue to spread.

538
00:29:53,740 --> 00:29:56,829
So, yeah, many more people
should talk about that,

539
00:29:56,829 --> 00:29:59,329
many more people should ask
your government questions

540
00:29:59,340 --> 00:30:01,989
and the subsequent
government questions.

541
00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:06,169
So it's a struggle that
needs to be continued

542
00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:09,642
on a multi-fronts level.

543
00:30:10,180 --> 00:30:11,824
[Wieland] You said it's about...

544
00:30:11,864 --> 00:30:14,160
[Francesca] Just one second, 
by the way, the ICJ

545
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,489
and the ICC, because then
it seems that nothing

546
00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:18,380
is happening at the
international level.

547
00:30:18,380 --> 00:30:21,219
While international justice
is very slow, it's moving.

548
00:30:21,220 --> 00:30:23,549
I mean, for the first time,
and it would have been

549
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:28,519
unimaginable years ago, 
where in this country,

550
00:30:28,540 --> 00:30:31,829
like many other, including my country,
was even impossible to say

551
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:38,039
apartheid, let alone genocide,
and despite the difficulties,

552
00:30:38,260 --> 00:30:43,989
now, the ICC has indicted two
Israeli leaders, one active,

553
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,189
the prime minister, and the other, 
the former minister of defense

554
00:30:48,260 --> 00:30:50,509
so they are wanted
by the ICC, and hopefully,

555
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,422
I think that there should
be many more,

556
00:30:52,422 --> 00:30:55,779
because the colonisation has been
ongoing for a long time.

557
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,809
And the International Court
of Justice is looking at

558
00:31:00,390 --> 00:31:03,039
genocide in two cases.

559
00:31:03,260 --> 00:31:05,689
Genocide in the Occupied
Palestinian Territory,

560
00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:10,849
both in the case initiated by South
Africa versus Germany, sorry,

561
00:31:10,860 --> 00:31:14,709
Israel, and, sorry guys,
I am on two hours sleep,

562
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,929
so be patient, and I was
quite sleep-deprived,

563
00:31:18,940 --> 00:31:21,819
and Nicaragua versus Germany.

564
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,609
So your country is brought
before an international

565
00:31:25,620 --> 00:31:28,529
court of justice because
of its support to

566
00:31:28,540 --> 00:31:30,101
the genocide in Gaza.

567
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,209
[Wieland] You actually just
mentioned the ICC warrants,

568
00:31:34,220 --> 00:31:35,929
which I wanted to ask you about.

569
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,379
On January 27th, International
Holocaust Remembrance Day,

570
00:31:41,390 --> 00:31:44,759
originally there was a
plan for Netanyahu

571
00:31:44,770 --> 00:31:48,839
to go to Auschwitz for a
commemoration celebration.

572
00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:56,334
And in the end he didn't, a
junior member of government went

573
00:31:57,959 --> 00:32:01,379
but there was obviously
much controversy about it,

574
00:32:01,390 --> 00:32:05,559
and the Polish government
said quite brazenly that

575
00:32:05,570 --> 00:32:07,049
they would allow him to come.

576
00:32:07,130 --> 00:32:09,029
They would not
enforce the warrant.

577
00:32:09,950 --> 00:32:11,925
It wasn't put to the test
in the end,

578
00:32:11,925 --> 00:32:14,568
but that's what they said in front
of the whole world.

579
00:32:14,748 --> 00:32:21,844
The other week, the unfortunately
most likely next chancellor

580
00:32:21,970 --> 00:32:25,498
in this country, Friedrich Merz, 
conservative leader

581
00:32:26,270 --> 00:32:31,859
said that if there was
a plan for Netanyahu to come

582
00:32:31,870 --> 00:32:34,920
to Germany, then of course he
would not be arrested,

583
00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:38,479
that these warrants
mean nothing.

584
00:32:39,509 --> 00:32:42,649
Now, of course, one could
say this is all hot air,

585
00:32:42,660 --> 00:32:45,479
but what could be done?

586
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:46,569
What would happen?

587
00:32:47,020 --> 00:32:51,229
[Francesca] Well, you see, without even
bothering international law,

588
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:56,029
is it normal that someone who
is not even in function yet

589
00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:01,889
or might have governmental
function steps into the realm

590
00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:05,019
of competence that belongs
to the justice system?

591
00:33:05,020 --> 00:33:08,449
It's not up to government
officials to say whether

592
00:33:08,460 --> 00:33:13,929
someone will be arrested
or not, based on the

593
00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:16,409
determination, on an
investigation that has

594
00:33:16,420 --> 00:33:19,719
been carried out by the
International Criminal Court.

595
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,669
I mean, you see, we are
completely dismantling

596
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,432
the system that we
have so hardly...

597
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,289
I mean, with so much
sacrifice and political

598
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:32,659
investment built.

599
00:33:33,150 --> 00:33:34,179
Out of what?

600
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:35,880
Seriously, out of what?

601
00:33:35,940 --> 00:33:43,149
Like, this alliance among
politicians who tend

602
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,949
to protect each other
when one commits crimes

603
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,805
and end up committing
crimes all together.

604
00:33:50,450 --> 00:33:52,139
Now I'm getting
arrested, yeah.

605
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,019
In south of Italy has
a very specific name.

606
00:33:56,330 --> 00:33:57,936
I'm not going to say that.

607
00:33:58,510 --> 00:34:01,189
But this is not normal.

608
00:34:01,650 --> 00:34:05,759
This is non-normal, the
intimidation against human

609
00:34:05,770 --> 00:34:09,438
rights defenders, lawyers,
scholars, the pressure in

610
00:34:09,449 --> 00:34:13,178
university in order not
to have an honest debate,

611
00:34:13,190 --> 00:34:18,566
frankly, about 60,000 people
plus that have been killed

612
00:34:21,260 --> 00:34:25,108
without, again, without
denying that crimes have been

613
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,148
committed against Israelis,
absolutely, no one

614
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:29,500
has ever denied that,

615
00:34:29,500 --> 00:34:32,329
I have been condemning crimes
against civilians because

616
00:34:32,340 --> 00:34:34,788
my red line is that a
civilian is a civilian,

617
00:34:34,788 --> 00:34:35,980
and so it's untouchable.

618
00:34:35,980 --> 00:34:39,789
It's the responsibility of the
government and of the states

619
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,176
to respond for crimes.

620
00:34:41,176 --> 00:34:43,560
But here's the responsibility
of Germany as well.

621
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,307
What is left to
the Palestinians?

622
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,948
What is left to the
Palestinians not to be

623
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,264
erased in the little that
remains of their land?

624
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,708
The guardians of the
self-determination

625
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,138
of the Palestinians
are member states.

626
00:34:55,518 --> 00:34:56,787
[Applause]

627
00:34:57,350 --> 00:35:06,397
What has Germany done
throughout 2023 when 12 pogroms,

628
00:35:06,580 --> 00:35:10,438
according to how they
have been defined by many,

629
00:35:10,450 --> 00:35:13,079
including in Israel, have
been carried out against

630
00:35:13,090 --> 00:35:18,278
defenseless Palestinian
villages by violent, armed,

631
00:35:18,290 --> 00:35:22,559
ideological settlers,
escorted, as usual,

632
00:35:22,570 --> 00:35:24,199
by the Israeli army.

633
00:35:25,230 --> 00:35:30,619
And again, homes and cars and
other possessions have been

634
00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:34,559
incinerated and so orchards,
and Palestinians have been

635
00:35:34,570 --> 00:35:36,309
beaten up and terrorized.

636
00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:37,869
Where was Germany?

637
00:35:37,890 --> 00:35:41,139
And Germany knows, not because
necessarily your government

638
00:35:41,150 --> 00:35:43,478
has to read the
human rights reports,

639
00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:47,921
but because it has a diplomatic
presence in the

640
00:35:47,921 --> 00:35:49,410
occupied Palestinian territory.

641
00:35:49,410 --> 00:35:51,809
And everyone knows what's
going on in the

642
00:35:51,809 --> 00:35:53,290
occupied Palestinian territory.

643
00:35:53,290 --> 00:35:56,579
And everyone knows the crimes
that Israel has been committed

644
00:35:56,590 --> 00:35:58,489
with impunity for decades.

645
00:35:58,890 --> 00:36:04,318
So the Palestinians have been
persecuted, abused, oppressed,

646
00:36:04,330 --> 00:36:09,568
killed, blamed, smeared,
and in the face of this we

647
00:36:09,580 --> 00:36:10,959
cannot even talk about that?

648
00:36:11,780 --> 00:36:13,629
I mean, again, this
is not my problem.

649
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,429
I mean, thank God that I'm
not that sensitive that

650
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,419
someone cancels it.

651
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:26,749
And again, I talk, and I take
it personally, I said: As long

652
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,469
as they pay the hotel room
for which they invited me.

653
00:36:30,569 --> 00:36:31,608
That's fine.

654
00:36:32,530 --> 00:36:33,907
The problem is yours.

655
00:36:34,290 --> 00:36:36,719
This is the country you
live in and your fellow

656
00:36:36,730 --> 00:36:38,078
citizens live in.

657
00:36:38,290 --> 00:36:40,824
So, and it's very serious.

658
00:36:41,470 --> 00:36:42,839
[Wieland] Certainly is.

659
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:44,625
Thank you.

660
00:36:44,752 --> 00:36:51,077
[Applause]

661
00:36:51,170 --> 00:36:54,458
I'm just looking a bit at
the time and we wanted to

662
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:57,049
give a bit of space for
people to ask questions.

663
00:36:57,550 --> 00:37:00,099
No doubt there'll be many
questions and not every

664
00:37:00,110 --> 00:37:01,969
question can be taken.

665
00:37:01,970 --> 00:37:07,418
But you said that you also
wanted to share some points

666
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:08,909
about genocide earlier.

667
00:37:09,130 --> 00:37:11,765
[Francesca] Yes, very briefly,
as much as I can.

668
00:37:12,490 --> 00:37:17,478
Because it's very important
to remind ourselves of what

669
00:37:17,490 --> 00:37:22,569
genocide is and what the
risk of genocide triggers.

670
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:24,815
It's very important
in this country,

671
00:37:25,670 --> 00:37:31,298
because it's genocide
is not defined by personal

672
00:37:31,310 --> 00:37:33,978
opinions and personal
histories no matter how

673
00:37:33,990 --> 00:37:38,358
painful they are and there is
no question, no question that

674
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:43,796
Germany has a lot to atone
for for the genocides it has committed.

675
00:37:44,020 --> 00:37:48,479
And at the same time,
genocide today,

676
00:37:48,555 --> 00:37:50,509
what constitutes genocide

677
00:37:50,540 --> 00:37:53,745
is written in an international treaty.

678
00:37:54,130 --> 00:37:57,338
What constitutes genocide is
acts of killing against the

679
00:37:57,350 --> 00:38:01,778
members of a group, infliction
of severe mental or physical

680
00:38:01,790 --> 00:38:04,478
harm to members of the group,
the creation of conditions

681
00:38:04,490 --> 00:38:08,458
of life calculated to lead
to the physical destruction

682
00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:15,318
of members of the group
and prevent, thank you,

683
00:38:15,330 --> 00:38:17,589
prevention of birth and

684
00:38:17,590 --> 00:38:19,414
the transfer of children.

685
00:38:19,894 --> 00:38:25,898
So you see, I hear criticism
like in the UK,

686
00:38:25,910 --> 00:38:27,980
for example, look at the
numbers of killing

687
00:38:27,980 --> 00:38:30,707
as killing 70,000
people was not bad.

688
00:38:31,470 --> 00:38:34,499
Again, I often ask myself,
what kind of monsters

689
00:38:34,510 --> 00:38:35,732
have we become?

690
00:38:36,030 --> 00:38:41,039
But also the brutality of the
attack, the way everything has

691
00:38:41,050 --> 00:38:44,828
been destroyed, in a way, as
we will have the chance to talk

692
00:38:46,370 --> 00:38:49,938
in a way that has led
to conditions calculated to

693
00:38:49,950 --> 00:38:51,762
destroy the Palestinians.

694
00:38:51,782 --> 00:38:54,019
But the thing is that in
order to have genocide,

695
00:38:54,030 --> 00:38:56,049
it's not sufficient to
commit these crimes.

696
00:38:56,070 --> 00:38:59,599
The crimes have to be
committed with intent,

697
00:38:59,610 --> 00:39:04,363
with the determination to
destroy the group as such.

698
00:39:05,050 --> 00:39:09,569
And people say it's very
difficult to prove intent.

699
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:10,959
Yes, you know why?

700
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,830
Because it's very difficult to
commit, I mean, it's difficult

701
00:39:13,830 --> 00:39:16,630
to prove genocide because it
should be difficult to commit

702
00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:19,861
genocide in 2024 or in 2025.

703
00:39:20,980 --> 00:39:23,738
It shouldn't be possible
because in the system,

704
00:39:23,850 --> 00:39:27,708
there are some check and balances
in a system that calls itself

705
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,869
democratic where there is
a rule of law system

706
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,529
with the separation of power.

707
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,849
I mean, you might have crazy
government officials making

708
00:39:35,860 --> 00:39:38,729
genocidal incitements and
say: starve them all,

709
00:39:38,850 --> 00:39:44,453
kill them all, they are all
animals, even the kids.

710
00:39:44,860 --> 00:39:47,409
I mean, Germany is not the
first time where this has

711
00:39:47,420 --> 00:39:50,588
happened because I've read
the Nuremberg Trials Act

712
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,309
and children were seen
as a security threat.

713
00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:58,758
But there might be, 
there might be,

714
00:39:59,310 --> 00:40:02,099
I mean, cabinet, war cabinet
ministers saying that.

715
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:06,749
And then, what are the other
cabinet ministers doing

716
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:08,280
in the face of this?

717
00:40:08,350 --> 00:40:12,909
What are the MPs, the members
of the Knesset, what have they

718
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,910
done to intervene, to stop
this, this incitement?

719
00:40:18,620 --> 00:40:21,749
What has the judiciary done
when the International Court

720
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,389
of Justice recognised the risk
of genocide, ordered Israel to

721
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:31,068
take measures to stop carrying
out its military operations

722
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,119
in a way that could result in
genocidal attacks,

723
00:40:34,190 --> 00:40:39,413
as it had been doing, 
and had Israel complied

724
00:40:39,490 --> 00:40:41,559
with the ICJ provisional measures

725
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,604
of January 2024, we wouldn't
be here today, probably.

726
00:40:46,020 --> 00:40:48,859
And what has the
judiciary done?

727
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,168
Has the judiciary in Israel
investigated any of the

728
00:40:52,180 --> 00:40:56,779
people, senior officials of
Israel who have been named

729
00:40:56,820 --> 00:41:02,269
in the provisional measures, 
in the text of the court that

730
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,949
accompanied in the provisional
measures, that system has

731
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,249
proven that being a reflex
of the enabling environment

732
00:41:10,260 --> 00:41:12,449
that Israel as a state was.

733
00:41:13,500 --> 00:41:15,890
And the intent has been,
it's not even that we need

734
00:41:15,890 --> 00:41:18,999
to dig to find intent,
there is direct intent.

735
00:41:19,260 --> 00:41:24,208
Because when Netanyahu and
others have ordered, again,

736
00:41:24,220 --> 00:41:29,849
starvation, no water,
no fuel, no electricity,

737
00:41:29,860 --> 00:41:33,319
no food, no food.

738
00:41:34,140 --> 00:41:38,889
Of course, this would lead
to conditions calculated to

739
00:41:38,900 --> 00:41:43,088
bring about the destruction
of a group or members

740
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:45,919
of the group as such
identified as Palestinians.

741
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,148
So in the face of this,
there should have been an

742
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,028
obligation, as I said, to
prevent because the convention

743
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:58,188
on genocide is not just
about the punishment of

744
00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:59,357
the crime of genocide.

745
00:41:59,357 --> 00:42:03,588
creates for each state,
especially influential

746
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,369
states who are providing
support, an obligation

747
00:42:06,380 --> 00:42:08,339
to prevent and stop.

748
00:42:08,620 --> 00:42:13,628
And again, in April 2024,
in Nicaragua versus Germany,

749
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,688
the court reminded Germany
and other member states to

750
00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:20,688
intervene by not transferring
weapons to states who might be

751
00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:23,929
committing not just genocidal
acts, but violations of

752
00:42:23,940 --> 00:42:26,939
international humanitarian
law, including war crimes.

753
00:42:26,940 --> 00:42:31,939
So the killing of 17 ,000
children, what is it?

754
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,199
This is what journalists
should ask your Chancellor.

755
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,969
Because again, it's not
about his personal opinion,

756
00:42:37,980 --> 00:42:39,319
which I respect very much.

757
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,088
But it doesn't respond to
this question out of personal

758
00:42:44,100 --> 00:42:45,359
commitment, I imagine.

759
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,300
But as the chancellor of this
country, which has obligation

760
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:49,469
under international law.

761
00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:55,068
And the way Germany is evading
its obligations and acting

762
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,829
in a way that is prohibited
under international

763
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,659
law cannot be hidden.

764
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:02,365
This is the reality.

765
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,789
That's an appropriate note
to end on before we open

766
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:07,880
it up to the audience.

767
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,608
We are representatives of
Students for Palestine, FU,

768
00:43:10,620 --> 00:43:14,449
and also students from the
not-so-free university here

769
00:43:14,460 --> 00:43:17,969
in Berlin that cancelled
your event tomorrow, so we

770
00:43:17,980 --> 00:43:20,468
are very happy to see you
and to ask our questions.

771
00:43:20,468 --> 00:43:23,528
In a recent viral video,
you rightfully criticized

772
00:43:23,540 --> 00:43:26,099
the German state and the
situation this country is in.

773
00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:29,349
You are also aware of the
protests and the repression

774
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:30,399
we are experiencing.

775
00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:33,210
Our question would be, how
can we stand up against

776
00:43:33,210 --> 00:43:36,929
such state repression,
and who can we trust when

777
00:43:36,940 --> 00:43:38,185
it comes to our rights?

778
00:43:38,620 --> 00:43:41,048
I mean, we are protesting
and boycotting, but

779
00:43:41,060 --> 00:43:42,399
what else can we do?

780
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:47,088
Maybe you are aware of this,
I think we tried to convey a

781
00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:51,989
very comprehensive report on
the collaborations of Freie

782
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,309
Universität with a series
of Israeli institutions and

783
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,108
universities which we think
are in very clear breach

784
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,559
of international law and
morality as such too.

785
00:44:03,780 --> 00:44:07,389
To give one example, the Freie
Universität is sending its

786
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,028
students very often without
the knowledge where it's

787
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,880
specifically sending and what
kind of situation it's sending

788
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,608
these students to exchange
programs for example with the

789
00:44:16,620 --> 00:44:20,048
Hebrew University which has
its students hostels in East

790
00:44:20,060 --> 00:44:22,499
Jerusalem on which we think is

791
00:44:22,500 --> 00:44:27,329
an equal illegal settlement and
we would like if you could say

792
00:44:27,340 --> 00:44:31,869
a few words on what you think
are the obligations of German

793
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,399
universities, in particular
FU regarding such cases.

794
00:44:35,620 --> 00:44:38,608
We also would like to forward
a question for later to Eyal

795
00:44:38,620 --> 00:44:43,329
already, what he thinks, as
a scholar originally from

796
00:44:43,340 --> 00:44:47,249
Israel, what the political
impact of such campaigns

797
00:44:47,260 --> 00:44:50,369
is also in order to break
the normalisation of

798
00:44:50,380 --> 00:44:51,859
occupation and apartheid.

799
00:44:52,660 --> 00:44:57,068
And to give another example
on this, the university's law

800
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,548
faculty, where I am a student
at currently, has a couple of

801
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,648
programs running, but one of
them is called, Human Rights

802
00:45:04,660 --> 00:45:08,708
Under Pressure, and it
advertises with experiencing

803
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:12,188
and researching these
human rights under pressure

804
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:13,539
in the field, and is

805
00:45:13,540 --> 00:45:19,048
sending programs very often
to Israel and the occupied

806
00:45:19,060 --> 00:45:22,648
territories, and as I think
Francesca has been made

807
00:45:22,660 --> 00:45:26,249
aware of by a letter that
FU professors from the law

808
00:45:26,260 --> 00:45:32,289
department wrote, yeah, it is,
you know, this normalisation

809
00:45:32,300 --> 00:45:34,759
is happening through these
kinds of corporations.

810
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,068
Anyways, thanks for your
attention, we will probably

811
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:47,309
tomorrow upload the report
on bds-fu.de, bds-fu.de,

812
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,839
and try to support the
campaign if you want to.

813
00:45:51,744 --> 00:45:56,654
[Applause]

814
00:45:56,710 --> 00:46:00,378
I would also like to really
beg for your indulgence in the

815
00:46:00,390 --> 00:46:04,099
sense that, after all, I mean,
I'm very happy to be received

816
00:46:04,110 --> 00:46:10,159
by so much warmth and
expectations, but also I would

817
00:46:10,170 --> 00:46:13,679
like you to keep realistic
expectations on what

818
00:46:13,690 --> 00:46:15,669
can come from me, in
the sense I'm really

819
00:46:15,670 --> 00:46:18,478
just a human rights lawyer
who's trying to do the right

820
00:46:18,490 --> 00:46:22,219
thing, no more than that, and
I'm sorry that it's a rare

821
00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:26,278
commodity in this era, but
I don't know, sometimes I

822
00:46:26,290 --> 00:46:30,499
just don't know, because let
me tell you, I think that

823
00:46:30,510 --> 00:46:33,349
what the universities
are doing is wrong.

824
00:46:34,030 --> 00:46:36,709
It's so wrong that it should
be brought to justice.

825
00:46:37,310 --> 00:46:41,099
University cannot have
partnerships with anything

826
00:46:41,110 --> 00:46:43,429
that has to do with
the settlements.

827
00:46:43,790 --> 00:46:46,378
Cannot have partnership,
but really we are being

828
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:50,039
conservative here because at
the time of apartheid South

829
00:46:50,050 --> 00:46:54,199
Africa, it's not that we were
going to see how to establish

830
00:46:54,210 --> 00:46:57,818
or cut relations with Israel
just in the limit of the

831
00:46:57,830 --> 00:47:01,938
Bantustan, where South
Africa was segregating

832
00:47:01,950 --> 00:47:04,299
the black South Africans.

833
00:47:04,370 --> 00:47:07,579
I mean, if Israel commits
crimes that should lead to

834
00:47:07,590 --> 00:47:12,019
accountability and justice
360 degrees, so I'm even

835
00:47:12,030 --> 00:47:16,219
uncomfortable as a lawyer to
have to split the hair and

836
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:18,509
say the settlements and
not the settlements.

837
00:47:18,790 --> 00:47:21,958
Maya Wind, an Israeli scholar,
has done incredible work

838
00:47:21,970 --> 00:47:23,769
on the responsibility
of universities.

839
00:47:23,770 --> 00:47:27,938
As such, Israeli universities
explaining why it's wrong

840
00:47:27,950 --> 00:47:32,458
today, in 2025, to maintain
partnership with Israeli

841
00:47:32,470 --> 00:47:36,958
universities who are part
of Israel's infrastructure,

842
00:47:36,970 --> 00:47:41,499
military and surveillance
and oppression infrastructure

843
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:42,899
vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

844
00:47:43,270 --> 00:47:47,719
So not having ties, not
having relations, not having

845
00:47:47,730 --> 00:47:51,159
partnerships, not sending
students to things that

846
00:47:51,170 --> 00:47:55,239
have to do with the occupied
Palestinian territory should

847
00:47:55,250 --> 00:47:59,239
be the minimum bearable for a
university to keep on calling

848
00:47:59,250 --> 00:48:01,589
itself free, if freedom calls.

849
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,789
That, by the way, I really
object that the university

850
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,519
keeps on having the name free
after cancelling me and Eyal.

851
00:48:17,999 --> 00:48:25,539
[Applause]

852
00:48:25,980 --> 00:48:27,179
What can you do?

853
00:48:27,180 --> 00:48:31,728
You should really try to
work as much as possible

854
00:48:31,740 --> 00:48:34,499
in solidarity with others.

855
00:48:34,660 --> 00:48:38,508
Because if one thing I've
learned by myself, is that

856
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,839
unity brings strength.

857
00:48:41,660 --> 00:48:44,269
And I understand that
especially, I don't know

858
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,228
if this is unique to the
Palestine Solidarity Movement,

859
00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:51,369
but there is a little bit of
snobbish attitude, to draw,

860
00:48:51,380 --> 00:48:53,449
I agree with this, but
then it doesn't agree

861
00:48:53,460 --> 00:48:54,699
with everything I say.

862
00:48:55,500 --> 00:48:59,068
Can you be minimalist for
once and agree on a few points

863
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,909
like end the genocide, end
the occupation, and end

864
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,259
apartheid, and then,

865
00:49:03,514 --> 00:49:10,784
[Applause]

866
00:49:10,890 --> 00:49:14,719
let's say, because in time,
in south of Italy, I come from

867
00:49:14,730 --> 00:49:18,338
a region of peasants, so we
have a very simple way of

868
00:49:18,350 --> 00:49:23,219
understanding life in a way,
and say "in time of deluge,

869
00:49:23,230 --> 00:49:24,489
all arms are needed".

870
00:49:24,490 --> 00:49:28,318
And this is the thing, this
is a time of crisis, so all

871
00:49:28,330 --> 00:49:31,418
brains are needed, all mouth
and eyes and ears are needed,

872
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:37,478
so let's just ally along the
lines of, there is a need

873
00:49:37,490 --> 00:49:41,559
for a popular front around
human rights and justice,

874
00:49:41,570 --> 00:49:43,929
because what's happening
in Palestine is

875
00:49:43,930 --> 00:49:48,478
not staying in Palestine, nor
in Israel either, so it's,

876
00:49:48,490 --> 00:49:50,119
I mean, yeah, it's the same.

877
00:49:50,119 --> 00:49:55,318
And so this is why it's
necessary to try to explore

878
00:49:55,330 --> 00:49:59,499
creatively what alliances
you might need, including

879
00:49:59,510 --> 00:50:03,509
with universities outside
Germany, or with scholars.

880
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:06,436
There are a few scholars here,
but there are a few scholars

881
00:50:06,436 --> 00:50:07,780
who have been speaking out.

882
00:50:07,780 --> 00:50:11,699
I mean, to be honest, Eyal
and I, when former Freie

883
00:50:11,710 --> 00:50:17,318
University invited us, it was
Freie University invited us,

884
00:50:17,330 --> 00:50:20,969
We received an invitation
from Potsdam University.

885
00:50:21,290 --> 00:50:25,239
I cannot ensure 100 % that the
event would have been, would

886
00:50:25,250 --> 00:50:28,179
have not been cancelled, but
at least there was an attempt

887
00:50:28,190 --> 00:50:29,369
and we couldn't make it.

888
00:50:29,550 --> 00:50:31,709
But it was too much
short notice, sorry.

889
00:50:32,290 --> 00:50:37,059
But again, this is where we
need to reach out to everyone

890
00:50:37,070 --> 00:50:40,579
who's sensible enough, who
has a minimum of knowledge and

891
00:50:40,590 --> 00:50:44,559
a minimum of decency, which
shouldn't be too much to ask,

892
00:50:44,570 --> 00:50:48,858
so as to stand up against the
injustice that is spreading

893
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:50,190
in this country as well.

894
00:50:50,190 --> 00:50:52,659
Thank you, Francesca, for
being here and for all the

895
00:50:52,670 --> 00:50:55,199
work that you have been
doing for over the past year.

896
00:50:56,030 --> 00:50:59,239
So, you touched a little bit
on this, and probably this is

897
00:50:59,250 --> 00:51:02,898
going to be a controversial
question, but as a

898
00:51:02,910 --> 00:51:06,679
Palestinian, all these, like,
international laws, human

899
00:51:06,690 --> 00:51:10,699
rights, the UN, all of these
things, how we can trust

900
00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:13,599
and, like, put our trust
in these concepts and

901
00:51:13,610 --> 00:51:15,249
institutions, if they

902
00:51:15,250 --> 00:51:19,499
fail to stop the genocide for
the past 16 months when all

903
00:51:19,510 --> 00:51:24,079
the greater powers in the
world are not following or

904
00:51:24,090 --> 00:51:29,758
like listening to or abiding
by all these laws, and also

905
00:51:29,770 --> 00:51:33,499
with the veto right as well,
when five superpowers can

906
00:51:33,510 --> 00:51:38,249
just veto any ceasefire
or any resolution?

907
00:51:38,810 --> 00:51:41,559
I'm not going to answer that
question because the point

908
00:51:41,570 --> 00:51:43,467
is not that you should
trust the system.

909
00:51:43,467 --> 00:51:44,909
You shouldn't
trust the system.

910
00:51:45,390 --> 00:51:51,169
You shouldn't expect the
system to give you anything.

911
00:51:51,750 --> 00:51:54,398
Because again, what the
Palestinians have got

912
00:51:54,410 --> 00:51:57,049
is something that the
Palestinians had to fight for.

913
00:51:57,690 --> 00:52:00,609
And it's not that the
Palestinians are exceptional.

914
00:52:00,930 --> 00:52:03,659
This epitomises
the struggle of any

915
00:52:03,670 --> 00:52:05,089
minorities in this world.

916
00:52:06,110 --> 00:52:10,818
And again, so you need really
to count on all possible

917
00:52:10,830 --> 00:52:12,389
forces and alliances.

918
00:52:12,390 --> 00:52:16,309
for example, not everything
in the United Nations is bad.

919
00:52:17,119 --> 00:52:18,559
No one is saying that

920
00:52:19,410 --> 00:52:20,170
Ah.

921
00:52:20,170 --> 00:52:21,220
I'm joking.

922
00:52:21,220 --> 00:52:22,010
No, no.

923
00:52:22,010 --> 00:52:25,278
But I want to say, I want
to say that there have been

924
00:52:25,290 --> 00:52:27,549
30 special rapporteurs.

925
00:52:27,630 --> 00:52:31,429
Now you see me, but there has
been 30 special rapporteurs.

926
00:52:31,550 --> 00:52:36,079
And while the struggle and the
attacks against me are known,

927
00:52:36,090 --> 00:52:40,978
many others have not even
that visibility to complain

928
00:52:40,990 --> 00:52:42,409
or to elicit solidarity.

929
00:52:42,410 --> 00:52:46,239
So it's really about
supporting each other and from

930
00:52:46,250 --> 00:52:49,709
the different walks of life
we come from, etc, etc.

931
00:52:49,870 --> 00:52:54,278
So the thing is that there
is also some difficulty in

932
00:52:54,290 --> 00:53:00,938
exploring how to build these
alliances, because we are more

933
00:53:00,950 --> 00:53:02,669
fragile in these societies.

934
00:53:02,930 --> 00:53:05,449
We are not, you see,
even grieving together.

935
00:53:05,590 --> 00:53:08,898
Why my lectures have
become a place where

936
00:53:08,910 --> 00:53:09,989
people come and cry?

937
00:53:09,990 --> 00:53:13,458
Because in our societies,
there is no, we are not

938
00:53:13,470 --> 00:53:17,049
afforded the luxury of
places for collective grief.

939
00:53:18,210 --> 00:53:21,458
And where we can also talk
about what we have gone

940
00:53:21,470 --> 00:53:26,179
through, we can check on each
other and have the courage to

941
00:53:26,190 --> 00:53:29,298
look into each other's eyes
and say, it's okay, it's okay

942
00:53:29,310 --> 00:53:32,758
to cry, it's okay to feel
crazy, it's okay to be scared

943
00:53:32,770 --> 00:53:34,905
and to carry fear,

944
00:53:34,905 --> 00:53:35,929
it's okay.

945
00:53:35,929 --> 00:53:42,179
And even rage, and even
wanting to express oneself in

946
00:53:42,190 --> 00:53:46,099
ways that are not necessarily
compliant with German or

947
00:53:46,110 --> 00:53:49,059
even Italian standards,
it's okay to be enraged

948
00:53:49,070 --> 00:53:50,029
against the system.

949
00:53:50,450 --> 00:53:54,869
The point is that how do we
move beyond grief into action?

950
00:53:55,350 --> 00:53:57,999
And this is where we need
to understand what it means,

951
00:53:58,010 --> 00:54:02,009
I think, being in the line,
where everything is at risk.

952
00:54:02,010 --> 00:54:05,358
I mean, and I know that now,
it's still, we have some

953
00:54:05,370 --> 00:54:10,579
privilege in our works, but
if some of us start to lose

954
00:54:10,590 --> 00:54:14,619
it just for exercising their
rights, we should all feel

955
00:54:14,630 --> 00:54:18,349
worried, because sooner
or later it will hit us.

956
00:54:18,530 --> 00:54:22,719
This is where we need to
build nets, safety nets,

957
00:54:22,730 --> 00:54:23,669
to help each other.

958
00:54:25,210 --> 00:54:27,599
We don't need, really,
we don't need to spend

959
00:54:27,610 --> 00:54:28,929
that much in our life.

960
00:54:28,930 --> 00:54:31,669
We can have times
of austerity.

961
00:54:31,870 --> 00:54:36,298
We should afford austerity
in our own life and trust me,

962
00:54:36,310 --> 00:54:40,659
if you see how my consumption
of clothes, my expenditure

963
00:54:40,670 --> 00:54:43,619
for clothes has gone down
from two years ago to

964
00:54:43,630 --> 00:54:45,789
now, you understand
what austerity means.

965
00:54:46,150 --> 00:54:51,619
But in the sense we don't
need as much, so we can afford

966
00:54:51,630 --> 00:54:54,209
less but also share more.

967
00:54:54,330 --> 00:54:56,918
I know it sounds idealistic,
but this is where I have

968
00:54:56,930 --> 00:54:59,989
I have more trust in these
than in what you said.

969
00:55:01,665 --> 00:55:05,826
[Applause]

970
00:55:05,900 --> 00:55:11,938
Also, also, apartheid
and racial segregation in

971
00:55:11,950 --> 00:55:16,398
the United States and the
dictatorships from Chile,

972
00:55:16,410 --> 00:55:20,159
Argentina, Chile, sorry,
Brazil, they didn't,

973
00:55:20,170 --> 00:55:23,338
or colonialism, brutal
colonisation, although

974
00:55:23,350 --> 00:55:26,019
colonialism is still
lingering, and this is the

975
00:55:26,030 --> 00:55:28,539
opportunity to unpack it,
because if one thing about

976
00:55:28,550 --> 00:55:32,069
Palestine, the genocide in
Palestine has brought to

977
00:55:32,070 --> 00:55:34,438
the fore is what
settler colonialism and

978
00:55:34,450 --> 00:55:35,729
colonialism still is.

979
00:55:35,870 --> 00:55:38,679
So it has spoke to the bubble
of colonial amnesia that we

980
00:55:38,690 --> 00:55:40,329
have grown into, many of us.

981
00:55:41,130 --> 00:55:44,338
So again, let's take the
silver, let's look at the

982
00:55:44,350 --> 00:55:46,549
silver lining out there.

983
00:55:46,990 --> 00:55:48,789
This is a moment to do better.

984
00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:53,439
We have to think together
and act together.

985
00:55:53,620 --> 00:55:55,819
This is the only
thing I feel to say.

986
00:55:55,980 --> 00:55:57,359
Hi, my name is Mark Barton.

987
00:55:57,359 --> 00:55:58,619
I'm a composer and
professor in Germany.

988
00:55:58,900 --> 00:56:03,309
My question is about press
freedom for Ms. Albanese and

989
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,008
the provisions that exist
under international law to

990
00:56:06,020 --> 00:56:07,519
guarantee press freedom.

991
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,949
We saw in Israel's attacks in
Lebanon, we saw the ability

992
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,128
of journalists to respond
immediately to accusations,

993
00:56:15,140 --> 00:56:17,899
for example, that hospitals
were being used by terrorists.

994
00:56:18,220 --> 00:56:22,548
And we saw the role that
journalism can play in

995
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:26,519
debunking disinformation
in real time.

996
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,400
We don't see a lot of that
happening in the West Bank

997
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,839
right now, and right now
there's a ceasefire in Gaza.

998
00:56:32,940 --> 00:56:35,400
We also don't see a lot of
international journalists

999
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,170
active, and I'm wondering if
there's anything international

1000
00:56:38,170 --> 00:56:39,790
law can do to force
that to happen.

1001
00:56:39,790 --> 00:56:43,068
When I think of what
journalists have done, and

1002
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,668
you mentioned Lebanon, I mean,
it's even more shocking the

1003
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:50,668
kind of double, I mean the
moral compass and the moral,

1004
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:55,548
the double, the selective
attitude that has been used

1005
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:58,819
after the Pager attack because
I don't know how it was in

1006
00:56:58,820 --> 00:57:01,490
Germany but in my own country
and other countries I saw

1007
00:57:01,490 --> 00:57:04,749
politicians and journalists
laughing about that and

1008
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:08,339
commenting on how audacious
and genius it was.

1009
00:57:08,339 --> 00:57:10,527
[Wieland] Praising the
ingenuity of the attack.

1010
00:57:10,527 --> 00:57:14,088
But this is where I say the
entry point now where they're

1011
00:57:14,100 --> 00:57:17,008
rallying, I mean something
to fight because this is

1012
00:57:17,020 --> 00:57:19,259
the common enemy, is racism.

1013
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:25,139
Racism it was, racism it is,
and racism continues to be.

1014
00:57:27,570 --> 00:57:32,159
And then was it, again,
I do not think that is

1015
00:57:32,170 --> 00:57:35,649
international law was not
able to stop genocide.

1016
00:57:36,010 --> 00:57:39,418
International law, it doesn't
have, I mean, doesn't have

1017
00:57:39,430 --> 00:57:43,938
hands to slap the face of
government officials who

1018
00:57:43,950 --> 00:57:46,469
pretend not to understand
what genocide is.

1019
00:57:46,730 --> 00:57:49,329
I'm not referring to anyone
in this country now, okay?

1020
00:57:50,190 --> 00:57:53,398
Seriously, I mean we have
enough bad politicians in my

1021
00:57:53,410 --> 00:58:00,519
own country and where even
the hypothesis of a two-state

1022
00:58:00,530 --> 00:58:04,619
solution now is dismantled by
the foreign minister because

1023
00:58:04,630 --> 00:58:07,818
Gaza's been turned into rubble
and the West Bank is too

1024
00:58:07,830 --> 00:58:09,858
small and I was saying,
are you suggesting

1025
00:58:09,870 --> 00:58:11,009
that the Palestinians

1026
00:58:11,009 --> 00:58:14,249
take over Israel just because
what remains is too little?

1027
00:58:14,670 --> 00:58:17,378
So this is the kind of
political discussions we have

1028
00:58:17,390 --> 00:58:21,739
today and we need to somewhat
talk to the intellectuals,

1029
00:58:21,750 --> 00:58:22,889
talk to the scholars.

1030
00:58:23,070 --> 00:58:25,659
This is also about the
constitutional order that

1031
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:28,669
is being undermined, not
just international system.

1032
00:58:29,230 --> 00:58:31,760
International system has
rules, at the constitutional

1033
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:32,730
level we have rules.

1034
00:58:32,730 --> 00:58:34,010
What's happening to them?

1035
00:58:34,010 --> 00:58:36,869
So again, back to you guys.

1036
00:58:36,870 --> 00:58:40,039
My question goes a bit in
line, like, seeing that the

1037
00:58:40,050 --> 00:58:44,059
current international law
has been unable for 16 months

1038
00:58:44,070 --> 00:58:48,639
to stop a genocide, I can't
believe I'm saying this, what

1039
00:58:48,650 --> 00:58:53,019
would, in your expert opinion,
be the ideal international

1040
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:57,398
law system, functioning
system, who would draft

1041
00:58:57,410 --> 00:58:58,670
it, who would enforce it?

1042
00:58:58,670 --> 00:59:01,918
We know that this one, based
on the nation-state, with this

1043
00:59:01,930 --> 00:59:06,298
Security Council created by
the winning powers from World

1044
00:59:06,310 --> 00:59:08,989
War II with a veto power, et
cetera, is not functioning.

1045
00:59:09,990 --> 00:59:12,418
How would you, yeah,
what would be the

1046
00:59:12,430 --> 00:59:15,149
ideal international law
system in your view?

1047
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:16,080
Thank you.

1048
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,699
As I said before, apartheid
was not dismantled

1049
00:59:18,710 --> 00:59:19,669
by member states.

1050
00:59:19,930 --> 00:59:22,659
It was very late, when
it was unavoidable that

1051
00:59:22,670 --> 00:59:25,329
they started sanctioning
apartheid South Africa.

1052
00:59:25,950 --> 00:59:30,179
But really, we need to
learn from other movements

1053
00:59:30,190 --> 00:59:34,159
where resistance, peaceful
resistance, has organised at

1054
00:59:34,170 --> 00:59:39,039
a global level, admitting that
never before there had been

1055
00:59:39,050 --> 00:59:46,818
such a coalition of allies
at the international level

1056
00:59:46,830 --> 00:59:50,029
aiming to crush solidarity.

1057
00:59:50,690 --> 00:59:51,549
This is new.

1058
00:59:51,770 --> 00:59:54,999
But again, also the kind of
forces that we can mobilise

1059
00:59:55,010 --> 00:59:57,669
is new, because the
Global South is rising.

1060
00:59:57,670 --> 01:00:01,099
And I know that in our
eurocentric view of the world,

1061
01:00:01,110 --> 01:00:06,728
we only look at the depressed,
quite politically depressing

1062
01:00:06,740 --> 01:00:09,728
scenario we have, but there
are also member states who

1063
01:00:09,740 --> 01:00:11,269
are cutting ties with Israel.

1064
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,230
There are member states, I
mean, I was joking today, but

1065
01:00:14,230 --> 01:00:17,349
I say in a few years, we will
keep on asking funds, seeking

1066
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:22,108
funds to, I don't know, Arab
countries or the Global South

1067
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,088
in order to protect our own
work in this part of the world,

1068
01:00:25,100 --> 01:00:26,246
the human rights work,

1069
01:00:26,246 --> 01:00:29,000
but it doesn't matter,
this will make us more equal.

1070
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,370
So I also think that the
discourse should change

1071
01:00:31,370 --> 01:00:37,449
because of where the
United States is going is

1072
01:00:37,460 --> 01:00:38,919
a place of lawlessness.

1073
01:00:40,020 --> 01:00:42,829
This is the opportunity for
the international community

1074
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:46,469
to step back, but it will
not happen automatically

1075
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:50,769
because we are part of this
oligarchical order where it's

1076
01:00:50,780 --> 01:00:53,188
not about what the people
think, it's what about

1077
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:57,208
capitalistic interests decide
and this is why I keep on

1078
01:00:57,220 --> 01:00:59,399
saying it's difficult and it's

1079
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,369
difficult because it's a
struggle against the system

1080
01:01:02,380 --> 01:01:05,648
of which Palestine is a
system, not necessarily

1081
01:01:05,660 --> 01:01:07,609
the cause of all evil.

1082
01:01:07,889 --> 01:01:10,850
[Applause]

1083
01:01:10,850 --> 01:01:14,438
I would like to pose a
question concerning genocide,

1084
01:01:14,450 --> 01:01:17,278
which you said it's very
difficult to prove this mental

1085
01:01:17,290 --> 01:01:21,999
state of committing it, but
then we have another layer

1086
01:01:22,010 --> 01:01:26,438
and this is incitement, which
we've been witnessing here

1087
01:01:26,450 --> 01:01:31,599
in Germany from the very
beginning, October 7, 23,

1088
01:01:31,610 --> 01:01:34,189
how Palestinians, but in

1089
01:01:34,190 --> 01:01:36,539
all their layers of
life, together with their

1090
01:01:36,550 --> 01:01:38,929
children, are dehumanised.

1091
01:01:39,430 --> 01:01:44,798
We just need to read
Tagesschau or Bild, and if I

1092
01:01:44,810 --> 01:01:49,239
may read, or not to take time,
but this is a serious problem,

1093
01:01:49,250 --> 01:01:52,458
and then if I go back to
the history and the magazine

1094
01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:57,679
Sturmer and compare the
images, not that I'm

1095
01:01:57,690 --> 01:02:02,169
comparing, comparing, but
this historical flow of

1096
01:02:02,170 --> 01:02:03,629
dehumanising then.

1097
01:02:04,150 --> 01:02:05,839
I have no problem
with comparison.

1098
01:02:05,850 --> 01:02:10,719
Okay, but then I am now
careful, so because we

1099
01:02:10,730 --> 01:02:12,239
know what can happen.

1100
01:02:12,390 --> 01:02:16,139
But the processes of
dehumanisations do last, and

1101
01:02:16,150 --> 01:02:19,559
they tell us that genocide,
like for instance, in the

1102
01:02:19,570 --> 01:02:23,569
country where I am from,
Serbia, lasts for a long time.

1103
01:02:23,570 --> 01:02:27,219
So I, as someone from
Serbia, could also recognise

1104
01:02:27,230 --> 01:02:31,219
dehumanising images of
Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslims

1105
01:02:31,230 --> 01:02:36,099
and then Palestinians while
reading magazines, Bild, not

1106
01:02:36,110 --> 01:02:41,458
that I read Bild, but Bild,
Tagesschau, or even I will now

1107
01:02:41,470 --> 01:02:46,039
mention the January 19th and
the release of hostages, which

1108
01:02:46,050 --> 01:02:47,549
was really an important day,

1109
01:02:47,710 --> 01:02:51,169
and it is every time when
we celebrate freed lives.

1110
01:02:51,170 --> 01:02:53,909
but then also freed
lives from the prison.

1111
01:02:54,550 --> 01:02:59,199
And when we see how they are
represented as the groyalde

1112
01:02:59,210 --> 01:03:03,469
Menge, can you help
me translate this?

1113
01:03:04,530 --> 01:03:07,669
Screaming crowd, groyalde
or the schreiende.

1114
01:03:08,150 --> 01:03:12,318
So this is my question about
the incitement, also how

1115
01:03:12,330 --> 01:03:17,519
to organise ourselves to be
aware, to collect, to archive,

1116
01:03:17,530 --> 01:03:21,029
and also then to serve to the
legal cause in the future.

1117
01:03:21,470 --> 01:03:23,499
And thank you for
your patience.

1118
01:03:23,499 --> 01:03:29,434
[Applause]

1119
01:03:29,690 --> 01:03:32,778
Again, genocide is difficult
to prove because genocide

1120
01:03:32,790 --> 01:03:34,410
should be difficult to commit.

1121
01:03:34,410 --> 01:03:38,609
We should not confuse the
intent with the reasons.

1122
01:03:38,830 --> 01:03:42,559
I mean, because people say,
Israel, we cannot really say

1123
01:03:42,570 --> 01:03:46,739
that Israel wanted to destroy
Gaza, even if it has destroyed

1124
01:03:46,750 --> 01:03:50,739
Gaza, even if it has said,
there are Israeli leaders who

1125
01:03:50,750 --> 01:03:53,358
have ordered the destruction
of Gaza, and general

1126
01:03:53,370 --> 01:03:56,298
commanders who have,
in fact, ordered their

1127
01:03:56,310 --> 01:03:57,539
soldiers, so there has

1128
01:03:57,539 --> 01:04:01,258
been the order, the chain of
command effectively triggered,

1129
01:04:01,270 --> 01:04:03,129
bottom, sorry, top to bottom.

1130
01:04:03,610 --> 01:04:07,098
They say, yeah, but they were
also saying that Israel was

1131
01:04:07,098 --> 01:04:09,531
also saying that they want
to liberate the hostages

1132
01:04:09,531 --> 01:04:11,429
or destroy Hamas,
whatever it means.

1133
01:04:12,330 --> 01:04:16,858
And no, we shouldn't confuse
this because the reasons can

1134
01:04:16,870 --> 01:04:20,358
be many, but have really no
value in the determination

1135
01:04:20,370 --> 01:04:23,389
of intent, which is another
thing, it's the mindset.

1136
01:04:23,690 --> 01:04:28,258
When the mindset is
there to destroy, and the

1137
01:04:28,270 --> 01:04:32,338
genocide shouldn't even be
committed, the incitement

1138
01:04:32,350 --> 01:04:37,779
is sufficient to trigger the
responsibility to prevent.

1139
01:04:38,170 --> 01:04:42,079
And this is where, you know,
when the first person to talk

1140
01:04:42,090 --> 01:04:45,179
about genocide in the context
of what has happened in Gaza

1141
01:04:45,190 --> 01:04:49,559
was Raz Sigal, an Israeli
historian, who said, this is

1142
01:04:49,570 --> 01:04:51,469
a textbook case of genocide.

1143
01:04:52,570 --> 01:04:56,369
And ignorant as I was back
then, I said, oh, come on.

1144
01:04:57,130 --> 01:04:59,719
It's not a textbook case,
because as a good European, I

1145
01:04:59,730 --> 01:05:03,159
knew that the textbook case of
genocide, first, I mean, and

1146
01:05:03,170 --> 01:05:07,938
again, I had seen the failure
to prevent genocide in Rwanda

1147
01:05:07,950 --> 01:05:09,429
and in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

1148
01:05:09,730 --> 01:05:13,378
So my point was, if there are
no crematoria, if there are no

1149
01:05:13,390 --> 01:05:18,978
machetes, if there is no mass
killing, it's not genocide,

1150
01:05:18,990 --> 01:05:21,089
it's not true, it's not true.

1151
01:05:21,210 --> 01:05:26,019
And this is why genocide
has been a niche in legal

1152
01:05:26,030 --> 01:05:28,909
studies for a long time,
and it's no longer that.

1153
01:05:29,070 --> 01:05:32,999
I mean, really, Raz was right
when he said that this is a

1154
01:05:33,010 --> 01:05:36,139
textbook case of genocide,
because it's not just a

1155
01:05:36,150 --> 01:05:38,929
genocide, it's a settler
colonial genocide.

1156
01:05:39,310 --> 01:05:42,838
So the aim is ethnic
cleansing, because the aim

1157
01:05:42,850 --> 01:05:46,619
is to empty the land of
Palestinians, keep on

1158
01:05:46,630 --> 01:05:50,059
advancing Palestinian erasure
so that the land can be

1159
01:05:50,070 --> 01:05:52,599
taken, but also genocidal
acts are being committed

1160
01:05:52,610 --> 01:05:53,489
in the process.

1161
01:05:53,950 --> 01:05:55,869
And it's been said,
and it has been done.

1162
01:05:55,970 --> 01:05:58,670
So this is not a case where
there is no genocidal intent.

1163
01:05:58,670 --> 01:06:02,039
But Raz is also, I mean, I
remember that Raz has been

1164
01:06:02,050 --> 01:06:07,039
one of those scholars calling
me as early as February 2023,

1165
01:06:07,050 --> 01:06:10,079
saying, as I was writing
about the tension and

1166
01:06:10,090 --> 01:06:13,318
mass carcerality, mass
incarceration, and the

1167
01:06:13,330 --> 01:06:18,378
kind of, the systemic and
widespread the nature of

1168
01:06:18,390 --> 01:06:20,499
deprivation of liberty of
the Palestinians.

1169
01:06:21,190 --> 01:06:23,254
And he was saying, but
when are you going to

1170
01:06:23,254 --> 01:06:25,490
look into the genocide
against the Palestinians?

1171
01:06:25,490 --> 01:06:26,560
Imagine my reaction.

1172
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:28,376
But I say, okay,
let's talk about that.

1173
01:06:28,376 --> 01:06:30,978
But then I've realised how
much he was right because as

1174
01:06:30,990 --> 01:06:35,258
a genocide scholar and someone
who has studied the Holocaust

1175
01:06:35,270 --> 01:06:38,219
and other cases of genocide,
he knows that there

1176
01:06:38,230 --> 01:06:39,529
are different steps.

1177
01:06:39,530 --> 01:06:42,679
That genocide is not an act,
it's a process, and it's

1178
01:06:42,690 --> 01:06:45,599
preceded by a number of
things, but there is one

1179
01:06:45,610 --> 01:06:49,659
element that is common,
common across all genocides,

1180
01:06:49,670 --> 01:06:52,458
and wouldn't be possible
if it was not widespread

1181
01:06:52,470 --> 01:06:53,549
among societies.

1182
01:06:54,050 --> 01:06:56,169
It's dehumanisation
of the other.

1183
01:06:56,430 --> 01:06:58,278
So that we do not
see the Palestinians

1184
01:06:58,290 --> 01:06:59,929
today as Palestinians.

1185
01:07:00,950 --> 01:07:05,999
And again, as a European, this
is me taking, please don't

1186
01:07:06,010 --> 01:07:09,838
applaud, don't nod, don't say
anything, hold your breath,

1187
01:07:09,850 --> 01:07:12,179
but I need to say that
because I wouldn't be

1188
01:07:12,190 --> 01:07:13,749
me if I didn't say that.

1189
01:07:14,190 --> 01:07:18,659
But as a European, as an
Italian, I know that the

1190
01:07:18,670 --> 01:07:22,159
genocide of the Jewish people
in this part of the world

1191
01:07:22,170 --> 01:07:25,818
would not have been possible
only for a few monsters

1192
01:07:25,830 --> 01:07:28,978
who had planned the
deportation, the trains,

1193
01:07:28,990 --> 01:07:31,669
the industrialisation, the
horror that has been done.

1194
01:07:32,150 --> 01:07:35,818
Jewish people in this part of
the world, before being sent

1195
01:07:35,830 --> 01:07:40,539
to concentration camps, have
died out of starvation and

1196
01:07:40,550 --> 01:07:45,869
lack of hygiene in ghettos
where they had been locked up.

1197
01:07:46,830 --> 01:07:49,838
We know that the
discrimination started, the

1198
01:07:49,850 --> 01:07:53,179
dehumanisation had already
started when it was possible

1199
01:07:53,190 --> 01:07:56,054
to kick out of their
professions,

1200
01:07:56,054 --> 01:07:58,849
people because they were Jewish.

1201
01:08:00,410 --> 01:08:06,719
Either we do realise that
racism was the root cause

1202
01:08:06,730 --> 01:08:10,898
for the genocide of the Jews,
the Roma, and Sinti, and it's

1203
01:08:10,910 --> 01:08:15,179
ingrained in who we are as
European, I'm sorry, but 500

1204
01:08:15,190 --> 01:08:19,358
years of colonialism have
been predicated upon the idea

1205
01:08:19,370 --> 01:08:23,188
of a superior race, white,
male, Christian, and

1206
01:08:23,189 --> 01:08:25,000
it's patriarchy.

1207
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:25,800
[Applause]

1208
01:08:25,800 --> 01:08:26,900
Either we deal with it,

1209
01:08:26,900 --> 01:08:27,930
No...

1210
01:08:27,930 --> 01:08:30,710
[Applause]

1211
01:08:30,710 --> 01:08:32,489
it's my responsibility, because

1212
01:08:32,500 --> 01:08:36,019
then it's here, I understand
that you cannot talk.

1213
01:08:36,020 --> 01:08:39,459
I mean, I'm not making
comparison, for God's sake.

1214
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:41,978
But also, it's history.

1215
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:45,278
And Germany has
committed two genocides.

1216
01:08:45,500 --> 01:08:47,989
Please don't applaud,
because there is nothing

1217
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:49,419
to applaud to this.

1218
01:08:49,819 --> 01:08:52,398
Germany has committed
two genocides in history.

1219
01:08:53,024 --> 01:08:55,560
[Inaudible]

1220
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:56,309
Oops.

1221
01:08:56,620 --> 01:08:58,419
Okay, that's fine.

1222
01:08:58,880 --> 01:09:00,489
Two are bad enough.

1223
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:04,778
And again, why can't
we talk about that?

1224
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:08,568
Are the Nama and Herero less human?

1225
01:09:09,109 --> 01:09:11,739
Do they deserve less
acknowledgment, do they

1226
01:09:11,750 --> 01:09:13,959
deserve less memory,
do they deserve less

1227
01:09:13,970 --> 01:09:15,319
reparations?

1228
01:09:15,410 --> 01:09:19,259
And again, and another thing, and so
me saying that, probably

1229
01:09:19,270 --> 01:09:21,898
you should say that, the
State of Israel doesn't

1230
01:09:21,910 --> 01:09:24,769
represent all the Jewish
people in the world.

1231
01:09:24,910 --> 01:09:27,449
Otherwise, I wouldn't
understand why you invite me

1232
01:09:27,449 --> 01:09:29,880
and sit with me today, and
so many, I mean, wherever

1233
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,419
I go, I'm invited by Jewish
people first and foremost.

1234
01:09:32,419 --> 01:09:34,489
We need to have the
courage to say that.

1235
01:09:35,330 --> 01:09:38,369
I do not expect every
one of you to say that.

1236
01:09:38,370 --> 01:09:41,678
But those of you who have
an inch of privilege in this

1237
01:09:41,689 --> 01:09:46,739
country, university professors
with tenure, Jewish people

1238
01:09:46,750 --> 01:09:50,318
first and foremost, we need
to say that it's not in our

1239
01:09:50,330 --> 01:09:53,299
name that this can be carried
out because we have not

1240
01:09:53,310 --> 01:09:55,669
been able to prevent the
genocide of the Tutsi,

1241
01:09:55,750 --> 01:09:57,999
we have not been able to
prevent the genocide of

1242
01:09:58,010 --> 01:10:04,469
the Yazidi, or the Rohingya
in Myanmar, or in Bosnia.

1243
01:10:04,470 --> 01:10:07,999
However, however, I really
want this to be the last

1244
01:10:08,010 --> 01:10:09,349
genocide of human history.

1245
01:10:09,550 --> 01:10:12,169
And it's not going to
happen until it's stopped.

1246
01:10:12,470 --> 01:10:14,058
In order for this 
to be stopped,

1247
01:10:14,058 --> 01:10:16,110
it needs to be 
understood and recognised.

1248
01:10:16,110 --> 01:10:17,240
[Wieland] Absolutely.

1249
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:18,750
Thank you very much.

1250
01:10:18,750 --> 01:10:21,839
A perfect point to end, even
if, obviously, many of us

1251
01:10:21,850 --> 01:10:23,109
would like to continue.

1252
01:10:23,310 --> 01:10:28,819
But there are still further
parts of this program, which,

1253
01:10:28,830 --> 01:10:32,459
somewhat amazingly, has been
allowed to proceed this far.

1254
01:10:32,510 --> 01:10:34,849
So let's see if we
make it to the end.

1255
01:10:34,990 --> 01:10:37,839
Yes, so thank you again,
Francesca Albanese.

1256
01:10:38,033 --> 01:10:41,000
[Applause]