WEBVTT

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[Francesca] Just to make sure 
we are safe,

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can you confirm that police
is here to protect all of us?

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[Crowd cheers]

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Good!

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[Crowd cheers]

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[Wieland] So I have the great
pleasure of welcoming

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Francesca Albanese

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[Crowd cheers]

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United Nations Special Rapporteur

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for Human Rights in the 
Occupied Palestinian territories.

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Before I hand over to
Francesca for some preliminary

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remarks I would just like to
inform everyone that

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at the last update

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that I received, we had 1 ,700 
people viewing the live stream.

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[Crowd cheers]

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So this this may be a small
room, but the virtual space

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we are occupying
is a large one.

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So without further ado,

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Francesca please speak to us.

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[Crowd cheers]

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[Francesca] You're not police, right?

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[Crowd laughs]

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Camouflaging okay.

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So I have to admit that about 75

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hours in this country have
made me pretty nervous.

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I can't wait to go back to
peaceful Tunisia

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[Crowd cheers]

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because the situation is bad for freedom
of expression pretty much

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everywhere and still I've
never felt this sense of

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lacking oxygen as I do here.

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So please, please, I know
they're very happy to see me.

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Make sense.

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Yes, but I'm someone who speaks

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of genocide and there is a
genocide ongoing

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and doesn't matter how much
genocide denialism there is,

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we need to be really
aware aware of

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what we need to do all
together because I really want

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to be heard loud and clear
before we start talking about

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what I came to know the most,
genocide, this year.

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I want to say a few things on which I
absolutely don't want to be

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taken wrong and misquoted,

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but of course I
will be misquoted!

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So it is a great pleasure for
me to be with you today

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and I wish to thank DiEM, A Jewish
Voice for a Just Peace in the

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Middle list, I for Palestine
and Gaza Committee

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for their immense work,

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[Crowd cheers]

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Stop it!

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[Crowd laughs]

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for their immense work

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in bringing this 
meeting together

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and for inviting me
to be here in Berlin.

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I'm sure you have the
gratitude of so many for

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creating this platform for
many to come together to speak

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on one of the most urgent
issues of our time.

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Without your courage and
dedication, we would not be

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here today, although, although,
for the venue we must thank

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Jungeveld who has given the
event last-minute asylum

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and of course,

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[Crowd cheers]

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You are unruly!

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and of course,
we have to also

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acknowledge the Israeli
ambassador, pro-Israel

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groups and professional
smearers in Germany,

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a number of German politicians
including the city mayor,

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Berlin police without whose
rentless work and pressure and

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intimidation we would be in
another, much bigger venue.

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I know how you feel.

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I feel it, too, somewhat, even
though the intimidation has

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gotten on my nerves, but
not yet under my skin.

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And with German authorities'
permission, I plan to return,

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as I said, to the safety
of my home in Tunisia

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before this changes.

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We should not fear words.

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We shall fear crimes.

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Those that commit them,
and those who deny them.

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And as we proceed, I must
acknowledge that some of

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the words I will speak
today might be heavy.

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I recognize that many of you
carry significant pain,

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and it is with this awareness that
I ask for your patience and

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understanding as we explore
these difficult subjects.

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Please know that my intention
is not to add that pain,

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but to bring light, healing, and
perhaps a sense of solidarity

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as we move forward together.

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As you are all aware,
my presence in Germany

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these few days has been
controversial for many.

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Universities, the beacon of
free speech, the cradle of

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free debate, where people
can also disagree, right?

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have cancelled events where I
was supposed to give talks or

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lectures without any warning,
let alone an apology.

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That's rude.

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The organizers in many cases
have had to switch venues

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at the last minute, facing
threats, condemnation and

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harassment on the street
and online, hopefully not on site

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as if I were someone
advocating for hate or someone

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wanted by the International
Criminal Court for war crimes

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and crimes against humanity.

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Instead, I'm just a legal
expert appointed by the

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United Nations to document
and report on the violations

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committed by Israel.

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This is what the resolution
creating my mandate says,

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even if I also document the
violations committed by Hamas

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and the Palestinian Authority.

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I'm the eighth special
rapporteur to do this after

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illustrious jurists such as
John Duggar, Richard Folk, and

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Michael Link, and the first
woman to serve in this

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position after 33 years.

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It is in this capacity...

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This is where you applaud.

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[Audience laughs and applauds.]

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I really want to chill a
little bit because it's heavy.

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It is in this capacity
that I came to Berlin.

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I arrived here.

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This is something I'm saying
just to remind everyone that

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I came as a special rapporteur,
still representing

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the United Nations, if there
is an inch of respect

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for this institution that
is left in this country.

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I arrived here after traveling
across Northern Europe and

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being generally welcome,
even where pro-Israel groups

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succeeded to have some cave
in to their pressure and

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mafia-style techniques.

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And I'm shocked to see how
absurd the world that we

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live in has become, where
impartiality to the facts

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and the requirements of
international law generate

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more controversy than
the killing, maiming,

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torturing, raping,
starving, burning alive,

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and entire people as such

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for 16 months and counting,

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and yet, this is the world we live in.

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But so, before getting
into the debate,

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what is impartiality and
what does it mean?

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What is it not?

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Because this is something
that I would like you to carry

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with you after this
wonderful afternoon together.

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Impartiality for human rights
defenders, investigators and

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monitors like myself entails
an obligation to investigate

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and establish the facts
objectively,

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studying everything that is brought
to our knowledge against

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applicable international law.

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Once the assessment is
done, my job is not to be

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equidistant from the parties,
whatever it is,

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but to insist on measures to restore
legality, to undo injustice

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and prevent further abuses.

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In the case of Palestine, it
is overwhelmingly documented

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that Israel commits
intentionally, and as a matter

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of state policy, the gravest
human rights offenses,

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as part of its long-standing
plan to maintain control over

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what Israeli human rights
organization B'Tselem has

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called, quote: 'A regime of 
Jewish supremacy

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from the Jordan River to
the Mediterranean Sea.'

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[Crowd laughs]

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Full stop, end of quote.

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Impartiality cannot be
used as a pompous name

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for indifference and an
elegant name for ignorance.

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Impartiality is not about
maintaining the pretense of

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both sides in the face of
international atrocities,

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of maintaining, as I was saying,
an equidistant position

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between conflicting parties,
even when their positions

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are structurally and
historically unequal.

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When one side occupies,
depredates, and oppresses,

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and the other is being occupied,
depredated, and dispossessed,

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this is a recipe for
disaster and violence.

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impartiality is
not neutrality.

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Neutrality meaning maintaining
an equidistant position

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between conflicting parties
even when their positions

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might not be equal and usually
to deliver life-saving aid.

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It's not my mandate and not
even that of universities

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and not even that
of your politicians.

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Our job is not to stay
neutral, our job is to stay

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truthful to international law.

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This is what all of
us have in common.

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And I stand firmly on
universal human rights

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of respect for life
and human dignity.

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And whenever it is the case
that a state is being allowed

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with impunity to violate these
rights, I must speak up firmly

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on the side of the oppressed.

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If those who found my
presence tonight controversial

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could understand this basic
principle, the difference

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between impartiality and
neutrality, perhaps there

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would be far less controversy
in the first place,

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and of course, there should be
understanding and condemnation

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for what has happened to
Israeli civilians during

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the brutal attack that

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Hamas and other Palestinian
armed groups carried out on

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October 7, 2023, as there
should be understanding

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and condemnation for
the massacres, violence,

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and oppression that the
Palestinians have experienced

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since the Nakba 
and before the Nakba,

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resistance and opposition to
which has certainly

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not spared the Israelis.

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But here we are in an era
where speaking out on human

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rights has become a hateful
act or even a crime where

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truth is a lie and lies the
truth that is used to justify this.

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I mean, I don't see
anyone but I was prepared

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to see more police.

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Orwell's famous proclamation that:
'War is peace, freedom is slavery,

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ignorance is strength'
and that quote has never

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been more true than in
the discourse surrounding

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Israel and Palestine.

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This brings me to the elephant
in the room, the genocide that

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Israel has been allowed to
commit after 56 years of

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unlawful occupation of
Palestine and 77 years since

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the mass ethnic cleansing
of the Nakba began.

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An event that was in ways
irrefamiliar in the present

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day carried out amid
massacres and destructions

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that have been recounted by
its victims, Nakba survivors,

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but also recorded in
the testimonies of its

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perpetrators in some instances
or documented in Israeli

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archives and brought to
light by diligent and

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honest Israeli historians, an
architect who were able to

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access those archives for
a brief period of time

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some 30 years ago.

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For even the most
sophisticated and experienced

00:11:30.970 --> 00:11:33.789
practitioners of doublespeak,
this truth is no longer

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possible to deny.

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I just want to point to one
thing and then we move into

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the discussion regarding,

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I mean, the topic 
of today, genocide.

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In July 2024, the
International Court of Justice

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has recognized beyond any
reasonable doubt that

00:11:50.820 --> 00:11:53.239
the occupation that Israel
maintained in Gaza,

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the West Bank, and East Jerusalem
is unlawful

00:11:56.100 --> 00:11:59.299
and must be relinquished totally
and unconditionally.

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The troops, the military
barracks, the military

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presence, but also
the civilian presence,

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all the settlements
must be dismantled.

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Which doesn't mean that
there will be an uprooting

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of all Jewish people living
in the occupied Palestinian

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territory, but the land is to
be returned to their owners.

00:12:17.540 --> 00:12:20.469
and perhaps the Jewish
Israelis who are there may

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want to rent instead of
stealing and living as

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Palestinians if there
is a Palestinian state.

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[Crowd cheers]

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And this is not even new.

00:12:32.260 --> 00:12:33.899
This is not even new.

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Everyone knew that the
occupation was unlawful and

00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.169
not just for violations of
international law here and

00:12:40.180 --> 00:12:43.889
there because Israel kidnapped
children and adults including

00:12:43.900 --> 00:12:46.369
in the middle of the night
and and put them in jail

00:12:46.380 --> 00:12:51.949
for days, weeks, months, and
years until they confessed

00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:53.889
crimes that they had not committed.

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And not just because of
torturing, demolishing homes,

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killing people arbitrarily,
no, not because of that.

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The occupation is unlawful
because by its very presence

00:13:06.100 --> 00:13:08.149
it prevents the 
Palestinians from enjoying

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the right of self-determination, 
the right to exist as a people,

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free to determine themselves as a
people, which is still being contested

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and it shouldn't be confused
with a two-state solution.

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Because this is the political
consensus that has formed

00:13:24.060 --> 00:13:27.758
so that the Palestinians have the
right, exclusive rights

00:13:27.830 --> 00:13:31.479
to a state, independent state
in the land that remains.

00:13:31.520 --> 00:13:35.989
But nonetheless, any other
rights lose meanings and

00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:38.169
becomes an exercise of
intellectual rhetoric

00:13:38.180 --> 00:13:40.149
without the right of
self-determination.

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So in the face of this
groundbreaking advisory

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opinion which has confirmed
what everyone knew,

00:13:45.540 --> 00:13:48.179
it is the obligation not only of the
German government,

00:13:48.220 --> 00:13:51.691
but every German person, 
including those having businesses,

00:13:51.780 --> 00:13:55.369
living in the settlements, 
working as soldiers in the Israeli

00:13:55.380 --> 00:13:58.279
occupation forces, 
not to do that anymore.

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Otherwise, they might
face consequences.

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And this is where
we are today.

00:14:03.260 --> 00:14:06.809
Instead of working on this
and seeing how to abide by

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this incredibly important
advisory opinion,

00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:14.349
the government of this country
continues to repress

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the critical voices that
ask for accountability.

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[Applause]

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[Wieland] Thank you very much for
those preliminary remarks.

00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:37.189
No doubt we'll get
back to some of those

00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:39.099
points again later.

00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:44.389
But what I wanted to ask you
about, and well, this is the

00:14:44.400 --> 00:14:47.262
title of this part of the
program:

00:14:47.620 --> 00:14:51.179
International Law in the 
Face of the Gaza Genocide.

00:14:51.880 --> 00:14:55.129
And something that's often
been spoken about over the

00:14:55.140 --> 00:15:00.849
last 16 months by yourself and
by many actors of all sorts,

00:15:00.860 --> 00:15:05.422
legal experts, civil society
figures, activists,

00:15:06.980 --> 00:15:11.709
is that the very concept of
international law has been

00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:16.469
under attack because the
genocide has been allowed to

00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.479
take place and measures that

00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:25.109
have been set in motion
to stop it have also not

00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:26.423
achieved that result.

00:15:26.500 --> 00:15:30.409
The world has let it
happen and many feel that

00:15:30.420 --> 00:15:39.619
international law has become
impotent and even though in

00:15:39.630 --> 00:15:44.779
the decades since the United
Nations were founded and

00:15:44.790 --> 00:15:47.399
we had the establishment
of the Geneva Conventions

00:15:47.410 --> 00:15:50.190
and the various pillars of
international law were built up,

00:15:50.190 --> 00:15:52.375
of course this is not
the first time

00:15:52.375 --> 00:15:55.719
that a power
allied with the so-called West

00:15:55.730 --> 00:16:00.359
has chosen not to abide by
international law and recent

00:16:00.359 --> 00:16:03.030
decades have seen many other
cases, the invasion of Iraq,

00:16:03.030 --> 00:16:04.613
Afghanistan, Libya, etc.

00:16:04.790 --> 00:16:08.309
So, how is the situation
different now?

00:16:09.790 --> 00:16:13.779
What additional or greater
damage has been done to

00:16:13.790 --> 00:16:17.339
international law and how
does one continue to work with

00:16:17.350 --> 00:16:22.111
the standard of international
law from now on?

00:16:23.590 --> 00:16:27.989
[Francesca] First of all, let me clarify
a couple of things and then we

00:16:27.989 --> 00:16:30.620
will have the opportunity to
talk about what constitutes

00:16:30.620 --> 00:16:32.659
genocide because
there seems to be much

00:16:32.670 --> 00:16:34.241
confusion in this country.

00:16:34.310 --> 00:16:38.149
So should I say that now or
can we get back to this later?

00:16:38.149 --> 00:16:40.346
[Wieland] I think we can 
get back to it later.

00:16:40.376 --> 00:16:42.672
[Francesca] Perfect, as long
as you say that.

00:16:43.230 --> 00:16:47.639
And so, an international law
is a set of norms that member

00:16:47.650 --> 00:16:52.259
states have agreed upon,
either through treaties

00:16:52.290 --> 00:16:55.939
or that they have developed
as customs, as practice,

00:16:55.950 --> 00:16:59.859
believed to be compliant
with general principles

00:16:59.870 --> 00:17:01.559
of law and humanity.

00:17:02.070 --> 00:17:05.864
So what constitutes
international law

00:17:05.864 --> 00:17:11.659
is a normative framework intended
to prevent violations

00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:13.068
and to correct violations.

00:17:13.230 --> 00:17:15.879
So it's a normative and
remedial, it has a normative

00:17:15.890 --> 00:17:17.678
and remedial function.

00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:24.348
A side of it but complementary
is the system that is there to

00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:29.109
regulate the conduct of states
and so it's the multilateral

00:17:29.120 --> 00:17:35.238
order which is to be regulated
by international norms.

00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:40.689
So while international law has
been selectively applied,

00:17:40.860 --> 00:17:49.629
more or less systemically violated,
today we see the depth of it

00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:52.359
and we see the system
behind it, I believe.

00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:56.536
In the sense that it's clear
that the system has never,

00:17:56.600 --> 00:17:59.549
I mean, the multilateral order,
the General Assembly,

00:17:59.560 --> 00:18:03.579
which is now more democratic than it
was 77 years ago, for example.

00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:07.489
When the United Nations system
was created, it was made

00:18:07.500 --> 00:18:14.219
of about 50, 53 states, and
now it's made of 193 states.

00:18:14.600 --> 00:18:16.439
So clearly, it has changed.

00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:20.219
but the center of power,
it has not changed.

00:18:20.660 --> 00:18:27.859
The system that was birthed
as dominated by the colonial world

00:18:27.990 --> 00:18:30.509
like Europe and
European offsprings,

00:18:31.120 --> 00:18:37.234
like Australia, New Zealand, the
United States and Canada,

00:18:37.320 --> 00:18:40.809
and of course, the first colonies,
the first settler colonial

00:18:40.820 --> 00:18:44.069
realities where so many
genocides had been committed,

00:18:44.080 --> 00:18:47.319
Latin America, Central
and Latin America, sorry,

00:18:47.500 --> 00:18:48.599
Latin America.

00:18:48.760 --> 00:18:51.969
I mean, these were also
part of the system,

00:18:51.980 --> 00:18:54.109
but the center of power
was with the West,

00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:57.395
what we would call today improperly: West,
and remains there.

00:18:57.420 --> 00:19:02.019
So I think that the phase
we live in has exposed how

00:19:02.650 --> 00:19:09.719
unequal the system is,
how it cannot serve as is the

00:19:09.730 --> 00:19:13.039
interest of everyone in
the face of a

00:19:16.220 --> 00:19:23.949
fundamentally now a unipolar order, where
the United States dictates

00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:27.119
pretty much what is to
be done and what's not,

00:19:27.760 --> 00:19:31.279
regardless or even blatantly
against international law.

00:19:31.520 --> 00:19:34.359
So we are at a critical point,
and the system is breaking.

00:19:34.840 --> 00:19:40.152
When we international human 
rights experts have said for years,

00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:42.709
especially this mandate,
it's 20 years that

00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.749
whomever has held this mandate
has said over and over,

00:19:45.760 --> 00:19:46.959
the system is breaking.

00:19:47.110 --> 00:19:49.769
The Occupied Palestinian
Territory is a powder keg

00:19:49.780 --> 00:19:52.829
and it will explode and will take
all the system with it because

00:19:52.840 --> 00:19:55.969
it's a settler colonial
frontier, more violent

00:19:55.980 --> 00:19:56.920
than any other.

00:19:56.920 --> 00:20:00.599
It's not the only form of
colonial domination,

00:20:00.740 --> 00:20:06.309
but it's an active settler colony 
where people are really struggling

00:20:06.320 --> 00:20:09.879
for what settler colonialism
is in its more brutal form.

00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:13.609
One people taking control
of land, of resources,

00:20:13.620 --> 00:20:14.819
pushing other people out.

00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:19.669
Again, and it's the only one
actively, actively militarily,

00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:22.529
politically, financially
supported and enabled

00:20:23.120 --> 00:20:24.569
by Western countries.

00:20:24.790 --> 00:20:30.099
So this is the breaking point
because there are many people

00:20:30.110 --> 00:20:32.659
who identify themselves
with injustice that the

00:20:32.670 --> 00:20:34.801
Palestinians have suffered.

00:20:35.030 --> 00:20:37.459
There are many people who
for the first time realize

00:20:37.470 --> 00:20:41.839
and there is a global
awareness about this

00:20:41.850 --> 00:20:44.159
and dissatisfaction.

00:20:44.430 --> 00:20:48.459
We see in the fragility and
how lonely the Palestinians

00:20:48.470 --> 00:20:54.799
are in the face of all these
powers, our own fragility,

00:20:54.810 --> 00:20:57.619
and this is why so many
stand in solidarity

00:20:57.630 --> 00:20:59.139
with the Palestinians.

00:20:59.170 --> 00:21:01.349
On top of the fact that it's a
simple empathy,

00:21:01.370 --> 00:21:04.820
the fact that what happens to other 
human beings touches us and doesn't

00:21:04.820 --> 00:21:07.979
I mean the fact of seeing
bodies of children

00:21:07.990 --> 00:21:12.979
hanging from the wall
or turned into smithereens

00:21:12.990 --> 00:21:15.779
whatever they are incinerated
in refugee camps

00:21:15.910 --> 00:21:19.899
or in tents, plastic tents if not
buried under the rubble.

00:21:19.910 --> 00:21:23.755
I mean this is something that doesn't
make many people sleep at night

00:21:23.860 --> 00:21:26.669
and it's normal, it's a
good sign it's healthy

00:21:27.128 --> 00:21:31.689
and we shouldn't become idle
in the face of this pain.

00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:33.789
Yeah, so we need to decide.

00:21:33.970 --> 00:21:36.599
Now it's the time, we
are at the turning point

00:21:36.610 --> 00:21:37.730
and we need to decide.

00:21:37.730 --> 00:21:41.159
The system, of course,
will become uglier and more

00:21:41.170 --> 00:21:43.839
resistant and more fierceful,
but because the system

00:21:43.850 --> 00:21:45.040
is being challenged.

00:21:45.430 --> 00:21:50.089
The system of which Israel's
abuses are a symptom.

00:21:51.170 --> 00:21:53.659
And not, yeah, are a symptom.

00:21:54.850 --> 00:21:58.599
So this should be a wake
up call for all of us

00:21:58.610 --> 00:22:00.279
people of conscience.

00:22:00.910 --> 00:22:04.529
I often say a bit rhetorically
but I somewhat believe it.

00:22:04.690 --> 00:22:08.399
I mean in the sense it's not
the case that the UN Charter

00:22:08.410 --> 00:22:11.979
is not just about states'
obligations but it says:

00:22:11.990 --> 00:22:15.039
'we the people' because ultimately,
it's we the people who

00:22:15.050 --> 00:22:18.159
are the guardians of
these values, these norms.

00:22:18.220 --> 00:22:20.899
Human rights, I mean, I know
that people complain a lot

00:22:20.910 --> 00:22:23.204
about international law:
'It serves no purpose.'

00:22:23.530 --> 00:22:25.679
Yeah, because you are
not the ones who had to

00:22:25.690 --> 00:22:27.324
struggle to abolish slavery.

00:22:27.570 --> 00:22:30.159
You're not the ones who had
to struggle to have women's

00:22:30.170 --> 00:22:32.779
rights recognized, even
if I admit we still have

00:22:32.790 --> 00:22:33.919
a lot of work to do.

00:22:34.030 --> 00:22:38.919
But so, there have been so many
struggles that have led to

00:22:38.930 --> 00:22:42.009
the development of human
rights the way they are.

00:22:42.170 --> 00:22:46.719
So while we tend to see
human rights as a tool of

00:22:46.730 --> 00:22:49.619
emancipation and that it's
failing, I want to also

00:22:49.630 --> 00:22:53.303
remind you, if you take a step
back and look at the arc of history

00:22:53.360 --> 00:22:56.679
that these human
rights are first and foremost

00:22:56.690 --> 00:22:59.969
the result of someone else's 
struggle for emancipation.

00:23:00.270 --> 00:23:04.479
And we have grown just too
lazy in this part of the world

00:23:04.490 --> 00:23:07.250
because you see the Palestinians, 
like many other people,

00:23:07.250 --> 00:23:09.110
they don't even have 
the time to think:

00:23:09.110 --> 00:23:10.639
shall I fight or not?

00:23:10.910 --> 00:23:12.449
Fight peacefully.

00:23:12.690 --> 00:23:15.029
I mean, because many
people have no choice.

00:23:15.030 --> 00:23:17.719
If you have the choice,
it means that you have

00:23:17.730 --> 00:23:20.069
privilege that you
have chosen not to use.

00:23:20.490 --> 00:23:22.306
And it's your choice,
but trust me,

00:23:22.360 --> 00:23:24.089
everything is in line right now.

00:23:24.089 --> 00:23:24.789
It's coming.

00:23:24.790 --> 00:23:29.873
The way repression works
in this country is scary,

00:23:30.210 --> 00:23:33.789
should really, should scare
the hell out of people.

00:23:33.840 --> 00:23:35.609
And the fact that you don't...

00:23:35.630 --> 00:23:36.934
Thank you.

00:23:37.324 --> 00:23:38.316
[Inaudible]

00:23:38.646 --> 00:23:41.009
[Audience claps]

00:23:41.330 --> 00:23:45.339
No, and the fact that
people don't register

00:23:45.350 --> 00:23:46.689
how serious it is.

00:23:46.690 --> 00:23:52.799
The fact that media continue
to be as pathetic as they are.

00:23:52.810 --> 00:23:55.319
Again, it's something that,
I don't know,

00:23:55.330 --> 00:23:58.349
I'll try to help by continuing to
tell what I've seen here.

00:23:58.570 --> 00:24:02.419
But again, I've been in many
countries, including countries

00:24:02.430 --> 00:24:05.979
that are lectured by Germany
about freedom of

00:24:05.990 --> 00:24:07.654
- freedom of oppression -

00:24:07.814 --> 00:24:11.459
[Audience laughs]

00:24:11.459 --> 00:24:12.200
Sorry.

00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:13.960
[Weiland] Appropriate 
choice of word.

00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:15.934
[Francesca] No, freedom
of expression and

00:24:15.934 --> 00:24:16.859
[Audience laughs]

00:24:16.859 --> 00:24:17.649
freedom of...

00:24:17.659 --> 00:24:19.809
It was not even
the worst that came out,

00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:23.050
the worst lapses that came
out of my mouth today.

00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:27.189
However, freedom of expression
and freedom of assembly,

00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:30.569
I mean, countries that have been
lectured by Germany about how

00:24:30.580 --> 00:24:33.789
important these rights are
and who are really struggling

00:24:33.800 --> 00:24:35.456
to guarantee these rights.

00:24:35.456 --> 00:24:38.141
I mean, don't want to guarantee
these rights to citizens,

00:24:38.141 --> 00:24:39.820
don't even make a
mystery out of it.

00:24:39.820 --> 00:24:47.048
And still, I've experienced
much less intimidation

00:24:47.700 --> 00:24:49.574
and fear that here.

00:24:49.784 --> 00:24:52.039
So I again, I'm with you

00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:56.124
and yeah, let's brace for
what happens next.

00:24:57.355 --> 00:25:02.515
[Appause]

00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:06.249
[Weiland] What I want to get out a bit
because I think this is also

00:25:06.260 --> 00:25:08.969
something that really many
people in the world have been

00:25:08.980 --> 00:25:13.879
asking themselves or
asking other people is:

00:25:15.340 --> 00:25:19.889
if international law wasn't
able to prevent this genocide,

00:25:20.670 --> 00:25:25.049
if there were not the
necessary mechanisms

00:25:25.060 --> 00:25:26.525
of enforcement

00:25:26.655 --> 00:25:29.729
really to stop the people
who are committing it,

00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:34.954
what does it still offer?

00:25:35.344 --> 00:25:37.179
[Francesca] Yeah,
so as I was saying,

00:25:37.230 --> 00:25:39.991
there has been a phase where 
human rights protection

00:25:39.991 --> 00:25:42.105
of individual rights was not there.

00:25:42.105 --> 00:25:44.669
We are lucky because
we have those rights.

00:25:44.752 --> 00:25:47.800
Those rights also allow 
us to keep some sanity

00:25:47.800 --> 00:25:49.719
and saying this is 
completely wrong.

00:25:49.750 --> 00:25:51.344
Now, there are the standards,

00:25:51.344 --> 00:25:53.390
there are the law 
enforcement mechanisms

00:25:53.390 --> 00:25:57.649
that in many respects have
never worked for Palestine.

00:25:57.910 --> 00:26:01.009
Palestine has always been
the big exception

00:26:01.320 --> 00:26:04.049
and for a number of reasons.

00:26:04.049 --> 00:26:08.450
We don't need to unpack all
the problems of the world now.

00:26:13.010 --> 00:26:14.275
[Wieland] Number 2?

00:26:14.335 --> 00:26:15.680
[Francesca] No, I'm serious.

00:26:15.810 --> 00:26:25.179
But the thing is that, when
governments do not enforce,

00:26:25.190 --> 00:26:30.519
do not abide by international
law, next in line is

00:26:30.530 --> 00:26:34.819
like watchdogs that are the
civil society, NGOs are the

00:26:34.830 --> 00:26:37.963
natural watchdogs of what
the government does,

00:26:38.030 --> 00:26:39.814
unless there is an ombudsman.

00:26:39.990 --> 00:26:43.799
There are protection
mechanisms at the

00:26:43.810 --> 00:26:44.839
country level.

00:26:45.210 --> 00:26:47.419
Otherwise, there is the
international...

00:26:47.430 --> 00:26:49.669
No, there are the 
courts, tribunals.

00:26:49.810 --> 00:26:52.289
In fact, in other countries,
these are working.

00:26:52.470 --> 00:26:55.439
These are mechanisms that
have been activated through

00:26:55.450 --> 00:26:58.599
strategic litigation of civil
society who have sued the

00:26:58.610 --> 00:27:02.619
government for complicity in
crimes and for transferring

00:27:02.630 --> 00:27:03.869
weapons to Israel

00:27:03.869 --> 00:27:05.751
at the time, it was
committing genocide.

00:27:05.751 --> 00:27:10.099
and I hope more and more there
needs to be scrutiny of what

00:27:10.110 --> 00:27:18.579
universities, pension funds,
banks, and any other private actors

00:27:18.620 --> 00:27:22.739
who contributes in any
possible ways, big or small,

00:27:22.750 --> 00:27:27.180
to the unlawfulness of
Israel's presence

00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:29.229
in the occupied 
Palestinian territory,

00:27:29.300 --> 00:27:31.093
they must be
held accountable.

00:27:31.510 --> 00:27:34.339
And you know, in a country
like that, that is not easy,

00:27:34.350 --> 00:27:36.879
because I hear that this
is something that has been

00:27:36.890 --> 00:27:40.869
tried already and there
has been a bit of pushback.

00:27:41.010 --> 00:27:44.119
I hope it's not the case
because really I had a again

00:27:44.130 --> 00:27:47.019
I'm someone who has grown
a thinking of Germany as an

00:27:47.030 --> 00:27:49.619
example because of its legal
scholars and because of

00:27:49.630 --> 00:27:51.469
its courageous judges.

00:27:51.810 --> 00:27:54.959
I'm not in again, studying 
Palestinian refugees

00:27:54.970 --> 00:27:57.799
in international
law writing a book about

00:27:57.810 --> 00:27:59.789
Palestinian refugees
in international law.

00:27:59.789 --> 00:28:02.352
I would like to remind that
it was German courts which

00:28:02.352 --> 00:28:05.339
allowed to develop the
jurisprudence that has

00:28:05.350 --> 00:28:08.799
existed on how to protect
Palestinian refugees

00:28:08.810 --> 00:28:11.289
outside the Middle East.

00:28:11.510 --> 00:28:14.649
So even in Germany, it
has never been that bad.

00:28:15.010 --> 00:28:18.009
You can still go back
to a place of sanity.

00:28:18.450 --> 00:28:21.669
So courts have to be
activated, but also

00:28:23.289 --> 00:28:28.423
certain struggles are not 
brought to court,

00:28:28.754 --> 00:28:32.799
cannot not be fought

00:28:35.090 --> 00:28:37.499
- peacefully fought of course -

00:28:37.510 --> 00:28:39.529
without the support of 
the public opinion.

00:28:40.050 --> 00:28:43.220
Because eventually judges
also read newspapers.

00:28:43.630 --> 00:28:46.429
And the problem is if the
debate is so toxic,

00:28:46.660 --> 00:28:50.079
if the media's work is primarily
not about telling the facts

00:28:50.090 --> 00:28:52.659
let alone the legal
qualifications,

00:28:52.730 --> 00:28:59.729
but about manufacturing consensus
so as to maintain a certain narrative

00:28:59.790 --> 00:29:01.299
a certain discourse,

00:29:01.310 --> 00:29:02.783
it's very complicated.

00:29:03.090 --> 00:29:07.999
So what is left is there are
international mechanisms

00:29:08.010 --> 00:29:10.657
that scrutinize the 
performance of states,

00:29:10.657 --> 00:29:15.189
but again, I'm not 
starry-eyed on this.

00:29:15.330 --> 00:29:19.219
Right now, it sounds like
an emergency,

00:29:19.230 --> 00:29:23.625
and in time of emergency, 
you don't go into a long-term plan,

00:29:23.690 --> 00:29:24.999
if you see what I mean.

00:29:24.999 --> 00:29:27.759
So I do think that most
of the work is to be done,

00:29:27.770 --> 00:29:31.919
of course, internationally,
eliciting solidarity from others,

00:29:31.930 --> 00:29:35.519
eliciting scrutiny,
because there is, again,

00:29:35.530 --> 00:29:38.659
there is a sense that in Germany,
things are bad,

00:29:39.730 --> 00:29:44.979
but now, I can tell you, if I'm shocked, 
if I'm that shocked

00:29:45.040 --> 00:29:47.409
I can tell you, there is no 
real understanding

00:29:47.409 --> 00:29:49.191
of what's going on 
in this country,

00:29:49.230 --> 00:29:52.646
and I'm afraid that 
this will continue to spread.

00:29:54.080 --> 00:29:56.829
So, yeah, many more people
should talk about that,

00:29:56.829 --> 00:29:59.329
many more people should ask
your government questions

00:29:59.340 --> 00:30:01.819
and the subsequent
government questions.

00:30:02.180 --> 00:30:06.169
So it's a struggle that
needs to be continued

00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:09.642
on a multi-fronts level.

00:30:10.180 --> 00:30:11.824
[Wieland] You said it's about...

00:30:11.864 --> 00:30:14.160
[Francesca] Just one second, 
by the way, the ICJ

00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:16.489
and the ICC, because then
it seems that nothing

00:30:16.500 --> 00:30:18.380
is happening at the
international level.

00:30:18.380 --> 00:30:21.219
While international justice
is very slow, it's moving.

00:30:21.220 --> 00:30:23.549
I mean, for the first time,
and it would have been

00:30:23.560 --> 00:30:28.519
unimaginable years ago, 
where in this country,

00:30:28.540 --> 00:30:31.829
like many other, including my country,
was even impossible to say

00:30:31.840 --> 00:30:38.039
apartheid, let alone genocide,
and despite the difficulties,

00:30:38.260 --> 00:30:43.989
now, the ICC has indicted two
Israeli leaders, one active,

00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:48.189
the prime minister, and the other, 
the former minister of defense

00:30:48.260 --> 00:30:50.509
so they are wanted
by the ICC, and hopefully,

00:30:50.520 --> 00:30:52.422
I think that there should
be many more,

00:30:52.422 --> 00:30:55.779
because the colonization has been
ongoing for a long time.

00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.809
And the International Court
of Justice is looking at

00:31:00.390 --> 00:31:03.039
genocide in two cases.

00:31:03.260 --> 00:31:05.689
Genocide in the Occupied
Palestinian Territory,

00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:10.849
both in the case initiated by South
Africa versus Germany, sorry,

00:31:10.860 --> 00:31:14.709
Israel, and, sorry guys,
I am on two hours sleep,

00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:18.929
so be patient, and I was
quite sleep-deprived,

00:31:18.940 --> 00:31:21.819
and Nicaragua versus Germany.

00:31:22.080 --> 00:31:25.609
So your country is brought
before an international

00:31:25.620 --> 00:31:28.529
court of justice because
of its support to

00:31:28.540 --> 00:31:30.101
the genocide in Gaza.

00:31:30.800 --> 00:31:34.209
[Wieland] You actually just
mentioned the ICC warrants,

00:31:34.220 --> 00:31:35.929
which I wanted to ask you about.

00:31:37.360 --> 00:31:41.379
On January 27th, International
Holocaust Remembrance Day,

00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:44.759
originally there was a
plan for Netanyahu

00:31:44.770 --> 00:31:48.839
to go to Auschwitz for a
commemoration celebration.

00:31:50.710 --> 00:31:56.334
And in the end he didn't, a
junior member of government went

00:31:57.959 --> 00:32:01.379
but there was obviously
much controversy about it,

00:32:01.390 --> 00:32:05.559
and the Polish government
said quite brazenly that

00:32:05.570 --> 00:32:07.049
they would allow him to come.

00:32:07.130 --> 00:32:09.029
They would not
enforce the warrant.

00:32:09.950 --> 00:32:11.925
It wasn't put to the test
in the end,

00:32:11.925 --> 00:32:14.568
but that's what they said in front
of the whole world.

00:32:14.748 --> 00:32:21.844
The other week, the unfortunately
most likely next chancellor

00:32:21.970 --> 00:32:25.498
in this country, Friedrich Merz, 
conservative leader

00:32:26.270 --> 00:32:31.859
said that if there was
a plan for Netanyahu to come

00:32:31.870 --> 00:32:34.920
to Germany, then of course he
would not be arrested,

00:32:35.830 --> 00:32:38.479
that these warrants
mean nothing.

00:32:39.509 --> 00:32:42.649
Now, of course, one could
say this is all hot air,

00:32:42.660 --> 00:32:45.479
but what could be done?

00:32:45.520 --> 00:32:46.569
What would happen?

00:32:47.020 --> 00:32:51.229
[Francesca] Well, you see, without even
bothering international law,

00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:56.029
is it normal that someone who
is not even in function yet

00:32:56.040 --> 00:33:01.889
or might have governmental
function steps into the realm

00:33:01.900 --> 00:33:05.019
of competence that belongs
to the justice system?

00:33:05.020 --> 00:33:08.449
It's not up to government
officials to say whether

00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:13.929
someone will be arrested
or not, based on the

00:33:13.940 --> 00:33:16.409
determination, on an
investigation that has

00:33:16.420 --> 00:33:19.719
been carried out by the
International Criminal Court.

00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:23.669
I mean, you see, we are
completely dismantling

00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:27.432
the system that we
have so hardly...

00:33:27.560 --> 00:33:31.289
I mean, with so much
sacrifice and political

00:33:31.300 --> 00:33:32.659
investment built.

00:33:33.150 --> 00:33:34.179
Out of what?

00:33:34.320 --> 00:33:35.880
Seriously, out of what?

00:33:35.940 --> 00:33:43.149
Like, this alliance among
politicians who tend

00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:46.949
to protect each other
when one commits crimes

00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:49.805
and end up committing
crimes all together.

00:33:50.450 --> 00:33:52.139
Now I'm getting
arrested, yeah.

00:33:52.280 --> 00:33:55.019
In south of Italy has
a very specific name.

00:33:56.330 --> 00:33:57.936
I'm not going to say that.

00:33:58.510 --> 00:34:01.189
But this is not normal.

00:34:01.650 --> 00:34:05.759
This is non-normal, the
intimidation against human

00:34:05.770 --> 00:34:09.438
rights defenders, lawyers,
scholars, the pressure in

00:34:09.449 --> 00:34:13.178
university in order not
to have an honest debate,

00:34:13.190 --> 00:34:18.566
frankly, about 60,000 people
plus that have been killed

00:34:21.260 --> 00:34:25.108
without, again, without
denying that crimes have been

00:34:25.120 --> 00:34:28.148
committed against Israelis,
absolutely, no one

00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:29.500
has ever denied that,

00:34:29.500 --> 00:34:32.329
I have been condemning crimes
against civilians because

00:34:32.340 --> 00:34:34.788
my red line is that a
civilian is a civilian,

00:34:34.788 --> 00:34:35.980
and so it's untouchable.

00:34:35.980 --> 00:34:39.789
It's the responsibility of the
government and of the states

00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:41.176
to respond for crimes.

00:34:41.176 --> 00:34:43.560
But here's the responsibility
of Germany as well.

00:34:43.560 --> 00:34:45.307
What is left to
the Palestinians?

00:34:45.600 --> 00:34:47.948
What is left to the
Palestinians not to be

00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:50.264
erased in the little that
remains of their land?

00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:52.708
The guardians of the
self-determination

00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:55.138
of the Palestinians
are member states.

00:34:55.518 --> 00:34:56.787
[Applause]

00:34:57.350 --> 00:35:06.397
What has Germany done
throughout 2023 when 12 pogroms,

00:35:06.580 --> 00:35:10.438
according to how they
have been defined by many,

00:35:10.450 --> 00:35:13.079
including in Israel, have
been carried out against

00:35:13.090 --> 00:35:18.278
defenseless Palestinian
villages by violent, armed,

00:35:18.290 --> 00:35:22.559
ideological settlers,
escorted, as usual,

00:35:22.570 --> 00:35:24.199
by the Israeli army.

00:35:25.230 --> 00:35:30.619
And again, homes and cars and
other possessions have been

00:35:30.630 --> 00:35:34.559
incinerated and so orchards,
and Palestinians have been

00:35:34.570 --> 00:35:36.309
beaten up and terrorized.

00:35:36.720 --> 00:35:37.869
Where was Germany?

00:35:37.890 --> 00:35:41.139
And Germany knows, not because
necessarily your government

00:35:41.150 --> 00:35:43.478
has to read the
human rights reports,

00:35:43.490 --> 00:35:47.921
but because it has a diplomatic
presence in the

00:35:47.921 --> 00:35:49.410
occupied Palestinian territory.

00:35:49.410 --> 00:35:51.809
And everyone knows what's
going on in the

00:35:51.809 --> 00:35:53.290
occupied Palestinian territory.

00:35:53.290 --> 00:35:56.579
And everyone knows the crimes
that Israel has been committed

00:35:56.590 --> 00:35:58.489
with impunity for decades.

00:35:58.890 --> 00:36:04.318
So the Palestinians have been
persecuted, abused, oppressed,

00:36:04.330 --> 00:36:09.568
killed, blamed, smeared,
and in the face of this we

00:36:09.580 --> 00:36:10.959
cannot even talk about that?

00:36:11.780 --> 00:36:13.629
I mean, again, this
is not my problem.

00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:17.429
I mean, thank God that I'm
not that sensitive that

00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:19.419
someone cancels it.

00:36:21.520 --> 00:36:26.749
And again, I talk, and I take
it personally, I said: As long

00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:30.469
as they pay the hotel room
for which they invited me.

00:36:30.569 --> 00:36:31.608
That's fine.

00:36:32.530 --> 00:36:33.907
The problem is yours.

00:36:34.290 --> 00:36:36.719
This is the country you
live in and your fellow

00:36:36.730 --> 00:36:38.078
citizens live in.

00:36:38.290 --> 00:36:40.824
So, and it's very serious.

00:36:41.470 --> 00:36:42.839
[Wieland] Certainly is.

00:36:43.640 --> 00:36:44.625
Thank you.

00:36:44.752 --> 00:36:51.077
[Applause]

00:36:51.170 --> 00:36:54.458
I'm just looking a bit at
the time and we wanted to

00:36:54.470 --> 00:36:57.049
give a bit of space for
people to ask questions.

00:36:57.550 --> 00:37:00.099
No doubt there'll be many
questions and not every

00:37:00.110 --> 00:37:01.969
question can be taken.

00:37:01.970 --> 00:37:07.418
But you said that you also
wanted to share some points

00:37:07.430 --> 00:37:08.909
about genocide earlier.

00:37:09.130 --> 00:37:11.765
[Francesca] Yes, very briefly,
as much as I can.

00:37:12.490 --> 00:37:17.478
Because it's very important
to remind ourselves of what

00:37:17.490 --> 00:37:22.569
genocide is and what the
risk of genocide triggers.

00:37:22.710 --> 00:37:24.815
It's very important
in this country,

00:37:25.670 --> 00:37:31.298
because it's genocide
is not defined by personal

00:37:31.310 --> 00:37:33.978
opinions and personal
histories no matter how

00:37:33.990 --> 00:37:38.358
painful they are and there is
no question, no question that

00:37:39.190 --> 00:37:43.796
Germany has a lot to atone
for for the genocides it has committed.

00:37:44.020 --> 00:37:48.479
And at the same time,
genocide today,

00:37:48.555 --> 00:37:50.509
what constitutes genocide

00:37:50.540 --> 00:37:53.745
is written in an international treaty.

00:37:54.130 --> 00:37:57.338
What constitutes genocide is
acts of killing against the

00:37:57.350 --> 00:38:01.778
members of a group, infliction
of severe mental or physical

00:38:01.790 --> 00:38:04.478
harm to members of the group,
the creation of conditions

00:38:04.490 --> 00:38:08.458
of life calculated to lead
to the physical destruction

00:38:08.470 --> 00:38:15.318
of members of the group
and prevent, thank you,

00:38:15.330 --> 00:38:17.589
prevention of birth and

00:38:17.590 --> 00:38:19.414
the transfer of children.

00:38:19.894 --> 00:38:25.898
So you see, I hear criticism
like in the UK,

00:38:25.910 --> 00:38:27.980
for example, look at the
numbers of killing

00:38:27.980 --> 00:38:30.707
as killing 70,000
people was not bad.

00:38:31.470 --> 00:38:34.499
Again, I often ask myself,
what kind of monsters

00:38:34.510 --> 00:38:35.732
have we become?

00:38:36.030 --> 00:38:41.039
But also the brutality of the
attack, the way everything has

00:38:41.050 --> 00:38:44.828
been destroyed, in a way, as
we will have the chance to talk

00:38:46.370 --> 00:38:49.938
in a way that has led
to conditions calculated to

00:38:49.950 --> 00:38:51.762
destroy the Palestinians.

00:38:51.782 --> 00:38:54.019
But the thing is that in
order to have genocide,

00:38:54.030 --> 00:38:56.049
it's not sufficient to
commit these crimes.

00:38:56.070 --> 00:38:59.599
The crimes have to be
committed with intent,

00:38:59.610 --> 00:39:04.363
with the determination to
destroy the group as such.

00:39:05.050 --> 00:39:09.569
And people say it's very
difficult to prove intent.

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:10.959
Yes, you know why?

00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:13.830
Because it's very difficult to
commit, I mean, it's difficult

00:39:13.830 --> 00:39:16.630
to prove genocide because it
should be difficult to commit

00:39:16.630 --> 00:39:19.861
genocide in 2024 or in 2025.

00:39:20.980 --> 00:39:23.738
It shouldn't be possible
because in the system,

00:39:23.850 --> 00:39:27.708
there are some check and balances
in a system that calls itself

00:39:27.720 --> 00:39:30.869
democratic where there is
a rule of law system

00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:32.529
with the separation of power.

00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:35.849
I mean, you might have crazy
government officials making

00:39:35.860 --> 00:39:38.729
genocidal incitements and
say: starve them all,

00:39:38.850 --> 00:39:44.453
kill them all, they are all
animals, even the kids.

00:39:44.860 --> 00:39:47.409
I mean, Germany is not the
first time where this has

00:39:47.420 --> 00:39:50.588
happened because I've read
the Nuremberg Trials Act

00:39:50.600 --> 00:39:53.309
and children were seen
as a security threat.

00:39:55.670 --> 00:39:58.758
But there might be, 
there might be,

00:39:59.310 --> 00:40:02.099
I mean, cabinet, war cabinet
ministers saying that.

00:40:02.240 --> 00:40:06.749
And then, what are the other
cabinet ministers doing

00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:08.280
in the face of this?

00:40:08.350 --> 00:40:12.909
What are the MPs, the members
of the Knesset, what have they

00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:17.910
done to intervene, to stop
this, this incitement?

00:40:18.620 --> 00:40:21.749
What has the judiciary done
when the International Court

00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:25.389
of Justice recognised the risk
of genocide, ordered Israel to

00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:31.068
take measures to stop carrying
out its military operations

00:40:31.080 --> 00:40:34.119
in a way that could result in
genocidal attacks,

00:40:34.190 --> 00:40:39.413
as it had been doing, 
and had Israel complied

00:40:39.490 --> 00:40:41.559
with the ICJ provisional measures

00:40:41.560 --> 00:40:45.604
of January 2024, we wouldn't
be here today, probably.

00:40:46.020 --> 00:40:48.859
And what has the
judiciary done?

00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:52.168
Has the judiciary in Israel
investigated any of the

00:40:52.180 --> 00:40:56.779
people, senior officials of
Israel who have been named

00:40:56.820 --> 00:41:02.269
in the provisional measures, 
in the text of the court that

00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:05.949
accompanied in the provisional
measures, that system has

00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:10.249
proven that being a reflex
of the enabling environment

00:41:10.260 --> 00:41:12.449
that Israel as a state was.

00:41:13.500 --> 00:41:15.890
And the intent has been,
it's not even that we need

00:41:15.890 --> 00:41:18.999
to dig to find intent,
there is direct intent.

00:41:19.260 --> 00:41:24.208
Because when Netanyahu and
others have ordered, again,

00:41:24.220 --> 00:41:29.849
starvation, no water,
no fuel, no electricity,

00:41:29.860 --> 00:41:33.319
no food, no food.

00:41:34.140 --> 00:41:38.889
Of course, this would lead
to conditions calculated to

00:41:38.900 --> 00:41:43.088
bring about the destruction
of a group or members

00:41:43.100 --> 00:41:45.919
of the group as such
identified as Palestinians.

00:41:46.160 --> 00:41:49.148
So in the face of this,
there should have been an

00:41:49.160 --> 00:41:52.028
obligation, as I said, to
prevent because the convention

00:41:52.040 --> 00:41:58.188
on genocide is not just
about the punishment of

00:41:58.200 --> 00:41:59.357
the crime of genocide.

00:41:59.357 --> 00:42:03.588
creates for each state,
especially influential

00:42:03.600 --> 00:42:06.369
states who are providing
support, an obligation

00:42:06.380 --> 00:42:08.339
to prevent and stop.

00:42:08.620 --> 00:42:13.628
And again, in April 2024,
in Nicaragua versus Germany,

00:42:13.640 --> 00:42:16.688
the court reminded Germany
and other member states to

00:42:16.700 --> 00:42:20.688
intervene by not transferring
weapons to states who might be

00:42:20.700 --> 00:42:23.929
committing not just genocidal
acts, but violations of

00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:26.939
international humanitarian
law, including war crimes.

00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:31.939
So the killing of 17 ,000
children, what is it?

00:42:32.040 --> 00:42:35.199
This is what journalists
should ask your Chancellor.

00:42:35.560 --> 00:42:37.969
Because again, it's not
about his personal opinion,

00:42:37.980 --> 00:42:39.319
which I respect very much.

00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:44.088
But it doesn't respond to
this question out of personal

00:42:44.100 --> 00:42:45.359
commitment, I imagine.

00:42:45.520 --> 00:42:48.300
But as the chancellor of this
country, which has obligation

00:42:48.300 --> 00:42:49.469
under international law.

00:42:49.660 --> 00:42:55.068
And the way Germany is evading
its obligations and acting

00:42:55.080 --> 00:42:57.829
in a way that is prohibited
under international

00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.659
law cannot be hidden.

00:43:01.080 --> 00:43:02.365
This is the reality.

00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:06.789
That's an appropriate note
to end on before we open

00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:07.880
it up to the audience.

00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:10.608
We are representatives of
Students for Palestine, FU,

00:43:10.620 --> 00:43:14.449
and also students from the
not-so-free university here

00:43:14.460 --> 00:43:17.969
in Berlin that cancelled
your event tomorrow, so we

00:43:17.980 --> 00:43:20.468
are very happy to see you
and to ask our questions.

00:43:20.468 --> 00:43:23.528
In a recent viral video,
you rightfully criticized

00:43:23.540 --> 00:43:26.099
the German state and the
situation this country is in.

00:43:26.500 --> 00:43:29.349
You are also aware of the
protests and the repression

00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:30.399
we are experiencing.

00:43:30.860 --> 00:43:33.210
Our question would be, how
can we stand up against

00:43:33.210 --> 00:43:36.929
such state repression,
and who can we trust when

00:43:36.940 --> 00:43:38.185
it comes to our rights?

00:43:38.620 --> 00:43:41.048
I mean, we are protesting
and boycotting, but

00:43:41.060 --> 00:43:42.399
what else can we do?

00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:47.088
Maybe you are aware of this,
I think we tried to convey a

00:43:47.100 --> 00:43:51.989
very comprehensive report on
the collaborations of Freie

00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:56.309
Universität with a series
of Israeli institutions and

00:43:56.320 --> 00:44:00.108
universities which we think
are in very clear breach

00:44:00.120 --> 00:44:03.559
of international law and
morality as such too.

00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:07.389
To give one example, the Freie
Universität is sending its

00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:10.028
students very often without
the knowledge where it's

00:44:10.040 --> 00:44:12.880
specifically sending and what
kind of situation it's sending

00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:16.608
these students to exchange
programs for example with the

00:44:16.620 --> 00:44:20.048
Hebrew University which has
its students hostels in East

00:44:20.060 --> 00:44:22.499
Jerusalem on which we think is

00:44:22.500 --> 00:44:27.329
an equal illegal settlement and
we would like if you could say

00:44:27.340 --> 00:44:31.869
a few words on what you think
are the obligations of German

00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:35.399
universities, in particular
FU regarding such cases.

00:44:35.620 --> 00:44:38.608
We also would like to forward
a question for later to Eyal

00:44:38.620 --> 00:44:43.329
already, what he thinks, as
a scholar originally from

00:44:43.340 --> 00:44:47.249
Israel, what the political
impact of such campaigns

00:44:47.260 --> 00:44:50.369
is also in order to break
the normalisation of

00:44:50.380 --> 00:44:51.859
occupation and apartheid.

00:44:52.660 --> 00:44:57.068
And to give another example
on this, the university's law

00:44:57.080 --> 00:45:01.548
faculty, where I am a student
at currently, has a couple of

00:45:01.560 --> 00:45:04.648
programs running, but one of
them is called, Human Rights

00:45:04.660 --> 00:45:08.708
Under Pressure, and it
advertises with experiencing

00:45:08.720 --> 00:45:12.188
and researching these
human rights under pressure

00:45:12.200 --> 00:45:13.539
in the field, and is

00:45:13.540 --> 00:45:19.048
sending programs very often
to Israel and the occupied

00:45:19.060 --> 00:45:22.648
territories, and as I think
Francesca has been made

00:45:22.660 --> 00:45:26.249
aware of by a letter that
FU professors from the law

00:45:26.260 --> 00:45:32.289
department wrote, yeah, it is,
you know, this normalisation

00:45:32.300 --> 00:45:34.759
is happening through these
kinds of corporations.

00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:38.068
Anyways, thanks for your
attention, we will probably

00:45:38.080 --> 00:45:47.309
tomorrow upload the report
on bds-fu.de, bds-fu.de,

00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:50.839
and try to support the
campaign if you want to.

00:45:51.744 --> 00:45:56.654
[Applause]

00:45:56.710 --> 00:46:00.378
I would also like to really
beg for your indulgence in the

00:46:00.390 --> 00:46:04.099
sense that, after all, I mean,
I'm very happy to be received

00:46:04.110 --> 00:46:10.159
by so much warmth and
expectations, but also I would

00:46:10.170 --> 00:46:13.679
like you to keep realistic
expectations on what

00:46:13.690 --> 00:46:15.669
can come from me, in
the sense I'm really

00:46:15.670 --> 00:46:18.478
just a human rights lawyer
who's trying to do the right

00:46:18.490 --> 00:46:22.219
thing, no more than that, and
I'm sorry that it's a rare

00:46:22.230 --> 00:46:26.278
commodity in this era, but
I don't know, sometimes I

00:46:26.290 --> 00:46:30.499
just don't know, because let
me tell you, I think that

00:46:30.510 --> 00:46:33.349
what the universities
are doing is wrong.

00:46:34.030 --> 00:46:36.709
It's so wrong that it should
be brought to justice.

00:46:37.310 --> 00:46:41.099
University cannot have
partnerships with anything

00:46:41.110 --> 00:46:43.429
that has to do with
the settlements.

00:46:43.790 --> 00:46:46.378
Cannot have partnership,
but really we are being

00:46:46.390 --> 00:46:50.039
conservative here because at
the time of apartheid South

00:46:50.050 --> 00:46:54.199
Africa, it's not that we were
going to see how to establish

00:46:54.210 --> 00:46:57.818
or cut relations with Israel
just in the limit of the

00:46:57.830 --> 00:47:01.938
Bantustan, where South
Africa was segregating

00:47:01.950 --> 00:47:04.299
the black South Africans.

00:47:04.370 --> 00:47:07.579
I mean, if Israel commits
crimes that should lead to

00:47:07.590 --> 00:47:12.019
accountability and justice
360 degrees, so I'm even

00:47:12.030 --> 00:47:16.219
uncomfortable as a lawyer to
have to split the hair and

00:47:16.230 --> 00:47:18.509
say the settlements and
not the settlements.

00:47:18.790 --> 00:47:21.958
Maya Wind, an Israeli scholar,
has done incredible work

00:47:21.970 --> 00:47:23.769
on the responsibility
of universities.

00:47:23.770 --> 00:47:27.938
As such, Israeli universities
explaining why it's wrong

00:47:27.950 --> 00:47:32.458
today, in 2025, to maintain
partnership with Israeli

00:47:32.470 --> 00:47:36.958
universities who are part
of Israel's infrastructure,

00:47:36.970 --> 00:47:41.499
military and surveillance
and oppression infrastructure

00:47:41.510 --> 00:47:42.899
vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

00:47:43.270 --> 00:47:47.719
So not having ties, not
having relations, not having

00:47:47.730 --> 00:47:51.159
partnerships, not sending
students to things that

00:47:51.170 --> 00:47:55.239
have to do with the occupied
Palestinian territory should

00:47:55.250 --> 00:47:59.239
be the minimum bearable for a
university to keep on calling

00:47:59.250 --> 00:48:01.589
itself free, if freedom calls.

00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:12.789
That, by the way, I really
object that the university

00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:16.519
keeps on having the name free
after cancelling me and Eyal.

00:48:17.999 --> 00:48:25.539
[Applause]

00:48:25.980 --> 00:48:27.179
What can you do?

00:48:27.180 --> 00:48:31.728
You should really try to
work as much as possible

00:48:31.740 --> 00:48:34.499
in solidarity with others.

00:48:34.660 --> 00:48:38.508
Because if one thing I've
learned by myself, is that

00:48:38.520 --> 00:48:40.839
unity brings strength.

00:48:41.660 --> 00:48:44.269
And I understand that
especially, I don't know

00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:48.228
if this is unique to the
Palestine Solidarity Movement,

00:48:48.240 --> 00:48:51.369
but there is a little bit of
snobbish attitude, to draw,

00:48:51.380 --> 00:48:53.449
I agree with this, but
then it doesn't agree

00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:54.699
with everything I say.

00:48:55.500 --> 00:48:59.068
Can you be minimalist for
once and agree on a few points

00:48:59.080 --> 00:49:01.909
like end the genocide, end
the occupation, and end

00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:03.259
apartheid, and then,

00:49:03.514 --> 00:49:10.784
[Applause]

00:49:10.890 --> 00:49:14.719
let's say, because in time,
in south of Italy, I come from

00:49:14.730 --> 00:49:18.338
a region of peasants, so we
have a very simple way of

00:49:18.350 --> 00:49:23.219
understanding life in a way,
and say "in time of deluge,

00:49:23.230 --> 00:49:24.489
all arms are needed".

00:49:24.490 --> 00:49:28.318
And this is the thing, this
is a time of crisis, so all

00:49:28.330 --> 00:49:31.418
brains are needed, all mouth
and eyes and ears are needed,

00:49:31.430 --> 00:49:37.478
so let's just ally along the
lines of, there is a need

00:49:37.490 --> 00:49:41.559
for a popular front around
human rights and justice,

00:49:41.570 --> 00:49:43.929
because what's happening
in Palestine is

00:49:43.930 --> 00:49:48.478
not staying in Palestine, nor
in Israel either, so it's,

00:49:48.490 --> 00:49:50.119
I mean, yeah, it's the same.

00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:55.318
And so this is why it's
necessary to try to explore

00:49:55.330 --> 00:49:59.499
creatively what alliances
you might need, including

00:49:59.510 --> 00:50:03.509
with universities outside
Germany, or with scholars.

00:50:03.670 --> 00:50:06.436
There are a few scholars here,
but there are a few scholars

00:50:06.436 --> 00:50:07.780
who have been speaking out.

00:50:07.780 --> 00:50:11.699
I mean, to be honest, Eyal
and I, when former Freie

00:50:11.710 --> 00:50:17.318
University invited us, it was
Freie University invited us,

00:50:17.330 --> 00:50:20.969
We received an invitation
from Potsdam University.

00:50:21.290 --> 00:50:25.239
I cannot ensure 100 % that the
event would have been, would

00:50:25.250 --> 00:50:28.179
have not been cancelled, but
at least there was an attempt

00:50:28.190 --> 00:50:29.369
and we couldn't make it.

00:50:29.550 --> 00:50:31.709
But it was too much
short notice, sorry.

00:50:32.290 --> 00:50:37.059
But again, this is where we
need to reach out to everyone

00:50:37.070 --> 00:50:40.579
who's sensible enough, who
has a minimum of knowledge and

00:50:40.590 --> 00:50:44.559
a minimum of decency, which
shouldn't be too much to ask,

00:50:44.570 --> 00:50:48.858
so as to stand up against the
injustice that is spreading

00:50:48.870 --> 00:50:50.190
in this country as well.

00:50:50.190 --> 00:50:52.659
Thank you, Francesca, for
being here and for all the

00:50:52.670 --> 00:50:55.199
work that you have been
doing for over the past year.

00:50:56.030 --> 00:50:59.239
So, you touched a little bit
on this, and probably this is

00:50:59.250 --> 00:51:02.898
going to be a controversial
question, but as a

00:51:02.910 --> 00:51:06.679
Palestinian, all these, like,
international laws, human

00:51:06.690 --> 00:51:10.699
rights, the UN, all of these
things, how we can trust

00:51:10.710 --> 00:51:13.599
and, like, put our trust
in these concepts and

00:51:13.610 --> 00:51:15.249
institutions, if they

00:51:15.250 --> 00:51:19.499
fail to stop the genocide for
the past 16 months when all

00:51:19.510 --> 00:51:24.079
the greater powers in the
world are not following or

00:51:24.090 --> 00:51:29.758
like listening to or abiding
by all these laws, and also

00:51:29.770 --> 00:51:33.499
with the veto right as well,
when five superpowers can

00:51:33.510 --> 00:51:38.249
just veto any ceasefire
or any resolution?

00:51:38.810 --> 00:51:41.559
I'm not going to answer that
question because the point

00:51:41.570 --> 00:51:43.467
is not that you should
trust the system.

00:51:43.467 --> 00:51:44.909
You shouldn't
trust the system.

00:51:45.390 --> 00:51:51.169
You shouldn't expect the
system to give you anything.

00:51:51.750 --> 00:51:54.398
Because again, what the
Palestinians have got

00:51:54.410 --> 00:51:57.049
is something that the
Palestinians had to fight for.

00:51:57.690 --> 00:52:00.609
And it's not that the
Palestinians are exceptional.

00:52:00.930 --> 00:52:03.659
This epitomises
the struggle of any

00:52:03.670 --> 00:52:05.089
minorities in this world.

00:52:06.110 --> 00:52:10.818
And again, so you need really
to count on all possible

00:52:10.830 --> 00:52:12.389
forces and alliances.

00:52:12.390 --> 00:52:16.309
for example, not everything
in the United Nations is bad.

00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:18.559
No one is saying that

00:52:19.410 --> 00:52:20.170
Ah.

00:52:20.170 --> 00:52:21.220
I'm joking.

00:52:21.220 --> 00:52:22.010
No, no.

00:52:22.010 --> 00:52:25.278
But I want to say, I want
to say that there have been

00:52:25.290 --> 00:52:27.549
30 special rapporteurs.

00:52:27.630 --> 00:52:31.429
Now you see me, but there has
been 30 special rapporteurs.

00:52:31.550 --> 00:52:36.079
And while the struggle and the
attacks against me are known,

00:52:36.090 --> 00:52:40.978
many others have not even
that visibility to complain

00:52:40.990 --> 00:52:42.409
or to elicit solidarity.

00:52:42.410 --> 00:52:46.239
So it's really about
supporting each other and from

00:52:46.250 --> 00:52:49.709
the different walks of life
we come from, etc, etc.

00:52:49.870 --> 00:52:54.278
So the thing is that there
is also some difficulty in

00:52:54.290 --> 00:53:00.938
exploring how to build these
alliances, because we are more

00:53:00.950 --> 00:53:02.669
fragile in these societies.

00:53:02.930 --> 00:53:05.449
We are not, you see,
even grieving together.

00:53:05.590 --> 00:53:08.898
Why my lectures have
become a place where

00:53:08.910 --> 00:53:09.989
people come and cry?

00:53:09.990 --> 00:53:13.458
Because in our societies,
there is no, we are not

00:53:13.470 --> 00:53:17.049
afforded the luxury of
places for collective grief.

00:53:18.210 --> 00:53:21.458
And where we can also talk
about what we have gone

00:53:21.470 --> 00:53:26.179
through, we can check on each
other and have the courage to

00:53:26.190 --> 00:53:29.298
look into each other's eyes
and say, it's okay, it's okay

00:53:29.310 --> 00:53:32.758
to cry, it's okay to feel
crazy, it's okay to be scared

00:53:32.770 --> 00:53:34.905
and to carry fear,

00:53:34.905 --> 00:53:35.929
it's okay.

00:53:35.929 --> 00:53:42.179
And even rage, and even
wanting to express oneself in

00:53:42.190 --> 00:53:46.099
ways that are not necessarily
compliant with German or

00:53:46.110 --> 00:53:49.059
even Italian standards,
it's okay to be enraged

00:53:49.070 --> 00:53:50.029
against the system.

00:53:50.450 --> 00:53:54.869
The point is that how do we
move beyond grief into action?

00:53:55.350 --> 00:53:57.999
And this is where we need
to understand what it means,

00:53:58.010 --> 00:54:02.009
I think, being in the line,
where everything is at risk.

00:54:02.010 --> 00:54:05.358
I mean, and I know that now,
it's still, we have some

00:54:05.370 --> 00:54:10.579
privilege in our works, but
if some of us start to lose

00:54:10.590 --> 00:54:14.619
it just for exercising their
rights, we should all feel

00:54:14.630 --> 00:54:18.349
worried, because sooner
or later it will hit us.

00:54:18.530 --> 00:54:22.719
This is where we need to
build nets, safety nets,

00:54:22.730 --> 00:54:23.669
to help each other.

00:54:25.210 --> 00:54:27.599
We don't need, really,
we don't need to spend

00:54:27.610 --> 00:54:28.929
that much in our life.

00:54:28.930 --> 00:54:31.669
We can have times
of austerity.

00:54:31.870 --> 00:54:36.298
We should afford austerity
in our own life and trust me,

00:54:36.310 --> 00:54:40.659
if you see how my consumption
of clothes, my expenditure

00:54:40.670 --> 00:54:43.619
for clothes has gone down
from two years ago to

00:54:43.630 --> 00:54:45.789
now, you understand
what austerity means.

00:54:46.150 --> 00:54:51.619
But in the sense we don't
need as much, so we can afford

00:54:51.630 --> 00:54:54.209
less but also share more.

00:54:54.330 --> 00:54:56.918
I know it sounds idealistic,
but this is where I have

00:54:56.930 --> 00:54:59.989
I have more trust in these
than in what you said.

00:55:01.665 --> 00:55:05.826
[Applause]

00:55:05.900 --> 00:55:11.938
Also, also, apartheid
and racial segregation in

00:55:11.950 --> 00:55:16.398
the United States and the
dictatorships from Chile,

00:55:16.410 --> 00:55:20.159
Argentina, Chile, sorry,
Brazil, they didn't,

00:55:20.170 --> 00:55:23.338
or colonialism, brutal
colonisation, although

00:55:23.350 --> 00:55:26.019
colonialism is still
lingering, and this is the

00:55:26.030 --> 00:55:28.539
opportunity to unpack it,
because if one thing about

00:55:28.550 --> 00:55:32.069
Palestine, the genocide in
Palestine has brought to

00:55:32.070 --> 00:55:34.438
the fore is what
settler colonialism and

00:55:34.450 --> 00:55:35.729
colonialism still is.

00:55:35.870 --> 00:55:38.679
So it has spoke to the bubble
of colonial amnesia that we

00:55:38.690 --> 00:55:40.329
have grown into, many of us.

00:55:41.130 --> 00:55:44.338
So again, let's take the
silver, let's look at the

00:55:44.350 --> 00:55:46.549
silver lining out there.

00:55:46.990 --> 00:55:48.789
This is a moment to do better.

00:55:50.240 --> 00:55:53.439
We have to think together
and act together.

00:55:53.620 --> 00:55:55.819
This is the only
thing I feel to say.

00:55:55.980 --> 00:55:57.359
Hi, my name is Mark Barton.

00:55:57.359 --> 00:55:58.619
I'm a composer and
professor in Germany.

00:55:58.900 --> 00:56:03.309
My question is about press
freedom for Ms. Albanese and

00:56:03.320 --> 00:56:06.008
the provisions that exist
under international law to

00:56:06.020 --> 00:56:07.519
guarantee press freedom.

00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:11.949
We saw in Israel's attacks in
Lebanon, we saw the ability

00:56:11.960 --> 00:56:15.128
of journalists to respond
immediately to accusations,

00:56:15.140 --> 00:56:17.899
for example, that hospitals
were being used by terrorists.

00:56:18.220 --> 00:56:22.548
And we saw the role that
journalism can play in

00:56:22.560 --> 00:56:26.519
debunking disinformation
in real time.

00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:29.400
We don't see a lot of that
happening in the West Bank

00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:32.839
right now, and right now
there's a ceasefire in Gaza.

00:56:32.940 --> 00:56:35.400
We also don't see a lot of
international journalists

00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:38.170
active, and I'm wondering if
there's anything international

00:56:38.170 --> 00:56:39.790
law can do to force
that to happen.

00:56:39.790 --> 00:56:43.068
When I think of what
journalists have done, and

00:56:43.080 --> 00:56:46.668
you mentioned Lebanon, I mean,
it's even more shocking the

00:56:46.680 --> 00:56:50.668
kind of double, I mean the
moral compass and the moral,

00:56:50.680 --> 00:56:55.548
the double, the selective
attitude that has been used

00:56:55.560 --> 00:56:58.819
after the Pager attack because
I don't know how it was in

00:56:58.820 --> 00:57:01.490
Germany but in my own country
and other countries I saw

00:57:01.490 --> 00:57:04.749
politicians and journalists
laughing about that and

00:57:04.760 --> 00:57:08.339
commenting on how audacious
and genius it was.

00:57:08.339 --> 00:57:10.527
[Wieland] Praising the
ingenuity of the attack.

00:57:10.527 --> 00:57:14.088
But this is where I say the
entry point now where they're

00:57:14.100 --> 00:57:17.008
rallying, I mean something
to fight because this is

00:57:17.020 --> 00:57:19.259
the common enemy, is racism.

00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:25.139
Racism it was, racism it is,
and racism continues to be.

00:57:27.570 --> 00:57:32.159
And then was it, again,
I do not think that is

00:57:32.170 --> 00:57:35.649
international law was not
able to stop genocide.

00:57:36.010 --> 00:57:39.418
International law, it doesn't
have, I mean, doesn't have

00:57:39.430 --> 00:57:43.938
hands to slap the face of
government officials who

00:57:43.950 --> 00:57:46.469
pretend not to understand
what genocide is.

00:57:46.730 --> 00:57:49.329
I'm not referring to anyone
in this country now, okay?

00:57:50.190 --> 00:57:53.398
Seriously, I mean we have
enough bad politicians in my

00:57:53.410 --> 00:58:00.519
own country and where even
the hypothesis of a two-state

00:58:00.530 --> 00:58:04.619
solution now is dismantled by
the foreign minister because

00:58:04.630 --> 00:58:07.818
Gaza's been turned into rubble
and the West Bank is too

00:58:07.830 --> 00:58:09.858
small and I was saying,
are you suggesting

00:58:09.870 --> 00:58:11.009
that the Palestinians

00:58:11.009 --> 00:58:14.249
take over Israel just because
what remains is too little?

00:58:14.670 --> 00:58:17.378
So this is the kind of
political discussions we have

00:58:17.390 --> 00:58:21.739
today and we need to somewhat
talk to the intellectuals,

00:58:21.750 --> 00:58:22.889
talk to the scholars.

00:58:23.070 --> 00:58:25.659
This is also about the
constitutional order that

00:58:25.670 --> 00:58:28.669
is being undermined, not
just international system.

00:58:29.230 --> 00:58:31.760
International system has
rules, at the constitutional

00:58:31.760 --> 00:58:32.730
level we have rules.

00:58:32.730 --> 00:58:34.010
What's happening to them?

00:58:34.010 --> 00:58:36.869
So again, back to you guys.

00:58:36.870 --> 00:58:40.039
My question goes a bit in
line, like, seeing that the

00:58:40.050 --> 00:58:44.059
current international law
has been unable for 16 months

00:58:44.070 --> 00:58:48.639
to stop a genocide, I can't
believe I'm saying this, what

00:58:48.650 --> 00:58:53.019
would, in your expert opinion,
be the ideal international

00:58:53.030 --> 00:58:57.398
law system, functioning
system, who would draft

00:58:57.410 --> 00:58:58.670
it, who would enforce it?

00:58:58.670 --> 00:59:01.918
We know that this one, based
on the nation-state, with this

00:59:01.930 --> 00:59:06.298
Security Council created by
the winning powers from World

00:59:06.310 --> 00:59:08.989
War II with a veto power, et
cetera, is not functioning.

00:59:09.990 --> 00:59:12.418
How would you, yeah,
what would be the

00:59:12.430 --> 00:59:15.149
ideal international law
system in your view?

00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:16.080
Thank you.

00:59:16.080 --> 00:59:18.699
As I said before, apartheid
was not dismantled

00:59:18.710 --> 00:59:19.669
by member states.

00:59:19.930 --> 00:59:22.659
It was very late, when
it was unavoidable that

00:59:22.670 --> 00:59:25.329
they started sanctioning
apartheid South Africa.

00:59:25.950 --> 00:59:30.179
But really, we need to
learn from other movements

00:59:30.190 --> 00:59:34.159
where resistance, peaceful
resistance, has organised at

00:59:34.170 --> 00:59:39.039
a global level, admitting that
never before there had been

00:59:39.050 --> 00:59:46.818
such a coalition of allies
at the international level

00:59:46.830 --> 00:59:50.029
aiming to crush solidarity.

00:59:50.690 --> 00:59:51.549
This is new.

00:59:51.770 --> 00:59:54.999
But again, also the kind of
forces that we can mobilise

00:59:55.010 --> 00:59:57.669
is new, because the
Global South is rising.

00:59:57.670 --> 01:00:01.099
And I know that in our
eurocentric view of the world,

01:00:01.110 --> 01:00:06.728
we only look at the depressed,
quite politically depressing

01:00:06.740 --> 01:00:09.728
scenario we have, but there
are also member states who

01:00:09.740 --> 01:00:11.269
are cutting ties with Israel.

01:00:11.560 --> 01:00:14.230
There are member states, I
mean, I was joking today, but

01:00:14.230 --> 01:00:17.349
I say in a few years, we will
keep on asking funds, seeking

01:00:17.360 --> 01:00:22.108
funds to, I don't know, Arab
countries or the Global South

01:00:22.120 --> 01:00:25.088
in order to protect our own
work in this part of the world,

01:00:25.100 --> 01:00:26.246
the human rights work,

01:00:26.246 --> 01:00:29.000
but it doesn't matter,
this will make us more equal.

01:00:29.000 --> 01:00:31.370
So I also think that the
discourse should change

01:00:31.370 --> 01:00:37.449
because of where the
United States is going is

01:00:37.460 --> 01:00:38.919
a place of lawlessness.

01:00:40.020 --> 01:00:42.829
This is the opportunity for
the international community

01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:46.469
to step back, but it will
not happen automatically

01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:50.769
because we are part of this
oligarchical order where it's

01:00:50.780 --> 01:00:53.188
not about what the people
think, it's what about

01:00:53.200 --> 01:00:57.208
capitalistic interests decide
and this is why I keep on

01:00:57.220 --> 01:00:59.399
saying it's difficult and it's

01:00:59.400 --> 01:01:02.369
difficult because it's a
struggle against the system

01:01:02.380 --> 01:01:05.648
of which Palestine is a
system, not necessarily

01:01:05.660 --> 01:01:07.609
the cause of all evil.

01:01:07.889 --> 01:01:10.850
[Applause]

01:01:10.850 --> 01:01:14.438
I would like to pose a
question concerning genocide,

01:01:14.450 --> 01:01:17.278
which you said it's very
difficult to prove this mental

01:01:17.290 --> 01:01:21.999
state of committing it, but
then we have another layer

01:01:22.010 --> 01:01:26.438
and this is incitement, which
we've been witnessing here

01:01:26.450 --> 01:01:31.599
in Germany from the very
beginning, October 7, 23,

01:01:31.610 --> 01:01:34.189
how Palestinians, but in

01:01:34.190 --> 01:01:36.539
all their layers of
life, together with their

01:01:36.550 --> 01:01:38.929
children, are dehumanised.

01:01:39.430 --> 01:01:44.798
We just need to read
Tagesschau or Bild, and if I

01:01:44.810 --> 01:01:49.239
may read, or not to take time,
but this is a serious problem,

01:01:49.250 --> 01:01:52.458
and then if I go back to
the history and the magazine

01:01:52.470 --> 01:01:57.679
Sturmer and compare the
images, not that I'm

01:01:57.690 --> 01:02:02.169
comparing, comparing, but
this historical flow of

01:02:02.170 --> 01:02:03.629
dehumanising then.

01:02:04.150 --> 01:02:05.839
I have no problem
with comparison.

01:02:05.850 --> 01:02:10.719
Okay, but then I am now
careful, so because we

01:02:10.730 --> 01:02:12.239
know what can happen.

01:02:12.390 --> 01:02:16.139
But the processes of
dehumanisations do last, and

01:02:16.150 --> 01:02:19.559
they tell us that genocide,
like for instance, in the

01:02:19.570 --> 01:02:23.569
country where I am from,
Serbia, lasts for a long time.

01:02:23.570 --> 01:02:27.219
So I, as someone from
Serbia, could also recognise

01:02:27.230 --> 01:02:31.219
dehumanising images of
Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslims

01:02:31.230 --> 01:02:36.099
and then Palestinians while
reading magazines, Bild, not

01:02:36.110 --> 01:02:41.458
that I read Bild, but Bild,
Tagesschau, or even I will now

01:02:41.470 --> 01:02:46.039
mention the January 19th and
the release of hostages, which

01:02:46.050 --> 01:02:47.549
was really an important day,

01:02:47.710 --> 01:02:51.169
and it is every time when
we celebrate freed lives.

01:02:51.170 --> 01:02:53.909
but then also freed
lives from the prison.

01:02:54.550 --> 01:02:59.199
And when we see how they are
represented as the groyalde

01:02:59.210 --> 01:03:03.469
Menge, can you help
me translate this?

01:03:04.530 --> 01:03:07.669
Screaming crowd, groyalde
or the schreiende.

01:03:08.150 --> 01:03:12.318
So this is my question about
the incitement, also how

01:03:12.330 --> 01:03:17.519
to organise ourselves to be
aware, to collect, to archive,

01:03:17.530 --> 01:03:21.029
and also then to serve to the
legal cause in the future.

01:03:21.470 --> 01:03:23.499
And thank you for
your patience.

01:03:23.499 --> 01:03:29.434
[Applause]

01:03:29.690 --> 01:03:32.778
Again, genocide is difficult
to prove because genocide

01:03:32.790 --> 01:03:34.410
should be difficult to commit.

01:03:34.410 --> 01:03:38.609
We should not confuse the
intent with the reasons.

01:03:38.830 --> 01:03:42.559
I mean, because people say,
Israel, we cannot really say

01:03:42.570 --> 01:03:46.739
that Israel wanted to destroy
Gaza, even if it has destroyed

01:03:46.750 --> 01:03:50.739
Gaza, even if it has said,
there are Israeli leaders who

01:03:50.750 --> 01:03:53.358
have ordered the destruction
of Gaza, and general

01:03:53.370 --> 01:03:56.298
commanders who have,
in fact, ordered their

01:03:56.310 --> 01:03:57.539
soldiers, so there has

01:03:57.539 --> 01:04:01.258
been the order, the chain of
command effectively triggered,

01:04:01.270 --> 01:04:03.129
bottom, sorry, top to bottom.

01:04:03.610 --> 01:04:07.098
They say, yeah, but they were
also saying that Israel was

01:04:07.098 --> 01:04:09.531
also saying that they want
to liberate the hostages

01:04:09.531 --> 01:04:11.429
or destroy Hamas,
whatever it means.

01:04:12.330 --> 01:04:16.858
And no, we shouldn't confuse
this because the reasons can

01:04:16.870 --> 01:04:20.358
be many, but have really no
value in the determination

01:04:20.370 --> 01:04:23.389
of intent, which is another
thing, it's the mindset.

01:04:23.690 --> 01:04:28.258
When the mindset is
there to destroy, and the

01:04:28.270 --> 01:04:32.338
genocide shouldn't even be
committed, the incitement

01:04:32.350 --> 01:04:37.779
is sufficient to trigger the
responsibility to prevent.

01:04:38.170 --> 01:04:42.079
And this is where, you know,
when the first person to talk

01:04:42.090 --> 01:04:45.179
about genocide in the context
of what has happened in Gaza

01:04:45.190 --> 01:04:49.559
was Raz Sigal, an Israeli
historian, who said, this is

01:04:49.570 --> 01:04:51.469
a textbook case of genocide.

01:04:52.570 --> 01:04:56.369
And ignorant as I was back
then, I said, oh, come on.

01:04:57.130 --> 01:04:59.719
It's not a textbook case,
because as a good European, I

01:04:59.730 --> 01:05:03.159
knew that the textbook case of
genocide, first, I mean, and

01:05:03.170 --> 01:05:07.938
again, I had seen the failure
to prevent genocide in Rwanda

01:05:07.950 --> 01:05:09.429
and in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

01:05:09.730 --> 01:05:13.378
So my point was, if there are
no crematoria, if there are no

01:05:13.390 --> 01:05:18.978
machetes, if there is no mass
killing, it's not genocide,

01:05:18.990 --> 01:05:21.089
it's not true, it's not true.

01:05:21.210 --> 01:05:26.019
And this is why genocide
has been a niche in legal

01:05:26.030 --> 01:05:28.909
studies for a long time,
and it's no longer that.

01:05:29.070 --> 01:05:32.999
I mean, really, Raz was right
when he said that this is a

01:05:33.010 --> 01:05:36.139
textbook case of genocide,
because it's not just a

01:05:36.150 --> 01:05:38.929
genocide, it's a settler
colonial genocide.

01:05:39.310 --> 01:05:42.838
So the aim is ethnic
cleansing, because the aim

01:05:42.850 --> 01:05:46.619
is to empty the land of
Palestinians, keep on

01:05:46.630 --> 01:05:50.059
advancing Palestinian erasure
so that the land can be

01:05:50.070 --> 01:05:52.599
taken, but also genocidal
acts are being committed

01:05:52.610 --> 01:05:53.489
in the process.

01:05:53.950 --> 01:05:55.869
And it's been said,
and it has been done.

01:05:55.970 --> 01:05:58.670
So this is not a case where
there is no genocidal intent.

01:05:58.670 --> 01:06:02.039
But Raz is also, I mean, I
remember that Raz has been

01:06:02.050 --> 01:06:07.039
one of those scholars calling
me as early as February 2023,

01:06:07.050 --> 01:06:10.079
saying, as I was writing
about the tension and

01:06:10.090 --> 01:06:13.318
mass carcerality, mass
incarceration, and the

01:06:13.330 --> 01:06:18.378
kind of, the systemic and
widespread the nature of

01:06:18.390 --> 01:06:20.499
deprivation of liberty of
the Palestinians.

01:06:21.190 --> 01:06:23.254
And he was saying, but
when are you going to

01:06:23.254 --> 01:06:25.490
look into the genocide
against the Palestinians?

01:06:25.490 --> 01:06:26.560
Imagine my reaction.

01:06:26.560 --> 01:06:28.376
But I say, okay,
let's talk about that.

01:06:28.376 --> 01:06:30.978
But then I've realised how
much he was right because as

01:06:30.990 --> 01:06:35.258
a genocide scholar and someone
who has studied the Holocaust

01:06:35.270 --> 01:06:38.219
and other cases of genocide,
he knows that there

01:06:38.230 --> 01:06:39.529
are different steps.

01:06:39.530 --> 01:06:42.679
That genocide is not an act,
it's a process, and it's

01:06:42.690 --> 01:06:45.599
preceded by a number of
things, but there is one

01:06:45.610 --> 01:06:49.659
element that is common,
common across all genocides,

01:06:49.670 --> 01:06:52.458
and wouldn't be possible
if it was not widespread

01:06:52.470 --> 01:06:53.549
among societies.

01:06:54.050 --> 01:06:56.169
It's dehumanisation
of the other.

01:06:56.430 --> 01:06:58.278
So that we do not
see the Palestinians

01:06:58.290 --> 01:06:59.929
today as Palestinians.

01:07:00.950 --> 01:07:05.999
And again, as a European, this
is me taking, please don't

01:07:06.010 --> 01:07:09.838
applaud, don't nod, don't say
anything, hold your breath,

01:07:09.850 --> 01:07:12.179
but I need to say that
because I wouldn't be

01:07:12.190 --> 01:07:13.749
me if I didn't say that.

01:07:14.190 --> 01:07:18.659
But as a European, as an
Italian, I know that the

01:07:18.670 --> 01:07:22.159
genocide of the Jewish people
in this part of the world

01:07:22.170 --> 01:07:25.818
would not have been possible
only for a few monsters

01:07:25.830 --> 01:07:28.978
who had planned the
deportation, the trains,

01:07:28.990 --> 01:07:31.669
the industrialisation, the
horror that has been done.

01:07:32.150 --> 01:07:35.818
Jewish people in this part of
the world, before being sent

01:07:35.830 --> 01:07:40.539
to concentration camps, have
died out of starvation and

01:07:40.550 --> 01:07:45.869
lack of hygiene in ghettos
where they had been locked up.

01:07:46.830 --> 01:07:49.838
We know that the
discrimination started, the

01:07:49.850 --> 01:07:53.179
dehumanisation had already
started when it was possible

01:07:53.190 --> 01:07:56.054
to kick out of their
professions,

01:07:56.054 --> 01:07:58.849
people because they were Jewish.

01:08:00.410 --> 01:08:06.719
Either we do realise that
racism was the root cause

01:08:06.730 --> 01:08:10.898
for the genocide of the Jews,
the Roma, and Sinti, and it's

01:08:10.910 --> 01:08:15.179
ingrained in who we are as
European, I'm sorry, but 500

01:08:15.190 --> 01:08:19.358
years of colonialism have
been predicated upon the idea

01:08:19.370 --> 01:08:23.188
of a superior race, white,
male, Christian, and

01:08:23.189 --> 01:08:25.000
it's patriarchy.

01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:25.800
[Applause]

01:08:25.800 --> 01:08:26.900
Either we deal with it,

01:08:26.900 --> 01:08:27.930
No...

01:08:27.930 --> 01:08:30.710
[Applause]

01:08:30.710 --> 01:08:32.489
it's my responsibility, because

01:08:32.500 --> 01:08:36.019
then it's here, I understand
that you cannot talk.

01:08:36.020 --> 01:08:39.459
I mean, I'm not making
comparison, for God's sake.

01:08:40.560 --> 01:08:41.978
But also, it's history.

01:08:42.720 --> 01:08:45.278
And Germany has
committed two genocides.

01:08:45.500 --> 01:08:47.989
Please don't applaud,
because there is nothing

01:08:48.000 --> 01:08:49.419
to applaud to this.

01:08:49.819 --> 01:08:52.398
Germany has committed
two genocides in history.

01:08:53.024 --> 01:08:55.560
[Inaudible]

01:08:55.560 --> 01:08:56.309
Oops.

01:08:56.620 --> 01:08:58.419
Okay, that's fine.

01:08:58.880 --> 01:09:00.489
Two are bad enough.

01:09:00.840 --> 01:09:04.778
And again, why can't
we talk about that?

01:09:05.760 --> 01:09:08.568
Are the Nama and Herero less human?

01:09:09.109 --> 01:09:11.739
Do they deserve less
acknowledgment, do they

01:09:11.750 --> 01:09:13.959
deserve less memory,
do they deserve less

01:09:13.970 --> 01:09:15.319
reparations?

01:09:15.410 --> 01:09:19.259
And again, and another thing, and so
me saying that, probably

01:09:19.270 --> 01:09:21.898
you should say that, the
State of Israel doesn't

01:09:21.910 --> 01:09:24.769
represent all the Jewish
people in the world.

01:09:24.910 --> 01:09:27.449
Otherwise, I wouldn't
understand why you invite me

01:09:27.449 --> 01:09:29.880
and sit with me today, and
so many, I mean, wherever

01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:32.419
I go, I'm invited by Jewish
people first and foremost.

01:09:32.419 --> 01:09:34.489
We need to have the
courage to say that.

01:09:35.330 --> 01:09:38.369
I do not expect every
one of you to say that.

01:09:38.370 --> 01:09:41.678
But those of you who have
an inch of privilege in this

01:09:41.689 --> 01:09:46.739
country, university professors
with tenure, Jewish people

01:09:46.750 --> 01:09:50.318
first and foremost, we need
to say that it's not in our

01:09:50.330 --> 01:09:53.299
name that this can be carried
out because we have not

01:09:53.310 --> 01:09:55.669
been able to prevent the
genocide of the Tutsi,

01:09:55.750 --> 01:09:57.999
we have not been able to
prevent the genocide of

01:09:58.010 --> 01:10:04.469
the Yazidi, or the Rohingya
in Myanmar, or in Bosnia.

01:10:04.470 --> 01:10:07.999
However, however, I really
want this to be the last

01:10:08.010 --> 01:10:09.349
genocide of human history.

01:10:09.550 --> 01:10:12.169
And it's not going to
happen until it's stopped.

01:10:12.470 --> 01:10:14.058
In order for this 
to be stopped,

01:10:14.058 --> 01:10:16.110
it needs to be 
understood and recognised.

01:10:16.110 --> 01:10:17.240
[Weidel] Absolutely.

01:10:17.240 --> 01:10:18.750
Thank you very much.

01:10:18.750 --> 01:10:21.839
A perfect point to end, even
if, obviously, many of us

01:10:21.850 --> 01:10:23.109
would like to continue.

01:10:23.310 --> 01:10:28.819
But there are still further
parts of this program, which,

01:10:28.830 --> 01:10:32.459
somewhat amazingly, has been
allowed to proceed this far.

01:10:32.510 --> 01:10:34.849
So let's see if we
make it to the end.

01:10:34.990 --> 01:10:37.839
Yes, so thank you again,
Francesca Albanese.

01:10:38.033 --> 01:10:41.000
[Applause]