0:00:00.662,0:00:02.920
Introducer: ... John Holt's work.

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I'm sure that you have[br]read "How Children Learn,"

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"How Children Fail,"[br]"Teach Your Own."

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You may have had[br]an opportunity to see,

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lots of times on tour, him talking[br]on television or on the radio,

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John Holt, who's probably the best-known,[br]most vocal commentator on unschooling,

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and particularly home-based education,[br]in the country right now.

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Also, I understand he's[br]a magnificent cello player.

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So maybe some germane questions about[br]that would be refreshing and useful, as well.

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Here's John Holt.

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[Applause]

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John Holt: Well,[br]thanks very much.

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First of all, we have to delete[br]that "magnificent" part. [Laughter]

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Someday maybe,[br]but not yet.

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How many people[br]still remember

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those instructions[br]about how to get to this – ?

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We'll have a run through again[br]after the meeting, I think.

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We were talking about parking,[br]and something popped into my head.

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I was tempted to interrupt and say it,[br]but I didn't, but I'll say it now.

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What popped in was,[br]"Parking is such sweet sorrow."

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[Laughter]

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Well, thank you for coming.[br]Thank you for inviting me.

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It's nice to be here.

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I said I was surprised to see,[br]among a number of good friends of mine,

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a friend that I really didn't[br]expect to see here.

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And I think[br]he probably wins

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the long-distance attendance[br]record for this meeting.

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Now, I'm John Holt from Boston,

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but I'd like you to see[br]John Boston from Escondido,

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which happens to be[br]near San Diego.

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I couldn't believe he was[br]here for this meeting.

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Just wave your hand or say hi.[br][Laughter]

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John Boston: Hi.[br][Applause]

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John: I want to talk about[br]a number of things tonight.

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And first of all though,[br]I'm probably saying things

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that you've heard me[br]say before or read.

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Now, this young man has the right idea[br]about how to dress for this meeting.

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[Laughter]

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Oh, but I guess,[br]even before I get into

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what you might call[br]the body of this formal address,

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I want to ask just a few questions[br]to locate the audience.

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And perhaps one way to start[br]would be by saying,

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how many of you – I'm asking here[br]for a "show of hands" response.

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I wonder if we could[br]remove that rattle.

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Woman: Sure.[br]John: Thank you.

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Experience has taught me[br]the good things to bring with little kids,

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and I love to bring bags of it –[br]get it all out. [Laughter]

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This young man is divesting himself[br]of his coveralls. [Laughter]

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I think, very smart.

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Now, how many of you[br]are working with,

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in one capacity or another,[br]alternative schools?

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All right.[br]Thank you very much.

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And another question.

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How many of you are now[br]parents of school-aged kids?

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Good.[br]All right.

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How many of[br]those of you

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who are parents of school-aged kids[br]are sending them to alternative schools?

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All right.

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How many of you[br]are teaching them at home?

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Big crowd.

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Now, this next one[br]will be for those of you

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who are parents of children[br]who are not yet of school age

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or expect soon to be[br]parents of very young children.

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How many of you are[br]seriously considering

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the idea of, I'd say,[br]teaching them at home?

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All right.

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And how many of you[br]are seriously considering

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sending them to[br]an alternative school

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if there's one near you[br]that was within reach?

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Okay, good.

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How many of you are teaching [br]or otherwise working with –

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– with public schools[br]or colleges or universities,

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let's say, in one[br]capacity or another?

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Okay, thank you very much.

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The grandparent question.

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How many of you[br]are grandparents of homeschooled or –

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Good! –[br]alternative-schooled children?

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Okay.

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Grandparents are a very[br]important ingredient in this situation.

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There are homeschoolers who are[br]having just about as much with –

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Small child: Hi.[br]John: Hi.

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How are you doing?

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Child: Hi. Hi.[br]John: Hi.

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The famous Jimmy Durante said:

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"Everybody's trying to[br]get into the act!" [Laughter]

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There are folks who are having[br]about as much trouble with grandparents

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as they are with superintendents.[br][Laughter]

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So, it's extremely important to have[br]friendly and supportive grandparents

0:06:00.760,0:06:03.750
in this alternative-education movement.

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Well, let me sum up[br]in a very few words

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what I have been[br]saying and writing

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about children and learning now[br]for going on 25 years or more.

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As a result of my experiences,

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first of all as a classroom teacher[br]working in just about every grade,

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sometimes, say,[br]K through G.

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I did a little college and[br]graduate school teaching –

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not very much.

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K through 12 might be[br]a little more accurate.

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But as a result of,[br]on the one hand,

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working with children in[br]more or less conventional classrooms,

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and on the other hand,[br]spending a lot of time

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with babies, infants,[br]little children –

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first my sisters',

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then the children of other people,[br]little children in nursery schools,

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and since then, many children[br]of homeschooling parents –

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I came to understand something –[br]certainly to believe something

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about young human beings[br]of which I am more certain

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than I am, I think,[br]about anything in the world –

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and that is[br]that children are,

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by nature and from birth,[br]or perhaps before birth –

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though I have no testimony[br]to offer about that –

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natural learning creatures.

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There is nothing[br]that they want more.

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They have a desire –[br]more than a desire, a passion –

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to find out[br]as much as they can,

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to make as much sense as they can[br]of the world around them,

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or as much of that world[br]as they experience,

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to become competent[br]and skillful in it,

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to do things in it,[br]to play a useful part in it.

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This is a truly biological[br]instinct or drive.

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It is as strong as[br]or stronger –

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– at least for children who[br]are not in famine condition –

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it is stronger than[br]the desire to eat.

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Those of you[br]who are mothers

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or attentive and observant fathers[br]of very young children

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will have seen this[br]happen many times,

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that a tiny infant,[br]babe in arms,

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hungry with his[br]little stomach hurting –

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which is what happens[br]when they'te hungry –

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and eating, feeding, nursing,[br]will stop eating if something interesting happens.

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If somebody comes into the room,[br]if there's a noise,

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if there's some kind of[br]a change in the situation,

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this hungry little teeny creature

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will stop eating and look around[br]to see what's going on.

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There is probably not a mother in the[br]world who hasn't seen this happen.

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And how we can persist in talking about[br]children not being interested in learning

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or needing to be taught to learn[br]or whatever it is,

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is just absolutely beyond me.

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Anyway.

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They are extremely good at this –

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this learning,[br]this making sense of the world.

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They're much better at it than we are,[br]or than all but some microscopic fraction.

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If by some accident of[br]who knows what – science fiction –

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were all of us[br]to be dropped into,

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say, the interior of Japan[br]or some exotic part of the world

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where nobody spoke[br]a word of English,

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where everybody was speaking some[br]language we had never heard of,

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it's no mystery to us[br]which of us here in the room

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would be talking[br]that language first –

0:10:00.400,0:10:01.640
the little guys would.

0:10:01.640,0:10:03.760
All of them[br]would be talking it.

0:10:03.760,0:10:05.480
Most of them[br]talking it fairly soon.

0:10:05.480,0:10:08.200
Most of us –[br]some of us – big ones –

0:10:08.200,0:10:10.960
would be struggling along[br]in a kind of a halting way.

0:10:10.960,0:10:13.120
And a lot of us would[br]never learn any of it.

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Many of us would[br]never know it.

0:10:16.120,0:10:23.810
Just the problems of learning something[br]totally new without any assistance with it.

0:10:24.280,0:10:25.900
No, they get it first.

0:10:26.320,0:10:29.040
But we all know that[br]when we think about it.

0:10:29.320,0:10:31.490
They're extremely[br]good at it.

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Well, another way of saying[br]what I've come to believe

0:10:38.880,0:10:46.390
is that learning is not[br]the product of teaching.

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Very difficult for me as a paid teacher over[br]a number of years to get that into my thick head.

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I was very good at that whatever you call[br]that thing that goes on in classrooms.

0:11:02.280,0:11:06.700
I was probably a good example[br]of what's called a gifted teacher –

0:11:07.600,0:11:14.040
motivating, clever at devices,[br]good at explaining,

0:11:14.040,0:11:15.400
all that stuff you're[br]supposed to do.

0:11:15.400,0:11:21.200
It took me a long time to figure out[br]that this was not doing anybody any good,

0:11:21.200,0:11:23.080
and most people harm.

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Very hard for us to give up[br]the picture of learning

0:11:28.960,0:11:34.560
that it's like pouring something out of[br]a full container into an empty one.

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It's this assumption which lies at[br]the root of absolutely everything

0:11:38.720,0:11:42.030
that's done in schools and[br]under the name of education.

0:11:42.720,0:11:44.680
And it's a hundred percent wrong.

0:11:44.680,0:11:47.760
I mean, not even 98% wrong –[br]a hundred percent wrong.

0:11:48.230,0:11:50.380
That is not what happens.

0:11:51.480,0:11:58.560
Learning is the product of the curiosity,[br]the interest, the enthusiasm, the activity,

0:11:58.560,0:12:04.610
the ingenuity, the imagination,[br]the thinking power of the learner.

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Now, there are things that outsiders,[br]whether grown-up or whatever,

0:12:14.000,0:12:18.290
can do to assist this process, and[br]I'll talk about them in just a few minutes.

0:12:20.400,0:12:24.080
But the work is[br]done by the learner.

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These little people are not empty receptacles[br]into which knowledge is poured.

0:12:36.680,0:12:39.800
They are not sponges[br]soaking up knowledge.

0:12:39.800,0:12:44.200
They are not little lamps to be lighted,[br]as somebody else likes to say.

0:12:44.200,0:12:47.120
They are not[br]any of these metaphors.

0:12:47.120,0:12:51.990
They are, in the most strict and[br]literal sense of the word, scientists.

0:12:53.160,0:12:58.040
The things that they do[br]to create knowledge out of experience,

0:12:58.040,0:13:00.230
which is what learning is,

0:13:00.230,0:13:04.840
are exactly the same as the things[br]that the people we think of as scientists

0:13:04.840,0:13:06.920
do in their laboratory.

0:13:07.530,0:13:10.200
When they do them, perhaps,[br]there are some differences.

0:13:10.200,0:13:12.630
They are probably[br]a good deal less self-conscious.

0:13:12.630,0:13:14.810
A scientist will probably have

0:13:14.810,0:13:17.440
a pretty clear idea of what[br]she or he is looking for,

0:13:17.440,0:13:20.080
whereas little kids[br]are not doing it in that way.

0:13:20.800,0:13:23.480
Nevertheless, they[br]do the same things.

0:13:23.480,0:13:27.300
The first is they observe,[br]they take in data.

0:13:28.400,0:13:31.440
And the second is that[br]they wonder about it.

0:13:32.840,0:13:37.736
And the third is that they ask[br]themselves questions about it.

0:13:39.256,0:13:41.200
The second and third[br]are pretty close.

0:13:41.200,0:13:44.540
And then, they begin to [br]make up theories, invent theories,

0:13:44.540,0:13:50.690
maybe that the wind blows because[br]the trees are moving their branches,

0:13:50.690,0:13:55.490
which, on the face of it,[br]is not a bad theory.

0:13:56.650,0:14:01.000
And then, they test these theories[br]with observation, maybe with questions,

0:14:01.000,0:14:07.940
LL maybe with experiments, some of which we[br]may welcome and others of which we may not.

0:14:07.940,0:14:13.880
In this connection, I think of the most[br]recent visit to my house of Anna Vandoren,

0:14:13.880,0:14:16.800
of whom you may have read in[br]"Growing Without Schooling."

0:14:16.800,0:14:20.350
Anna's going to be four in June.

0:14:20.920,0:14:22.580
We were in the apartment.

0:14:23.280,0:14:25.630
Her mother and I[br]were doing various kinds of work.

0:14:25.630,0:14:28.690
Her little guy seemed not to be[br]getting in any physical trouble.

0:14:28.690,0:14:30.185
And when the time[br]came to leave,

0:14:30.185,0:14:33.840
I have a door with one of [br]those push-button locks on it.

0:14:33.840,0:14:41.200
And as I was leaving, I reached in to push[br]the lock, and my thumb fell into a hole.

0:14:41.200,0:14:43.080
Well, this feels[br]kind of funny.

0:14:43.080,0:14:47.260
And I looked, and [br]the push lock wasn't there,

0:14:47.260,0:14:49.410
and it was sitting[br]on the floor.

0:14:49.840,0:14:53.300
I said, "Anna, you've taken[br]the lock out of my doorknob!"

0:14:54.480,0:14:58.080
It took me about four or five minutes[br]to figure out how to get it back in.

0:15:00.600,0:15:04.620
Children tend to like to do [br]experiments right up into the point

0:15:04.620,0:15:06.890
where no further [br]experimenting is possible,

0:15:06.890,0:15:09.680
I guess you could say, –[br]up to the disaster limit.

0:15:09.680,0:15:16.840
And it's very good on learning, but it's[br]sometimes tough on the lab. [Laughter]

0:15:16.840,0:15:20.480
So these experiments are not always[br]welcome, but nevertheless, they do them.

0:15:20.480,0:15:23.530
And then, as a result of[br]what they find out,

0:15:23.530,0:15:27.360
they give up their theories, [br]modify them, change them.

0:15:28.850,0:15:29.840
Let's see.

0:15:30.960,0:15:35.720
Has the GWS gone out which talks about[br]my little friend Helen saying, "gocks?"

0:15:35.720,0:15:37.250
Or is that 44?

0:15:37.250,0:15:39.110
Maybe you haven't received it yet.[br]Woman: Yeah.

0:15:39.110,0:15:40.320
Woman: It just arrived.

0:15:40.320,0:15:42.470
John : All right.[br]So here's Helen Vandoren.

0:15:43.480,0:15:46.080
Actually, her full name is[br]Helen Maria-Holt Vandoren.

0:15:46.840,0:15:50.600
I had two schools and [br]one baby named after me. [Laughter]

0:15:50.600,0:15:58.955
One of the schools is defunct,[br]but the baby is fine. [Laughter]

0:15:58.955,0:16:00.920
At any rate.

0:16:00.920,0:16:06.470
Helen has been, for some time,[br]using the word "gocks" to say socks.

0:16:06.470,0:16:10.445
And this is a mystery to us because[br]she knows how to say the sound "sss,"

0:16:10.445,0:16:12.440
and says it in lots [br]of other connections.

0:16:12.440,0:16:15.240
Indeed, it was one of [br]the first sounds she said,

0:16:15.240,0:16:19.770
and it had multiple meanings,[br]including that she wanted to nurse.

0:16:20.520,0:16:25.830
We simply could not imagine where[br]she got the idea of saying gocks.

0:16:25.830,0:16:27.960
She never heard[br]anybody say it, obviously.

0:16:27.960,0:16:28.700
No imitation.

0:16:28.700,0:16:30.480
Her sister had [br]never said it.

0:16:33.080,0:16:36.360
If you think of the way sounds [br]are produced in the mouth and throat,

0:16:36.360,0:16:38.720
S and G are [br]not at all alike.

0:16:38.720,0:16:41.980
It's not[br]a small difference.

0:16:42.980,0:16:48.800
At any rate, she must have had some[br]kind of theory about why she wanted

0:16:48.800,0:16:52.800
to do it this way and not some[br]other way – and it was a theory.

0:16:52.800,0:16:56.920
Just the other day, oh, I think maybe not[br]more than about three or four days ago,

0:16:56.920,0:17:00.160
we were all in the office,

0:17:00.160,0:17:01.780
and it was time for[br]the Vandoren family to go home,

0:17:01.780,0:17:04.810
which means rounding up the kids' clothes, [br]shoes, socks, putting them on them –

0:17:04.810,0:17:07.840
an operation [br]you know well.

0:17:09.920,0:17:13.720
And we had Helen sitting on the floor[br]getting ready to put her socks on.

0:17:13.720,0:17:21.470
And she looked at them thoughtfully, [br]and said, "Zzzzocks.

0:17:21.470,0:17:21.480
Zzzzocks."

0:17:21.480,0:17:23.480
I said to Mary, "Have you [br]ever heard her say that before?"

0:17:23.480,0:17:27.920
Mary said,[br]"No, first time."

0:17:27.920,0:17:29.820
Well, I saw Mary just[br]a couple of days ago and said,

0:17:29.820,0:17:32.840
"How is the 'zocks' going?"[br]Has she said "gocks" since?

0:17:32.840,0:17:33.680
"No," she said.

0:17:33.680,0:17:38.880
In fact, she's very quickly converted the[br]"zocks" to "socks," and that's what it is now.

0:17:38.880,0:17:42.520
Now, why that difference, which didn't[br]make any difference to her before,

0:17:42.520,0:17:44.800
all of a sudden did make a[br]difference, I don't know,

0:17:44.800,0:17:50.200
you don't know, she doesn't know, we'll[br]never know – except everybody does it.

0:17:50.200,0:17:55.320
All of a sudden, whatever theory of language[br]it was that caused her to say "gocks," suddenly

0:17:55.320,0:18:00.840
seemed unsatisfactory, didn't work,[br]didn't fit – so now she says "socks."

0:18:00.840,0:18:01.840
Well, okay.

0:18:01.840,0:18:07.480
A very small example which we[br]could multiply by the billions,

0:18:07.480,0:18:09.160
and it's what these little people do.

0:18:09.160,0:18:13.960
They are observers, makers,[br]testers, changers of theories.

0:18:13.960,0:18:21.240
They are, in the strictest[br]sense of the word, scientists.

0:18:21.240,0:18:28.960
And, at least as far as learning goes, all they[br]ask is to be allowed to continue to do this.

0:18:28.960,0:18:33.400
Now, what we can do – I come back[br]to the point about what can adults

0:18:33.400,0:18:40.000
do to help? – because we are, in many[br]ways, an essential part of this process.

0:18:40.000,0:18:42.880
I don't claim children would[br]ever learn to figure out how

0:18:42.880,0:18:45.240
to talk if they were surrounded by deaf-mutes.

0:18:45.240,0:18:50.440
It wouldn't happen.

0:18:51.120,0:18:59.120
What we can do, what we do in our normal daily[br]lives before we start thinking about education

0:18:59.120,0:19:09.040
or coerced learning is we provide children with[br]– as much as we can – access to the world around

0:19:09.040,0:19:17.240
them – by which I mean not just places, places[br]that we go, places at the house, the kitchen,

0:19:17.240,0:19:22.120
the yard, the neighborhood, the stores, wherever[br]we go, but also the world of people, the world

0:19:22.120,0:19:32.720
of experience, actions, talk, materials, books,[br]records, tools, people doing things, human life.

0:19:32.720,0:19:36.200
Now, what we can do for these little[br]guys is to provide them with as much

0:19:36.200,0:19:40.440
as we reasonably can – I say reasonably –[br]I'm not saying you have to make your whole

0:19:40.440,0:19:48.360
life into a field trip – as we reasonably can[br]with access to our own lives as we lead them.

0:19:48.360,0:19:50.080
If you live in the woods, that means the woods.

0:19:50.080,0:19:52.800
If you live in downtown city, that means downtown.

0:19:52.800,0:19:59.960
I mean, wherever we live, whatever we do, as far[br]as we can, we open up that world to children –

0:19:59.960,0:20:03.880
let them see it, let them be part of[br]it – and we answer their questions

0:20:03.880,0:20:05.960
when they have them – and they have lots of them.

0:20:05.960,0:20:11.507
Some of you will have discovered that[br]when your children are getting on --

0:20:11.507,0:20:12.229
Small child: Hi.

0:20:12.229,0:20:13.353
John: Oh, hi again.

0:20:13.353,0:20:20.661
Child: Hi, hi.

0:20:20.661,0:20:21.920
John: Mm-hmm.[br]John: Well, when they're getting on to a year

0:20:21.920,0:20:25.520
and a half, when they're beginning[br]to sneak up under – into speech –

0:20:25.520,0:20:27.680
It will be a place where they'll point to

0:20:27.680,0:20:33.076
all kinds of things and make some[br]kind of insistent noise: "Mmm mmm."

0:20:33.076,0:20:38.240
The tendency for a lot of people is to think[br]that they're saying that they want that.

0:20:38.240,0:20:40.080
They point to the clock, they[br]point to this, and they go,

0:20:40.080,0:20:42.360
"Mmm mmm," and people say,[br]"No, you can't have it."

0:20:42.360,0:20:42.960
They don't want it.

0:20:42.960,0:20:44.720
They want to know what it's called.

0:20:44.720,0:20:46.760
They want to hear the name of it.

0:20:46.760,0:20:47.880
Simple as that.

0:20:47.880,0:20:48.460
I say simple.

0:20:48.460,0:20:52.080
It took me quite a number of[br]years to figure it out. [Laughter]

0:20:54.520,0:20:58.840
So they ask questions – and we can[br]answer their questions when they

0:20:58.840,0:21:18.480
ask them – give help if and when it is[br]asked for, and not too much at a time,

0:21:18.480,0:21:23.000
and give a kind of demonstration just by[br]our being there and our doing things – give

0:21:23.000,0:21:28.520
the kind of demonstration of various[br]sorts of adult skill and competence,

0:21:31.280,0:21:37.640
and pay a kind of affectionate, respectful[br]attention to what they're doing, without making

0:21:37.640,0:21:45.920
some huge, big deal of it, and give them a kind of[br]moral support in this adventure of trying to make

0:21:45.920,0:21:52.600
sense of the world – and the best way to give[br]this moral support is, in fact, to trust them,

0:21:52.600,0:21:58.680
to understand that they are, indeed, passionately[br]eager to learn about the world, extremely good

0:21:58.680,0:22:05.360
at doing it, and will, in fact, do it[br]– in their own way, in their own time.

0:22:05.360,0:22:07.240
Not to say they're going to know[br]everything about everything,

0:22:07.240,0:22:13.320
but nobody does – and that's how we can help.

0:22:13.320,0:22:20.680
But ours is a very minor role,[br]and theirs is the major one.

0:22:20.680,0:22:23.320
Okay, well, I'm preaching to the[br]converted, I know. [Chuckles]

0:22:23.320,0:22:26.520
If you weren't already half convinced[br]of this, you wouldn't be here.

0:22:26.520,0:22:32.720
But I want to say it anyway.

0:22:32.720,0:22:35.280
All right, now, the next part of my[br]talk is about something different.

0:22:35.280,0:22:37.360
Much of this conference has to do with the future,

0:22:37.360,0:22:44.960
and I want to talk a little bit about the future[br]of homeschooling and the near-run future – the

0:22:44.960,0:22:54.360
next 10 years or so – and by extension,[br]to some degree, of alternative schools.

0:22:54.360,0:22:57.496
We are – from a legislative –

0:22:57.496,0:22:58.440
[A woman comes forward.][br]Yes?

0:22:58.440,0:23:00.922
Woman: Is it possible to ask you[br]questions before you go on to the next –?

0:23:00.921,0:23:03.534
John: Yeah, yeah, sure.

0:23:03.535,0:23:03.554
Woman: I see. Okay.

0:23:03.554,0:23:06.000
John: Now, you don't have all[br]these electronics at your disposal,

0:23:06.000,0:23:22.563
so you've got to speak up – and not too fast.

0:23:22.563,0:23:22.634
Woman: Okay, I don't have a loud[br]voice, I don't know whether it carries.

0:23:22.634,0:23:22.663
You certainly are convincing.

0:23:22.663,0:23:22.722
I agree with what you say that[br]we are not going to convince.

0:23:22.722,0:23:22.800
On that part, that I'm going to disagree[br]in terms of people connected with you.

0:23:22.800,0:23:29.400
But I wonder what you have to say or[br]how you feel about what I believe is

0:23:29.400,0:23:35.120
a necessity to transmute this imperative.

0:23:35.120,0:23:41.345
And this is perhaps something[br]that can be picked up.

0:23:41.345,0:23:41.393
I agree children aren't all the same, God knows.

0:23:41.393,0:23:53.459
But we also need, I think, some input in[br]terms of direction, guidance and exposure,

0:23:53.459,0:23:53.514
and input in regard to the[br]heritage that is [inaudible].

0:23:53.514,0:23:55.222
John: All right, that's a good question.

0:23:55.222,0:23:56.520
Woman: Okay.[br]John: I'm familiar with it.

0:23:56.520,0:23:57.680
I've heard it.

0:23:57.680,0:24:00.160
I'd love to answer it, perhaps just take out very,

0:24:00.160,0:24:04.520
very briefly now, and we can go back[br]to it later and spend more time on it.

0:24:04.520,0:24:07.480
It's extremely important, in the first place,

0:24:07.480,0:24:11.640
in thinking about these things,[br]to use language accurately.

0:24:11.640,0:24:17.160
And we really have to understand the[br]difference between exposure and coercion.

0:24:17.160,0:24:19.240
Now, there's a big difference between putting –

0:24:19.240,0:24:23.240
I mean, we just went out to dinner.

0:24:23.240,0:24:27.240
The Baskins, and I and Heather,[br]we just had dinner together.

0:24:27.240,0:24:31.760
And there was the menu, and there were[br]things on different people's plates,

0:24:31.760,0:24:35.560
and we would say, "Here are some[br]capers in front of my veal."

0:24:35.560,0:24:38.600
And so we said to Heather,[br]"Would you like to try caper?"

0:24:38.600,0:24:41.520
Heather did not want to try a caper.

0:24:41.520,0:24:43.260
Well, that's exposure.

0:24:43.260,0:24:46.880
There are different kinds of food there,[br]and we say, "Would you like to try some?"

0:24:46.880,0:24:47.320
"No."

0:24:47.320,0:24:47.840
"Okay."

0:24:47.840,0:24:48.040
"No."

0:24:48.920,0:24:52.760
That's not at all the same thing as putting some[br]capers in front of Heather and saying, "You can't

0:24:52.760,0:24:56.160
leave the table until you've eaten them,"[br]or, "You can't have any dessert," or holding

0:24:56.160,0:25:06.120
her by the nose and pushing one in, which is[br]exposure as it is practiced in formal education.

0:25:06.120,0:25:08.500
There's no exposure unless you can't say no to it.

0:25:08.500,0:25:11.440
If you can't say no, it's coercion.

0:25:11.440,0:25:16.240
Really very, very, very important[br]to understand that difference,

0:25:16.240,0:25:17.800
and it's difficult, apparently.

0:25:17.800,0:25:24.120
Now, I'm just going to assert for the[br]moment that I am opposed to all forms

0:25:24.120,0:25:28.560
of coerced – or all attempts to coerce learning.

0:25:28.560,0:25:32.980
I meant to say after I had said[br]that learning is not the product of teaching,

0:25:32.980,0:25:37.840
I meant to say that teaching which[br]has not been asked for by the learner –

0:25:37.840,0:25:42.240
virtually without exception –[br]impedes and prevents learning,

0:25:42.240,0:25:48.040
and before very long will kill[br]most of the desire for learning itself.

0:25:48.040,0:25:54.200
I will say that forced learning[br]is faked learning.

0:25:54.200,0:25:58.960
I had the great traditions of culture,[br]etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. –

0:25:58.960,0:26:03.520
by which I suppose we mean Shakespeare[br]or whatever – thrust at me.

0:26:03.520,0:26:05.520
I was clever about[br]playing the school game.

0:26:05.520,0:26:06.600
I could do that trick.

0:26:06.600,0:26:08.240
And so I got my A's and B's,

0:26:08.240,0:26:11.040
and went to high-powered[br]schools and colleges, and so forth.

0:26:11.040,0:26:15.240
Most of the people who are told[br]to play this trick cannot play it,

0:26:15.240,0:26:21.680
don't play it well,[br]fail to play it altogether.

0:26:22.720,0:26:23.440
We have to understand,

0:26:23.440,0:26:25.760
we're going to probably have[br]to agree to disagree about this,

0:26:25.760,0:26:28.400
because nobody is going to be –

0:26:28.400,0:26:33.040
nobody who walks into a room[br]believing in some kind of forced learning

0:26:33.040,0:26:35.480
is going to walk out of the room[br]not believing in it

0:26:35.480,0:26:39.440
because they've heard me preach[br]this little mini-sermon about it.

0:26:39.440,0:26:41.360
But I want you[br]to be very clear about –

0:26:42.080,0:26:43.200
And I should say, by the way,

0:26:43.200,0:26:51.840
that I suspect that the number of[br]homeschoolers or alternative school people

0:26:51.840,0:26:56.360
who really agree with me[br]is probably well under 50%.

0:26:56.360,0:27:02.120
I mean, I think this is a minority view,[br]even among homeschoolers.

0:27:02.120,0:27:10.480
You don't have to believe what I just said to[br]be a homeschooler or run an alternative school.

0:27:10.480,0:27:15.480
But I'm the one who's sitting up here[br]and that's what I think. [Laughter]

0:27:15.480,0:27:17.520
{I think - you see}

0:27:17.520,0:27:23.600
If it is part of the cultural tradition,[br]it is there.

0:27:23.600,0:27:26.760
Children are very interested[br]in what is there,

0:27:26.760,0:27:31.120
and they're extremely interested[br]in what is most interesting to us.

0:27:31.120,0:27:34.000
And Shakespeare[br]is not interesting to adults,

0:27:34.000,0:27:39.600
except a handful of English teachers[br]who make a specialty of teaching,

0:27:40.280,0:27:42.200
and a fairly small handful of actors

0:27:42.200,0:27:45.460
who every so often take a shot[br]at producing one of his plays.

0:27:45.460,0:27:47.480
It usually loses money.

0:27:47.480,0:27:52.029
But other than that,[br]people don't read it.

0:27:52.029,0:27:58.440
All right, I don't want to[br]go on too long [inaudible].

0:27:58.440,0:28:03.000
But what people really care about –[br]a good example is music.

0:28:03.000,0:28:05.920
There are not very many[br]households in the United States

0:28:05.920,0:28:10.360
where people read Shakespeare just[br]for the sheer, solid pleasure of doing it.

0:28:10.360,0:28:12.360
They get this.

0:28:12.360,0:28:13.800
I've just been reading[br]some of the plays.

0:28:13.800,0:28:15.600
So, some of[br]the tragedies are lovely.

0:28:15.600,0:28:21.460
But I don't know anything in the world less[br]funny than Shakespeare trying to be funny.

0:28:21.460,0:28:23.200
Mmm!

0:28:23.200,0:28:28.600
Maybe someday, some really bold soul will[br]cut out those ponderous exchanges of puns.

0:28:28.600,0:28:31.400
It will be a great day for[br]the Bard when that happens.

0:28:31.400,0:28:34.280
I mean, they rolled in the aisles when[br]he wrote this stuff, and he knew that.

0:28:34.280,0:28:36.840
He was a practical man in the theater.

0:28:36.840,0:28:38.720
He put it in because he knew[br]it would make people laugh.

0:28:38.720,0:28:45.400
It doesn't make people laugh anymore,[br]it just makes you turn the page.

0:28:45.400,0:28:48.920
But there are hundreds and[br]hundreds of thousands of families

0:28:48.920,0:28:51.920
where music is[br]a central part of their lives,

0:28:51.920,0:28:55.320
as it's a central part of mine,[br]and in those families,

0:28:55.320,0:28:58.040
very, very few children[br]are indifferent to music.

0:28:58.760,0:29:04.640
Or let's say gardening if gardening[br]is your passion – or whatever it may be.

0:29:04.640,0:29:09.960
Children can tell from what we do what sorts[br]of things make the most difference to us.

0:29:09.960,0:29:13.480
And those are the things,[br]generally speaking, that interest them most,

0:29:13.480,0:29:16.200
unless they've gotten into[br]some rebellion kick,

0:29:16.200,0:29:19.000
and that doesn't happen[br]much in homeschooling.

0:29:19.000,0:29:23.520
So I'll ask you to let me leave it[br]at that for the time being.

0:29:24.800,0:29:29.240
No, I do not think this body[br]of whatever it is,

0:29:29.240,0:29:33.760
or this cultural tradition,[br]or whatever it is, needs to be,

0:29:33.760,0:29:42.000
or indeed can be, forced into people[br]under pressure by coercion.

0:29:42.000,0:29:43.720
If you really love Shakespeare,

0:29:43.720,0:29:46.400
go see Shakespeare plays[br]where they're performed,

0:29:46.400,0:29:48.040
and take your kids with you,

0:29:48.040,0:29:50.760
or even get a bunch of people together[br]in your neighborhood and town,

0:29:50.760,0:29:56.480
and put on an amateur production,[br]and let your kids be part of the operation.

0:29:56.480,0:30:01.280
In fact, if you really love Shakespeare,[br]you ought to be doing it anyway –

0:30:01.280,0:30:02.240
or whatever it is.

0:30:02.240,0:30:03.640
If you love music,[br]make music.

0:30:03.640,0:30:05.280
If you love gardening,[br]grow a garden.

0:30:05.280,0:30:08.200
If you love camping in the woods,[br]go camping in the woods.

0:30:08.200,0:30:10.200
If you love –[br]I don't care what it is.

0:30:10.200,0:30:20.040
But children sense that the world they get[br]from the things that we care most about.

0:30:20.040,0:30:21.840
All right.

0:30:21.840,0:30:27.560
{Let me - } I don't mean by what I say to imply[br]that I've been sort of diverted or something.

0:30:27.560,0:30:28.280
{That's very -}

0:30:28.280,0:30:30.476
It's a very central issue,[br]and I'm glad you asked -

0:30:30.476,0:30:35.320
I'm glad you[br]raised that point.

0:30:35.320,0:30:38.800
The homeschooling movement[br]is in the middle of

0:30:38.800,0:30:41.600
an extremely interesting[br]and important period

0:30:41.600,0:30:52.040
of political and legislative change –[br]and judicial, too, I would say.

0:30:52.040,0:30:55.400
Ten years ago, five years ago,[br]I think you could have said accurately

0:30:55.400,0:30:59.960
that the great majority of people[br]who were teaching their own kids,

0:30:59.960,0:31:05.680
and not just underground,[br]not just hiding out, were doing it -

0:31:05.680,0:31:07.640
were making use of[br]what you would have to call

0:31:07.640,0:31:12.400
loopholes in the law[br]of one kind or another.

0:31:12.400,0:31:15.600
Things which had been put in the law[br]not with homeschooling in mind,

0:31:15.600,0:31:20.080
but with something quite different.

0:31:20.080,0:31:23.200
In many places,[br]in many states around the country,

0:31:23.200,0:31:26.920
the compulsory school attendance laws[br]had some kind of a clause in them

0:31:26.920,0:31:33.160
about kids have to go to school or get some[br]equivalent kind of instruction or education.

0:31:33.160,0:31:38.760
Now, this clause was not put into the law[br]to make things easy for homeschoolers,

0:31:38.760,0:31:40.240
but to take care[br]of children who,

0:31:40.240,0:31:43.880
for mostly medical reasons,[br]were not able to go to school.

0:31:43.880,0:31:48.320
And they were probably thinking of[br]retarded or emotionally disturbed children

0:31:48.320,0:31:50.200
who couldn't go[br]to school because

0:31:50.200,0:31:52.320
the schools didn't want them,[br]or couldn't handle them.

0:31:52.320,0:31:57.560
So they wanted to make[br]some kind of legal alternative.

0:31:57.560,0:31:59.760
The farthest thing they could[br]have had from their minds,

0:31:59.760,0:32:02.680
the legislatures, when[br]they put these clauses in,

0:32:02.680,0:32:06.240
was that people who had[br]the choice of sending their kids to school,

0:32:06.240,0:32:11.640
people whose kids were,[br]as they say, normal,

0:32:11.640,0:32:13.480
would decide that they didn't[br]want to send them to school

0:32:13.480,0:32:15.320
so they could[br]teach them themselves.

0:32:15.320,0:32:16.960
Nevertheless, there was[br]that loophole.

0:32:16.960,0:32:20.600
And for a while, in lots of places,[br]people were slipping through.

0:32:20.600,0:32:23.680
The other great loophole[br]was the private school loophole

0:32:23.680,0:32:27.840
where many states in the country in which[br]private schools were not regulated by law

0:32:28.440,0:32:32.600
or not regulated by[br]the compulsory school attendance law –

0:32:32.600,0:32:36.800
Now, that was not done[br]to make homeschooling possible.

0:32:36.800,0:32:41.480
It was done for[br]quite other sorts of reasons.

0:32:41.480,0:32:45.160
When legislators decided that[br]private schools would not be regulated,

0:32:45.160,0:32:50.720
it was to a large degree because private[br]schools had their own police mechanisms,

0:32:50.720,0:32:55.720
they - what you would call a non-alternative[br]independent or private schools.

0:32:55.720,0:32:57.320
The rich folks' private schools have

0:32:57.320,0:33:01.120
their own National Association[br]of Independent Schools,

0:33:01.120,0:33:03.400
Midwestern Association of[br]Independent Schools –

0:33:03.400,0:33:04.352
New England –

0:33:04.352,0:33:07.720
I mean, they have their own inspectors,[br]and their own checkers-uppers-on,

0:33:07.720,0:33:11.600
and so forth,[br]and so forth.

0:33:11.600,0:33:13.960
So, they were not sort of[br]flying free in the air.

0:33:13.960,0:33:17.480
Also, legislators, I think,[br]tend to operate on the assumption

0:33:17.480,0:33:22.920
that rich people know[br]what they're doing – you know?

0:33:22.920,0:33:27.000
They say, "Private schools are expensive,"

0:33:27.000,0:33:30.160
or at least they used to be[br]thought of that way,

0:33:30.160,0:33:37.400
and that's what legislators were thinking[br]when they decided not to try to regulate them.

0:33:37.400,0:33:41.360
And they said, "If you've got 50 or[br]a hundred fairly wealthy families,

0:33:41.360,0:33:43.840
and they're all[br]satisfied with the school,

0:33:43.840,0:33:47.080
chances are something[br]has got to be going on there.".

0:33:47.080,0:33:52.794
Rich people are not terribly innovative,[br]as a general rule. [Laughter]

0:33:52.794,0:33:55.200
John: "And in any case, since they're rich,[br]even if their kids goof up,

0:33:55.200,0:33:56.840
they'll always be able to take care of them,

0:33:56.840,0:33:59.160
so we don't have to worry[br]about their being on welfare.

0:33:59.160,0:34:04.440
So generally speaking,[br]we can let them alone."

0:34:04.440,0:34:07.400
But the farthest thing in the world[br]they had in mind

0:34:07.400,0:34:11.280
was that this would be used in the way[br]that homeschoolers started to use it.

0:34:11.280,0:34:14.600
Well, that's where we were[br]roughly five or six years ago,

0:34:14.600,0:34:19.240
we were all happily crawling[br]under this fence, as it were,

0:34:19.240,0:34:25.025
pulling up the barbed wire, and[br]slipping under the bottom strand

0:34:25.025,0:34:26.920
[chuckles] – and it was[br]very nice while it lasted.

0:34:26.920,0:34:31.600
I mean, there was no regulation,[br]and no tests, and no papers to fill out.

0:34:31.600,0:34:33.840
Some states built[br]a one-page something or other

0:34:33.840,0:34:41.360
about "my home is a private school,"[br]and it was very nice,

0:34:41.360,0:34:45.320
but it perfectly obviously[br]wasn't going to last.

0:34:45.320,0:34:47.100
It was obvious to me[br]that it wasn't going to last.

0:34:47.100,0:34:51.120
It could not be made to last –[br]that as we got bigger and stronger,

0:34:51.120,0:34:55.400
and got to be heard more[br]of in one thing or another,

0:34:55.400,0:34:59.120
that people, the courts,[br]the public schools themselves,

0:34:59.120,0:35:02.200
the legislatures were going to[br]begin to pay attention and say,

0:35:02.200,0:35:07.800
"Hey, what about this?

0:35:07.800,0:35:16.517
Well, roughly about two or three years ago,[br]we began to see – I say roughly –

0:35:16.517,0:35:21.480
it differs rom state to state –[br]but we began to see the beginnings of attempts –

0:35:21.480,0:35:23.480
in some cases in the form of laws,

0:35:23.480,0:35:27.320
and in some cases in the form [br]of administrative regulations –

0:35:27.320,0:35:31.877
attempts to make homeschooling illegal[br]or virtually impossible –

0:35:31.877,0:35:38.680
in Maryland, and Georgia, and[br]in other states – for a while in California,

0:35:38.680,0:35:42.120
which had been one of[br]our chief homeschooling states –

0:35:42.120,0:35:48.880
the authorities began to try to think of[br]ways of making this very difficult.

0:35:48.880,0:35:52.840
And a couple of years ago,[br]we at Growing Without Schooling

0:35:52.840,0:35:59.340
certainly felt that the homeschooling movement[br]was in a kind of fight for its life.

0:35:59.340,0:36:01.440
Well, I don't mean to say[br]that the fight isn't over,

0:36:01.440,0:36:07.520
but in fact, none of those attempts[br]to rule out homeschooling, stamp it out,

0:36:07.520,0:36:10.600
make it impossible,[br]none of them succeeded.

0:36:10.600,0:36:18.040
In no place has a legislature written a kind of[br]anti-homeschooling law in that sense.

0:36:18.040,0:36:26.600
We've been under lots of pressure,[br]lots of pressure to do so.

0:36:26.600,0:36:27.840
{What they did start doing is}

0:36:28.560,0:36:34.200
I should say a similar thing was happening[br]in the courts in a number of states

0:36:34.200,0:36:37.640
in which people had been homeschooling[br]through the private school option.

0:36:37.640,0:36:41.200
The courts began to say a home[br]all by itself can't be a private school.

0:36:41.200,0:36:45.920
That was our situation in Virginia[br]before the law was passed there.

0:36:45.920,0:36:48.720
So the loopholes[br]were being closed up.

0:36:48.720,0:36:54.360
The fence was being repaired so that[br]animals couldn't get up through the bottom.

0:36:54.360,0:36:59.600
But at the same time, the legislatures[br]began to put some kind of a gate in the fence.

0:37:00.400,0:37:03.720
One way or another, they [br]began to try to legitimize

0:37:03.720,0:37:06.560
homeschooling, to make it [br]explicitly legal, and say,

0:37:06.560,0:37:12.160
"Yes, people can teach their own kids[br]if they do this, that, or the other."

0:37:12.160,0:37:16.480
Since then, there've been a considerable number[br]of these kinds of laws passed.

0:37:16.480,0:37:17.400
I lose track.

0:37:18.200,0:37:22.880
In GWS 44, I think – in fact,[br]when we sent it to press,

0:37:22.880,0:37:26.120
we said there were 14 states[br]considering such laws.

0:37:26.120,0:37:29.080
I believe that since then,[br]at least three of them, maybe four –

0:37:29.080,0:37:34.760
Arkansas, Wyoming,[br]New Mexico, state of Washington –

0:37:34.760,0:37:37.680
we had a very tough time[br]in the state of Washington –

0:37:37.680,0:37:46.120
have passed one or another[br]kinds of legislation

0:37:46.120,0:37:50.120
making homeschooling explicitly legal[br]with this, that, or the other condition.

0:37:50.120,0:37:53.680
And we expect[br]many more states to do that.

0:37:53.680,0:37:57.600
We'll probably see more even before[br]the end of this legislative session.

0:37:57.600,0:37:59.000
And I would hazard a rough guess

0:37:59.000,0:38:03.360
that we'll continue to see half a dozen[br]or a dozen states a year doing this,

0:38:03.360,0:38:07.160
and dozens, perhaps,[br]to many a year.

0:38:07.160,0:38:14.200
And I would say that, oh, within five years,[br]we will probably see very few states

0:38:14.200,0:38:22.920
in which there is not some explicit reference[br]to homeschooling in the law.

0:38:22.920,0:38:27.600
Now, I consider this an extraordinarily[br]important move forward, even though,

0:38:27.600,0:38:33.320
in many cases, I'm not happy with[br]the qualifying restrictions.

0:38:33.320,0:38:40.480
Many of them talk about the use of[br]standardized achievement tests.

0:38:41.600,0:38:45.640
Though that is not a problem[br]for probably 80% of homeschoolers,

0:38:45.640,0:38:47.400
it can be[br]a very serious problem

0:38:47.400,0:38:53.800
for people whose children are late starters[br]in reading, or in whatever else it may be,

0:38:53.800,0:38:57.440
or happen not to like arithmetic,[br]or be a little afraid of it, or something.

0:39:01.160,0:39:05.440
And I think it's[br]a very important step forward

0:39:05.440,0:39:19.480
that legislators are beginning to see[br]homeschooling as a legitimate activity,

0:39:19.480,0:39:25.240
rather than some kind of[br]weird, strange, outlaw idea.

0:39:25.240,0:39:32.080
Now, what I think we have to do, along with[br]getting more of these kinds of laws passed –

0:39:32.080,0:39:40.440
and we'll probably be 10 or 15 years at it –[br]is educating the legislatures,

0:39:40.440,0:39:44.600
and particularly the individual legislators –

0:39:44.600,0:39:51.160
away from rigid curriculums,[br]standardized achievement tests,

0:39:51.160,0:39:55.840
all kinds of attempts to reduce[br]human beings to numbers.

0:39:58.040,0:40:01.400
I think a lot of them are ready[br]to say now, in fact,

0:40:01.400,0:40:02.880
"Well, yeah, people[br]can teach their own kids

0:40:02.880,0:40:04.680
if they do it just the way[br]the schools do it."

0:40:04.680,0:40:07.640
But that's obviously[br]not satisfactory.

0:40:07.640,0:40:11.560
But we have to get them to see –[br]in one way or another,

0:40:11.560,0:40:14.840
to get into law[br]at least some of the spirit

0:40:14.840,0:40:16.920
in which I talked to you[br]at the beginning of this meeting –

0:40:16.920,0:40:26.240
some feeling that there are other ways[br]besides the rigid curriculums of schools,

0:40:26.240,0:40:28.560
and the endless[br]little numerical tests.

0:40:28.560,0:40:33.200
There are other ways[br]of observing and taking note of learning,

0:40:33.200,0:40:36.300
of observing children's growth[br]in the world, and so forth.

0:40:36.300,0:40:40.680
Now, this is already being done,[br]of course, in some places.

0:40:40.680,0:40:45.160
But I would like to see,[br]for example, something in the law,

0:40:45.160,0:40:48.960
some kind of amendment[br]somewhere down the line

0:40:48.960,0:40:54.040
saying that parents and educational authorities,[br]in evaluating the learning of children,

0:40:54.040,0:40:59.040
may use, but shall not be[br]required to use or restricted to using,

0:40:59.040,0:41:03.880
standardized and[br]other numerical tests.

0:41:03.880,0:41:09.760
I don't think very many legislatures would pass[br]such a resolution if we introduced it tomorrow.

0:41:09.760,0:41:11.840
But I think if we do[br]the right sorts of things,

0:41:11.840,0:41:14.000
that it's very possible that[br]a great many of them

0:41:14.000,0:41:22.600
will do so by, let's say,[br]a decade from now.

0:41:22.600,0:41:26.880
I speak of educating legislators,[br]and I'm not at all thinking of lobbying groups.

0:41:26.880,0:41:29.820
What I have in mind[br]is that homeschoolers –

0:41:29.820,0:41:34.660
and also, again, insofar as[br]they are encumbered by the law –

0:41:34.660,0:41:39.760
alternative schoolers must get to know[br]their own legislators personally,

0:41:39.760,0:41:42.320
individually, meet them,[br]go see them,

0:41:42.320,0:41:46.320
take their children,[br]become a kind of pen pal,

0:41:46.320,0:41:48.800
write them occasional letters saying,

0:41:48.800,0:41:52.160
"Thought you might be interested to hear[br]what my kids are up to recently.

0:41:52.160,0:41:53.800
The other day we went,

0:41:53.800,0:41:58.360
and my eight-year-old child[br]took 25 books out of the library,

0:41:58.360,0:42:04.240
which is more books than most school kids[br]read in a year, or two, or five."

0:42:06.240,0:42:12.160
We have got to begin to get into a kind of[br]continuing communication with these people,

0:42:12.160,0:42:15.360
so they begin to understand,[br]as we understand,

0:42:15.360,0:42:19.960
how this organic,[br]natural learning takes place.

0:42:19.960,0:42:22.720
And of course, if bad bills[br]get introduced, of course,

0:42:22.720,0:42:26.200
we all have to hustle down to[br]the state capitol and do that number –

0:42:26.200,0:42:29.520
and obviously,[br]we've been very good at it.

0:42:29.520,0:42:30.520
But that's not all.

0:42:30.520,0:42:34.760
I mean, "I don't write my legislator[br]except when some kind of legislation

0:42:34.760,0:42:36.520
is coming up that I'm worried about,"

0:42:36.520,0:42:38.040
this doesn't seem to me[br]to be enough.

0:42:38.040,0:42:42.840
I really think we have to try –[br]as far as we can –

0:42:42.840,0:42:47.640
we have to try to bring these people[br]into the homeschooling family –

0:42:47.640,0:42:52.520
and it is a family –[br]a collection of families.

0:42:52.520,0:42:58.480
So I see this as the main part

0:42:58.480,0:43:04.560
of the future of homeschooling[br]in the next decade or so.

0:43:04.560,0:43:08.480
I think alternative schools[br]can play a very important part in this –

0:43:08.480,0:43:11.840
as indeed the Clonlara School[br]and the Santa Fe Community School

0:43:11.840,0:43:14.080
and a number[br]of others already have –

0:43:14.080,0:43:21.080
by providing a kind of[br]support for homeschooling families.

0:43:22.040,0:43:24.713
I don't know if Santa Fe[br]was the first school to do that.

0:43:24.713,0:43:27.120
It was the first one I knew about[br]that was doing it – but anyway.

0:43:28.720,0:43:36.080
And by now, we have a number of independent[br]alternative schools around the country,

0:43:36.080,0:43:41.920
which not only have[br]their own buildings and classes –

0:43:41.920,0:43:43.560
there's a physical school[br]there in place –

0:43:43.560,0:43:51.000
but they also provide a kind of legal and[br]educational support to homeschooling families.

0:43:51.000,0:43:55.320
Many of you might be on the[br]other end of the country.

0:43:55.320,0:44:01.520
I would like to see a much larger network[br]of these kinds of schools.

0:44:01.520,0:44:05.840
We now have – oh, I guess around[br]the United States – several dozen.

0:44:05.840,0:44:11.600
But we'd be in a very much stronger position[br]if we had many hundreds of them.

0:44:11.600,0:44:15.840
Let's see here.

0:44:15.840,0:44:22.960
Excuse me a sec here.

0:44:22.960,0:44:26.040
Amazing machines here.

0:44:26.040,0:44:29.160
I think these small tape recorders –

0:44:29.160,0:44:34.080
and they now have really[br]quite astonishing sound quality –

0:44:34.080,0:44:37.000
are one of the great[br]educational tools of our time.

0:44:37.000,0:44:39.960
And for all the talk[br]about computers,

0:44:39.960,0:44:44.000
I think this is a gadget which has[br]many other kinds of possibilities,

0:44:44.000,0:44:48.320
which I don't think we have done[br]as much with as we might.

0:44:48.320,0:44:53.400
Like typewriters, this is a machine which[br]is really fascinating to a lot of children –

0:44:53.400,0:44:59.320
the experience of saying things into it[br]and then hearing them back –

0:44:59.320,0:45:01.040
very strange,[br]very powerful.

0:45:05.640,0:45:09.080
All right.[br]Now, let's see.

0:45:09.080,0:45:13.240
So, I was talking about[br]a very large network –

0:45:13.240,0:45:18.120
hundreds, thousands –[br]of alternative schools,

0:45:18.120,0:45:22.832
independent schools around the country[br]– in some cases, public schools –

0:45:22.832,0:45:25.720
because there are public schools[br]that also offer this kind of support.

0:45:25.720,0:45:33.960
The number is not very large,[br]but it's also growing.

0:45:33.960,0:45:34.320
All right, now.

0:45:34.320,0:45:39.960
I want to switch to a different –[br]in the last part of this talk,

0:45:39.960,0:45:43.000
to a look at the future[br]in a quite different sense –

0:45:43.000,0:45:46.280
not the future of homeschooling,[br]or the future of alternative schooling,

0:45:46.280,0:45:53.760
but the future of the world –[br]particularly of this country.

0:45:53.760,0:45:57.480
First thing I have to say is that everybody[br]who talks about the future is guessing.

0:45:57.480,0:45:58.040
Nobody knows.

0:45:58.040,0:45:58.800
There is no future.

0:45:58.800,0:46:00.080
It doesn't exist.

0:46:00.080,0:46:05.200
It isn't as if we're riding along[br]on a train and 20 miles down the track

0:46:05.200,0:46:07.120
there was a station[br]that we were going to pull into,

0:46:07.120,0:46:09.720
and it was just a matter of[br]talking about what it was.

0:46:09.720,0:46:12.240
The future isn't there.

0:46:12.240,0:46:20.680
We make it as we live.

0:46:20.680,0:46:21.480
{Most of the people}

0:46:21.480,0:46:23.520
I'm extremely skeptical, I have to say,

0:46:23.520,0:46:25.360
of most of the people[br]who are making a living –

0:46:25.360,0:46:29.200
and quite a lot of them are,[br]and they're living a lot fancier than I am –

0:46:29.200,0:46:31.200
talking about this future.

0:46:31.200,0:46:35.440
And mostly what they do is they find[br]some kind of a graph that goes up to 1985,

0:46:35.440,0:46:38.080
and then they just keep[br]running it up the page.

0:46:38.080,0:46:42.080
Well If predicting the future[br]were that easy, we'd all be billionaires,

0:46:42.080,0:46:44.360
because we'd just look at[br]the stock market quotations,

0:46:44.360,0:46:47.600
and see what stock had been going up[br]for the last week, and then buy it.

0:46:47.600,0:46:55.200
The problem is the graph[br]doesn't always keep going up.

0:46:55.200,0:46:59.800
There are an awful lot of high-powered people[br]in this country connected with the oil business,

0:46:59.800,0:47:04.000
connected with the government,[br]connected with the defense industry

0:47:04.000,0:47:08.320
who made it their business to know[br]what was going on in the world of oil.

0:47:08.320,0:47:11.780
And none – not one,[br]not a single one of these people –

0:47:11.780,0:47:16.840
predicted what came to be called[br]the "oil crisis – when was it, ten years ago?

0:47:16.840,0:47:19.400
Nobody predicted it.

0:47:19.400,0:47:22.660
And nobody, with a few possible exceptions –

0:47:22.660,0:47:25.600
maybe Amory Lovins,[br]maybe a few conservationists –

0:47:25.600,0:47:28.720
once we were in the middle of[br]that terrible crisis –

0:47:28.720,0:47:33.200
predicted that in five or less than 10 years[br]we were going to be out of it,

0:47:33.200,0:47:38.120
because we would smarten[br]up and start saving energy.

0:47:38.120,0:47:43.400
The oil crisis came by surprise[br]and went by surprise.

0:47:43.400,0:47:45.320
So, it's not easy.

0:47:45.320,0:47:49.473
One of the big future books that's –

0:47:49.473,0:47:53.640
boy, I wish I had 10%[br]of the money that it's made –

0:47:53.640,0:47:58.480
talks about the Sun Belt[br]and the motion of industry,

0:47:58.480,0:48:01.160
the economic flight from[br]the North to the Sun Belt,

0:48:01.160,0:48:06.040
and it says this is a major[br]trend in American history,

0:48:06.040,0:48:08.000
and it's irreversible,[br]and it's going to continue.

0:48:08.000,0:48:09.760
We can just see more and[br]more of this happening.

0:48:09.760,0:48:13.080
Well, I get a certain[br]wry amusement out of this.

0:48:13.080,0:48:16.720
I come from the old Frost Belt[br]up there in New England,

0:48:16.720,0:48:20.791
and we are the most –[br]as regions go at the moment –

0:48:20.791,0:48:23.760
probably the most[br]economically prosperous region of the country.

0:48:23.760,0:48:25.440
We have the lowest[br]unemployment rate.

0:48:25.440,0:48:27.480
My home state of Massachusetts has

0:48:27.480,0:48:32.360
the lowest unemployment rate [br]in any industrial state.

0:48:32.360,0:48:36.980
My home city of Boston has[br]what they call an office vacancy rate of 1%.

0:48:36.980,0:48:41.120
Of course, Houston[br]has about 30%.

0:48:42.480,0:48:47.280
So, the old Frost Belt[br]isn't doing too bad.

0:48:47.280,0:48:50.720
Right now what we're[br]worried about is drought.

0:48:51.920,0:48:56.000
But that's going to be[br]a big problem for the whole country.

0:48:56.000,0:48:56.920
Very, very hard.

0:48:56.920,0:48:59.080
But there are some indicators.

0:48:59.080,0:48:59.880
Nothing is certain.

0:48:59.880,0:49:02.200
There are some indicators[br]that give us, I think,

0:49:02.200,0:49:06.840
a pretty strong indication of[br]the way some things are likely to go.

0:49:06.840,0:49:11.360
There are really big, big,[br]deep sort of trends,

0:49:11.360,0:49:15.280
and I want to talk about[br]just one of them tonight.

0:49:15.280,0:49:21.160
[Coughs] Excuse me.

0:49:21.160,0:49:31.320
The Boston Globe, our local bladder,[br][laughter] is a kind of nice paper.

0:49:31.320,0:49:32.880
I don't know how much[br]news is in it,

0:49:32.880,0:49:34.040
but it has a lot[br]of good writers,

0:49:34.040,0:49:35.800
and they have[br]quite a lot of fun.

0:49:35.800,0:49:45.320
So, it's an entertaining sheet,[br]and not bad, as these things go.

0:49:45.320,0:49:48.320
It had an article[br]a year and a half ago, maybe,

0:49:48.320,0:49:53.920
about wages in different parts[br]of the world – industrial wages.

0:49:53.920,0:49:59.640
And there's a map,[br]a nice big-page article.

0:49:59.640,0:50:03.760
And they were comparing a[br]verage hourly industrial wages

0:50:03.760,0:50:09.080
in the world's manufacturing countries.

0:50:09.080,0:50:12.240
Now, economists, I guess,[br]could spend the whole weekend

0:50:12.240,0:50:14.040
talking about how you[br]achieve these figures,

0:50:14.040,0:50:16.000
and how you balance out[br]this versus that,

0:50:16.000,0:50:19.320
how you figure out benign climates[br]versus cold climates,

0:50:19.320,0:50:21.760
and what do you do[br]about fringe benefits,

0:50:21.760,0:50:22.720
and this, that,[br]and the other.

0:50:22.720,0:50:26.640
And I'm going to accept those figures[br]more or less as they were given to me.

0:50:27.200,0:50:32.720
And what it said was that the United States[br]had the highest average hourly industrial wage.

0:50:32.720,0:50:35.940
They didn't say what is[br]industrial and what isn't –

0:50:35.940,0:50:37.560
not to get into that.

0:50:37.560,0:50:40.960
And it was something like[br]$10.77 an hour.

0:50:40.960,0:50:43.440
And there was Canada[br]pretty close behind,

0:50:43.440,0:50:47.200
and Switzerland, and then[br]a bunch of the Western European nations –

0:50:47.200,0:50:48.640
$8.00 or so – $7.50.

0:50:49.160,0:50:52.560
And then, Japan, $5.50.

0:50:53.120,0:50:58.880
And then Mexico, Brazil,[br]some down to the $2.00, $2.50 range.

0:50:58.880,0:51:03.200
And then we got down to[br]what they call the Pacific Rim nations:

0:51:03.200,0:51:10.560
Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea,[br]a couple of others maybe,

0:51:10.560,0:51:15.600
and these were running[br]$1.25, $1.50 an hour.

0:51:15.600,0:51:17.916
And then India –

0:51:17.916,0:51:20.520
the figure they gave[br]was $0.39 an hour –

0:51:20.520,0:51:24.760
and Sri Lanka – which[br]us old cats used to call Ceylon –

0:51:24.760,0:51:28.960
near India –[br]was $0.21 an hour.

0:51:28.960,0:51:32.440
Now, those are very,

0:51:32.440,0:51:36.280
very, very significant figures[br]their legs will carry them –

0:51:36.280,0:51:42.160
At one point in the article,[br]they quoted a young woman

0:51:42.160,0:51:45.680
who's working in one of these[br]new electronic shops in Hong Kong

0:51:45.680,0:51:48.400
where the American[br]computer manufacturers

0:51:48.400,0:51:51.680
are fleeing just as fast as[br]their legs will carry them –

0:51:51.680,0:51:54.920
those that are still in[br]business at all, I should add.

0:51:55.480,0:52:01.800
And that little future balloon[br]went down in a big hurry,

0:52:01.800,0:52:06.120
and has yet further to go,[br]I will add.

0:52:06.120,0:52:10.960
That revolution lasted about[br]two or three years.

0:52:13.800,0:52:15.880
But someone was talking[br]to this young woman

0:52:15.880,0:52:22.720
who's earning $1.22 an hour,[br]making whatever it is,

0:52:22.720,0:52:26.320
and just happy as a clam[br]to be enjoying this wage

0:52:26.320,0:52:29.320
which was probably ten times,[br]five times higher

0:52:29.320,0:52:32.760
than anything they[br]had seen a decade before.

0:52:32.760,0:52:37.360
And she said, "Of course, we know[br]it's only going to be a matter of time

0:52:37.360,0:52:43.400
before the jobs all go[br]to someplace like Sri Lanka,

0:52:43.400,0:52:49.560
where they only have[br]to pay $0.21 an hour.

0:52:49.560,0:52:58.280
And the picture for me is of jobs as[br]a kind of great flock of migratory birds,

0:52:58.280,0:53:02.260
which fly from one place to another

0:53:02.260,0:53:08.280
and settle down and deposit a certain[br]amount of wealth there while they're there,

0:53:08.280,0:53:09.840
but soon they'll take off again

0:53:09.840,0:53:13.560
l ooking for some other place[br]where the wages are even lower.

0:53:13.560,0:53:15.240
And that's not[br]a bad figure of speech.

0:53:15.240,0:53:18.920
We saw that happen in this country[br]when the northern industries –

0:53:18.920,0:53:22.400
this was certainly true of[br]the mills in New England –

0:53:22.400,0:53:27.400
went down south where they could get[br]non-union and cheaper labor.

0:53:30.800,0:53:35.000
With the modern mobility of capital[br]in the multinational corporation,

0:53:35.000,0:53:38.880
jobs do in fact tend to –[br]many of them anyway –

0:53:38.880,0:53:42.440
are pretty free to migrate[br]to where the wages are lowest,

0:53:42.440,0:53:46.340
and that's where[br]they're going to roost.

0:53:46.340,0:53:52.280
Now, one of the things that struck me about that[br]article was that nothing was said about China.

0:53:52.280,0:53:53.260
And I found myself wondering,

0:53:53.260,0:53:55.160
"Hey, where do the Chinese[br]fit into this picture?"

0:53:55.160,0:53:59.240
Why, they're probably under a dollar an hour,[br]$0.50 an hour maybe, I thought.

0:53:59.240,0:54:03.080
At any rate, it had to be[br]a pretty low figure.

0:54:03.080,0:54:11.400
Under a billion people[br]in that country.

0:54:11.400,0:54:18.360
Recently, my question was answered[br]more or less reliably by another article,

0:54:18.360,0:54:23.640
this time in the "Christian Science Monitor,"[br]and this wasn't about economics at all,

0:54:23.640,0:54:26.120
it was about[br]a British rock group called "Wham,"

0:54:26.120,0:54:32.880
which has just gone to China and caused[br]a great upheaval of various kinds there.

0:54:32.880,0:54:37.640
But like all things Western, it's very popular[br]with the young people in the new China.

0:54:37.640,0:54:43.840
The article described a young Chinese workman[br]standing in line for five or six hours –

0:54:43.840,0:54:49.240
just like his American counterparts –[br]to buy a ticket to hear Wham.

0:54:49.240,0:54:52.000
And it said in passing that he[br]had to pay – for this ticket –

0:54:52.000,0:55:06.480
he had to pay 5 yuan –[br]parenthesis, $1.75 – or 2 days' wages.

0:55:06.480,0:55:09.840
Two days' wages.

0:55:09.840,0:55:18.560
If you figure an 8-hour day, we're talking about[br]just a little bit more than $0.10 an hour.

0:55:18.560,0:55:20.680
And there are[br]a billion people over there,

0:55:20.680,0:55:26.320
most of whom are ready and eager[br]to work at that kind of wage.

0:55:29.640,0:55:34.520
Now, this is bound to have a lot[br]to say about not only our future,

0:55:34.520,0:55:36.680
but the future of[br]all of what we think of

0:55:36.680,0:55:44.280
as the highly-developed wealthy countries[br]of the North Atlantic, let's say, community.

0:55:44.280,0:55:48.600
Given, again, the mobility of capital,

0:55:48.600,0:55:54.000
there is no possible way that the [br]wealthy countries of the world

0:55:54.000,0:56:02.940
are going to be able to employ[br]their populations at $10 or $9 or $8 or $7,

0:56:02.940,0:56:06.480
or for that matter Japan,[br]$5.50 an hour.

0:56:06.480,0:56:11.080
They're not going to[br]be able to do it.

0:56:11.080,0:56:14.880
In other words, as nearly as[br]one can say anything about the future,

0:56:14.880,0:56:17.000
it is certain that[br]the rich countries of the world

0:56:17.000,0:56:26.240
are going to get a lot less rich,[br]as we have defined rich.

0:56:28.880,0:56:32.240
And what the consequences of that[br]may be, we've talked for a long time –

0:56:32.240,0:56:33.880
there could be[br]whole conferences –

0:56:33.880,0:56:37.600
I hope someday here will be[br]if there are not any yet –

0:56:37.600,0:56:39.760
about what this really means.

0:56:39.760,0:56:44.320
None of the people who were[br]running for election in the last campaign –

0:56:44.320,0:56:47.240
even those who talk[br]glibly about new ideas –

0:56:47.240,0:56:51.400
none of them seem to have[br]the faintest idea that this is going on,

0:56:51.400,0:56:54.120
or what this means,[br]or what they might do with it.

0:56:54.120,0:56:56.240
This is going to call for[br]a lot of hard thinking.

0:56:56.240,0:56:59.260
To say just a very[br]short thing about us,

0:56:59.260,0:57:01.840
I'd say we're going to have to[br]rediscover thrift in this country.

0:57:01.840,0:57:10.960
We're going to have to discover that efficiency[br]is not the same thing as making a lot of stuff.

0:57:10.960,0:57:14.680
We're going to[br]have to rediscover –

0:57:14.680,0:57:16.880
learn how to do[br]the most with the least.

0:57:16.880,0:57:21.000
Old New England motto:[br]"Wear it out –"

0:57:21.000,0:57:21.640
Let's see, no.

0:57:21.640,0:57:24.760
"Use it up, wear it out,[br]make it do, do without" –

0:57:24.760,0:57:26.400
the old Yankee saying.

0:57:26.400,0:57:30.720
Or old Ben's,[br]"A penny saved is a penny earned."

0:57:30.720,0:57:32.480
We're going to rediscover[br]the truth of that.

0:57:32.480,0:57:38.040
We're going to start learning[br]how to darn socks again.

0:57:38.040,0:57:39.440
I don't think[br]that's a bad thing.

0:57:39.440,0:57:48.120
I think we'll be probably a very much better,[br]more interesting, more equitable country

0:57:48.120,0:57:55.240
if we learn to revise our ideas about[br]what is true wealth, what is true efficiency.

0:57:55.240,0:58:00.480
But that's a big topic, and it's not really[br]the topic we've come here to discuss.{I just}

0:58:00.480,0:58:03.080
If we're going to be talking[br]or thinking about the future,

0:58:03.080,0:58:09.240
I think this is an element in it[br]that we can't afford to neglect.

0:58:09.240,0:58:12.400
Okay, well that's all[br]for the big formal speech,

0:58:12.400,0:58:15.680
if it struck you that way.

0:58:16.880,0:58:23.200
So now we can move into[br]some kind of questions, discussion,

0:58:23.200,0:58:26.840
comment on whatever[br]you want to talk about.

0:58:26.840,0:58:28.960
I mean, we can talk about[br]any of the things I've talked about,

0:58:28.960,0:58:31.440
or if you came here wanting[br]to talk about something else,

0:58:31.440,0:58:32.680
we can talk about that too,

0:58:32.680,0:58:34.800
unless I don't know[br]anything at all about it,

0:58:34.800,0:58:37.360
I will tell you.

0:58:37.360,0:58:39.840
I can tell you how to[br]begin on the cello.

0:58:39.840,0:58:43.800
I can't tell you how to become[br]a "magnificent" player.

0:58:43.800,0:58:50.880
Well, as soon as I learn,[br]I will tell you that.

0:58:50.880,0:58:52.160
Sir.

0:58:52.160,0:58:52.708
Jerry Mintz: Hi.

0:58:52.708,0:58:53.464
Jerry Mintz from

0:58:53.464,0:58:55.114
Shaker Mountain School in [br]Vermont. {We can't hear you.}

0:58:55.114,0:58:58.760
John: Oh, hi, Jerry.[br]{I just hope}

0:58:58.760,0:59:01.000
Jerry:One thing I was thinking[br]about is that you missed,

0:59:01.000,0:59:03.240
somewhere between[br]Ceylon and India,

0:59:03.240,0:59:10.279
the wages of[br]alternative school people.

0:59:10.279,0:59:10.289
[Laughter]

0:59:10.289,0:59:10.304
John: Yes. Yes.

0:59:10.304,0:59:12.920
Jerry Mintz: It may mean that the industry[br]may flock to the free schools.

0:59:12.920,0:59:16.680
I'm not sure.[br][Laughter]

0:59:16.680,0:59:21.840
One thing I was wondering about is[br]what you think the difference is

0:59:21.840,0:59:27.440
between parents who are[br]exposing their kids to education

0:59:27.440,0:59:29.560
or to learning[br]without coercion

0:59:29.560,0:59:34.320
and schools that are exposing[br]their kids to learning without coercion.

0:59:34.320,0:59:38.320
And our school doesn't require kids[br]to go to any particular classes.

0:59:38.320,0:59:40.240
And on the other[br]side of the coin,

0:59:40.240,0:59:43.240
the difference between parents[br]who are coercing their kids

0:59:43.240,0:59:46.260
and schools that are[br]coercing their kids.

0:59:46.260,0:59:49.560
John: Well, the key difference[br]for me is the difference

0:59:49.560,0:59:52.360
between coercion[br]and non-coercion.

0:59:52.360,0:59:58.000
In other words, if I thought that[br]the homeschooling movement

0:59:58.000,1:00:00.760
was made up[br]largely or entirely

1:00:00.760,1:00:03.240
of people who wanted[br]to coerce their kids

1:00:03.240,1:00:05.760
and just thought they could do[br]a better job of it than schools could,

1:00:05.760,1:00:09.440
I wouldn't have spent[br]two minutes on this activity.

1:00:09.440,1:00:11.160
My interest in homeschooling,

1:00:11.160,1:00:12.840
and, for that matter,[br]alternative schooling –

1:00:12.840,1:00:14.760
and I was interested[br]in alternative schools

1:00:14.760,1:00:19.120
before I became[br]interested in homeschooling –

1:00:19.120,1:00:23.120
my interest in it is that[br]it makes it at least possible –

1:00:23.120,1:00:25.320
for those people who want[br]to give their children

1:00:25.320,1:00:29.600
a natural, organic, uncoerced[br]learning experience – to do so.

1:00:29.600,1:00:32.280
Not everybody is going[br]to use it that way.

1:00:32.280,1:00:37.120
People start schools[br]which they hope will be

1:00:37.120,1:00:39.920
even more coercive[br]than the schools that exist.

1:00:39.920,1:00:42.640
There are certainly some people[br]who teach their children

1:00:42.640,1:00:45.400
thinking that they can[br]pound in learning faster than

1:00:45.400,1:00:47.040
the local schools[br]were doing it.

1:00:47.040,1:00:48.960
I don't think many of them[br]stick it out very long

1:00:48.960,1:00:53.160
because they find out[br]it doesn't work.

1:00:56.560,1:01:02.600
No, I mean, if I look[br]far enough down the line,

1:01:02.600,1:01:12.400
I like to think of schools as[br]learning-experiment activity centers,

1:01:12.400,1:01:14.480
somewhat analogous[br]to public libraries,

1:01:14.480,1:01:17.000
although rather[br]wider in scope,

1:01:17.000,1:01:20.240
places to which people can come[br]if they feel like coming,

1:01:20.240,1:01:22.320
to do the things[br]that they want to do

1:01:22.320,1:01:24.920
for as long as[br]they want to do them.

1:01:24.920,1:01:31.360
And {I kind of – } I would hope that[br]somewhere we would find a way

1:01:31.360,1:01:34.840
to call these places[br]something other than schools

1:01:34.840,1:01:37.160
because they're really[br]very fundamentally very different.

1:01:37.160,1:01:42.520
"Club" would be nice if we just[br]kind of dared to do it. [Laughter]

1:01:42.520,1:01:44.680
We have a film[br]that a friend of mine,

1:01:44.680,1:01:45.720
my friend Peggy Hughes,

1:01:45.720,1:01:48.320
made in Denmark[br]of the preschool there.

1:01:48.320,1:01:51.160
The film was called[br]"We Have to Call It School."

1:01:51.160,1:01:54.200
And the film begins with[br]this young Danish teacher

1:01:54.200,1:01:56.920
there saying in English,

1:01:56.920,1:02:00.120
"We have to call it school[br]because if we didn't,

1:02:00.120,1:02:01.720
they wouldn't let[br]the children come here."

1:02:01.720,1:02:03.680
[Laughter]

1:02:03.680,1:02:06.600
But it would be nice if,[br]in our minds,

1:02:06.600,1:02:12.560
we thought about these[br]non-coercive gathering-and-activity places

1:02:12.560,1:02:15.080
as something[br]other than a school.

1:02:15.080,1:02:15.920
I like "club."

1:02:15.920,1:02:18.380
I mean, club has a –

1:02:18.380,1:02:20.800
But you can pick[br]what word you like,

1:02:20.800,1:02:24.000
or invent a brand new one.

1:02:25.040,1:02:29.520
Ultimately, I suppose I'd like to see[br]all schools evolve this way.

1:02:29.520,1:02:32.640
I don't think, certainly[br]not in my lifetime,

1:02:32.640,1:02:34.880
and not in any future[br]that I can see,

1:02:34.880,1:02:38.160
can I imagine[br]legislatures striking

1:02:38.160,1:02:42.320
compulsory attendance laws[br]off the books.

1:02:42.320,1:02:44.640
But I can imagine[br]more and more schools

1:02:44.640,1:02:48.240
defining attendance[br]in just the way you define it,

1:02:49.880,1:02:51.640
so that the difference

1:02:51.640,1:02:53.880
between being in school[br]and not being in school

1:02:53.880,1:02:55.080
gets so fuzzed over

1:02:55.080,1:02:56.920
that you can't tell any longer

1:02:56.920,1:03:02.040
when somebody is in[br]or when somebody is out.{now I don't}

1:03:02.040,1:03:03.240
Have I spoken[br]to your point,

1:03:03.240,1:03:05.140
or was there something other[br]you'd like to get out?

1:03:05.140,1:03:07.560
Jerry: In other words,[br]do you consider

1:03:07.560,1:03:10.760
that it would be[br]advantageous for a parent

1:03:10.760,1:03:14.000
to homeschool their kid[br]in a non-coercive way,

1:03:14.000,1:03:19.945
rather than let them go to[br]a school that was non-coercive?

1:03:19.945,1:03:21.480
John: Well, if you're[br]a homeschooling parent

1:03:21.480,1:03:24.080
and there was[br]in your area

1:03:24.080,1:03:27.400
a non-coercive school[br]that kids could go to,

1:03:30.200,1:03:33.440
I would be ready to leave it up to[br]those children and those parents

1:03:33.440,1:03:35.840
to decide how much[br]they wanted to make use of it.

1:03:35.840,1:03:40.120
Some families, the kids[br]would be there a lot of the time,

1:03:40.120,1:03:42.480
and other families, they might[br]not be there much of the time.

1:03:42.480,1:03:44.680
I think of my friends,[br]the Wallaces in Ithaca,

1:03:48.080,1:03:51.720
their public school system,[br]as a matter of fact, said to them,

1:03:51.720,1:03:53.360
"You're free to[br]come and use us

1:03:53.360,1:03:56.000
anywhere you want[br]or anytime you want to."

1:03:56.000,1:03:56.960
In fact, there's nothing in

1:03:56.960,1:03:58.720
the public school[br]for them to do there.

1:03:58.720,1:03:59.720
These are, by now,

1:03:59.720,1:04:01.720
two extraordinarily[br]accomplished musicians,

1:04:01.720,1:04:05.480
and they spent six, seven, eight,[br]nine, ten hours a day working on music.

1:04:05.480,1:04:07.440
What in the world[br]are they going to do?

1:04:08.160,1:04:09.520
What has school[br]got to offer them?

1:04:09.520,1:04:13.120
But if you were very interested in[br]the kinds of things

1:04:13.120,1:04:16.200
that are likely to be done at school,[br]or something that needed more people –

1:04:16.200,1:04:20.880
let's say drama, which is[br]a hard thing to do in small groups –

1:04:20.880,1:04:28.350
well, then it might be[br]very interesting for you to.

1:04:29.720,1:04:31.240
So if these resources were there,

1:04:31.240,1:04:34.280
we'd say to people,[br]children, their parents,

1:04:34.280,1:04:36.200
"Those of you who want to[br]use them a lot, use them a lot.

1:04:36.200,1:04:39.680
Those of you who want to use them[br]occasionally, use them occasionally.

1:04:39.680,1:04:43.150
I wouldn't try to make[br]that decision for anybody.

1:04:45.040,1:04:47.240
I think most homeschoolers[br]would be very glad

1:04:47.240,1:04:50.450
to have some kind of[br]gathering resource.

1:04:51.240,1:04:52.840
One of the advantages[br]of such a place

1:04:52.840,1:04:53.400
is that, of course,

1:04:53.400,1:04:57.800
a gang of people can[br]get together and buy things

1:04:57.800,1:05:00.880
which none of them by themselves[br]might be able to afford,

1:05:00.880,1:05:02.200
– make sufficient use of.

1:05:02.200,1:05:04.000
Well, they can do it now,[br]but the question is then,

1:05:04.000,1:05:05.120
"Whose house is it at?"

1:05:05.880,1:05:07.400
There get to be[br]problems like that.

1:05:08.120,1:05:11.280
If there is a central gathering[br]and meeting place,

1:05:11.280,1:05:12.960
well that's all the handier.

1:05:14.590,1:05:16.960
Now, one of[br]the reasons that I went from

1:05:16.960,1:05:19.920
thinking about alternative schools[br]to thinking about homeschooling

1:05:19.920,1:05:26.440
is that most of the alternative schools,[br]in the sense that we're using it here –

1:05:26.440,1:05:28.360
I mean, the word has[br]gotten so fuzzed up

1:05:28.360,1:05:29.840
in the public-education system

1:05:29.840,1:05:32.200
that it no longer has[br]any real meaning.

1:05:32.200,1:05:35.720
Most of the true alternative schools[br]of the late '60s and the early '70s

1:05:35.720,1:05:38.240
have long since gone,[br]mostly for lack of money.

1:05:38.800,1:05:40.240
You know how hard[br]a struggle it is,

1:05:40.240,1:05:44.890
even with Sri Lankan wages.[br][inaudible]. [Laugha]

1:05:46.360,1:05:48.480
Even with those[br]kinds of sacrifices,

1:05:48.480,1:05:51.600
very few schools[br]were ingenious enough,

1:05:51.600,1:05:54.880
or resourceful, or lucky,[br]or whatever to keep going.

1:05:54.880,1:05:56.600
We had a gang[br]up in the Boston area.

1:05:56.600,1:06:00.960
I don't think one –[br]maybe one, right? –

1:06:00.960,1:06:01.800
they've all disappeared.

1:06:01.800,1:06:03.240
A lot of them were[br]doing wonderful work.

1:06:03.240,1:06:08.040
So I began thinking,[br]what can people do

1:06:08.040,1:06:11.320
who are not able to get[br]one of these places going

1:06:11.320,1:06:13.000
and keep it together?

1:06:13.000,1:06:15.040
I suppose one of the things[br]we have to learn is

1:06:15.040,1:06:17.920
how can we do this[br]in a way that costs less money

1:06:17.920,1:06:22.040
without starving and[br]not going into Ethiopian wages,

1:06:22.040,1:06:23.680
or something like that.[br][Laughter]

1:06:23.680,1:06:24.960
We don't want[br]to do that.

1:06:27.320,1:06:30.720
All right, now I'm going to do[br]a little number thing with hands,

1:06:30.720,1:06:33.640
just so I don't forget,[br]or so we keep some kind of order.

1:06:33.640,1:06:34.480
Is it one here?

1:06:34.480,1:06:35.889
Did you all –? [br]I thought so.

1:06:35.889,1:06:37.472
Woman: I'm going to[br]ask a question.

1:06:37.472,1:06:38.940
John: All right.[br]You'll be number one.

1:06:38.940,1:06:42.000
And the second?[br]All right, second here.

1:06:42.000,1:06:43.670
Third here.

1:06:43.670,1:06:47.510
Fourth? [br]Lady in the red dress shirt.

1:06:47.510,1:06:48.356
Okay.

1:06:49.720,1:06:51.210
All right.[br]Five.

1:06:55.880,1:06:57.640
Okay.[br]Now, you have to remember.

1:06:57.640,1:06:58.600
Six?[br]Okay.

1:06:58.600,1:07:00.280
You have to[br]remember your numbers,

1:07:00.280,1:07:02.500
and you have to remember[br]where I am in the numbers,

1:07:02.500,1:07:06.310
because I'm not going to remember[br]either of those things! [Laughter]

1:07:09.560,1:07:10.269
Yes.

1:07:10.269,1:07:12.080
Woman: I'm number one.

1:07:12.080,1:07:14.400
If our children[br]are most interested in

1:07:14.400,1:07:17.124
the things that we[br]are most interested in –

1:07:18.044,1:07:19.480
John: They aren't hearing you.

1:07:19.480,1:07:21.437
Woman: They're not hearing?[br]John: No way in the world.

1:07:21.437,1:07:22.540
[Laughter][br]Woman: Okay.

1:07:23.160,1:07:24.840
John: Got to sing out.[br]Woman: Okay.

1:07:24.840,1:07:26.487
John: I mean, it is possible.

1:07:26.487,1:07:29.520
Woman: [Laughs][br]There are a lot of people here.

1:07:29.520,1:07:31.390
Woman: If our children[br]are most interested

1:07:31.390,1:07:33.880
in the things that[br]we are most interested in,

1:07:33.880,1:07:38.464
are we not then as homeschoolers[br]rearing lopsided children? And –

1:07:38.464,1:07:40.334
John: Everybody's lopsided.[br]Woman: Okay.

1:07:40.334,1:07:42.020
John: I'm lopsided.[br]You're lopsided.

1:07:42.020,1:07:45.113
All God's children[br]are lopsided. [Laughter]

1:07:45.113,1:07:46.600
Woman: And will they fill out?

1:07:46.600,1:07:48.030
John: Yeah.[br]Woman: Okay.

1:07:48.030,1:07:50.670
John: That doesn't mean to say[br]they're going to wind up

1:07:50.670,1:07:53.480
knowing everything about everything,[br]because nobody does.

1:07:53.480,1:07:55.120
But your life[br]is not just you.

1:07:55.120,1:07:56.860
You've got friends.[br]They come here.

1:07:56.860,1:07:58.650
You know people.[br]They have interests.

1:07:59.800,1:08:03.600
The child lives in kind of[br]bunch of concentric circles of family,

1:08:03.600,1:08:06.520
and then larger family,[br]and close friends of family,

1:08:06.520,1:08:08.450
and neighbors, streets.

1:08:10.280,1:08:13.520
And this world, as I say,[br]has many different layers in it.

1:08:13.520,1:08:17.800
And some of your children[br]may meet people

1:08:17.800,1:08:19.290
who happen to be[br]very interested

1:08:19.290,1:08:21.420
in things that you're[br]not much interested in,

1:08:21.420,1:08:23.080
and they may[br]pick up that interest.

1:08:23.080,1:08:25.040
That's okay.

1:08:25.040,1:08:27.920
As long as –[br]as I say, as long as –

1:08:27.920,1:08:29.120
as far as we're able to,

1:08:29.120,1:08:32.120
we make it possible for children[br]to move into the world

1:08:32.120,1:08:33.880
in whatever ways[br]they want to do it,

1:08:33.880,1:08:35.500
they're going to[br]find enough there.

1:08:35.500,1:08:37.250
Nobody's going to[br]die of starvation.

1:08:37.250,1:08:39.640
I don't care whether you live[br]on an isolated farm,

1:08:39.640,1:08:42.920
or this sterile suburb that[br]everybody loves to talk about,

1:08:42.920,1:08:45.800
or the wicked big city[br]that I live in,

1:08:45.800,1:08:50.240
the fact is that human life,[br]as people live it,

1:08:50.240,1:08:53.800
has got more than enough[br]food for thought

1:08:53.800,1:08:56.080
for children to bite into[br]and to grow.

1:08:56.080,1:08:57.600
As they feel the need of more,

1:08:57.600,1:09:00.690
they're going to know more about[br]where to go to look for it.

1:09:03.900,1:09:05.690
All right.[br]Now, let's see, two?

1:09:07.490,1:09:09.400
Woman: May I just[br]say to my friends here,

1:09:09.400,1:09:10.970
wait until[br]they get married.

1:09:11.990,1:09:13.530
John: The chldren?[br]Woman: Right.

1:09:13.530,1:09:15.000
Then their lives[br]will widen up.

1:09:15.000,1:09:17.120
Because our first just did.

1:09:17.120,1:09:19.640
I'm still at homeschooling[br]with a six-year-old.

1:09:19.640,1:09:22.320
I just want to thank you,[br]John, from my heart

1:09:22.320,1:09:24.200
for having helped us[br]very much here.

1:09:24.200,1:09:25.720
And I don't[br]have a question.

1:09:25.720,1:09:26.980
But I wanted to tell you

1:09:26.980,1:09:29.680
that today, my sister-in-law[br]had to hang up the phone

1:09:29.680,1:09:34.080
in order to go across the street[br]to walk her third-grader home

1:09:34.080,1:09:38.280
because she has been molested[br]within 400 feet of her own home.

1:09:38.280,1:09:41.190
And this doesn't even state[br]how I feel about the fact

1:09:41.190,1:09:43.420
that they're not learning going[br]to these places

1:09:43.420,1:09:47.950
that are supposed to be teaching –[br]or pouring it in, as you say.

1:09:48.440,1:09:51.320
I don't think that[br]we have to defend ourselves

1:09:51.320,1:09:53.560
any more than if you're[br]walking down the street

1:09:53.560,1:09:55.400
and someone starts to kill you,

1:09:55.400,1:09:57.560
because I believe[br]taking my children out of

1:09:57.560,1:09:59.960
the public school system[br]saved their lives,

1:09:59.960,1:10:05.200
not just morally, religiously,[br]mentally – every way possible.

1:10:05.200,1:10:07.880
And I appreciated[br]the story in GWS

1:10:07.880,1:10:11.480
about the little girl who was[br]diagnosed as terminally ill

1:10:11.480,1:10:15.880
because this was worth[br]all the pennies I paid,

1:10:15.880,1:10:17.930
the pink wage we[br]pay you for GWS.

1:10:17.930,1:10:20.465
Thank you, John,[br]very much.

1:10:20.465,1:10:25.095
John: Well, you're welcome.[br][Applause]

1:10:25.385,1:10:28.160
We had an interesting story[br]in the Globe the other day.

1:10:29.260,1:10:30.520
I cut out the clipping.

1:10:30.520,1:10:33.480
We always have about three times[br]as much stuff to print in GWS

1:10:33.480,1:10:36.200
as we ever have room to print,[br]which is frustrating.

1:10:37.220,1:10:38.555
This was about[br]a young man –

1:10:38.555,1:10:46.167
he's now 18 –[br]and he was autistic,

1:10:46.167,1:10:48.200
which is,[br]to this day,

1:10:48.200,1:10:51.710
by the supposed official experts,[br]called "incurable".

1:10:52.280,1:10:54.800
"Autistic" and "retarded,"[br]they're not the same thing.

1:10:54.800,1:10:58.475
I mean, he just had a whole bunch[br]of these labels stuck on him.

1:10:58.475,1:11:01.330
It's hopeless –[br]"vegetable," "institutionalized."

1:11:01.330,1:11:03.500
If you can get him[br]in and out of the bathroom,

1:11:03.500,1:11:05.400
that's probably[br]as much as you can do.

1:11:08.000,1:11:11.670
And somebody got [br]interested in this boy

1:11:11.670,1:11:13.040
when he was[br]seven or eight,

1:11:13.040,1:11:18.240
noticed that he seemed pretty[br]energetic and lively, and liked moving,

1:11:18.240,1:11:24.320
and they got him started running –[br]and running distances.

1:11:25.660,1:11:27.907
Took him on long runs[br]or this, that, the other

1:11:27.907,1:11:29.920
– and they got him[br]into this running world.

1:11:29.920,1:11:31.880
The boy's now 18,[br]I think.

1:11:31.880,1:11:34.210
I don't remember whether[br]this was because he was

1:11:34.210,1:11:36.680
getting ready to run in[br]the Boston Marathon or not.

1:11:36.680,1:11:39.760
But at any rate, he's become[br]an extremely good runner.

1:11:39.760,1:11:44.080
Incidentally, he has not[br]caught up with his age,

1:11:44.080,1:11:47.680
but he talks intelligently[br]and intelligibly,

1:11:47.680,1:11:48.830
reads –[br]I don't know –

1:11:48.830,1:11:50.570
something on[br]a 6th, 7th grade level.

1:11:50.570,1:11:52.480
But all this is going up.

1:11:52.480,1:11:55.960
He's become[br]a fully-functioning human being –

1:11:55.960,1:11:57.800
because he was allowed and helped

1:11:57.800,1:12:00.780
to do the things[br]that he liked best.

1:12:02.490,1:12:05.240
People grow through their strengths,[br]not their weaknesses.

1:12:05.240,1:12:06.700
One of the many simple truths,

1:12:06.700,1:12:11.840
which the giant educational,[br]psychological, medical, etc. institutions

1:12:11.840,1:12:13.920
don't seem to be able[br]to learn is just that:

1:12:13.920,1:12:17.560
that people learn by and[br]grow through their strengths,

1:12:17.560,1:12:20.840
not by having people pound[br]away at their weaknesses.

1:12:20.840,1:12:22.770
Somebody had[br]the wit and the imagination

1:12:22.770,1:12:25.160
to see that this boy[br]had a talent,

1:12:25.160,1:12:27.820
a gift, a love,[br]something he wanted to do.

1:12:29.990,1:12:32.680
And then all this other stuff[br]kind of went along with it.

1:12:32.680,1:12:35.140
Well, we know that,

1:12:35.140,1:12:37.696
and they don't know it[br]out there. [Chuckles]

1:12:37.696,1:12:41.059
And it's going to be[br]a long time before they do –

1:12:42.819,1:12:42.840
which is interesting.

1:12:42.840,1:12:44.400
Okay, now let's see.

1:12:44.400,1:12:45.880
Yes.

1:12:45.880,1:12:50.760
Woman: I have a lot of resentment[br]against my public school education

1:12:50.760,1:12:54.000
and further education here[br]at the University of Michigan,

1:12:54.000,1:12:55.680
although I learned,[br]as you said,

1:12:55.680,1:12:58.770
to play the games very well[br]and got good grades,

1:12:58.770,1:13:01.960
but felt that I didn't[br]develop a lot of interest,

1:13:01.960,1:13:04.240
because I was too busy[br]playing the games.

1:13:04.240,1:13:08.160
But I wondered how[br]you would answer the question,

1:13:08.160,1:13:09.560
if I hear you correctly,

1:13:09.560,1:13:13.140
that you allow a child to choose[br]what he wants to learn.

1:13:14.240,1:13:17.000
I can't imagine how[br]a person would ever choose

1:13:17.000,1:13:20.200
to learn things[br]like trigonometry,

1:13:20.200,1:13:24.010
or things that they say maybe[br]later that you're going to need.

1:13:24.010,1:13:25.800
John: Well, you will[br]need trigonometry

1:13:25.800,1:13:28.750
if you're a surveyor –[br]in no other place and way.

1:13:28.750,1:13:29.980
I'm glad you picked that.

1:13:29.980,1:13:31.850
Woman: Well,[br]I didn't take trigonometry,

1:13:31.850,1:13:33.693
but the algebra[br]I used, for example.

1:13:33.693,1:13:34.693
John: Now, now[br][inaudible] –

1:13:34.693,1:13:37.450
Woman: I didn't enjoy learning it,[br]but I've used it a lot.

1:13:37.450,1:13:39.235
John: Okay, well,[br]if you had not learned it,

1:13:39.235,1:13:41.020
and if you got to[br]a place in life

1:13:41.020,1:13:43.400
where you needed it to do[br]something you wanted to do,

1:13:43.400,1:13:45.130
then you would[br]learn it very quickly.

1:13:45.130,1:13:47.080
It's no mystery.[br]It's not hidden.

1:13:47.080,1:13:48.753
The time to learn stuff is –

1:13:48.753,1:13:50.907
Woman: So you learn things[br]when you need them,

1:13:50.907,1:13:53.599
not when the school system says,[br]"This is geometry year."

1:13:53.599,1:13:55.946
John: Right, right.[br]You learn things when you –

1:13:56.560,1:13:58.320
As a species,[br]as a living creature,

1:13:58.320,1:14:01.080
we human beings[br]are incredibly good

1:14:01.080,1:14:02.840
at learning stuff[br]when we need to –

1:14:02.840,1:14:06.960
if we have not been convinced that[br]we're so stupid that we can't do it –

1:14:06.960,1:14:10.040
which, unfortunately,[br]in a great many places, does happen.

1:14:10.190,1:14:12.180
Man: I don't know who[br]you're on right now,

1:14:12.180,1:14:15.430
but I just want to point out that[br]I'm enjoying learning algebra.

1:14:15.430,1:14:17.246
I'm alternatively educated.[br][Laughter]

1:14:18.676,1:14:19.866
Woman: [Inaudible]

1:14:19.866,1:14:21.370
John: Good.[br]And thank you.

1:14:21.370,1:14:23.380
Woman: What kind of school[br]are you in now?

1:14:23.380,1:14:24.760
Man: Well, actually,[br]it's a public school,

1:14:24.760,1:14:28.440
but it's an attempt at being[br]an alternative school.

1:14:28.440,1:14:32.960
And it's not as close as[br]the school I went to before it,

1:14:32.960,1:14:37.600
but it's closer than[br]the standard public schools,

1:14:37.600,1:14:40.400
and it has the atmosphere[br]of an alternative school.

1:14:40.400,1:14:47.120
But many of[br]our classes are chosen,

1:14:47.120,1:14:48.660
I mean, rather than –

1:14:49.980,1:14:53.250
Beyond the state requirements that[br]the public schools have to follow,

1:14:53.250,1:14:54.830
most of our classes[br]are chosen.

1:14:54.830,1:14:58.420
Woman: Do you have[br]friends in regular public school?

1:14:58.810,1:15:01.440
What I wonder is if you feel,[br]in comparison,

1:15:01.440,1:15:03.740
that you're getting[br]a far better education.

1:15:03.740,1:15:05.940
Man: Well, the –[br]Woman: Obviously, you do.

1:15:05.940,1:15:08.280
Man: I was in the public schools[br]until 7th grade.

1:15:08.280,1:15:10.360
And 7th grade,[br]I jumped around,

1:15:10.360,1:15:12.790
and it was[br]because of just

1:15:12.790,1:15:15.320
all sorts of problems[br]I was having in public schools.

1:15:18.280,1:15:21.540
Yeah, I think my education[br]since I've gone into alternative schools

1:15:21.540,1:15:23.510
has been infinitely better.

1:15:25.300,1:15:27.280
John: Good.[br]Well, I'm glad to hear that.

1:15:27.280,1:15:30.920
But I do want to make clear,[br]as far as I'm concerned,

1:15:30.920,1:15:34.240
I'm not trying to make –[br]never have tried to make

1:15:34.240,1:15:38.630
a distinction between public and[br]conventional private schools.

1:15:39.040,1:15:41.920
If you remember[br]"How Children Fail,"

1:15:41.920,1:15:46.960
you'll remember that[br]somewhere along in the book I wrote,

1:15:46.960,1:15:49.850
"School is a place where[br]children learn to be stupid."

1:15:49.850,1:15:50.590
[Laughter]

1:15:50.590,1:15:53.620
Now, let me tell you about[br]the school about which I was writing.

1:15:53.620,1:15:54.729
I was not writing about

1:15:54.729,1:15:59.480
some poor old PS 111[br]in the middle of the downtown,

1:15:59.480,1:16:03.680
I was talking about[br]an extremely exclusive,

1:16:03.680,1:16:07.400
high-powered, selective,[br]private elementary school,

1:16:07.400,1:16:09.680
one of the two or three[br]outstanding such schools

1:16:09.680,1:16:12.480
in the whole[br]Boston-Cambridge area –

1:16:12.480,1:16:15.070
the top of the top[br]of the top of the top!

1:16:16.640,1:16:19.000
They had an admissions policy

1:16:19.000,1:16:21.440
under which a kid could[br]not get into the school

1:16:21.440,1:16:24.170
if she or he did not[br]have an IQ of 120.

1:16:24.520,1:16:25.950
That was the cut-off!

1:16:27.120,1:16:31.200
It was at that school[br]that I wrote,

1:16:31.200,1:16:33.760
"School is a place where[br]children learn to be stupid."

1:16:33.760,1:16:36.590
So I'm not drawing a line –[br][chuckles] never have drawn it.

1:16:36.590,1:16:38.090
I'm not drawing it here saying,

1:16:38.090,1:16:41.490
"Ooh, look at all these terrible,[br]rotten public schools on one side.

1:16:41.490,1:16:42.640
Ooh, look at these –"

1:16:42.640,1:16:45.520
What I was saying then[br]is that what I came to realize

1:16:45.520,1:16:47.240
in that school[br]with these kids

1:16:47.240,1:16:51.800
is that you cannot coerce learning[br]or attempt to coerce it

1:16:51.800,1:16:54.160
without making people stupid –

1:16:54.160,1:16:57.960
without making them afraid,[br]shifty, evasive, clever tricksters.

1:16:57.960,1:17:01.960
Yeah, the cleverest tricksters,[br]they'll sail on to Harvard, MIT, Yale –

1:17:01.960,1:17:03.800
I did that game.

1:17:03.800,1:17:07.040
Dope out the teacher,[br]guess the exam.

1:17:07.040,1:17:09.680
Everybody knows[br]how it goes.

1:17:09.680,1:17:12.440
And everybody who does it[br]knows that 90% of that stuff

1:17:12.440,1:17:17.120
you throw out just like dirty dishwater[br]as soon as the exam is passed.

1:17:17.120,1:17:19.360
How many people on[br]any university faculty

1:17:19.360,1:17:20.960
could pass an exam –

1:17:20.960,1:17:24.200
other than, perhaps basic[br]English reading and writing –

1:17:24.200,1:17:26.280
outside of their own specialty?

1:17:28.440,1:17:33.720
I mean, just very, very few –[br]and they know it.

1:17:33.720,1:17:36.800
I mean, this idea that there's[br]some great body of knowledge

1:17:36.800,1:17:38.960
which they all share –[br]it's just nonsense!

1:17:38.960,1:17:40.440
Never was true –[br]not true now.

1:17:40.440,1:17:42.120
It's a fraud.

1:17:42.710,1:17:44.540
I mean, I think[br]a lot of people say it sincerely.

1:17:44.540,1:17:46.640
I don't think they're lying[br]when they say it.

1:17:46.640,1:17:49.440
But I mean, it's a fraud[br]because it's just not so!

1:17:49.440,1:17:51.280
Nobody remembers that stuff.

1:17:53.880,1:17:54.840
Harvard University –

1:17:55.440,1:17:59.600
if you're taking some big course,[br]they announce an exam.

1:18:00.440,1:18:04.430
Some professor's going to[br]have an exam in his or her course.

1:18:04.430,1:18:05.550
Professor announces it:

1:18:05.550,1:18:07.940
"We will have such an exam[br]on such and such a day,

1:18:07.940,1:18:10.280
and it will cover such and[br]such and such a topic."

1:18:10.280,1:18:14.600
And then you spend a certain amount[br]of time discussing this in review.

1:18:14.600,1:18:17.160
Nobody springs surprise exams[br]on their students

1:18:17.160,1:18:19.600
because they know[br]perfectly well what would happen.

1:18:20.800,1:18:22.405
No, it's a very –

1:18:23.475,1:18:24.962
All right.[br][Laughter]

1:18:24.962,1:18:27.081
I'll get out of that.[br]I'll go on all night.

1:18:27.081,1:18:29.200
[Laughter]

1:18:29.200,1:18:31.260
Let's see, now,[br]where are we in our numbers?

1:18:31.260,1:18:32.180
John: Yes.

1:18:32.180,1:18:33.579
Dorothy: I'm 4.[br]John: Good.

1:18:36.399,1:18:37.340
Dorothy: I help coordinate

1:18:37.340,1:18:40.340
a homeschooling[br]support group in Chicago,

1:18:40.340,1:18:45.880
and I'm noticing[br]more and more

1:18:45.880,1:18:50.440
the split that you have alluded to[br]in homeschooling as well

1:18:50.440,1:18:54.480
between those who wish to[br]coerce learning and those who don't.

1:18:54.480,1:18:59.010
And those who do[br]are very much interested –

1:18:59.010,1:19:00.720
as it happens in Illinois –

1:19:00.720,1:19:04.480
in keeping those of us[br]who don't want to coerce

1:19:04.480,1:19:08.680
in a semblance of unity with them[br]vis-à-vis the state.

1:19:09.960,1:19:11.960
And it's becoming[br]more and more difficult,

1:19:11.960,1:19:13.920
I think, for that to happen.

1:19:13.920,1:19:17.520
And I wonder if you would[br]comment on that, and also on –

1:19:17.520,1:19:20.720
There is a definite[br]one-way flow of energy happening

1:19:20.720,1:19:26.090
because those of us[br]who do not wish to coerce

1:19:26.090,1:19:32.920
give support and assistance[br]very often to those who do,

1:19:32.920,1:19:35.350
because they believe they[br]have the right to choose.

1:19:35.750,1:19:38.080
And those who[br]wish to coerce

1:19:38.080,1:19:41.280
really don't think that the rest of us[br]do have the right because,

1:19:41.280,1:19:43.480
"We're not doing it[br]the right way, you see."

1:19:44.340,1:19:46.880
So, would you[br]comment on that?

1:19:46.880,1:19:50.990
This is not a problem I want solved[br]because I don't see it being [inaudible]

1:19:50.990,1:19:52.528
John: That's good,[br]because it's –

1:19:52.528,1:19:54.310
Dorothy: – we're[br]not going to do that.

1:19:54.310,1:19:57.050
But I would like a comment[br]from you, if you will, on that,

1:19:57.050,1:20:01.160
especially vis-à-vis legislation,[br]and that sort of thing,

1:20:01.160,1:20:07.000
when our interests tend to be[br]moving further and further apart.

1:20:07.000,1:20:11.464
And what would you think we should do[br]in terms of strategies about this?

1:20:12.354,1:20:13.840
John: Thank you, Dorothy.

1:20:15.210,1:20:18.000
I first think of something[br]a friend of mine used to say:

1:20:18.520,1:20:20.530
"This isn't a problem,[br]it's a predicament."

1:20:21.144,1:20:22.110
Dorothy: Right.[br][Laughter]

1:20:25.710,1:20:28.600
John: The word "problem"[br]kind of cooks up in our mind

1:20:28.600,1:20:31.000
a picture of something[br]which we could make go away

1:20:31.000,1:20:33.440
if we could just figure out[br]the right thing to do.

1:20:33.440,1:20:35.808
Things like death and taxes[br]are predicaments,

1:20:35.808,1:20:37.460
and they're just[br]part of reality.

1:20:38.040,1:20:41.550
Yeah, this is a part of reality,[br]and we are living with it,

1:20:41.550,1:20:45.110
and we're going to be living with it[br]as far in the future as I can see.

1:20:47.400,1:20:50.640
It doesn't trouble me that –

1:20:50.640,1:20:54.400
I'm going to[br]respond in several sections.

1:20:54.400,1:20:55.650
First place,[br]I don't think

1:20:55.650,1:20:58.820
it's a cause for worry[br]or concern or distress

1:20:58.820,1:21:01.240
that we may be[br]helping people

1:21:01.240,1:21:05.960
to get rights which they[br]would not help us to get.

1:21:05.960,1:21:07.708
Dorothy: I'm not worried[br]about that.

1:21:09.628,1:21:11.820
John: Now, there's[br]no reason in the world

1:21:11.820,1:21:13.640
not to work[br]together with people

1:21:13.640,1:21:16.720
with whom we disagree[br]about many things

1:21:16.720,1:21:19.120
on those things[br]about which we agree.

1:21:19.120,1:21:23.160
Because when we improve[br]the legislative situation,

1:21:23.160,1:21:25.160
then we've made things[br]easier for all of us.

1:21:33.350,1:21:36.155
Another thing[br]I would have to say is –

1:21:37.555,1:21:39.360
Well, first of all,

1:21:39.360,1:21:44.200
a lot of the people who begin[br]as coercive homeschoolers change.

1:21:44.200,1:21:46.434
Dorothy: I've seen[br]a lot of that [inaudible].

1:21:46.434,1:21:51.640
John: Their children teach them [laughter][br]about how learning really works.

1:21:51.640,1:21:54.240
And if – and this is[br]very, very often true –

1:21:54.240,1:21:58.880
if they care enough about their children[br]to pay attention to their feelings

1:21:58.880,1:22:04.640
and pick up these messages,[br]they become educated,

1:22:04.640,1:22:08.840
and they become[br]less and less coercive –

1:22:08.840,1:22:10.630
minimally coercive.

1:22:11.320,1:22:13.840
My experience is that the people[br]who do not make that change

1:22:13.840,1:22:16.390
don't stay in[br]homeschooling very long.

1:22:17.280,1:22:19.240
That is, people who –

1:22:19.240,1:22:21.360
whether for reasons[br]religious or other,

1:22:21.360,1:22:24.680
believe in high-pressure coercion,

1:22:24.680,1:22:27.880
soon find ways to get together with[br]other people who feel the same way

1:22:27.880,1:22:30.000
and they start[br]some kind of coercive school.

1:22:30.000,1:22:31.720
I don't think[br]you're very likely

1:22:31.720,1:22:35.280
to find people doing[br]coercive homeschooling

1:22:35.280,1:22:37.720
for four or five[br]years in a row.

1:22:37.720,1:22:39.480
I mean, their children[br]would hit the road,

1:22:39.480,1:22:43.566
if nothing else happened.[br][Laughter]

1:22:46.926,1:22:49.990
I'm untroubled[br]by having people start

1:22:49.990,1:22:53.230
in a position which is[br]very far from my own,

1:22:53.230,1:22:56.330
partly because I believe people[br]should have the right to do this

1:22:56.330,1:22:59.130
however they want to do it,[br]not just if they agree with me,

1:22:59.130,1:23:01.840
and partly because I have[br]a lot of confidence, as I say,

1:23:01.840,1:23:03.770
that they will learn[br]from their children,

1:23:03.770,1:23:05.800
that they will move[br]away from coercion.

1:23:05.800,1:23:09.040
As I have said[br]at teachers' colleges,

1:23:09.040,1:23:11.760
one reason homeschooling[br]works well in practice

1:23:11.760,1:23:15.460
is that the home is an absolutely[br]splendid teacher-training institution.

1:23:15.460,1:23:17.420
[Laughter]

1:23:17.420,1:23:18.860
The numbers[br]are small enough

1:23:18.860,1:23:23.600
so you can really hear the messages[br]that your children are sending.

1:23:24.470,1:23:27.000
And you're in a position where,[br]if you choose to,

1:23:27.000,1:23:28.570
you can learn from them.

1:23:28.880,1:23:32.240
Now, when I first discovered,[br]as a fifth-grade classroom teacher,

1:23:32.240,1:23:34.440
that a lot of children[br]were so scared

1:23:34.440,1:23:36.600
of the weekly[br]arithmetic test

1:23:36.600,1:23:39.120
that they couldn't[br]think about arithmetic,

1:23:39.120,1:23:40.480
I stopped giving the tests.

1:23:40.480,1:23:41.960
And it wasn't more than[br]about two weeks

1:23:41.960,1:23:43.280
before the school administration

1:23:43.280,1:23:45.120
told me that I had to[br]start giving them again,

1:23:45.120,1:23:47.610
and they fired me[br]at the end of the year.

1:23:48.560,1:23:50.600
So I was not[br]in a position to do

1:23:50.600,1:23:53.600
what my conscience and[br]intelligence and instincts

1:23:53.600,1:23:55.120
told me needed[br]to be done.

1:23:55.120,1:23:56.960
Parents aren't[br]in that position.

1:23:56.960,1:23:58.610
"You can start[br]with a little desk,

1:23:58.610,1:24:01.290
an American flag,[br]a schedule on the blackboard –

1:24:01.290,1:24:03.460
[Laughter]

1:24:03.460,1:24:06.170
– but the day you find out[br]it isn't working, you can say,

1:24:06.170,1:24:08.050
"We're going to do[br]something different."

1:24:08.050,1:24:09.822
You have that[br]freedom to move –

1:24:09.822,1:24:10.541
[Recording ends prematurely]