0:00:00.672,0:00:02.920
Introducer: ... John Holt's work.

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I'm sure that you have[br]read "How Children Learn,"

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"How Children Fail,"[br]"Teach Your Own."

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You may have had[br]an opportunity to see,

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lots of times on tour, him talking[br]on television or on the radio,

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John Holt, who's probably the best-known,[br]most vocal commentator on unschooling,

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and particularly home-based education,[br]in the country right now.

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Also, I understand he's[br]a magnificent cello player.

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So maybe some germane questions about[br]that would be refreshing and useful, as well.

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Here's John Holt.

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[Applause]

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John Holt: Well,[br]thanks very much.

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First of all, we have to delete[br]that "magnificent" part. [Laughter]

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Someday maybe,[br]but not yet.

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``How many people still remember[br]those instructions about how to get to this – ?

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[Laughter]

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We'll have a run through again[br]after the meeting, I think.

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[Laughter]

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We were talking about parking,[br]and something popped into my head.

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I was tempted to interrupt and say it,[br]but I didn't, but I'll say it now.

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What popped in was,[br]"Parking is such sweet sorrow."

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[Laughter]

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Well, thank you for coming.[br]Thank you for inviting me.

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It's nice to be here.

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I said I was surprised to see,[br]among a number of good friends of mine,

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a friend that I really didn't[br]expect to see here.

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And I think he probably wins the long-distance[br]attendance record for this meeting.

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Now, I'm John Holt from Boston,

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but I'd like you to see[br]John Boston from Escondido,

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which happens to be[br]near San Diego.

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I couldn't believe he was[br]here for this meeting.

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Just wave your hand or say hi.[br][Laughter]

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John Boston: Hi.[br][Applause]

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John Holt: I want to talk about[br]a number of things tonight.

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And first of all though,[br]I'm probably saying things

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that you've heard me[br]say before or read.

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``This young man has the right idea[br]about how to dress for this meeting.

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[Laughter]

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Oh, but I guess, even before I get into what[br]you might call the body of this formal address,

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I want to ask just a few questions[br]to locate the audience.

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And perhaps one way to start[br]would be by saying,

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how many of you – I'm asking here[br]for a "show of hands" response.

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I wonder if we could[br]remove that rattle.

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John Holt: Thank you.

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Experience has taught me[br]the good things to bring with little kids,

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and I love to bring bags of it –[br]get it all out. [Laughter]

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This young man is

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divesting himself of his coveralls.

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I think, very smart.

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Now, how many of you[br]are working with,

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in one capacity or another,[br]alternative schools?

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All right.

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Thank you very much.

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And another question.

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How many of you are now[br]parents of school-aged kids?

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Good.

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All right.

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How many of those of you

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who are parents of school-aged kids[br]are sending them to alternative schools?

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All right.

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How many of you[br]are teaching them at home?

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Big crowd.

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This next one will be[br]for those of you

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who are parents of children[br]who are not yet of school age

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or expect soon to be[br]parents of very young children.

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How many of you are[br]seriously considering

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the idea of, I'd say,[br]teaching them at home?

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All right.

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And how many of you[br]are seriously considering

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sending them to[br]an alternative school

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if there was one near you[br]that was within reach?

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Okay, good.

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How many of you[br]are teaching or otherwise

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working with public schools[br]or colleges or universities,

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let's say, in one[br]capacity or another?

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Okay, thank you very much.

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The grandparent question.

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How many of you[br]are grandparents of homeschooled or –

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Good! –[br]alternative school children?

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Okay.

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Grandparents are a very important[br]ingredient in this situation.

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There are homeschoolers who are[br]having just about as much trouble with –

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Small child: Hi.[br]John Holt: Hi. How are you?

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Child: Hi. Hi.[br]John Holt: Hi.

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A famous Jimmy Durante storyline:

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"Everybody's trying to[br]get into the act!" [Laughter]

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There are folks who are having[br]about as much trouble with grandparents

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as they are with superintendents.[br][Laughter]

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So, it's extremely important to have[br]friendly and supportive grandparents

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in this alternative-education movement.

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Well, let me sum up in a very few words

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what I have been[br]saying and writing

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about children and learning now[br]for going on 25 years or more.

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As a result of my experiences,

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first of all as a classroom teacher[br]working in just about every grade,

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sometimes, say,[br]K through G.

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I did a little college and[br]graduate school teaching,

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not very much.

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K through 12 might be[br]a little more accurate.

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But as a result of, on the one hand,

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working with children in[br]more or less conventional classrooms,

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and on the other hand,[br]spending a lot of time

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with babies, infants,[br]little children –

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first my sisters',

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then the children of other people,[br]little children in nursery schools,

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and since then, many children[br]of homeschooling parents –

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I came to understand something –[br]certainly to believe something

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about young human beings[br]of which I am more certain

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than I am, I think,[br]about anything in the world –

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and that is[br]that children are,

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by nature and from birth,[br]or perhaps before birth –

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though I have no testimony[br]to offer about that –

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natural learning creatures.

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There is nothing[br]that they want more.

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They have a desire –[br]more than a desire, a passion –

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to find out[br]as much as they can,

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to make as much sense as they can[br]of the world around them,

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or as much of that world[br]as they experience,

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to become competent[br]and skillful in it,

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to do things in it,[br]to play a useful part in it.

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This is a truly biological[br]instinct or drive.

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It is as strong as or stronger –

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at least for children who[br]are not in famine condition –

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it is stronger than[br]the desire to eat.

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Those of you[br]who are mothers

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or attentive and observant fathers[br]of very young children

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will have seen this[br]happen many times,

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that a tiny infant,[br]babe in arms,

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hungry with his[br]little stomach hurting –

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which is what happens[br]when they are hungry –

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and eating, feeding, nursing,[br]will stop eating if something interesting happens.

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If somebody comes into the room,[br]if there's a noise,

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if there's some kind of[br]a change in the situation,

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this hungry little teeny creature

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will stop eating and look around[br]to see what's going on.

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There is probably not a mother in the[br]world who hasn't seen this happen.

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And how we can persist in talking about[br]children not being interested in learning

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or needing to be taught to learn[br]or whatever it is,

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is just absolutely beyond me.

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Anyway.

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They are extremely good at this –

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this learning, this[br]making sense of the world.

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They're much better at it than we are,[br]or than all but some microscopic fraction.

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If by some accident of[br]who knows what – science fiction –

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were all of us[br]to be dropped into,

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say, the interior of Japan[br]or some exotic part of the world

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where nobody spoke[br]a word of English,

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where everybody was speaking some[br]language we had never heard of,

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it's no mystery to us[br]which of us here in the room

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would be talking[br]that language first –

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the little guys would.

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All of them[br]would be talking it.

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Most of them[br]talking it fairly soon.

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Most of us –[br]some of us – big ones –

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would be struggling along[br]in a kind of a halting way.

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And a lot of us would[br]never learn any of it.

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Many of us would[br]never know it.

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Just the problems of learning something[br]totally new without any assistance with it.

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No, they get it first.

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But we all know that[br]when we think about it.

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They're extremely[br]good at it.

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Well, another way of saying[br]what I've come to believe

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is that learning is not[br]the product of teaching.

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Very difficult for me as a paid teacher over[br]a number of years to get that into my thick head.

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I was very good at that whatever you call[br]that thing that goes on in classrooms.

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I was probably a good example[br]of what's called a gifted teacher –

0:11:07.600,0:11:14.040
motivating, clever at devices,[br]good at explaining,

0:11:14.040,0:11:15.400
all that stuff you're[br]supposed to do.

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It took me a long time to figure out[br]that this was not doing anybody any good,

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and most people harm.

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Very hard for us to give up[br]the picture of learning

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that it's like pouring something out of[br]a full container into an empty one.

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It's this assumption which lies at[br]the root of absolutely everything

0:11:38.720,0:11:42.720
that's done in schools and[br]under the name of education.

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And it's a hundred percent wrong.

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I mean, not even 98% wrong –[br]a hundred percent wrong.

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That is not what happens.

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Learning is the product of the curiosity,[br]the interest, the enthusiasm, the activity,

0:11:58.560,0:12:09.840
the ingenuity, the imagination,[br]the thinking power of the learner.

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Now, there are things that outsiders,[br]whether grown-up or whatever,

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can do to assist this process, and[br]I'll talk about them in just a few minutes.

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But the work is[br]done by the learner.

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These little people are not empty receptacles[br]into which knowledge is poured.

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They are not sponges[br]soaking up knowledge.

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They are not little lamps to be lighted,[br]as somebody else likes to say.

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They are not[br]any of these metaphors.

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They are, in the most strict and[br]literal sense of the word, scientists.

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The things that they do to create knowledge out[br]of experience, which is what learning is,

0:12:59.280,0:13:04.840
are exactly the same as the things[br]that the people we think of as scientists

0:13:04.840,0:13:07.640
do in their laboratories.

0:13:07.640,0:13:10.040
When they do them, perhaps,[br]there are some differences.

0:13:10.040,0:13:12.300
They are probably[br]a good deal less self-conscious.

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A scientist will probably have a pretty[br]clear idea of what she or he is looking for,

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whereas little kids[br]are not doing it in that way.

0:13:20.960,0:13:23.480
Nevertheless, they[br]do the same things.

0:13:23.480,0:13:28.400
The first is they observe,[br]they take in data.

0:13:28.400,0:13:32.840
And the second is that[br]they wonder about it.

0:13:32.840,0:13:39.716
And the third is that they ask[br]themselves questions about it.

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The second and third[br]are pretty close.

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And then, they begin to make up theories,[br]invent theories, maybe that the wind blows

0:13:47.880,0:13:56.840
because the trees are moving their branches,[br]which, on the face of it, is not a bad theory.

0:13:56.840,0:14:01.120
And then, they test these theories[br]with observation, maybe with questions,

0:14:01.120,0:14:07.940
maybe with experiments, some of which we[br]may welcome and others of which we may not.

0:14:07.940,0:14:13.880
In this connection, I think of the most[br]recent visit to my house of Anna van Doren,

0:14:13.880,0:14:16.800
of whom you may have read in[br]"Growing Without Schooling."

0:14:16.800,0:14:20.920
Anna's going to be four in June.

0:14:20.920,0:14:23.720
We were in the apartment.

0:14:23.720,0:14:25.520
Her mother and I were doing various kinds of work.

0:14:25.520,0:14:28.600
Her little guy seemed not to be[br]getting in any physical trouble.

0:14:28.600,0:14:33.840
And when the time came to leave, I have a door[br]with one of those push-button locks on it.

0:14:33.840,0:14:41.200
And as I was leaving, I reached in to push[br]the lock, and my thumb fell into a hole.

0:14:41.200,0:14:43.080
Well, this feels kind of funny.

0:14:43.080,0:14:49.840
And I looked, and the push lock wasn't[br]there, and it was sitting on the floor.

0:14:49.840,0:14:52.920
I said, "Anna, you've taken[br]the lock out of my doorknob!"

0:14:52.920,0:14:59.040
It took me about four or five minutes[br]to figure out how to get it back in.

0:15:00.600,0:15:05.680
Children tend to like to do experiments[br]right up into the point where no further

0:15:05.680,0:15:09.680
experimenting is possible, I guess you[br]could say, up to the disaster limit.

0:15:09.680,0:15:16.840
And it's very good on learning, but it's[br]sometimes tough on the lab. [Laughter]

0:15:16.840,0:15:20.480
So these experiments are not always[br]welcome, but nevertheless, they do them.

0:15:20.480,0:15:27.360
And then, as a result of what they find out, they[br]give up their theories, modify them, change them.

0:15:27.360,0:15:30.960
Let's see.

0:15:30.960,0:15:35.720
Has the GWS gone out which talks about[br]my little friend Helen saying, "gocks?"

0:15:35.720,0:15:39.960
Or is that 44?

0:15:39.960,0:15:40.006
Maybe you haven't received it yet.[br]Woman: Yeah.

0:15:40.006,0:15:40.320
Woman: It just arrived.[br]John Holt: All right.

0:15:40.320,0:15:43.480
So here's Helen Vandoren.

0:15:43.480,0:15:46.080
Actually, her full name is[br]Helen Maria-Holt Vandoren.

0:15:46.080,0:15:50.600
I had two schools and one baby named after me.

0:15:50.600,0:15:58.955
One of the schools is defunct,[br]but the baby is fine. [Chuckles]

0:15:58.955,0:16:00.920
[Laughter][br]At any rate.

0:16:00.920,0:16:06.520
Helen has been, for some time,[br]using the word "gocks" to say socks.

0:16:06.520,0:16:08.600
And this is a mystery to us because she knows how

0:16:08.600,0:16:12.440
to say the sound "sss," and says[br]it in lots of other connections.

0:16:12.440,0:16:15.240
Indeed, it was one of the first sounds she said,

0:16:15.240,0:16:20.520
and it had multiple meanings,[br]including that she wanted to nurse.

0:16:20.520,0:16:25.860
We simply could not imagine where[br]she got the idea of saying gocks.

0:16:25.860,0:16:27.960
She never heard anybody say it, obviously.

0:16:27.960,0:16:28.600
No imitation.

0:16:28.600,0:16:33.360
Her sister had never said it.

0:16:33.360,0:16:38.720
If you think of the way sounds are produced in the[br]mouth and throat, S and G are not at all alike.

0:16:38.720,0:16:42.980
It's not a small difference.

0:16:42.980,0:16:48.800
At any rate, she must have had some[br]kind of theory about why she wanted

0:16:48.800,0:16:52.800
to do it this way and not some[br]other way, and it was a theory.

0:16:52.800,0:16:56.920
Just the other day, oh, I think maybe not[br]more than about three or four days ago,

0:16:56.920,0:17:03.400
we were all in the office, and it was time for the[br]Vandoren family to go home, which means rounding

0:17:03.400,0:17:07.840
up the kids' clothes, shoes, socks, putting[br]them on them – an operation you know well.

0:17:09.920,0:17:13.720
And we had Helen sitting on the floor[br]getting ready to put her socks on.

0:17:13.720,0:17:21.470
And she looked at them[br]thoughtfully, and said, "Zzzzocks.

0:17:21.470,0:17:21.480
Zzzzocks."

0:17:21.480,0:17:23.480
I said to Mary, "Have you ever[br]heard her say that before?"

0:17:23.480,0:17:27.920
Mary said, "No, first time."

0:17:27.920,0:17:31.720
Well, I saw Mary just a couple of days[br]ago and said, "How is the 'zocks' going?"

0:17:31.720,0:17:32.840
Has she said "gocks" since?

0:17:32.840,0:17:33.680
"No," she said.

0:17:33.680,0:17:38.880
In fact, she's very quickly converted the[br]"zocks" to "socks," and that's what it is now.

0:17:38.880,0:17:42.520
Now, why that difference, which didn't[br]make any difference to her before,

0:17:42.520,0:17:44.800
all of a sudden did make a[br]difference, I don't know,

0:17:44.800,0:17:50.200
you don't know, she doesn't know, we'll[br]never know – except everybody does it.

0:17:50.200,0:17:55.320
All of a sudden, whatever theory of language[br]it was that caused her to say "gocks," suddenly

0:17:55.320,0:18:00.840
seemed unsatisfactory, didn't work,[br]didn't fit – so now she says "socks."

0:18:00.840,0:18:01.840
Well, okay.

0:18:01.840,0:18:07.480
A very small example which we[br]could multiply by the billions,

0:18:07.480,0:18:09.160
and it's what these little people do.

0:18:09.160,0:18:13.960
They are observers, makers,[br]testers, changers of theories.

0:18:13.960,0:18:21.240
They are, in the strictest[br]sense of the word, scientists.

0:18:21.240,0:18:28.960
And, at least as far as learning goes, all they[br]ask is to be allowed to continue to do this.

0:18:28.960,0:18:33.400
Now, what we can do – I come back[br]to the point about what can adults

0:18:33.400,0:18:40.000
do to help? – because we are, in many[br]ways, an essential part of this process.

0:18:40.000,0:18:42.880
I don't claim children would[br]ever learn to figure out how

0:18:42.880,0:18:45.240
to talk if they were surrounded by deaf-mutes.

0:18:45.240,0:18:50.440
It wouldn't happen.

0:18:51.120,0:18:59.120
What we can do, what we do in our normal daily[br]lives before we start thinking about education

0:18:59.120,0:19:09.040
or coerced learning is we provide children with[br]– as much as we can – access to the world around

0:19:09.040,0:19:17.240
them – by which I mean not just places, places[br]that we go, places at the house, the kitchen,

0:19:17.240,0:19:22.120
the yard, the neighborhood, the stores, wherever[br]we go, but also the world of people, the world

0:19:22.120,0:19:32.720
of experience, actions, talk, materials, books,[br]records, tools, people doing things, human life.

0:19:32.720,0:19:36.200
Now, what we can do for these little[br]guys is to provide them with as much

0:19:36.200,0:19:40.440
as we reasonably can – I say reasonably –[br]I'm not saying you have to make your whole

0:19:40.440,0:19:48.360
life into a field trip – as we reasonably can[br]with access to our own lives as we lead them.

0:19:48.360,0:19:50.080
If you live in the woods, that means the woods.

0:19:50.080,0:19:52.800
If you live in downtown city, that means downtown.

0:19:52.800,0:19:59.960
I mean, wherever we live, whatever we do, as far[br]as we can, we open up that world to children –

0:19:59.960,0:20:03.880
let them see it, let them be part of[br]it – and we answer their questions

0:20:03.880,0:20:05.960
when they have them – and they have lots of them.

0:20:05.960,0:20:11.507
Some of you will have discovered that[br]when your children are getting on --

0:20:11.507,0:20:12.229
Small child: Hi.

0:20:12.229,0:20:13.353
John Holt: Oh, hi again.

0:20:13.353,0:20:20.661
Child: Hi, hi.

0:20:20.661,0:20:21.920
John: Mm-hmm.[br]John: Well, when they're getting on to a year

0:20:21.920,0:20:25.520
and a half, when they're beginning[br]to sneak up under – into speech –

0:20:25.520,0:20:27.680
It will be a place where they'll point to

0:20:27.680,0:20:33.076
all kinds of things and make some[br]kind of insistent noise: "Mmm mmm."

0:20:33.076,0:20:38.240
The tendency for a lot of people is to think[br]that they're saying that they want that.

0:20:38.240,0:20:40.080
They point to the clock, they[br]point to this, and they go,

0:20:40.080,0:20:42.360
"Mmm mmm," and people say,[br]"No, you can't have it."

0:20:42.360,0:20:42.960
They don't want it.

0:20:42.960,0:20:44.720
They want to know what it's called.

0:20:44.720,0:20:46.760
They want to hear the name of it.

0:20:46.760,0:20:47.880
Simple as that.

0:20:47.880,0:20:48.460
I say simple.

0:20:48.460,0:20:52.080
It took me quite a number of[br]years to figure it out. [Laughter]

0:20:54.520,0:20:58.840
So they ask questions – and we can[br]answer their questions when they

0:20:58.840,0:21:18.480
ask them – give help if and when it is[br]asked for, and not too much at a time,

0:21:18.480,0:21:23.000
and give a kind of demonstration just by[br]our being there and our doing things – give

0:21:23.000,0:21:28.520
the kind of demonstration of various[br]sorts of adult skill and competence,

0:21:31.280,0:21:37.640
and pay a kind of affectionate, respectful[br]attention to what they're doing, without making

0:21:37.640,0:21:45.920
some huge, big deal of it, and give them a kind of[br]moral support in this adventure of trying to make

0:21:45.920,0:21:52.600
sense of the world – and the best way to give[br]this moral support is, in fact, to trust them,

0:21:52.600,0:21:58.680
to understand that they are, indeed, passionately[br]eager to learn about the world, extremely good

0:21:58.680,0:22:05.360
at doing it, and will, in fact, do it[br]– in their own way, in their own time.

0:22:05.360,0:22:07.240
Not to say they're going to know[br]everything about everything,

0:22:07.240,0:22:13.320
but nobody does – and that's how we can help.

0:22:13.320,0:22:20.680
But ours is a very minor role,[br]and theirs is the major one.

0:22:20.680,0:22:23.320
Okay, well, I'm preaching to the[br]converted, I know. [Chuckles]

0:22:23.320,0:22:26.520
If you weren't already half convinced[br]of this, you wouldn't be here.

0:22:26.520,0:22:32.720
But I want to say it anyway.

0:22:32.720,0:22:35.280
All right, now, the next part of my[br]talk is about something different.

0:22:35.280,0:22:37.360
Much of this conference has to do with the future,

0:22:37.360,0:22:44.960
and I want to talk a little bit about the future[br]of homeschooling and the near-run future – the

0:22:44.960,0:22:54.360
next 10 years or so – and by extension,[br]to some degree, of alternative schools.

0:22:54.360,0:22:57.496
We are – from a legislative –

0:22:57.496,0:22:58.440
[A woman comes forward.][br]Yes?

0:22:58.440,0:23:00.921
Woman: Is it possible to ask you[br]questions before you go on to the next –?

0:23:00.921,0:23:03.534
John: Yeah, yeah, sure.

0:23:03.535,0:23:03.554
Woman: I see. Okay.

0:23:03.554,0:23:06.000
John: Now, you don't have all[br]these electronics at your disposal,

0:23:06.000,0:23:22.563
so you've got to speak up – and not too fast.

0:23:22.563,0:23:22.634
Woman: Okay, I don't have a loud[br]voice, I don't know whether it carries.

0:23:22.634,0:23:22.663
You certainly are convincing.

0:23:22.663,0:23:22.722
I agree with what you say that[br]we are not going to convince.

0:23:22.722,0:23:22.800
On that part, that I'm going to disagree[br]in terms of people connected with you.

0:23:22.800,0:23:29.400
But I wonder what you have to say or[br]how you feel about what I believe is

0:23:29.400,0:23:35.120
a necessity to transmute this imperative.

0:23:35.120,0:23:41.345
And this is perhaps something[br]that can be picked up.

0:23:41.345,0:23:41.393
I agree children aren't all the same, God knows.

0:23:41.393,0:23:53.459
But we also need, I think, some input in[br]terms of direction, guidance and exposure,

0:23:53.459,0:23:53.514
and input in regard to the[br]heritage that is [inaudible].

0:23:53.514,0:23:55.222
John: All right, that's a good question.

0:23:55.222,0:23:56.520
Woman: Okay.[br]John: I'm familiar with it.

0:23:56.520,0:23:57.680
I've heard it.

0:23:57.680,0:24:00.160
I'd love to answer it, perhaps just take out very,

0:24:00.160,0:24:04.520
very briefly now, and we can go back[br]to it later and spend more time on it.

0:24:04.520,0:24:07.480
It's extremely important, in the first place,

0:24:07.480,0:24:11.640
in thinking about these things,[br]to use language accurately.

0:24:11.640,0:24:17.160
And we really have to understand the[br]difference between exposure and coercion.

0:24:17.160,0:24:19.240
Now, there's a big difference between putting –

0:24:19.240,0:24:23.240
I mean, we just went out to dinner.

0:24:23.240,0:24:27.240
The Baskins, and I and Heather,[br]we just had dinner together.

0:24:27.240,0:24:31.760
And there was the menu, and there were[br]things on different people's plates,

0:24:31.760,0:24:35.560
and we would say, "Here are some[br]capers in front of my veal."

0:24:35.560,0:24:38.600
And so we said to Heather,[br]"Would you like to try caper?"

0:24:38.600,0:24:41.520
Heather did not want to try a caper.

0:24:41.520,0:24:43.260
Well, that's exposure.

0:24:43.260,0:24:46.880
There are different kinds of food there,[br]and we say, "Would you like to try some?"

0:24:46.880,0:24:47.320
"No."

0:24:47.320,0:24:47.840
"Okay."

0:24:47.840,0:24:48.340
"No."

0:24:48.920,0:24:52.760
That's not at all the same thing as putting some[br]capers in front of Heather and saying, "You can't

0:24:52.760,0:24:56.160
leave the table until you've eaten them,"[br]or, "You can't have any dessert," or holding

0:24:56.160,0:25:06.120
her by the nose and pushing one in, which is[br]exposure as it is practiced in formal education.

0:25:06.120,0:25:08.500
There's no exposure unless you can't say no to it.

0:25:08.500,0:25:11.440
If you can't say no, it's coercion.

0:25:11.440,0:25:16.240
Really very, very, very important[br]to understand that difference,

0:25:16.240,0:25:17.800
and it's difficult, apparently.

0:25:17.800,0:25:24.120
Now, I'm just going to assert for the[br]moment that I am opposed to all forms

0:25:24.120,0:25:28.560
of coerced – or all attempts to coerce learning.

0:25:28.560,0:25:32.980
I meant to say after I had said[br]that learning is not the product of teaching,

0:25:32.980,0:25:37.840
I meant to say that teaching which[br]has not been asked for by the learner –

0:25:37.840,0:25:42.240
virtually without exception –[br]impedes and prevents learning,

0:25:42.240,0:25:48.040
and before very long will kill[br]most of the desire for learning itself.

0:25:48.040,0:25:54.200
I will say that forced learning[br]is faked learning.

0:25:54.200,0:25:58.960
I had the great traditions of culture,[br]etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. –

0:25:58.960,0:26:03.520
by which I suppose we mean Shakespeare[br]or whatever – thrust at me.

0:26:03.520,0:26:05.520
I was clever about[br]playing the school game.

0:26:05.520,0:26:06.600
I could do that trick.

0:26:06.600,0:26:08.240
And so I got my A's and B's,

0:26:08.240,0:26:11.040
and went to high-powered[br]schools and colleges, and so forth.

0:26:11.040,0:26:15.240
Most of the people who are told[br]to play this trick cannot play it,

0:26:15.240,0:26:21.680
don't play it well,[br]fail to play it altogether.

0:26:22.720,0:26:23.440
We have to understand,

0:26:23.440,0:26:25.760
we're going to probably have[br]to agree to disagree about this,

0:26:25.760,0:26:28.400
because nobody is going to be –

0:26:28.400,0:26:33.040
nobody who walks into a room[br]believing in some kind of forced learning

0:26:33.040,0:26:35.480
is going to walk out of the room[br]not believing in it

0:26:35.480,0:26:39.440
because they've heard me preach[br]this little mini-sermon about it.

0:26:39.440,0:26:41.360
But I want you[br]to be very clear about –

0:26:42.080,0:26:43.200
And I should say, by the way,

0:26:43.200,0:26:51.840
that I suspect that the number of[br]homeschoolers or alternative school people

0:26:51.840,0:26:56.360
who really agree with me[br]is probably well under 50%.

0:26:56.360,0:27:02.120
I mean, I think this is a minority view,[br]even among homeschoolers.

0:27:02.120,0:27:10.480
You don't have to believe what I just said to[br]be a homeschooler or run an alternative school.

0:27:10.480,0:27:15.480
But I'm the one who's sitting up here[br]and that's what I think. [Laughter]

0:27:15.480,0:27:17.520
{I think - you see}

0:27:17.520,0:27:23.600
If it is part of the cultural tradition,[br]it is there.

0:27:23.600,0:27:26.760
Children are very interested[br]in what is there,

0:27:26.760,0:27:31.120
and they're extremely interested[br]in what is most interesting to us.

0:27:31.120,0:27:34.000
And Shakespeare[br]is not interesting to adults,

0:27:34.000,0:27:39.600
except a handful of English teachers[br]who make a specialty of teaching,

0:27:40.280,0:27:42.200
and a fairly small handful of actors

0:27:42.200,0:27:45.460
who every so often take a shot[br]at producing one of his plays.

0:27:45.460,0:27:47.480
It usually loses money.

0:27:47.480,0:27:52.029
But other than that,[br]people don't read it.

0:27:52.029,0:27:58.440
All right, I don't want to[br]go on too long [inaudible].

0:27:58.440,0:28:03.000
But what people really care about –[br]a good example is music.

0:28:03.000,0:28:05.920
There are not very many[br]households in the United States

0:28:05.920,0:28:10.360
where people read Shakespeare just[br]for the sheer, solid pleasure of doing it.

0:28:10.360,0:28:12.360
They get this.

0:28:12.360,0:28:13.800
I've just been reading[br]some of the plays.

0:28:13.800,0:28:15.600
So, some of[br]the tragedies are lovely.

0:28:15.600,0:28:21.460
But I don't know anything in the world less[br]funny than Shakespeare trying to be funny.

0:28:21.460,0:28:23.200
Mmm!

0:28:23.200,0:28:28.600
Maybe someday, some really bold soul will[br]cut out those ponderous exchanges of puns.

0:28:28.600,0:28:31.400
It will be a great day for[br]the Bard when that happens.

0:28:31.400,0:28:34.280
I mean, they rolled in the aisles when[br]he wrote this stuff, and he knew that.

0:28:34.280,0:28:36.840
He was a practical man in the theater.

0:28:36.840,0:28:38.720
He put it in because he knew[br]it would make people laugh.

0:28:38.720,0:28:45.400
It doesn't make people laugh anymore,[br]it just makes you turn the page.

0:28:45.400,0:28:48.920
But there are hundreds and[br]hundreds of thousands of families

0:28:48.920,0:28:51.920
where music is[br]a central part of their lives,

0:28:51.920,0:28:55.320
as it's a central part of mine,[br]and in those families,

0:28:55.320,0:28:58.040
very, very few children[br]are indifferent to music.

0:28:58.760,0:29:04.640
Or let's say gardening if gardening[br]is your passion – or whatever it may be.

0:29:04.640,0:29:09.960
Children can tell from what we do what[br]sorts of things make the most difference to us.

0:29:09.960,0:29:13.480
And those are the things,[br]generally speaking, that interest them most,

0:29:13.480,0:29:16.200
unless they've gotten into[br]some rebellion kick,

0:29:16.200,0:29:19.000
and that doesn't happen[br]much in homeschooling.

0:29:19.000,0:29:23.520
So I'll ask you to let me leave it[br]at that for the time being.

0:29:24.800,0:29:29.240
No, I do not think this body[br]of whatever it is,

0:29:29.240,0:29:33.760
or this cultural tradition,[br]or whatever it is, needs to be,

0:29:33.760,0:29:42.000
or indeed can be, forced into people[br]under pressure by coercion.

0:29:42.000,0:29:43.720
If you really love Shakespeare,

0:29:43.720,0:29:46.400
go see Shakespeare plays[br]where they're performed,

0:29:46.400,0:29:48.040
and take your kids with you,

0:29:48.040,0:29:50.760
or even get a bunch of people together[br]in your neighborhood and town,

0:29:50.760,0:29:56.480
and put on an amateur production,[br]and let your kids be part of the operation.

0:29:56.480,0:30:01.280
In fact, if you really love Shakespeare,[br]you ought to be doing it anyway –

0:30:01.280,0:30:02.240
or whatever it is.

0:30:02.240,0:30:03.640
If you love music,[br]make music.

0:30:03.640,0:30:05.280
If you love gardening,[br]grow a garden.

0:30:05.280,0:30:08.200
If you love camping in the woods,[br]go camping in the woods.

0:30:08.200,0:30:10.200
If you love –[br]I don't care what it is.

0:30:10.200,0:30:20.040
But children sense that the world they get[br]from the things that we care most about.

0:30:20.040,0:30:21.840
All right.

0:30:21.840,0:30:27.560
{Let me - } I don't mean by what I say to imply[br]that I've been sort of diverted or something.

0:30:27.560,0:30:28.280
{That's very -}

0:30:28.280,0:30:30.476
it's a very central issue,[br]and I'm glad you asked -

0:30:30.476,0:30:35.320
I'm glad you[br]raised that point.

0:30:35.320,0:30:38.800
The homeschooling movement[br]is in the middle of

0:30:38.800,0:30:41.600
an extremely interesting[br]and important period

0:30:41.600,0:30:52.040
of political and legislative change –[br]and judicial, too, I would say.

0:30:52.040,0:30:55.680
Ten years ago, five years ago, I think[br]you could have said accurately that the

0:30:55.680,0:30:59.960
great majority of people who[br]were teaching their own kids,

0:30:59.960,0:31:06.680
and not just underground, not just hiding[br]out, were doing it - were making use of

0:31:06.680,0:31:12.400
what you would have to call loopholes[br]in the law, of one kind or another.

0:31:12.400,0:31:15.600
Things which had been put in the[br]law not with homeschooling in mind,

0:31:15.600,0:31:20.080
but with something quite different.

0:31:20.080,0:31:23.200
In many places, in many states around the country,

0:31:23.200,0:31:26.920
the compulsory school attendance laws[br]had some kind of a clause in them

0:31:26.920,0:31:33.160
about kids have to go to school or get some[br]equivalent kind of instruction or education.

0:31:33.160,0:31:38.760
Now, this was - this clause was not put into[br]the law to make things easy for homeschoolers.

0:31:38.760,0:31:42.960
But to take care of children who, for[br]mostly medical reasons, were not able

0:31:42.960,0:31:49.320
to go to school and they were probably thinking[br]of retarded or emotionally disturbed children who

0:31:49.320,0:31:52.320
couldn't go to school because the schools[br]didn't want them or couldn't handle them.

0:31:52.320,0:31:57.560
So they wanted to make some[br]kind of legal alternative.

0:31:57.560,0:32:00.680
The farthest thing they could have had[br]from their minds, the legislatures,

0:32:00.680,0:32:05.000
when they put these clauses in, was[br]that people who had the choice of

0:32:05.000,0:32:11.640
sending their kids to school, people[br]whose kids were, as they say, normal,

0:32:11.640,0:32:15.320
would decide that they didn't want to send them[br]to school so they could teach them themselves.

0:32:15.320,0:32:18.040
Nevertheless, there was that[br]loophole, and for a while,

0:32:18.040,0:32:20.600
in lots of places, people were slipping through.

0:32:20.600,0:32:25.600
The other great loophole was the private school[br]loophole where many states in the country in which

0:32:25.600,0:32:32.600
private schools were not regulated by law or not[br]regulated by the compulsory school attendance law.

0:32:32.600,0:32:36.800
Now, that was not done to[br]make homeschooling possible.

0:32:36.800,0:32:41.480
It was done for quite other sorts of reasons.

0:32:41.480,0:32:45.160
When legislators decided that private[br]schools would not be regulated,

0:32:45.160,0:32:50.720
it was to a large degree because private[br]schools had their own police mechanisms,

0:32:50.720,0:32:55.720
they - what you would call a non-alternative[br]independent or private schools.

0:32:55.720,0:33:00.680
The rich folks' private schools have their[br]own National Association of Independent

0:33:00.680,0:33:04.352
Schools, Midwestern Association of[br]Independent Schools – New England.

0:33:04.352,0:33:05.840
I mean, they have their own inspectors,

0:33:05.840,0:33:11.600
and their own checkers-uppers-on,[br]and so forth, and so forth.

0:33:11.600,0:33:13.960
So, they were not sort of flying free in the air.

0:33:13.960,0:33:17.120
Also, legislators, I think, tend to operate on the

0:33:17.120,0:33:22.920
assumption that rich people know[br]what they're doing – you know?

0:33:22.920,0:33:30.160
They say, "Private schools are expensive," or[br]at least they used to be thought of that way,

0:33:30.160,0:33:37.400
and that's what legislators were thinking[br]when they decided not to try to regulate them.

0:33:37.400,0:33:41.360
And they said, "If you've got 50 or[br]a hundred fairly wealthy families,

0:33:41.360,0:33:47.080
and they're all satisfied with the school, chances[br]are something has got to be going on there.".

0:33:47.080,0:33:52.794
Rich people are not terribly innovative,[br]as a general rule. [Laughter]

0:33:52.794,0:33:55.200
John: "And in any case, since they're[br]rich, even if their kids goof up,

0:33:55.200,0:33:59.160
they'll always be able to take care of them, so we[br]don't have to worry about their being on welfare.

0:33:59.160,0:34:04.440
So generally speaking, we can let them alone."

0:34:04.440,0:34:08.240
But the farthest thing in the[br]world they had in mind was that

0:34:08.240,0:34:11.280
this would be used in the way that[br]homeschoolers started to use it.

0:34:11.280,0:34:15.320
Well, that's where we were roughly[br]five or six years ago, we were all

0:34:15.320,0:34:20.480
happily crawling under this fence, as[br]it were, pulling up the barbed wire,

0:34:20.480,0:34:26.920
and slipping under the bottom strand [chuckles][br]– and it was very nice while it lasted.

0:34:26.920,0:34:31.600
I mean, there was no regulation, and[br]no tests, and no papers to fill out.

0:34:31.600,0:34:35.280
Some states built a one-page something[br]or other about "my home is a private

0:34:35.280,0:34:45.320
school," and it was very nice, but it[br]perfectly obviously wasn't going to last.

0:34:45.320,0:34:47.100
It was obvious to me that it wasn't going to last.

0:34:47.100,0:34:54.040
It could not be made to last – that as we got[br]bigger and stronger, and got to be heard more

0:34:54.040,0:34:59.120
of in one thing or another, that people,[br]the courts, the public schools themselves,

0:34:59.120,0:35:07.800
the legislatures were going to begin to pay[br]attention and say, "Hey, what about this?

0:35:07.800,0:35:16.880
Well, roughly about two or three years ago,[br]we began to see – I say roughly – it differs

0:35:16.880,0:35:22.400
from state to state – but we began to see[br]the beginnings of attempts – in some cases

0:35:22.400,0:35:27.920
in the form of laws, and in some cases in the[br]form of administrative regulations – attempts

0:35:27.920,0:35:33.280
to make homeschooling illegal or virtually[br]impossible in Maryland, and Georgia,

0:35:33.280,0:35:40.480
and in other states – for a while in California,[br]which had been one of our chief homeschooling

0:35:40.480,0:35:48.880
states – the authorities began to try to[br]think of ways of making this very difficult.

0:35:48.880,0:35:53.360
And a couple of years ago, we at[br]Growing Without Schooling certainly

0:35:54.280,0:35:59.340
felt that the homeschooling movement[br]was in a kind of fight for its life.

0:35:59.340,0:36:05.600
Well, I don't mean to say that the fight isn't[br]over, but in fact, none of those attempts to

0:36:05.600,0:36:10.600
rule out homeschooling, stamp it out, make[br]it impossible, none of them succeeded.

0:36:10.600,0:36:18.040
In no place has a legislature written a kind[br]of anti-homeschooling law in that sense.

0:36:18.040,0:36:26.600
We've been under lots of pressure,[br]lots of pressure to do so.

0:36:26.600,0:36:30.920
{What they did start doing is} I should say[br]a similar thing was happening in the courts

0:36:30.920,0:36:37.640
in a number of states in which people had been[br]homeschooling through the private school option.

0:36:37.640,0:36:41.200
The courts began to say a home all[br]by itself can't be a private school.

0:36:41.200,0:36:45.920
That was our situation in Virginia[br]before the law was passed there.

0:36:45.920,0:36:48.720
So the loopholes were being closed up.

0:36:48.720,0:36:54.360
The fence was being repaired so that[br]animals couldn't get up through the bottom.

0:36:54.360,0:36:59.600
But at the same time, the legislatures began[br]to put some kind of a gate in the fence.

0:37:00.400,0:37:05.760
One way or another, they began to try to[br]legitimize homeschooling to make it explicitly

0:37:05.760,0:37:12.160
legal, and say, "Yes, people can teach their[br]own kids if they do this, that, or the other."

0:37:12.160,0:37:16.480
Since then, there've been a considerable[br]number of these kinds of laws passed.

0:37:16.480,0:37:17.400
I lose track.

0:37:18.200,0:37:22.880
In GWS 44, I think – in fact,[br]when we sent it to press,

0:37:22.880,0:37:26.120
we said there were 14 states[br]considering such laws.

0:37:26.120,0:37:29.680
I believe that since then, at least[br]three of them, maybe four – Arkansas,

0:37:29.680,0:37:36.400
Wyoming, New Mexico, state of Washington[br]– we had a very tough time in the state

0:37:36.400,0:37:46.480
of Washington – have passed one or[br]another kinds of legislation making

0:37:46.480,0:37:50.120
homeschooling explicitly legal with[br]this, that, or the other condition.

0:37:50.120,0:37:53.680
And we expect many more states to do that.

0:37:53.680,0:37:57.600
We'll probably see more even before[br]the end of this legislative session.

0:37:57.600,0:38:01.360
And I would hazard a rough guess that[br]we'll continue to see half a dozen

0:38:01.360,0:38:07.160
or a dozen states a year doing this,[br]and dozens, perhaps, to many a year.

0:38:07.160,0:38:13.840
And I would say that, oh, within five[br]years, we will probably see very few

0:38:13.840,0:38:22.920
states in which there is not some explicit[br]reference to homeschooling in the law.

0:38:22.920,0:38:27.600
Now, I consider this an extraordinarily[br]important move forward, even though,

0:38:27.600,0:38:33.320
in many cases, I'm not happy[br]with the qualifying restrictions.

0:38:33.320,0:38:40.480
Many of them talk about the use[br]of standardized achievement tests.

0:38:41.600,0:38:45.640
Though that is not a problem[br]for probably 80% of homeschoolers,

0:38:45.640,0:38:48.560
it can be a very serious problem[br]for people whose children

0:38:48.560,0:38:53.800
are late starters in reading,[br]or in whatever else it may be,

0:38:53.800,0:38:57.440
or happen not to like arithmetic,[br]or be a little afraid of it, or something.

0:39:01.160,0:39:12.880
And I think it's a very important step[br]forward that legislators

0:39:12.880,0:39:19.480
are beginning to see[br]homeschooling as a legitimate activity,

0:39:19.480,0:39:25.240
rather than some kind of[br]weird, strange, outlaw idea.

0:39:25.240,0:39:32.080
Now, what I think we have to do, along with[br]getting more of these kinds of laws passed –

0:39:32.080,0:39:40.440
and we'll probably be 10 or 15 years at it –[br]is educating the legislatures,

0:39:40.440,0:39:44.600
and particularly[br]the individual legislators –

0:39:44.600,0:39:51.160
away from rigid curriculums,[br]standardized achievement tests,

0:39:51.160,0:39:55.840
all kinds of attempts to reduce[br]human beings to numbers.

0:39:58.040,0:40:01.400
I think a lot of them are ready[br]to say now, in fact,

0:40:01.400,0:40:02.880
"Well, yeah, people[br]can teach their own kids

0:40:02.880,0:40:04.680
if they do it just the way[br]the schools do it."

0:40:04.680,0:40:07.640
But that's obviously[br]not satisfactory.

0:40:07.640,0:40:11.560
But we have to get them to see –[br]in one way or another,

0:40:11.560,0:40:14.840
to get into law at least some of the spirit

0:40:14.840,0:40:16.920
in which I talked to you[br]at the beginning of this meeting –

0:40:16.920,0:40:26.240
some feeling that there are other ways[br]besides the rigid curriculums of schools,

0:40:26.240,0:40:28.560
and the endless[br]little numerical tests.

0:40:28.560,0:40:33.200
There are other ways[br]of observing and taking note of learning,

0:40:33.200,0:40:36.300
of observing children's[br]growth in the world, and so forth.

0:40:36.300,0:40:40.680
Now, this is already being done,[br]of course, in some places.

0:40:40.680,0:40:45.160
But I would like to see,[br]for example, something in the law,

0:40:45.160,0:40:48.960
some kind of amendment[br]somewhere down the line

0:40:48.960,0:40:54.040
saying that parents and educational authorities,[br]in evaluating the learning of children,

0:40:54.040,0:40:58.240
may use, but shall not be[br]required to use or restricted to using,

0:40:58.240,0:41:03.880
the standardized[br]and other numerical tests.

0:41:03.880,0:41:09.760
I don't think very many legislatures would pass[br]such a resolution if we introduced it tomorrow.

0:41:09.760,0:41:11.840
But I think if we do[br]the right sorts of things,

0:41:11.840,0:41:14.000
that it's very possible that[br]a great many of them

0:41:14.000,0:41:22.600
will do so by, let's say,[br]a decade from now.

0:41:22.600,0:41:26.880
I speak of educating legislators, and[br]I'm not at all thinking of lobbying groups.

0:41:26.880,0:41:29.820
What I have in mind is that homeschoolers –

0:41:29.820,0:41:34.660
and also, again, insofar as[br]they are encumbered by The law –

0:41:34.660,0:41:39.760
alternative schoolers must get to know[br]their own legislators personally,

0:41:39.760,0:41:46.320
individually, meet them, go see them,[br]take their children, become a kind of pen pal,

0:41:46.320,0:41:48.800
write them occasional letters saying,

0:41:48.800,0:41:52.160
"Thought you might be interested[br]to hear what my kids are up to recently.

0:41:52.160,0:41:58.360
The other day we went, and my eight-year-old[br]child took 25 books out of the library,

0:41:58.360,0:42:04.240
which is more books than most school[br]kids read in a year, or two, or five."

0:42:06.240,0:42:12.160
We have got to begin to get into a kind of[br]continuing communication with these people,

0:42:12.160,0:42:15.360
so they begin to understand,[br]as we understand,

0:42:15.360,0:42:19.960
how this organic[br]natural learning takes place.

0:42:19.960,0:42:22.720
And of course, if bad bills[br]get introduced, of course,

0:42:22.720,0:42:26.200
we all have to hustle down to[br]the state capitol and do that number –

0:42:26.200,0:42:26.760
and obviously,

0:42:26.760,0:42:29.520
we've been very good at it.

0:42:29.520,0:42:30.520
But that's not all.

0:42:30.520,0:42:34.760
I mean, "I don't write my legislator[br]except when some kind of legislation

0:42:34.760,0:42:36.520
is coming up that I'm worried about,"

0:42:36.520,0:42:37.991
this doesn't seem to me to be enough.[br]QQQ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

0:42:37.991,0:42:38.040
SEGMENTING COMPLETE TO HERE[br]= = = = = = = = = = =

0:42:38.040,0:42:44.240
I really think we have to try – as far[br]as we can – we have to try to bring these

0:42:44.240,0:42:52.520
people into the homeschooling family – and[br]it is a family – a collection of families.

0:42:52.520,0:43:04.560
So I see this as the main part of the future[br]of homeschooling in the next decade or so.

0:43:04.560,0:43:08.960
I think alternative schools can play[br]a very important part in this – as

0:43:08.960,0:43:12.800
indeed the Clonlara School and the Santa[br]Fe Community school and a number of others

0:43:12.800,0:43:21.080
already have – by providing a kind of[br]support for homeschooling families.

0:43:22.040,0:43:24.713
I don't know if Santa Fe was[br]the first school to do that.

0:43:24.713,0:43:27.120
It was the first one I knew about[br]that was doing it, but anyway.

0:43:28.720,0:43:36.080
And by now, we have a number of independent[br]alternative schools around the country,

0:43:36.080,0:43:43.280
which not only have their own buildings and[br]classes – there's a physical school there in

0:43:43.280,0:43:51.000
place – but they also provide a kind of legal and[br]educational support to homeschooling families.

0:43:51.000,0:43:55.320
Many of you might be on the[br]other end of the country.

0:43:55.320,0:44:01.520
I would like to see a much larger[br]network of these kinds of schools.

0:44:01.520,0:44:05.840
We now have – oh, I guess around[br]the United States – several dozen.

0:44:05.840,0:44:11.600
But we'd be in a very much stronger[br]position if we had many hundreds of them.

0:44:11.600,0:44:15.840
Let's see here.

0:44:15.840,0:44:22.960
Excuse me a sec here.

0:44:22.960,0:44:26.040
Amazing machines here.

0:44:26.040,0:44:31.040
I think the small tape recorders –[br]and they are now have really quite

0:44:31.040,0:44:37.000
astonishing sound quality – are one of[br]the great educational tools of our time.

0:44:37.000,0:44:42.520
And for all the talk about computers,[br]I think this is a gadget which has many

0:44:42.520,0:44:48.320
other kinds of possibilities, which I don't[br]think we have done as much with as we might.

0:44:48.320,0:44:53.400
Like typewriters, this is a machine which[br]is really fascinating to a lot of children –

0:44:53.400,0:45:01.040
the experience of saying things into it and then[br]hearing them back – very strange, very powerful.

0:45:05.640,0:45:06.280
All right.

0:45:06.280,0:45:09.080
Now, let's see.

0:45:09.080,0:45:18.120
So, I was talking about a very large network –[br]hundreds, thousands – of alternative schools,

0:45:18.120,0:45:22.380
independent schools around the country[br]– in some cases, public schools.

0:45:22.380,0:45:25.720
Because there are public schools[br]that also offer this kind of support.

0:45:25.720,0:45:33.960
The number is not very[br]large, but it's also growing.

0:45:33.960,0:45:36.440
All right, now, I want to switch to a different –

0:45:36.440,0:45:43.000
in the last part of this talk, to a look[br]at the future in a quite different sense –

0:45:43.000,0:45:46.280
not the future of homeschooling, or[br]the future of alternative schooling,

0:45:46.280,0:45:53.760
but the future of the world –[br]particularly of this country.

0:45:53.760,0:45:57.480
First thing I have to say is that everybody[br]who talks about the future is guessing.

0:45:57.480,0:45:58.040
Nobody knows.

0:45:58.040,0:45:58.800
There is no future.

0:45:58.800,0:46:00.080
It doesn't exist.

0:46:00.080,0:46:04.560
It isn't as if we're riding[br]along on a train and 20 miles

0:46:04.560,0:46:07.120
down the track there was a station[br]that we were going to pull into,

0:46:07.120,0:46:09.720
and it was just a matter of[br]talking about what it was.

0:46:09.720,0:46:12.240
The future isn't there.

0:46:12.240,0:46:20.680
We make it as we live.

0:46:20.680,0:46:21.480
{Most of the people}

0:46:21.480,0:46:25.360
I'm extremely skeptical, I have to say, of[br]most of the people who are making a living –

0:46:25.360,0:46:31.200
and quite a lot of them are, and they're living a[br]lot fancier than I am – talking about this future.

0:46:31.200,0:46:35.440
And mostly what they do is they find some[br]kind of a graph that goes up to 1985,

0:46:35.440,0:46:38.080
and then they just keep running it up the page.

0:46:38.080,0:46:42.080
Well If predicting the future were[br]that easy, we'd all be billionaires,

0:46:42.080,0:46:44.360
because we'd just look at[br]the stock market quotations,

0:46:44.360,0:46:47.600
and see what stock had been going up[br]for the last week, and then buy it.

0:46:47.600,0:46:55.200
The problem is the graph that[br]doesn't always keep going up.

0:46:55.200,0:46:59.800
There are an awful lot of high-powered people[br]in this country connected with the oil business,

0:46:59.800,0:47:05.000
connected with the government, connected[br]with the defense industry who made it

0:47:05.000,0:47:08.320
their business to know what was[br]going on in the world of oil.

0:47:08.320,0:47:11.780
And none – not one, not a[br]single one of these people –

0:47:11.780,0:47:16.840
predicted what came to be called the[br]"oil crisis – when was it, ten years ago?

0:47:16.840,0:47:19.400
Nobody predicted it.

0:47:19.400,0:47:22.660
And nobody, with a few possible exceptions –

0:47:22.660,0:47:25.600
maybe Amory Lovins, maybe a few conservationists

0:47:25.600,0:47:28.720
once we were in the middle[br]of that terrible crisis –

0:47:28.720,0:47:33.200
predicted that in five or less than 10[br]years we were going to be out of it,

0:47:33.200,0:47:38.120
because we would smarten[br]up and start saving energy.

0:47:38.120,0:47:43.400
The oil crisis came by[br]surprise and went by surprise.

0:47:43.400,0:47:45.320
So, it's not easy.

0:47:45.320,0:47:49.473
One of the big future books that's –

0:47:49.473,0:47:53.640
boy, I wish I had 10% of[br]the money that it's made –

0:47:53.640,0:47:58.480
talks about the Sun Belt[br]and the motion of industry,

0:47:58.480,0:48:01.160
the economic flight from[br]the North to the Sun Belt,

0:48:01.160,0:48:06.040
and it says this is a major[br]trend in American history,

0:48:06.040,0:48:08.000
and it's irreversible, and it's going to continue.

0:48:08.000,0:48:09.760
We can just see more and more of this happening.

0:48:09.760,0:48:13.080
Well, I get a certain wry amusement out of this.

0:48:13.080,0:48:19.000
I come from the old Frost Belt up there[br]in New England, and we are the most –

0:48:19.000,0:48:23.760
as regions go at the moment – probably the most[br]economically prosperous region of the country.

0:48:23.760,0:48:25.440
We have the lowest unemployment rate.

0:48:25.440,0:48:32.360
My home state of Massachusetts has the lowest[br]unemployment rate in any industrial state.

0:48:32.360,0:48:36.980
My home city of Boston has what they[br]call an office vacancy rate of 1%.

0:48:36.980,0:48:41.120
Of course, Houston has about 30%.

0:48:42.480,0:48:47.280
So, the old Frost Belt isn't doing too bad.

0:48:47.280,0:48:50.720
Right now what we're worried about is drought.

0:48:51.920,0:48:56.000
But that's going to be a big[br]problem for the whole country.

0:48:56.000,0:48:56.920
Very, very hard.

0:48:56.920,0:48:59.080
But there are some indicators.

0:48:59.080,0:48:59.880
Nothing is certain.

0:48:59.880,0:49:02.200
There are some indicators that give us, I think,

0:49:02.200,0:49:06.840
a pretty strong indication of the[br]way some things are likely to go.

0:49:06.840,0:49:11.360
There are really big, big, deep sort of trends,

0:49:11.360,0:49:15.280
and I want to talk about just one of them tonight.

0:49:15.280,0:49:21.160
[Coughs] Excuse me.

0:49:21.160,0:49:31.320
The Boston Globe, our local bladder,[br][laughter] is a kind of nice paper.

0:49:31.320,0:49:35.800
I don't know how much news in it, but it has a lot[br]of good writers, and they have quite a lot of fun.

0:49:35.800,0:49:41.800
So, it's an entertaining sheet.

0:49:41.800,0:49:45.320
And not bad, as these things go.

0:49:45.320,0:49:48.320
It had an article a year and a half ago, maybe,

0:49:48.320,0:49:53.920
about wages in different parts[br]of the world – industrial wages.

0:49:53.920,0:49:59.640
And there's a map, a nice big-page article.

0:49:59.640,0:50:09.080
And they were comparing average hourly industrial[br]wages in the world's manufacturing countries.

0:50:09.080,0:50:11.160
Now, economists, I guess,

0:50:11.160,0:50:14.040
could spend the whole weekend talking[br]about how you achieve these figures,

0:50:14.040,0:50:19.320
and how you balance out this versus that, how you[br]figure out benign climates versus cold climates,

0:50:19.320,0:50:22.720
and what do you do about fringe[br]benefits, and this, that, and the other.

0:50:22.720,0:50:26.640
And I'm going to accept those figures[br]more or less as they were given to me.

0:50:27.200,0:50:32.720
And what it said was that the United States[br]had the highest average hourly industrial wage.

0:50:32.720,0:50:37.560
They didn't say what is industrial[br]and what isn't – not to get into that.

0:50:37.560,0:50:40.960
And it was something like $10.77 an hour.

0:50:40.960,0:50:44.680
And there was Canada pretty[br]close behind, and Switzerland,

0:50:44.680,0:50:48.640
and then a bunch of the Western[br]European nations – $8.00 or so – $7.50.

0:50:49.160,0:50:52.560
And then, Japan, $5.50.

0:50:53.120,0:50:58.880
And then Mexico, Brazil, some[br]down to the $2.00, $2.50 range.

0:50:58.880,0:51:03.200
And then we got down to what they[br]call the Pacific Rim nations:

0:51:03.200,0:51:10.560
Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea,[br]a couple of others maybe,

0:51:10.560,0:51:15.600
and these were running $1.25, $1.50 an hour.

0:51:15.600,0:51:20.520
And then India – the figure[br]they gave was $0.39 an hour –

0:51:20.520,0:51:28.960
and Sri Lanka, which us old cats used to[br]call Ceylon, near India, was $0.21 an hour.

0:51:28.960,0:51:36.280
Now, those are very, very,[br]very significant figures.

0:51:36.280,0:51:42.840
At one point in, the article they[br]quoted a young woman who's working

0:51:42.840,0:51:47.720
in one of these new electronic shops in[br]Hong Kong where the American computer

0:51:47.720,0:51:51.680
manufacturers are fleeing just as[br]fast as their legs will carry them –

0:51:51.680,0:51:54.920
those that are still in[br]business at all, I should add.

0:51:55.480,0:52:01.800
And that little future balloon[br]went down in a big hurry,

0:52:01.800,0:52:06.120
and has yet further to go, I will add.

0:52:06.120,0:52:10.960
That revolution lasted about two or three years.

0:52:13.800,0:52:19.880
But someone was talking to this young[br]woman who's earning $1.22 an hour,

0:52:19.880,0:52:25.200
making whatever it is, and[br]just happy as a clam to be

0:52:25.200,0:52:28.360
enjoying this wage which was probably ten times,

0:52:28.360,0:52:32.760
five times higher than anything[br]they had seen a decade before.

0:52:32.760,0:52:37.680
And she said, "Of course, we know it's[br]only going to be a matter of time before

0:52:37.680,0:52:49.560
the jobs all go to someplace like Sri Lanka,[br]where they only have to pay $0.21 an hour.

0:52:49.560,0:52:58.280
And the picture for me is of jobs as a[br]kind of great flock of migratory birds,

0:52:58.280,0:53:03.120
which fly from one place to another and settle

0:53:03.120,0:53:08.280
down and deposit a certain amount[br]of wealth there while they're there,

0:53:08.280,0:53:13.560
but soon they'll take off again looking for[br]some other place where the wages are even lower.

0:53:13.560,0:53:15.240
And that's not a bad figure of speech.

0:53:15.240,0:53:18.920
We saw that happen in this country[br]when the northern industries –

0:53:18.920,0:53:22.400
this was certainly true of[br]the mills in New England –

0:53:22.400,0:53:27.400
went down south where they could[br]get non-union and cheaper labor.

0:53:30.800,0:53:35.000
With the modern mobility of capital[br]in the multinational corporation,

0:53:35.000,0:53:37.200
jobs do in fact tend to –

0:53:38.000,0:53:42.440
many of them anyway – are pretty free to[br]migrate to where the wages are lowest,

0:53:42.440,0:53:46.340
and that's where they're going to roost.

0:53:46.340,0:53:52.280
Now, one of the things that struck me about that[br]article was that nothing was said about China.

0:53:52.280,0:53:55.160
And I found myself wondering, "Hey, where[br]do the Chinese fit into this picture?"

0:53:55.160,0:53:59.240
Why, they're probably under a dollar an[br]hour, $0.50 an hour maybe, I thought.

0:53:59.240,0:54:03.080
At any rate, it had to be a pretty low figure.

0:54:03.080,0:54:11.400
Under a billion people in that country.

0:54:11.400,0:54:18.360
Recently, my question was answered more[br]or less reliably by another article,

0:54:18.360,0:54:23.640
this time in the "Christian Science Monitor,"[br]and this wasn't about economics at all,

0:54:23.640,0:54:26.520
it was about a British rock[br]group called "Wham," which has

0:54:26.520,0:54:32.880
just gone to China and caused a great[br]upheaval of various kinds there.

0:54:32.880,0:54:37.640
But like all things Western, it's very popular[br]with the young people in the new China.

0:54:37.640,0:54:43.840
The article described a young Chinese workman[br]standing in line for five or six hours,

0:54:43.840,0:54:49.240
just like his American counterparts,[br]to buy a ticket to hear Wham.

0:54:49.240,0:54:52.000
And it said in passing that he[br]had to pay – for this ticket –

0:54:52.000,0:55:06.480
he had to pay 5 yuan – parenthesis,[br]$1.75, or 2 days' wages.

0:55:06.480,0:55:09.840
Two days' wages.

0:55:09.840,0:55:18.560
If you figure an 8-hour day, we're talking[br]about just a little bit more than $0.10 an hour.

0:55:18.560,0:55:20.680
And there are a billion people over there,

0:55:20.680,0:55:26.320
most of whom are ready and eager[br]to work at that kind of wage.

0:55:29.640,0:55:33.400
Now, this is bound to have a lot to say about,

0:55:33.400,0:55:37.840
not only our future, but the future of all[br]of what we think of as the highly-developed

0:55:37.840,0:55:44.280
wealthy countries of the North[br]Atlantic, let's say, community.

0:55:44.280,0:55:50.000
Given, again, the mobility of[br]capital, there is no possible

0:55:50.000,0:55:56.240
way that the wealthy countries of the[br]world are going to be able to employ

0:55:57.600,0:56:06.480
their populations at $10 or $9 or $8 or[br]$7, for that matter Japan, $5.50 an hour.

0:56:06.480,0:56:11.080
They're not going to be able to do it.

0:56:11.080,0:56:14.880
In other words, as nearly as one[br]can say anything about the future,

0:56:14.880,0:56:17.000
it is certain that the rich countries of the world

0:56:17.000,0:56:26.240
are going to get a lot less[br]rich, as we have defined rich.

0:56:28.880,0:56:32.240
And what the consequences of that may[br]be, we've talked for a long time –

0:56:32.240,0:56:34.560
there could be whole conferences – I hope someday

0:56:34.560,0:56:39.760
there will be if there are not any[br]yet – about what this really means.

0:56:39.760,0:56:43.680
None of the people who were[br]running for election in the last

0:56:43.680,0:56:44.320
campaign –

0:56:44.320,0:56:47.240
even those who talk glibly about new ideas –

0:56:47.240,0:56:51.400
none of them seem to have the[br]faintest idea that this is going on,

0:56:51.400,0:56:54.120
or what this means, or what they might do with it.

0:56:54.120,0:56:56.240
This is going to call for a lot of hard thinking.

0:56:56.240,0:56:59.260
To say just a very short thing about us,

0:56:59.260,0:57:01.840
I'd say we're going to have to[br]rediscover thrift in this country.

0:57:01.840,0:57:10.960
We're going to have to discover that efficiency[br]is not the same thing as making a lot of stuff.

0:57:10.960,0:57:14.680
We're going to have to rediscover –

0:57:14.680,0:57:16.880
learn how to do the most with the least.

0:57:16.880,0:57:20.760
Old New England motto: Wear it out.

0:57:20.760,0:57:21.640
Let's see, no.

0:57:21.640,0:57:26.400
"Use it up, wear it out, make it do,[br]do without" – the old Yankee saying.

0:57:26.400,0:57:30.720
Or old Ben's, "A penny saved is a penny earned.

0:57:30.720,0:57:32.480
We're going to rediscover the truth of that.

0:57:32.480,0:57:38.040
We're going to start learning[br]how to darn socks again.

0:57:38.040,0:57:39.440
I don't think that's a bad thing.

0:57:39.440,0:57:48.320
I think we'll be probably a very much better,[br]more interesting, more equitable country if

0:57:48.320,0:57:55.240
we learn to revise our ideas about what[br]is true wealth, what is true efficiency.

0:57:55.240,0:58:00.480
But that's a big topic, and it's not really[br]the topic we've come here to discuss.{I just}

0:58:00.480,0:58:03.080
If we're going to be talking[br]or thinking about the future,

0:58:03.080,0:58:09.240
I think this is an element in it[br]that we can't afford to neglect.

0:58:09.240,0:58:15.680
Okay, well that's all for the big formal[br]speech, if it struck you that way.

0:58:16.880,0:58:23.200
So now we can move into some[br]kind of questions, discussion,

0:58:23.200,0:58:26.840
comment on whatever you want to talk about.

0:58:26.840,0:58:28.960
I mean, we can talk about any[br]of the things I've talked about,

0:58:28.960,0:58:32.680
or if you came here wanting to talk about[br]something else, we can talk about that too,

0:58:32.680,0:58:37.360
unless I don't know anything at[br]all about it, I will tell you.

0:58:37.360,0:58:39.840
I can tell you how to begin on the cello.

0:58:39.840,0:58:43.800
I can't tell you how to[br]become a magnificent player.

0:58:43.800,0:58:50.880
Well, as soon as I learn, I will tell you that.

0:58:50.880,0:58:52.160
Sir.

0:58:52.160,0:58:52.708
Jerry Mintz: Hi.

0:58:52.708,0:58:55.094
Jerry Mintz from Shaker[br]Mountain School in Vermont.

0:58:55.094,0:58:56.040
{We can't hear you.}[br]John: Oh, hi, Jerry.

0:58:57.200,0:59:01.000
Jerry: {I just hope} One thing I was[br]thinking about is that you missed,

0:59:01.000,0:59:10.290
somewhere between Ceylon and India, the wages[br]of alternative school people. [Laughter]

0:59:10.290,0:59:10.304
John: Yes.[br]Yes.

0:59:10.304,0:59:12.920
Jerry Mintz: It may mean that the[br]industry may flock to the free schools.

0:59:12.920,0:59:16.680
I'm not sure. [Laughter]

0:59:16.680,0:59:26.280
One thing I was wondering about is what you think[br]the difference is between parents who are exposing

0:59:26.280,0:59:31.200
their kids to education or to learning[br]without coercion and schools that are

0:59:31.200,0:59:34.320
exposing their kids to learning without coercion.

0:59:34.320,0:59:38.320
And our school doesn't require kids[br]to go to any particular classes.

0:59:38.320,0:59:41.160
And on the other side of the[br]coin, the difference between

0:59:41.160,0:59:46.260
parents who are coercing their kids and[br]schools that are coercing their kids.

0:59:46.260,0:59:52.360
John: Well, the key difference for me is the[br]difference between coercion and non-coercion.

0:59:52.360,0:59:56.040
In other words, if I thought that the

0:59:56.960,1:00:02.920
homeschooling movement was made up largely[br]or entirely of people who wanted to coerce

1:00:02.920,1:00:05.760
their kids and just thought they could[br]do a better job of it than schools could,

1:00:05.760,1:00:09.440
I wouldn't have spent two[br]minutes on this activity.

1:00:09.440,1:00:12.840
My interest in homeschooling, and, for[br]that matter, alternative schooling –

1:00:12.840,1:00:19.120
and I was interested in alternative schools[br]before I became interested in homeschooling –

1:00:19.120,1:00:23.120
my interest in it is that it[br]makes it at least possible –

1:00:23.120,1:00:26.120
for those people who want to[br]give their children a natural,

1:00:26.120,1:00:29.600
organic, uncoerced learning experience – to do so.

1:00:29.600,1:00:32.280
Not everybody is going to use it that way.

1:00:32.280,1:00:39.920
People start schools which they hope will be[br]even more coercive than the schools that exist.

1:00:39.920,1:00:43.080
There are certainly some people[br]who teach their children thinking

1:00:43.080,1:00:47.040
that they can pound in learning faster[br]than the local schools were doing it.

1:00:47.040,1:00:53.160
I don't think many of them stick it out very[br]long because they find out it doesn't work.

1:00:56.560,1:01:11.200
No, I mean, if I look far enough down the line,[br]I like to think of schools as learning-experiment

1:01:11.200,1:01:17.000
activity centers, somewhat analogous to public[br]libraries, although rather wider in scope,

1:01:17.000,1:01:20.240
places to which people can[br]come if they feel like coming,

1:01:20.240,1:01:24.920
to do the things that they want to do[br]for as long as they want to do them.

1:01:24.920,1:01:32.400
And {I kind of – }I would hope that[br]somewhere we would find a way to call

1:01:32.400,1:01:37.160
these places something other than schools because[br]they're really very fundamentally very different.

1:01:37.160,1:01:42.520
"Club" would be nice if we just[br]kind of dared to do it. [Laughter]

1:01:42.520,1:01:44.680
We have a film that a friend of mine,

1:01:44.680,1:01:48.320
my friend Peggy Hughes, made in[br]Denmark of the preschool there.

1:01:48.320,1:01:51.160
The film was called "We Have to Call It School."

1:01:51.160,1:01:56.920
And the film begins with this young[br]Danish teacher there saying in English,

1:01:56.920,1:02:00.120
"We have to call it school because if we didn't,

1:02:00.120,1:02:01.720
they wouldn't let the[br]children come here."[Laughter]

1:02:03.680,1:02:08.080
But it would be nice if, in[br]our minds, we thought about

1:02:08.080,1:02:15.080
these non-coercive gathering-and-activity[br]places as something other than a school.

1:02:15.080,1:02:15.920
I like "club."

1:02:15.920,1:02:18.380
I mean, club has a –

1:02:18.380,1:02:24.000
But you can pick what word you[br]like, or invent a brand new one.

1:02:25.040,1:02:29.520
Ultimately, I suppose I'd like to[br]see all schools evolve this way.

1:02:29.520,1:02:34.880
I don't think, certainly not in my lifetime[br]and not in any future that I can see,

1:02:34.880,1:02:42.320
can I imagine legislatures striking[br]compulsory attendance laws off the books.

1:02:42.320,1:02:48.240
But I can imagine more and more schools defining[br]attendance in just the way you define it,

1:02:49.880,1:02:55.080
so that the difference between being in school[br]and not being in school gets so fuzzed over

1:02:55.080,1:03:02.040
that you can't tell any longer when somebody[br]is in or when somebody is out.{now I don't}

1:03:02.040,1:03:05.140
Have I spoken to your point, or was there[br]something other you'd like to get out?

1:03:05.140,1:03:11.600
Jerry: In other words, do you consider that it[br]would be advantageous for a parent to homeschool

1:03:11.600,1:03:19.945
their kid in a non-coercive way, rather than[br]let them go to a school that was non-coercive?

1:03:19.945,1:03:24.360
John: Well, if you're a homeschooling[br]parent and there was in your area a

1:03:24.360,1:03:27.400
non-coercive school that kids could go to,

1:03:30.200,1:03:33.440
I would be ready to leave it up to[br]those children and those parents

1:03:33.440,1:03:35.840
to decide how much they wanted to make use of it.

1:03:35.840,1:03:40.120
Some families, the kids would[br]be there a lot of the time,

1:03:40.120,1:03:42.480
and other families, they might[br]not be there much of the time.

1:03:42.480,1:03:44.680
I think of my friends, the Wallaces in Ithaca,

1:03:48.080,1:03:51.720
their public school system, as[br]a matter of fact, said to them,

1:03:51.720,1:03:56.000
"You're free to come and use us anywhere[br]you want or anytime you want to."

1:03:56.000,1:03:58.720
In fact, there's nothing for the[br]public school for them to do there.

1:03:58.720,1:04:01.720
These are, by now, two extraordinarily[br]accomplished musicians,

1:04:01.720,1:04:05.480
and they spent six, seven, eight,[br]nine, ten hours a day working on music.

1:04:05.480,1:04:07.440
What in the world are they going to do?

1:04:08.160,1:04:09.520
What has school got to offer them?

1:04:09.520,1:04:13.800
But if you were very interested in[br]the kinds of things that are likely

1:04:13.800,1:04:17.280
to be done at school, or something that[br]needed more people – let's say drama,

1:04:17.280,1:04:20.880
which is a hard thing to do in small groups –

1:04:20.880,1:04:29.720
well, then it might be very[br]interesting for you to.

1:04:29.720,1:04:33.480
So if these resources were there, we'd[br]say to people, children, their parents,

1:04:34.280,1:04:36.200
"Those of you who want to use[br]them a lot, use them a lot.

1:04:36.200,1:04:39.680
Those of you who want to use them[br]occasionally, use them occasionally.

1:04:39.680,1:04:45.040
I wouldn't try to make that decision for anybody.

1:04:45.040,1:04:51.240
I think most homeschoolers would be very[br]glad to have some kind of gathering resource.

1:04:51.240,1:04:55.080
One of the advantages of such a place[br]is that, of course, a gang of people can

1:04:56.360,1:05:00.880
get together and buy things which none of[br]them by themselves might be able to afford,

1:05:00.880,1:05:02.200
– make sufficient use of.

1:05:02.200,1:05:05.120
Well, they can do it now, but the[br]question is then, "Whose house is it at?"

1:05:05.880,1:05:07.400
There get to be problems like that.

1:05:08.120,1:05:12.960
If there is a central gathering and[br]meeting place, well that's all the handier.

1:05:12.960,1:05:19.200
Now, one of the reasons that I went from thinking[br]about alternative schools to thinking about

1:05:19.200,1:05:26.440
homeschooling is that most of the alternative[br]schools, in the sense that we're using it here –

1:05:26.440,1:05:28.680
I mean, the word has gotten so fuzzed up in the

1:05:28.680,1:05:32.200
public-education system that it[br]no longer has any real meaning.

1:05:32.200,1:05:34.840
Most of the true alternative[br]schools of the late '60s and

1:05:34.840,1:05:38.240
the early '70s have long since[br]gone, mostly for lack of money.

1:05:38.800,1:05:46.360
You know how hard a struggle it is, even[br]with Sri Lankan wages. [inaudible]. [Laugha]

1:05:46.360,1:05:51.600
Even with those kinds of sacrifices,[br]very few schools were ingenious enough,

1:05:51.600,1:05:54.880
or resourceful, or lucky,[br]or whatever to keep going.

1:05:54.880,1:05:56.600
We had a gang up in the Boston area.

1:05:56.600,1:06:01.800
I don't think one – maybe one,[br]right? – they've all disappeared.

1:06:01.800,1:06:03.240
A lot of them were doing wonderful work.

1:06:03.240,1:06:09.320
So I began thinking, what can people do who

1:06:09.320,1:06:13.000
are not able to get one of these[br]places going and keep it together?

1:06:13.000,1:06:17.920
I suppose one of the things we have to learn is[br]how can we do this in a way that costs less money

1:06:17.920,1:06:23.680
without starving and not going into Ethiopian[br]wages, or something like that. [Laughter]

1:06:23.680,1:06:25.560
We don't want to do that.

1:06:27.320,1:06:29.840
All right, now I'm going to do a[br]little number thing with hands,

1:06:31.040,1:06:33.640
just so I don't forget, or so[br]we keep some kind of order.

1:06:33.640,1:06:34.720
Is it one here?

1:06:34.720,1:06:38.109
Did you all thought on – ?

1:06:38.109,1:06:38.160
Woman: I'm going to ask a question.[br]John: All right.

1:06:38.160,1:06:38.920
You'll be number one.

1:06:38.920,1:06:42.000
And the second – all right, second here.

1:06:42.000,1:06:43.520
Third here.

1:06:43.520,1:06:44.520
Fourth.

1:06:44.520,1:06:47.840
Lady in the red dress shirt.

1:06:47.840,1:06:48.600
Okay.

1:06:49.720,1:06:50.320
All right.

1:06:50.320,1:06:55.880
Five.

1:06:55.880,1:06:57.640
Okay.[br]Now, you have to remember.

1:06:57.640,1:06:58.320
Six?

1:06:58.320,1:06:58.600
Okay.

1:06:58.600,1:07:02.500
You have to remember your numbers, and you[br]have to remember where I am in the numbers,

1:07:02.500,1:07:06.310
because I'm not going to remember[br]either of those things. [Laughter]

1:07:06.310,1:07:09.560
All right.[br]{I have quite –}

1:07:09.560,1:07:10.269
Yes.

1:07:10.269,1:07:12.080
Woman: I'm number one.

1:07:12.080,1:07:18.194
If our children are most interested in the[br]things that we are most interested in –

1:07:18.194,1:07:19.060
John: They aren't hearing you.

1:07:19.060,1:07:19.940
Woman: They're not hearing?

1:07:19.940,1:07:21.913
John: No way in the world. [Laughter]

1:07:21.913,1:07:22.540
Woman: Okay.

1:07:22.540,1:07:24.240
John: Got to sing out.

1:07:24.240,1:07:24.840
Woman: Okay.

1:07:24.840,1:07:28.056
John: I mean, it is possible.

1:07:28.056,1:07:29.520
Second Woman: There are a lot of people here.

1:07:29.520,1:07:33.880
Woman: If our children are most interested[br]in the things that we are most interested in,

1:07:33.880,1:07:38.674
are we not then as homeschoolers[br]rearing lopsided children? And –

1:07:38.674,1:07:40.222
John: Everybody's lopsided.

1:07:40.222,1:07:41.000
Woman: Okay.[br]John: I'm lopsided.

1:07:41.000,1:07:41.680
You're lopsided.

1:07:41.680,1:07:45.113
All God's children are lopsided. [Laughter]

1:07:45.113,1:07:46.600
Woman: And will they fill out?

1:07:46.600,1:07:47.880
John: Yeah.

1:07:47.880,1:07:48.360
Woman: Okay.

1:07:48.360,1:07:49.680
John: That doesn't mean to say they're going to

1:07:49.680,1:07:52.960
wind up knowing everything about[br]everything, because nobody does.

1:07:52.960,1:07:55.120
But your life is not just you.

1:07:55.120,1:07:55.960
You've got friends.

1:07:55.960,1:07:56.640
They come here.

1:07:56.640,1:07:57.360
You know people.

1:07:57.360,1:07:59.280
They have interests.

1:07:59.800,1:08:03.600
The child lives in a kind of bunch[br]of concentric circles of family,

1:08:03.600,1:08:10.280
and then larger family, and close friends[br]of family, and neighbors, streets.

1:08:10.280,1:08:13.520
And this world, as I say, has[br]many different layers in it.

1:08:13.520,1:08:19.960
And some of your children may meet people[br]who happen to be very interested in things

1:08:19.960,1:08:23.080
that you're not much interested in,[br]and they may pick up that interest.

1:08:23.080,1:08:25.040
That's okay.

1:08:25.040,1:08:29.120
As long as – as I say, as long[br]as – as far as we're able to,

1:08:29.120,1:08:33.920
we make it possible for children to move into[br]the world in whatever ways they want to do it,

1:08:33.920,1:08:35.120
they're going to find enough there.

1:08:35.120,1:08:37.160
Nobody's going to die of starvation.

1:08:37.160,1:08:39.480
I don't care whether you live on an isolated farm,

1:08:39.480,1:08:42.920
or this sterile suburb that[br]everybody loves to talk about,

1:08:42.920,1:08:50.240
or the wicked big city that I live in, the[br]fact is that human life, as people live it,

1:08:50.240,1:08:56.080
has got more than enough food for thought[br]for children to bite into and to grow.

1:08:56.080,1:09:04.120
As they feel the need of more, they're going[br]to know more about where to go to look for it.

1:09:04.120,1:09:04.480
All right.

1:09:04.480,1:09:07.000
Now, let's see, two?

1:09:07.000,1:09:12.630
Woman: May I just say to my friends[br]here that wait until they get married.

1:09:12.630,1:09:13.020
John: The children.

1:09:13.020,1:09:15.000
Woman: Right, then their lives will widen up.

1:09:15.000,1:09:17.120
I just had – our first just did.

1:09:17.120,1:09:19.640
I'm still at homeschooling with a six-year-old.

1:09:19.640,1:09:20.800
I just want to thank you, John,

1:09:20.800,1:09:24.200
from my heart for having helped us very much here.

1:09:24.200,1:09:25.720
And I don't have a question.

1:09:25.720,1:09:29.680
But I wanted to tell you that today my[br]sister-in-law had to hang up the phone

1:09:29.680,1:09:34.080
in order to go across the street[br]to walk her third-grader home

1:09:34.080,1:09:38.280
because she has been molested[br]within 400 feet of her own home.

1:09:38.280,1:09:42.240
And this doesn't even state how I feel[br]about the fact that they're not learning

1:09:42.240,1:09:48.040
going to these places that are supposed to[br]be teaching – or pouring it in, as you say.

1:09:48.600,1:09:53.560
I don't think that we have to defend ourselves[br]any more than if you're walking down the street

1:09:53.560,1:09:55.400
and someone starts to kill you,

1:09:55.400,1:09:59.960
because I believe taking my children out of[br]the public school system saved their lives,

1:09:59.960,1:10:05.200
not to speak morally, religiously,[br]mentally – every way possible.

1:10:05.200,1:10:11.480
And I appreciated the story in GWS about the[br]little girl who was diagnosed as terminally ill

1:10:11.480,1:10:18.160
because this was worth all pennies I[br]paid the pink wage we pay you for GWS.

1:10:18.160,1:10:25.354
Thank you, John, very much. [Applause]

1:10:25.354,1:10:25.480
John: You're very welcome. [Applause]

1:10:25.480,1:10:27.920
We had an interesting story[br]in the Globe the other day.

1:10:29.440,1:10:30.520
I cut out the clipping.

1:10:30.520,1:10:33.600
We always have about three times[br]as much stuff to print in GWS as

1:10:33.600,1:10:37.400
we ever have room to print, which is frustrating.

1:10:37.400,1:10:46.720
This was about a young man, he's now[br]18, and he was autistic, which is,

1:10:46.720,1:10:52.560
to this day by the supposed[br]official experts, called incurable.

1:10:52.560,1:10:54.800
Autistic, retarded, they're not the same thing.

1:10:54.800,1:10:58.475
I mean, he just had a whole bunch[br]of these labels stuck on him.

1:10:58.475,1:11:01.560
It's just hopeless –[br]"vegetable,"institutionalized."

1:11:01.560,1:11:05.800
If you can get him in and out of the bathroom,[br]that's probably as much as you can do.

1:11:08.000,1:11:13.040
And somebody got interested in this[br]boy when he was seven or eight,

1:11:13.040,1:11:18.240
and noticed that he seemed pretty[br]energetic and lively, and liked moving,

1:11:18.240,1:11:24.080
and they got him started[br]running – and running distances.

1:11:25.800,1:11:29.920
Took him on long runs or this, that, the other[br]– and they got him into this running world.

1:11:29.920,1:11:32.280
The boy's now 18, I think.

1:11:32.280,1:11:33.640
I don't remember whether this was because he

1:11:33.640,1:11:36.080
was getting ready to run in[br]the Boston Marathon or not.

1:11:36.080,1:11:38.560
But at any rate, he's become[br]an extremely good runner.

1:11:39.760,1:11:47.960
Incidentally, he has not caught up with his age,[br]but he talks intelligently and intelligibly,

1:11:47.960,1:11:50.120
reads, I don't know, something[br]on a 6th, 7th grade level.

1:11:50.120,1:11:51.280
But all this is going up.

1:11:52.480,1:11:55.960
He's become a fully-functioning human being –

1:11:55.960,1:12:02.600
because he was allowed and helped to do the[br]things that he liked best. {I mean, that's –}

1:12:02.600,1:12:05.240
People grow through their[br]strengths, not their weaknesses.

1:12:05.240,1:12:10.840
One of the many simple truths, which the[br]giant educational, psychological, medical,

1:12:10.840,1:12:14.320
et cetera, institutions don't seem to[br]be able to learn is just that, that:

1:12:14.320,1:12:17.560
people learn by and grow through their strengths,

1:12:17.560,1:12:20.840
not by having people pound[br]away at their weaknesses.

1:12:20.840,1:12:26.160
Somebody had the wit and imagination to see[br]that this boy had a talent, a gift, a love,

1:12:26.160,1:12:32.680
something he wanted to do, and then all[br]this other stuff kind of went along with it.

1:12:32.680,1:12:37.836
Well, we know that, and they don't[br]know it out there, [Chuckles]

1:12:37.836,1:12:42.840
and it's going to be a long time[br]before they do – which is interesting.

1:12:42.840,1:12:44.400
Okay, now let's see.

1:12:44.400,1:12:45.880
Yes.

1:12:45.880,1:12:50.760
Woman: I have a lot of resentment[br]against my public school education

1:12:50.760,1:12:54.000
and further education here at[br]the University of Michigan,

1:12:54.000,1:12:58.680
although I learned, as you said, to play[br]the games very well and got good grades,

1:12:58.680,1:13:04.240
but felt that I didn't develop a lot of interest,[br]because I was too busy playing the games.

1:13:04.240,1:13:09.560
But I wondered how you'd answer the[br]question, if I hear you correctly,

1:13:09.560,1:13:14.240
that you allow a child to[br]choose what he wants to learn.

1:13:14.240,1:13:20.200
I can't imagine how a person would ever[br]choose to learn things like trigonometry

1:13:20.200,1:13:23.600
or things that they say maybe[br]later that you're going to need.

1:13:23.600,1:13:26.880
John: Well, you will need[br]trigonometry if you're a surveyor,

1:13:26.880,1:13:29.560
in no other place [inaudible].{And that's}

1:13:29.560,1:13:30.380
I'm glad you picked that.

1:13:30.380,1:13:33.924
Woman: Well, I didn't take trigonometry,[br]but the algebra I've used, for example.

1:13:33.924,1:13:33.953
John: Now, now [inaudible –

1:13:33.953,1:13:36.760
Woman: I didn't enjoy learning[br]it, but I've used it a lot.

1:13:36.760,1:13:37.400
John: Okay.

1:13:37.400,1:13:41.240
Well, if you had not learned it, and[br]if you got to a place in life where

1:13:41.240,1:13:45.040
you needed it to do something you wanted to[br]do, then you would learn it very quickly.

1:13:45.040,1:13:46.200
It's no mystery.

1:13:46.200,1:13:47.080
It's not hidden.

1:13:47.080,1:13:48.753
The time to learn stuff is –

1:13:48.753,1:13:50.907
Woman: So you learn things when you need them,

1:13:50.907,1:13:53.222
not when the school system[br]says, "This is geometry year."

1:13:53.222,1:13:54.320
John: Right.[br]John: Right, right.

1:13:54.320,1:13:56.560
You learn things when you –

1:13:56.560,1:13:58.320
As a species, as a living creature,

1:13:58.320,1:14:02.840
we human beings are incredibly good[br]at learning stuff when we need to,

1:14:02.840,1:14:06.960
if we have not been convinced that[br]we're so stupid that we can't do it –

1:14:06.960,1:14:10.040
which, unfortunately, in a[br]great many places, does happen.

1:14:10.040,1:14:12.200
Man: I don't know who you're on right now,

1:14:12.200,1:14:15.080
but I just want to point out that[br]I'm enjoying learning algebra.

1:14:15.080,1:14:19.976
I'm alternatively educated.

1:14:19.976,1:14:20.880
Woman: [Inaudible][br]John: Good.

1:14:20.880,1:14:21.460
And thank you.

1:14:21.460,1:14:23.160
Woman: What kind of school are you in now?

1:14:23.160,1:14:28.440
Man: Well, actually, it's a public school, but[br]it's an attempt at being an alternative school.

1:14:28.440,1:14:31.360
And it's not as close as the[br]school I went to before it,

1:14:32.960,1:14:37.600
but it's closer than the standard public schools,

1:14:37.600,1:14:40.400
and it has the atmosphere[br]of an alternative school.

1:14:40.400,1:14:50.680
But many of our classes are[br]chosen, I mean, rather than –

1:14:50.680,1:14:53.640
Beyond the state requirements that[br]the public schools have to follow,

1:14:53.640,1:14:54.640
most of our classes are chosen.

1:14:54.640,1:14:59.040
Woman: Do you have friends in public[br]school, regular public school?

1:14:59.040,1:15:03.600
What I wonder is if you feel, in comparison,[br]that you're getting a far better education.

1:15:03.600,1:15:04.782
Man: Well, the --

1:15:04.782,1:15:05.100
Woman: Obviously, you do.

1:15:05.100,1:15:08.280
Man: I was in the public schools until 7th grade.

1:15:08.280,1:15:10.360
And 7th grade, I jumped around,

1:15:10.360,1:15:15.320
and it was because of just all sorts of[br]problems I was having in public schools.

1:15:15.320,1:15:16.040
[Inaudible]

1:15:18.560,1:15:24.960
Yeah, I think my education, since I've gone into[br]alternative schools, has been infinitely better.

1:15:24.960,1:15:25.520
John: Good.

1:15:25.520,1:15:27.280
Well, I'm glad to hear that.

1:15:27.280,1:15:33.240
But I do want to make clear, as far as[br]I'm concerned, I'm not trying to make,

1:15:33.240,1:15:36.600
never have tried to make a[br]distinction between public

1:15:36.600,1:15:39.040
and conventional private schools.;{One of them, }

1:15:39.040,1:15:46.960
If you remember "How Children Fail," you'll[br]remember that somewhere along in the book I wrote,

1:15:46.960,1:15:51.240
"School is a place where children[br]learn to be stupid." [Laughter]

1:15:51.240,1:15:53.720
Now, let me tell you about the[br]school about which I was writing.

1:15:53.720,1:15:59.480
I was not writing about some poor old[br]PS 111 in the middle of the downtown,

1:15:59.480,1:16:03.680
I was talking about an extremely exclusive,

1:16:03.680,1:16:07.400
high-powered, selective,[br]private elementary school,

1:16:07.400,1:16:09.600
one of the two or three outstanding such schools

1:16:09.600,1:16:12.480
in the whole Boston-Cambridge area –

1:16:12.480,1:16:16.640
the top of the top of the top of the top!

1:16:16.640,1:16:21.440
They had an admissions policy under[br]which a kid could not get into the school

1:16:21.440,1:16:24.520
if she or he did not have an IQ of 120.

1:16:24.520,1:16:27.120
That was the cut-off.

1:16:27.120,1:16:31.200
It was at that school that I wrote,

1:16:31.200,1:16:33.760
"School is a place where[br]children learn to be stupid."

1:16:33.760,1:16:36.680
So I'm not drawing a line – never have drawn it.

1:16:36.680,1:16:38.360
I'm not drawing it here saying,

1:16:38.360,1:16:42.640
"Ooh, look at all these terrible, rotten public[br]schools on one-sided. Ooh, look at these –"

1:16:42.640,1:16:48.200
What I was saying then is that what I came to[br]realize in that school with these kids is that

1:16:48.200,1:16:54.160
you cannot coerce learning or attempt to[br]coerce it without making people stupid –

1:16:54.160,1:16:57.960
without making them afraid,[br]shifty, evasive, clever tricksters.

1:16:57.960,1:17:01.960
Yeah, the cleverest tricksters,[br]they'll sail on to Harvard, MIT, Yale –

1:17:01.960,1:17:07.040
I did that game – dope out[br]the teacher, guess the exam.

1:17:07.040,1:17:09.680
Everybody knows how it goes.

1:17:09.680,1:17:12.840
And everybody who does it knows[br]that 90% of that stuff you throw

1:17:12.840,1:17:17.120
out just like dirty dishwater[br]as soon as the exam is passed.

1:17:17.120,1:17:20.960
How many people on any university[br]faculty could pass an exam –

1:17:20.960,1:17:28.440
other than, perhaps basic English reading[br]and writing – outside of their own specialty?

1:17:28.440,1:17:33.720
I mean, just very, very few – and they know it.

1:17:33.720,1:17:36.160
I mean, this idea that there's some great body

1:17:36.160,1:17:38.960
of knowledge which they all[br]share – it's just nonsense!

1:17:38.960,1:17:40.440
Never was true, not true now.

1:17:40.440,1:17:42.120
It's a fraud.

1:17:42.960,1:17:44.640
I mean, I have a lot of people say it sincerely.

1:17:44.640,1:17:46.960
I don't think they're lying[br]when they say it, but I mean,

1:17:46.960,1:17:49.440
it's a fraud because it's just not so!

1:17:49.440,1:17:53.880
Nobody remembers that stuff.

1:17:53.880,1:18:00.440
Harvard University, if you're taking[br]some big course, they announce an exam.

1:18:00.440,1:18:05.640
Some professor's going to have an exam in[br]his or her course, professor announces it.

1:18:05.640,1:18:10.280
"We will have such an exam on such and such a day,[br]and it will cover such and such and such a topic."

1:18:10.280,1:18:14.600
And then you spend a certain amount[br]of time discussing this in review.

1:18:14.600,1:18:17.160
Nobody springs surprise exams on their students

1:18:17.160,1:18:20.800
because they know perfectly[br]well what would happen.

1:18:20.800,1:18:24.815
No, it's a very –

1:18:24.815,1:18:25.840
All right.[br]I'll get out of that.

1:18:25.840,1:18:29.200
I'll go on all night. [Laughter]

1:18:29.200,1:18:31.360
Let's see, now, where are we at on numbers?

1:18:31.360,1:18:32.960
John: Yes.

1:18:32.960,1:18:36.971
Dorothy: I'm the 4th.

1:18:36.971,1:18:36.982
John: Good.

1:18:36.982,1:18:40.480
Dorothy: I'm help coordinate a[br]homeschooling support group in Chicago.

1:18:40.480,1:18:49.560
And I'm noticing more and more the split[br]that you have alluded to in homeschoolin

1:18:49.560,1:18:54.480
g as well between those who wish to[br]coerce learning and those who don't.

1:18:54.480,1:19:00.720
And those who do are very much[br]interested, as it happens in Illinois,

1:19:00.720,1:19:04.600
in keeping those of us who don't want to coerce in

1:19:04.600,1:19:09.960
a semblance of unity with[br]them vis-à-vis the state.

1:19:09.960,1:19:13.920
And it's becoming more and more[br]difficult, I think, for that to happen.

1:19:13.920,1:19:17.520
And I wonder if you would[br]comment on that, and also on –

1:19:17.520,1:19:20.720
There's a definite one-way[br]flow of energy happening

1:19:20.720,1:19:31.280
because those of us who do not wish to coerce give[br]support and assistance very often to those who do,

1:19:32.920,1:19:35.760
because they believe they[br]have the right to choose.

1:19:35.760,1:19:41.280
And those who wish to coerce really don't think[br]that the rest of us do have the right because,

1:19:41.280,1:19:43.480
"We're not doing it the right way, you see."

1:19:43.480,1:19:46.880
So, would you comment on that? {I don't – }

1:19:46.880,1:19:51.400
This is not a problem I want solved[br]because I don't see it being [inaudible]

1:19:51.400,1:19:52.948
John: That's good, because it's –

1:19:52.948,1:19:53.880
Dorothy: -- we're not going to do that.

1:19:53.880,1:19:56.720
But I would like a comment[br]from you, if you will, on that,

1:19:56.720,1:20:01.320
especially vis-à-vis legislation[br]and that sort of thing,

1:20:01.320,1:20:07.000
when our interests tend to be[br]moving further and further apart.

1:20:07.000,1:20:12.354
And what would you think we should[br]do in terms of strategies about this?

1:20:12.354,1:20:13.840
John: Thank you, Dorothy.

1:20:15.400,1:20:18.000
I first think of something a[br]friend of mine used to say.

1:20:18.520,1:20:23.973
"This isn't a problem, it's a predicament."

1:20:23.973,1:20:24.960
Dorothy: Right. [Laughter] {Problems are –}

1:20:24.960,1:20:29.560
John: The word "problem" kind of cooks[br]up in our mind the picture of something

1:20:29.560,1:20:32.880
which we could make go away if we could[br]just figure out the right thing to do.

1:20:33.440,1:20:38.280
Things like debt and taxes are predicaments,[br]and they're just part of reality.

1:20:38.280,1:20:41.680
Yeah, this is a part of reality,[br]and we are living with it,

1:20:41.680,1:20:46.840
and we're going to be living with it[br]as far in the future as I can see.

1:20:47.400,1:20:50.640
It doesn't trouble me that –

1:20:50.640,1:20:54.400
{I'm going to answer} – I'm going[br]to respond in several sections.

1:20:54.400,1:20:59.000
First place, I don't think it's a[br]cause for worry or concern or distress

1:20:59.000,1:21:05.740
that we may be helping people to get[br]rights which they would not help us to get.

1:21:05.740,1:21:09.954
Dorothy: I'm not worried about that.{I mean, if –}

1:21:09.954,1:21:13.640
John: Now, there's no reason in the[br]world not to work together with people

1:21:13.640,1:21:19.120
with whom we disagree about many things[br]on those things about which we agree.

1:21:19.120,1:21:25.160
Because when we improve the legislative situation,[br]then we've made things easier for all of us.

1:21:25.160,1:21:33.760
{And there are – the other thing I would have –}

1:21:33.760,1:21:39.360
Another thing I would have to[br]say is – well, first of all,

1:21:39.360,1:21:43.820
a lot of the people who begin as[br]coercive homeschoolers change.

1:21:43.820,1:21:46.434
Dorothy: I've seen a lot of that [inaudible].

1:21:46.434,1:21:51.640
John: Their children teach them [laughter][br]about how learning really works.

1:21:51.640,1:21:55.520
And if – and this is very, very[br]often true – if they care enough

1:21:55.520,1:21:58.880
about their children to pay[br]attention to their feelings

1:21:58.880,1:22:04.640
and pick up these messages, they become educated,

1:22:04.640,1:22:11.320
and they become less and less[br]coercive – minimally coercive.

1:22:11.320,1:22:13.840
My experience is that the people[br]who do not make that change

1:22:13.840,1:22:17.280
don't stay in homeschooling very long.

1:22:17.280,1:22:21.360
That is, people who – whether[br]for reasons religious or other,

1:22:21.360,1:22:24.680
believe in high-pressure coercion,

1:22:24.680,1:22:27.880
soon find ways to get together with[br]other people who feel the same way

1:22:27.880,1:22:30.000
and they start some kind of coercive school.

1:22:30.000,1:22:34.600
I don't think you're very likely[br]to find people doing coercive

1:22:34.600,1:22:37.720
homeschooling for four or five years in a row.

1:22:37.720,1:22:39.480
I mean, their children would hit the road,

1:22:39.480,1:22:47.156
if nothing else happened.[br][Laughter] {So, I'm perfectly –}

1:22:47.156,1:22:53.920
I'm untroubled by having people start in[br]a position which is very far from my own,

1:22:53.920,1:22:55.760
partly because I believe people should have the

1:22:55.760,1:22:58.640
right to do this however they want to[br]do it, not just if they agree with me,

1:22:58.640,1:23:01.400
and partly because I have a[br]lot of confidence, as I say,

1:23:01.400,1:23:05.800
that they will learn from their children,[br]that they will move away from coercion.

1:23:05.800,1:23:11.760
As I have said at teachers' colleges, one[br]reason homeschooling works well in practice

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is that the home is an absolutely splendid[br]teacher-training institution. [Laughter]

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The numbers are small enough so you can really[br]hear the messages that your children are sending.

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And you're in a position where, if you[br]choose to, you can learn from them.

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When I first discovered, as a[br]fifth-grade classroom teacher,

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that a lot of children were so scared[br]of the weekly arithmetic test

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that they couldn't think about[br]arithmetic, I stopped giving the tests.

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And it wasn't more than about two weeks before the

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school administration told me that[br]I had to start giving them again,

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and they fired me at the end of the year.

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So I was not in a position[br]to do what my conscience and

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intelligence and instincts[br]told me needed to be done.

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Parents aren't in that position.

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"You can start with a little desk,

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an American flag, a schedule on[br]the blackboard and – [Laughter]

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But the day you find out it[br]isn't working, you can say,

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"We're going to do something different."

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You have that freedom to move very, very –

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[End of recording]