1
00:00:00,662 --> 00:00:02,920
Introducer: ... John Holt's work.

2
00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:05,720
I'm sure that you have
read "How Children Learn,"

3
00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:07,840
"How Children Fail,"
"Teach Your Own."

4
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,040
You may have had
an opportunity to see,

5
00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:15,040
lots of times on tour, him talking
on television or on the radio,

6
00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:22,280
John Holt, who's probably the best-known,
most vocal commentator on unschooling,

7
00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:26,760
and particularly home-based education,
in the country right now.

8
00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,160
Also, I understand he's
a magnificent cello player.

9
00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:34,480
So maybe some germane questions about
that would be refreshing and useful, as well.

10
00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:36,269
Here's John Holt.

11
00:00:36,269 --> 00:00:42,849
[Applause]

12
00:00:43,919 --> 00:00:45,180
John Holt: Well,
thanks very much.

13
00:00:45,180 --> 00:00:49,360
First of all, we have to delete
that "magnificent" part. [Laughter]

14
00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,660
Someday maybe,
but not yet.

15
00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:55,741
How many people
still remember

16
00:00:55,741 --> 00:00:58,882
those instructions
about how to get to this – ?

17
00:00:59,772 --> 00:01:02,960
We'll have a run through again
after the meeting, I think.

18
00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:13,280
We were talking about parking,
and something popped into my head.

19
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:18,360
I was tempted to interrupt and say it,
but I didn't, but I'll say it now.

20
00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,350
What popped in was,
"Parking is such sweet sorrow."

21
00:01:22,350 --> 00:01:25,210
[Laughter]

22
00:01:30,050 --> 00:01:32,570
Well, thank you for coming.
Thank you for inviting me.

23
00:01:32,570 --> 00:01:34,003
It's nice to be here.

24
00:01:34,610 --> 00:01:41,090
I said I was surprised to see,
among a number of good friends of mine,

25
00:01:41,090 --> 00:01:43,550
a friend that I really didn't
expect to see here.

26
00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:47,770
And I think
he probably wins

27
00:01:47,770 --> 00:01:50,880
the long-distance attendance
record for this meeting.

28
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,600
Now, I'm John Holt from Boston,

29
00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,560
but I'd like you to see
John Boston from Escondido,

30
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,360
which happens to be
near San Diego.

31
00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,160
I couldn't believe he was
here for this meeting.

32
00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,693
Just wave your hand or say hi.
[Laughter]

33
00:02:04,693 --> 00:02:08,729
John Boston: Hi.
[Applause]

34
00:02:15,349 --> 00:02:18,360
John: I want to talk about
a number of things tonight.

35
00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:25,040
And first of all though,
I'm probably saying things

36
00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,640
that you've heard me
say before or read.

37
00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:33,680
Now, this young man has the right idea
about how to dress for this meeting.

38
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:35,170
[Laughter]

39
00:02:38,050 --> 00:02:40,650
Oh, but I guess,
even before I get into

40
00:02:40,650 --> 00:02:44,200
what you might call
the body of this formal address,

41
00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:49,600
I want to ask just a few questions
to locate the audience.

42
00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,720
And perhaps one way to start
would be by saying,

43
00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,880
how many of you – I'm asking here
for a "show of hands" response.

44
00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,239
I wonder if we could
remove that rattle.

45
00:03:02,239 --> 00:03:04,250
Woman: Sure.
John: Thank you.

46
00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:09,880
Experience has taught me
the good things to bring with little kids,

47
00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,680
and I love to bring bags of it –
get it all out. [Laughter]

48
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:19,710
This young man is divesting himself
of his coveralls. [Laughter]

49
00:03:21,820 --> 00:03:23,170
I think, very smart.

50
00:03:26,230 --> 00:03:31,960
Now, how many of you
are working with,

51
00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,800
in one capacity or another,
alternative schools?

52
00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,520
All right.
Thank you very much.

53
00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,560
And another question.

54
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,860
How many of you are now
parents of school-aged kids?

55
00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:48,400
Good.
All right.

56
00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,840
How many of
those of you

57
00:03:52,840 --> 00:04:00,140
who are parents of school-aged kids
are sending them to alternative schools?

58
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,080
All right.

59
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,050
How many of you
are teaching them at home?

60
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:08,267
Big crowd.

61
00:04:09,860 --> 00:04:15,680
Now, this next one
will be for those of you

62
00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,520
who are parents of children
who are not yet of school age

63
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,940
or expect soon to be
parents of very young children.

64
00:04:23,940 --> 00:04:27,440
How many of you are
seriously considering

65
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:32,090
the idea of, I'd say,
teaching them at home?

66
00:04:33,220 --> 00:04:33,970
All right.

67
00:04:33,970 --> 00:04:36,560
And how many of you
are seriously considering

68
00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,150
sending them to
an alternative school

69
00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:41,440
if there's one near you
that was within reach?

70
00:04:43,100 --> 00:04:44,800
Okay, good.

71
00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,680
How many of you are teaching 
or otherwise working with –

72
00:04:56,280 --> 00:05:02,160
– with public schools
or colleges or universities,

73
00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,730
let's say, in one
capacity or another?

74
00:05:05,290 --> 00:05:08,040
Okay, thank you very much.

75
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:09,320
The grandparent question.

76
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:15,000
How many of you
are grandparents of homeschooled or –

77
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,050
Good! –
alternative-schooled children?

78
00:05:19,050 --> 00:05:19,770
Okay.

79
00:05:19,770 --> 00:05:24,220
Grandparents are a very
important ingredient in this situation.

80
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:34,409
There are homeschoolers who are
having just about as much with –

81
00:05:34,409 --> 00:05:35,868
Small child: Hi.
John: Hi.

82
00:05:35,868 --> 00:05:37,327
How are you doing?

83
00:05:39,892 --> 00:05:42,007
Child: Hi. Hi.
John: Hi.

84
00:05:43,327 --> 00:05:44,930
The famous Jimmy Durante said:

85
00:05:44,930 --> 00:05:49,070
"Everybody's trying to
get into the act!" [Laughter]

86
00:05:50,190 --> 00:05:53,240
There are folks who are having
about as much trouble with grandparents

87
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,210
as they are with superintendents.
[Laughter]

88
00:05:56,210 --> 00:06:00,760
So, it's extremely important to have
friendly and supportive grandparents

89
00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,750
in this alternative-education movement.

90
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,720
Well, let me sum up
in a very few words

91
00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:13,350
what I have been
saying and writing

92
00:06:13,350 --> 00:06:19,440
about children and learning now
for going on 25 years or more.

93
00:06:19,890 --> 00:06:23,440
As a result of my experiences,

94
00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:29,080
first of all as a classroom teacher
working in just about every grade,

95
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,500
sometimes, say,
K through G.

96
00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,240
I did a little college and
graduate school teaching –

97
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:37,470
not very much.

98
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,680
K through 12 might be
a little more accurate.

99
00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,390
But as a result of,
on the one hand,

100
00:06:42,390 --> 00:06:48,000
working with children in
more or less conventional classrooms,

101
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,690
and on the other hand,
spending a lot of time

102
00:06:51,690 --> 00:06:54,160
with babies, infants,
little children –

103
00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:55,200
first my sisters',

104
00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,520
then the children of other people,
little children in nursery schools,

105
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:04,840
and since then, many children
of homeschooling parents –

106
00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:09,440
I came to understand something –
certainly to believe something

107
00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:18,280
about young human beings
of which I am more certain

108
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,640
than I am, I think,
about anything in the world –

109
00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:26,560
and that is
that children are,

110
00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,200
by nature and from birth,
or perhaps before birth –

111
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,920
though I have no testimony
to offer about that –

112
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,190
natural learning creatures.

113
00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,440
There is nothing
that they want more.

114
00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,880
They have a desire –
more than a desire, a passion –

115
00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,480
to find out
as much as they can,

116
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:54,040
to make as much sense as they can
of the world around them,

117
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,320
or as much of that world
as they experience,

118
00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,560
to become competent
and skillful in it,

119
00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,040
to do things in it,
to play a useful part in it.

120
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,510
This is a truly biological
instinct or drive.

121
00:08:06,510 --> 00:08:11,260
It is as strong as
or stronger –

122
00:08:14,110 --> 00:08:17,400
at least for children who
are not in famine condition –

123
00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,320
it is stronger than
the desire to eat.

124
00:08:21,260 --> 00:08:23,130
Those of you
who are mothers

125
00:08:23,130 --> 00:08:27,200
or attentive and observant fathers
of very young children

126
00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,750
will have seen this
happen many times,

127
00:08:30,750 --> 00:08:33,880
that a tiny infant,
babe in arms,

128
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,514
hungry with his
little stomach hurting –

129
00:08:36,514 --> 00:08:39,360
which is what happens
when they are hungry –

130
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:46,040
and eating, feeding, nursing,
will stop eating if something interesting happens.

131
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,280
If somebody comes into the room,
if there's a noise,

132
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,620
if there's some kind of
a change in the situation,

133
00:08:50,620 --> 00:08:52,800
this hungry little teeny creature

134
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:59,600
will stop eating and look around
to see what's going on.

135
00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:04,160
There is probably not a mother in the
world who hasn't seen this happen.

136
00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:09,600
And how we can persist in talking about
children not being interested in learning

137
00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,920
or needing to be taught to learn
or whatever it is,

138
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:17,420
is just absolutely beyond me.

139
00:09:17,420 --> 00:09:19,320
Anyway.

140
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,880
They are extremely good at this –

141
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,160
this learning, this
making sense of the world.

142
00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:36,120
They're much better at it than we are,
or than all but some microscopic fraction.

143
00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,920
If by some accident of
who knows what – science fiction –

144
00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,480
were all of us
to be dropped into,

145
00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,000
say, the interior of Japan
or some exotic part of the world

146
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,380
where nobody spoke
a word of English,

147
00:09:48,380 --> 00:09:52,840
where everybody was speaking some
language we had never heard of,

148
00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,720
it's no mystery to us
which of us here in the room

149
00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,400
would be talking
that language first –

150
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:01,640
the little guys would.

151
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,760
All of them
would be talking it.

152
00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:05,480
Most of them
talking it fairly soon.

153
00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,200
Most of us –
some of us – big ones –

154
00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,960
would be struggling along
in a kind of a halting way.

155
00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,160
And a lot of us would
never learn any of it.

156
00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:16,120
Many of us would
never know it.

157
00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:24,280
Just the problems of learning something
totally new without any assistance with it.

158
00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,320
No, they get it first.

159
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,320
But we all know that
when we think about it.

160
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:35,360
They're extremely
good at it.

161
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,880
Well, another way of saying
what I've come to believe

162
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:49,280
is that learning is not
the product of teaching.

163
00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:57,160
Very difficult for me as a paid teacher over
a number of years to get that into my thick head.

164
00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:02,280
I was very good at that whatever you call
that thing that goes on in classrooms.

165
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:07,600
I was probably a good example
of what's called a gifted teacher –

166
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:14,040
motivating, clever at devices,
good at explaining,

167
00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:15,400
all that stuff you're
supposed to do.

168
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:21,200
It took me a long time to figure out
that this was not doing anybody any good,

169
00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,800
and most people harm.

170
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,960
Very hard for us to give up
the picture of learning

171
00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:34,560
that it's like pouring something out of
a full container into an empty one.

172
00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:38,720
It's this assumption which lies at
the root of absolutely everything

173
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,720
that's done in schools and
under the name of education.

174
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,680
And it's a hundred percent wrong.

175
00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:48,360
I mean, not even 98% wrong –
a hundred percent wrong.

176
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,480
That is not what happens.

177
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:58,560
Learning is the product of the curiosity,
the interest, the enthusiasm, the activity,

178
00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:09,840
the ingenuity, the imagination,
the thinking power of the learner.

179
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,000
Now, there are things that outsiders,
whether grown-up or whatever,

180
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:20,400
can do to assist this process, and
I'll talk about them in just a few minutes.

181
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:27,760
But the work is
done by the learner.

182
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:36,680
These little people are not empty receptacles
into which knowledge is poured.

183
00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:39,800
They are not sponges
soaking up knowledge.

184
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:44,200
They are not little lamps to be lighted,
as somebody else likes to say.

185
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,120
They are not
any of these metaphors.

186
00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:53,160
They are, in the most strict and
literal sense of the word, scientists.

187
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:59,280
The things that they do to create knowledge out
of experience, which is what learning is,

188
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:04,840
are exactly the same as the things
that the people we think of as scientists

189
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,640
do in their laboratories.

190
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,040
When they do them, perhaps,
there are some differences.

191
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,300
They are probably
a good deal less self-conscious.

192
00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:16,920
A scientist will probably have a pretty
clear idea of what she or he is looking for,

193
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,960
whereas little kids
are not doing it in that way.

194
00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,480
Nevertheless, they
do the same things.

195
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,400
The first is they observe,
they take in data.

196
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,840
And the second is that
they wonder about it.

197
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:39,716
And the third is that they ask
themselves questions about it.

198
00:13:39,716 --> 00:13:41,040
The second and third
are pretty close.

199
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:47,880
And then, they begin to make up theories,
invent theories, maybe that the wind blows

200
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:56,840
because the trees are moving their branches,
which, on the face of it, is not a bad theory.

201
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,120
And then, they test these theories
with observation, maybe with questions,

202
00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:07,940
maybe with experiments, some of which we
may welcome and others of which we may not.

203
00:14:07,940 --> 00:14:13,880
In this connection, I think of the most
recent visit to my house of Anna van Doren,

204
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,800
of whom you may have read in
"Growing Without Schooling."

205
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,920
Anna's going to be four in June.

206
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,720
We were in the apartment.

207
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,520
Her mother and I were doing various kinds of work.

208
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,600
Her little guy seemed not to be
getting in any physical trouble.

209
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:33,840
And when the time came to leave, I have a door
with one of those push-button locks on it.

210
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:41,200
And as I was leaving, I reached in to push
the lock, and my thumb fell into a hole.

211
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,080
Well, this feels kind of funny.

212
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:49,840
And I looked, and the push lock wasn't
there, and it was sitting on the floor.

213
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,920
I said, "Anna, you've taken
the lock out of my doorknob!"

214
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:59,040
It took me about four or five minutes
to figure out how to get it back in.

215
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,680
Children tend to like to do experiments
right up into the point where no further

216
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,680
experimenting is possible, I guess you
could say, up to the disaster limit.

217
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:16,840
And it's very good on learning, but it's
sometimes tough on the lab. [Laughter]

218
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,480
So these experiments are not always
welcome, but nevertheless, they do them.

219
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:27,360
And then, as a result of what they find out, they
give up their theories, modify them, change them.

220
00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,960
Let's see.

221
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,720
Has the GWS gone out which talks about
my little friend Helen saying, "gocks?"

222
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,960
Or is that 44?

223
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:40,006
Maybe you haven't received it yet.
Woman: Yeah.

224
00:15:40,006 --> 00:15:40,320
Woman: It just arrived.
John : All right.

225
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,480
So here's Helen Vandoren.

226
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,080
Actually, her full name is
Helen Maria-Holt Vandoren.

227
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:50,600
I had two schools and one baby named after me.

228
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:58,955
One of the schools is defunct,
but the baby is fine. [Chuckles]

229
00:15:58,955 --> 00:16:00,920
[Laughter]
At any rate.

230
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:06,520
Helen has been, for some time,
using the word "gocks" to say socks.

231
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:08,600
And this is a mystery to us because she knows how

232
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,440
to say the sound "sss," and says
it in lots of other connections.

233
00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,240
Indeed, it was one of the first sounds she said,

234
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:20,520
and it had multiple meanings,
including that she wanted to nurse.

235
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:25,860
We simply could not imagine where
she got the idea of saying gocks.

236
00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:27,960
She never heard anybody say it, obviously.

237
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:28,600
No imitation.

238
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,360
Her sister had never said it.

239
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:38,720
If you think of the way sounds are produced in the
mouth and throat, S and G are not at all alike.

240
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,980
It's not a small difference.

241
00:16:42,980 --> 00:16:48,800
At any rate, she must have had some
kind of theory about why she wanted

242
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,800
to do it this way and not some
other way, and it was a theory.

243
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,920
Just the other day, oh, I think maybe not
more than about three or four days ago,

244
00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:03,400
we were all in the office, and it was time for the
Vandoren family to go home, which means rounding

245
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,840
up the kids' clothes, shoes, socks, putting
them on them – an operation you know well.

246
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,720
And we had Helen sitting on the floor
getting ready to put her socks on.

247
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:21,470
And she looked at them
thoughtfully, and said, "Zzzzocks.

248
00:17:21,470 --> 00:17:21,480
Zzzzocks."

249
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,480
I said to Mary, "Have you ever
heard her say that before?"

250
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,920
Mary said, "No, first time."

251
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,720
Well, I saw Mary just a couple of days
ago and said, "How is the 'zocks' going?"

252
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:32,840
Has she said "gocks" since?

253
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:33,680
"No," she said.

254
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,880
In fact, she's very quickly converted the
"zocks" to "socks," and that's what it is now.

255
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,520
Now, why that difference, which didn't
make any difference to her before,

256
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,800
all of a sudden did make a
difference, I don't know,

257
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:50,200
you don't know, she doesn't know, we'll
never know – except everybody does it.

258
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:55,320
All of a sudden, whatever theory of language
it was that caused her to say "gocks," suddenly

259
00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:00,840
seemed unsatisfactory, didn't work,
didn't fit – so now she says "socks."

260
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:01,840
Well, okay.

261
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:07,480
A very small example which we
could multiply by the billions,

262
00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,160
and it's what these little people do.

263
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,960
They are observers, makers,
testers, changers of theories.

264
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:21,240
They are, in the strictest
sense of the word, scientists.

265
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:28,960
And, at least as far as learning goes, all they
ask is to be allowed to continue to do this.

266
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,400
Now, what we can do – I come back
to the point about what can adults

267
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:40,000
do to help? – because we are, in many
ways, an essential part of this process.

268
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,880
I don't claim children would
ever learn to figure out how

269
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,240
to talk if they were surrounded by deaf-mutes.

270
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:50,440
It wouldn't happen.

271
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:59,120
What we can do, what we do in our normal daily
lives before we start thinking about education

272
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:09,040
or coerced learning is we provide children with
– as much as we can – access to the world around

273
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:17,240
them – by which I mean not just places, places
that we go, places at the house, the kitchen,

274
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:22,120
the yard, the neighborhood, the stores, wherever
we go, but also the world of people, the world

275
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:32,720
of experience, actions, talk, materials, books,
records, tools, people doing things, human life.

276
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,200
Now, what we can do for these little
guys is to provide them with as much

277
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,440
as we reasonably can – I say reasonably –
I'm not saying you have to make your whole

278
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:48,360
life into a field trip – as we reasonably can
with access to our own lives as we lead them.

279
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:50,080
If you live in the woods, that means the woods.

280
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,800
If you live in downtown city, that means downtown.

281
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:59,960
I mean, wherever we live, whatever we do, as far
as we can, we open up that world to children –

282
00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:03,880
let them see it, let them be part of
it – and we answer their questions

283
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:05,960
when they have them – and they have lots of them.

284
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:11,507
Some of you will have discovered that
when your children are getting on --

285
00:20:11,507 --> 00:20:12,229
Small child: Hi.

286
00:20:12,229 --> 00:20:13,353
John: Oh, hi again.

287
00:20:13,353 --> 00:20:20,661
Child: Hi, hi.

288
00:20:20,661 --> 00:20:21,920
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Well, when they're getting on to a year

289
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,520
and a half, when they're beginning
to sneak up under – into speech –

290
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,680
It will be a place where they'll point to

291
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:33,076
all kinds of things and make some
kind of insistent noise: "Mmm mmm."

292
00:20:33,076 --> 00:20:38,240
The tendency for a lot of people is to think
that they're saying that they want that.

293
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,080
They point to the clock, they
point to this, and they go,

294
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,360
"Mmm mmm," and people say,
"No, you can't have it."

295
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:42,960
They don't want it.

296
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,720
They want to know what it's called.

297
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,760
They want to hear the name of it.

298
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:47,880
Simple as that.

299
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:48,460
I say simple.

300
00:20:48,460 --> 00:20:52,080
It took me quite a number of
years to figure it out. [Laughter]

301
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,840
So they ask questions – and we can
answer their questions when they

302
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:18,480
ask them – give help if and when it is
asked for, and not too much at a time,

303
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:23,000
and give a kind of demonstration just by
our being there and our doing things – give

304
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:28,520
the kind of demonstration of various
sorts of adult skill and competence,

305
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:37,640
and pay a kind of affectionate, respectful
attention to what they're doing, without making

306
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:45,920
some huge, big deal of it, and give them a kind of
moral support in this adventure of trying to make

307
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:52,600
sense of the world – and the best way to give
this moral support is, in fact, to trust them,

308
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:58,680
to understand that they are, indeed, passionately
eager to learn about the world, extremely good

309
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:05,360
at doing it, and will, in fact, do it
– in their own way, in their own time.

310
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:07,240
Not to say they're going to know
everything about everything,

311
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:13,320
but nobody does – and that's how we can help.

312
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:20,680
But ours is a very minor role,
and theirs is the major one.

313
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,320
Okay, well, I'm preaching to the
converted, I know. [Chuckles]

314
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,520
If you weren't already half convinced
of this, you wouldn't be here.

315
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:32,720
But I want to say it anyway.

316
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,280
All right, now, the next part of my
talk is about something different.

317
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,360
Much of this conference has to do with the future,

318
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:44,960
and I want to talk a little bit about the future
of homeschooling and the near-run future – the

319
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:54,360
next 10 years or so – and by extension,
to some degree, of alternative schools.

320
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:57,496
We are – from a legislative –

321
00:22:57,496 --> 00:22:58,440
[A woman comes forward.]
Yes?

322
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,922
Woman: Is it possible to ask you
questions before you go on to the next –?

323
00:23:00,921 --> 00:23:03,534
John: Yeah, yeah, sure.

324
00:23:03,535 --> 00:23:03,554
Woman: I see. Okay.

325
00:23:03,554 --> 00:23:06,000
John: Now, you don't have all
these electronics at your disposal,

326
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:22,563
so you've got to speak up – and not too fast.

327
00:23:22,563 --> 00:23:22,634
Woman: Okay, I don't have a loud
voice, I don't know whether it carries.

328
00:23:22,634 --> 00:23:22,663
You certainly are convincing.

329
00:23:22,663 --> 00:23:22,722
I agree with what you say that
we are not going to convince.

330
00:23:22,722 --> 00:23:22,800
On that part, that I'm going to disagree
in terms of people connected with you.

331
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:29,400
But I wonder what you have to say or
how you feel about what I believe is

332
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:35,120
a necessity to transmute this imperative.

333
00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:41,345
And this is perhaps something
that can be picked up.

334
00:23:41,345 --> 00:23:41,393
I agree children aren't all the same, God knows.

335
00:23:41,393 --> 00:23:53,459
But we also need, I think, some input in
terms of direction, guidance and exposure,

336
00:23:53,459 --> 00:23:53,514
and input in regard to the
heritage that is [inaudible].

337
00:23:53,514 --> 00:23:55,222
John: All right, that's a good question.

338
00:23:55,222 --> 00:23:56,520
Woman: Okay.
John: I'm familiar with it.

339
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:57,680
I've heard it.

340
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,160
I'd love to answer it, perhaps just take out very,

341
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,520
very briefly now, and we can go back
to it later and spend more time on it.

342
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,480
It's extremely important, in the first place,

343
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,640
in thinking about these things,
to use language accurately.

344
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:17,160
And we really have to understand the
difference between exposure and coercion.

345
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,240
Now, there's a big difference between putting –

346
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,240
I mean, we just went out to dinner.

347
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,240
The Baskins, and I and Heather,
we just had dinner together.

348
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,760
And there was the menu, and there were
things on different people's plates,

349
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,560
and we would say, "Here are some
capers in front of my veal."

350
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,600
And so we said to Heather,
"Would you like to try caper?"

351
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,520
Heather did not want to try a caper.

352
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,260
Well, that's exposure.

353
00:24:43,260 --> 00:24:46,880
There are different kinds of food there,
and we say, "Would you like to try some?"

354
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:47,320
"No."

355
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:47,840
"Okay."

356
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:48,040
"No."

357
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,760
That's not at all the same thing as putting some
capers in front of Heather and saying, "You can't

358
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,160
leave the table until you've eaten them,"
or, "You can't have any dessert," or holding

359
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:06,120
her by the nose and pushing one in, which is
exposure as it is practiced in formal education.

360
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:08,500
There's no exposure unless you can't say no to it.

361
00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:11,440
If you can't say no, it's coercion.

362
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,240
Really very, very, very important
to understand that difference,

363
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,800
and it's difficult, apparently.

364
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:24,120
Now, I'm just going to assert for the
moment that I am opposed to all forms

365
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:28,560
of coerced – or all attempts to coerce learning.

366
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,980
I meant to say after I had said
that learning is not the product of teaching,

367
00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:37,840
I meant to say that teaching which
has not been asked for by the learner –

368
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,240
virtually without exception –
impedes and prevents learning,

369
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:48,040
and before very long will kill
most of the desire for learning itself.

370
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:54,200
I will say that forced learning
is faked learning.

371
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,960
I had the great traditions of culture,
etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. –

372
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,520
by which I suppose we mean Shakespeare
or whatever – thrust at me.

373
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,520
I was clever about
playing the school game.

374
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:06,600
I could do that trick.

375
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,240
And so I got my A's and B's,

376
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,040
and went to high-powered
schools and colleges, and so forth.

377
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,240
Most of the people who are told
to play this trick cannot play it,

378
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:21,680
don't play it well,
fail to play it altogether.

379
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:23,440
We have to understand,

380
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,760
we're going to probably have
to agree to disagree about this,

381
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,400
because nobody is going to be –

382
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:33,040
nobody who walks into a room
believing in some kind of forced learning

383
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,480
is going to walk out of the room
not believing in it

384
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,440
because they've heard me preach
this little mini-sermon about it.

385
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,360
But I want you
to be very clear about –

386
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:43,200
And I should say, by the way,

387
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:51,840
that I suspect that the number of
homeschoolers or alternative school people

388
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,360
who really agree with me
is probably well under 50%.

389
00:26:56,360 --> 00:27:02,120
I mean, I think this is a minority view,
even among homeschoolers.

390
00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:10,480
You don't have to believe what I just said to
be a homeschooler or run an alternative school.

391
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,480
But I'm the one who's sitting up here
and that's what I think. [Laughter]

392
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,520
{I think - you see}

393
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:23,600
If it is part of the cultural tradition,
it is there.

394
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,760
Children are very interested
in what is there,

395
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,120
and they're extremely interested
in what is most interesting to us.

396
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:34,000
And Shakespeare
is not interesting to adults,

397
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:39,600
except a handful of English teachers
who make a specialty of teaching,

398
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,200
and a fairly small handful of actors

399
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,460
who every so often take a shot
at producing one of his plays.

400
00:27:45,460 --> 00:27:47,480
It usually loses money.

401
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,029
But other than that,
people don't read it.

402
00:27:52,029 --> 00:27:58,440
All right, I don't want to
go on too long [inaudible].

403
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,000
But what people really care about –
a good example is music.

404
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,920
There are not very many
households in the United States

405
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,360
where people read Shakespeare just
for the sheer, solid pleasure of doing it.

406
00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:12,360
They get this.

407
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:13,800
I've just been reading
some of the plays.

408
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,600
So, some of
the tragedies are lovely.

409
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:21,460
But I don't know anything in the world less
funny than Shakespeare trying to be funny.

410
00:28:21,460 --> 00:28:23,200
Mmm!

411
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,600
Maybe someday, some really bold soul will
cut out those ponderous exchanges of puns.

412
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,400
It will be a great day for
the Bard when that happens.

413
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,280
I mean, they rolled in the aisles when
he wrote this stuff, and he knew that.

414
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,840
He was a practical man in the theater.

415
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,720
He put it in because he knew
it would make people laugh.

416
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:45,400
It doesn't make people laugh anymore,
it just makes you turn the page.

417
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,920
But there are hundreds and
hundreds of thousands of families

418
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,920
where music is
a central part of their lives,

419
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,320
as it's a central part of mine,
and in those families,

420
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,040
very, very few children
are indifferent to music.

421
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:04,640
Or let's say gardening if gardening
is your passion – or whatever it may be.

422
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,960
Children can tell from what we do what sorts
of things make the most difference to us.

423
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,480
And those are the things,
generally speaking, that interest them most,

424
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,200
unless they've gotten into
some rebellion kick,

425
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,000
and that doesn't happen
much in homeschooling.

426
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,520
So I'll ask you to let me leave it
at that for the time being.

427
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,240
No, I do not think this body
of whatever it is,

428
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,760
or this cultural tradition,
or whatever it is, needs to be,

429
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:42,000
or indeed can be, forced into people
under pressure by coercion.

430
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,720
If you really love Shakespeare,

431
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,400
go see Shakespeare plays
where they're performed,

432
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,040
and take your kids with you,

433
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,760
or even get a bunch of people together
in your neighborhood and town,

434
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:56,480
and put on an amateur production,
and let your kids be part of the operation.

435
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,280
In fact, if you really love Shakespeare,
you ought to be doing it anyway –

436
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:02,240
or whatever it is.

437
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:03,640
If you love music,
make music.

438
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,280
If you love gardening,
grow a garden.

439
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,200
If you love camping in the woods,
go camping in the woods.

440
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,200
If you love –
I don't care what it is.

441
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:20,040
But children sense that the world they get
from the things that we care most about.

442
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,840
All right.

443
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:27,560
{Let me - } I don't mean by what I say to imply
that I've been sort of diverted or something.

444
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:28,280
{That's very -}

445
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,476
It's a very central issue,
and I'm glad you asked -

446
00:30:30,476 --> 00:30:35,320
I'm glad you
raised that point.

447
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,800
The homeschooling movement
is in the middle of

448
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,600
an extremely interesting
and important period

449
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:52,040
of political and legislative change –
and judicial, too, I would say.

450
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,400
Ten years ago, five years ago,
I think you could have said accurately

451
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,960
that the great majority of people
who were teaching their own kids,

452
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:05,680
and not just underground,
not just hiding out, were doing it -

453
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,640
were making use of
what you would have to call

454
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,400
loopholes in the law
of one kind or another.

455
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,600
Things which had been put in the law
not with homeschooling in mind,

456
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:20,080
but with something quite different.

457
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,200
In many places,
in many states around the country,

458
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,920
the compulsory school attendance laws
had some kind of a clause in them

459
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:33,160
about kids have to go to school or get some
equivalent kind of instruction or education.

460
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:38,760
Now, this clause was not put into the law
to make things easy for homeschoolers,

461
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,240
but to take care
of children who,

462
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,880
for mostly medical reasons,
were not able to go to school.

463
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,320
And they were probably thinking of
retarded or emotionally disturbed children

464
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,200
who couldn't go
to school because

465
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,320
the schools didn't want them,
or couldn't handle them.

466
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:57,560
So they wanted to make
some kind of legal alternative.

467
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,760
The farthest thing they could
have had from their minds,

468
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,680
the legislatures, when
they put these clauses in,

469
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,240
was that people who had
the choice of sending their kids to school,

470
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:11,640
people whose kids were,
as they say, normal,

471
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,480
would decide that they didn't
want to send them to school

472
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,320
so they could
teach them themselves.

473
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:16,960
Nevertheless, there was
that loophole.

474
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,600
And for a while, in lots of places,
people were slipping through.

475
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,680
The other great loophole
was the private school loophole

476
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,840
where many states in the country in which
private schools were not regulated by law

477
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,600
or not regulated by
the compulsory school attendance law –

478
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,800
Now, that was not done
to make homeschooling possible.

479
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,480
It was done for
quite other sorts of reasons.

480
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,160
When legislators decided that
private schools would not be regulated,

481
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:50,720
it was to a large degree because private
schools had their own police mechanisms,

482
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,720
they - what you would call a non-alternative
independent or private schools.

483
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,320
The rich folks' private schools have

484
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,120
their own National Association
of Independent Schools,

485
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,400
Midwestern Association of
Independent Schools –

486
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:04,352
New England –

487
00:33:04,352 --> 00:33:07,720
I mean, they have their own inspectors,
and their own checkers-uppers-on,

488
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,600
and so forth,
and so forth.

489
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,960
So, they were not sort of
flying free in the air.

490
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,480
Also, legislators, I think,
tend to operate on the assumption

491
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,920
that rich people know
what they're doing – you know?

492
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,000
They say, "Private schools are expensive,"

493
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,160
or at least they used to be
thought of that way,

494
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:37,400
and that's what legislators were thinking
when they decided not to try to regulate them.

495
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,360
And they said, "If you've got 50 or
a hundred fairly wealthy families,

496
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,840
and they're all
satisfied with the school,

497
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,080
chances are something
has got to be going on there.".

498
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:52,794
Rich people are not terribly innovative,
as a general rule. [Laughter]

499
00:33:52,794 --> 00:33:55,200
John: "And in any case, since they're rich,
even if their kids goof up,

500
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:56,840
they'll always be able to take care of them,

501
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,160
so we don't have to worry
about their being on welfare.

502
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:04,440
So generally speaking,
we can let them alone."

503
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,400
But the farthest thing in the world
they had in mind

504
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,280
was that this would be used in the way
that homeschoolers started to use it.

505
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,600
Well, that's where we were
roughly five or six years ago,

506
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,240
we were all happily crawling
under this fence, as it were,

507
00:34:19,240 --> 00:34:25,025
pulling up the barbed wire, and
slipping under the bottom strand

508
00:34:25,025 --> 00:34:26,920
[chuckles] – and it was
very nice while it lasted.

509
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,600
I mean, there was no regulation,
and no tests, and no papers to fill out.

510
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,840
Some states built
a one-page something or other

511
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:41,360
about "my home is a private school,"
and it was very nice,

512
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,320
but it perfectly obviously
wasn't going to last.

513
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,100
It was obvious to me
that it wasn't going to last.

514
00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:51,120
It could not be made to last –
that as we got bigger and stronger,

515
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,400
and got to be heard more
of in one thing or another,

516
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,120
that people, the courts,
the public schools themselves,

517
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,200
the legislatures were going to
begin to pay attention and say,

518
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:07,800
"Hey, what about this?

519
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:16,517
Well, roughly about two or three years ago,
we began to see – I say roughly –

520
00:35:16,517 --> 00:35:21,480
it differs rom state to state –
but we began to see the beginnings of attempts –

521
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,480
in some cases in the form of laws,

522
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,320
and in some cases in the form 
of administrative regulations –

523
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,877
attempts to make homeschooling illegal
or virtually impossible –

524
00:35:31,877 --> 00:35:38,680
in Maryland, and Georgia, and
in other states – for a while in California,

525
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,120
which had been one of
our chief homeschooling states –

526
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:48,880
the authorities began to try to think of
ways of making this very difficult.

527
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,840
And a couple of years ago,
we at Growing Without Schooling

528
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:59,340
certainly felt that the homeschooling movement
was in a kind of fight for its life.

529
00:35:59,340 --> 00:36:01,440
Well, I don't mean to say
that the fight isn't over,

530
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:07,520
but in fact, none of those attempts
to rule out homeschooling, stamp it out,

531
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,600
make it impossible,
none of them succeeded.

532
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:18,040
In no place has a legislature written a kind of
anti-homeschooling law in that sense.

533
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:26,600
We've been under lots of pressure,
lots of pressure to do so.

534
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:27,840
{What they did start doing is}

535
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:34,200
I should say a similar thing was happening
in the courts in a number of states

536
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,640
in which people had been homeschooling
through the private school option.

537
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,200
The courts began to say a home
all by itself can't be a private school.

538
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,920
That was our situation in Virginia
before the law was passed there.

539
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,720
So the loopholes
were being closed up.

540
00:36:48,720 --> 00:36:54,360
The fence was being repaired so that
animals couldn't get up through the bottom.

541
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:59,600
But at the same time, the legislatures
began to put some kind of a gate in the fence.

542
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,720
One way or another, they 
began to try to legitimize

543
00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:06,560
homeschooling, to make it 
explicitly legal, and say,

544
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:12,160
"Yes, people can teach their own kids
if they do this, that, or the other."

545
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,480
Since then, there've been a considerable number
of these kinds of laws passed.

546
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:17,400
I lose track.

547
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:22,880
In GWS 44, I think – in fact,
when we sent it to press,

548
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,120
we said there were 14 states
considering such laws.

549
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,080
I believe that since then,
at least three of them, maybe four –

550
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:34,760
Arkansas, Wyoming,
New Mexico, state of Washington –

551
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,680
we had a very tough time
in the state of Washington –

552
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:46,120
have passed one or another
kinds of legislation

553
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,120
making homeschooling explicitly legal
with this, that, or the other condition.

554
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,680
And we expect
many more states to do that.

555
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,600
We'll probably see more even before
the end of this legislative session.

556
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,000
And I would hazard a rough guess

557
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:03,360
that we'll continue to see half a dozen
or a dozen states a year doing this,

558
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,160
and dozens, perhaps,
to many a year.

559
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:14,200
And I would say that, oh, within five years,
we will probably see very few states

560
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:22,920
in which there is not some explicit reference
to homeschooling in the law.

561
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,600
Now, I consider this an extraordinarily
important move forward, even though,

562
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:33,320
in many cases, I'm not happy with
the qualifying restrictions.

563
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:40,480
Many of them talk about the use of
standardized achievement tests.

564
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,640
Though that is not a problem
for probably 80% of homeschoolers,

565
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,400
it can be
a very serious problem

566
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:53,800
for people whose children are late starters
in reading, or in whatever else it may be,

567
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,440
or happen not to like arithmetic,
or be a little afraid of it, or something.

568
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,440
And I think it's
a very important step forward

569
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:19,480
that legislators are beginning to see
homeschooling as a legitimate activity,

570
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:25,240
rather than some kind of
weird, strange, outlaw idea.

571
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:32,080
Now, what I think we have to do, along with
getting more of these kinds of laws passed –

572
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:40,440
and we'll probably be 10 or 15 years at it –
is educating the legislatures,

573
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,600
and particularly the individual legislators –

574
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:51,160
away from rigid curriculums,
standardized achievement tests,

575
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,840
all kinds of attempts to reduce
human beings to numbers.

576
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,400
I think a lot of them are ready
to say now, in fact,

577
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:02,880
"Well, yeah, people
can teach their own kids

578
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,680
if they do it just the way
the schools do it."

579
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,640
But that's obviously
not satisfactory.

580
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:11,560
But we have to get them to see –
in one way or another,

581
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,840
to get into law
at least some of the spirit

582
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,920
in which I talked to you
at the beginning of this meeting –

583
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:26,240
some feeling that there are other ways
besides the rigid curriculums of schools,

584
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:28,560
and the endless
little numerical tests.

585
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:33,200
There are other ways
of observing and taking note of learning,

586
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,300
of observing children's growth
in the world, and so forth.

587
00:40:36,300 --> 00:40:40,680
Now, this is already being done,
of course, in some places.

588
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:45,160
But I would like to see,
for example, something in the law,

589
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,960
some kind of amendment
somewhere down the line

590
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:54,040
saying that parents and educational authorities,
in evaluating the learning of children,

591
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:59,040
may use, but shall not be
required to use or restricted to using,

592
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,880
standardized and
other numerical tests.

593
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:09,760
I don't think very many legislatures would pass
such a resolution if we introduced it tomorrow.

594
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,840
But I think if we do
the right sorts of things,

595
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,000
that it's very possible that
a great many of them

596
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:22,600
will do so by, let's say,
a decade from now.

597
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,880
I speak of educating legislators,
and I'm not at all thinking of lobbying groups.

598
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,820
What I have in mind
is that homeschoolers –

599
00:41:29,820 --> 00:41:34,660
and also, again, insofar as
they are encumbered by the law –

600
00:41:34,660 --> 00:41:39,760
alternative schoolers must get to know
their own legislators personally,

601
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,320
individually, meet them,
go see them,

602
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,320
take their children,
become a kind of pen pal,

603
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,800
write them occasional letters saying,

604
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,160
"Thought you might be interested to hear
what my kids are up to recently.

605
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:53,800
The other day we went,

606
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,360
and my eight-year-old child
took 25 books out of the library,

607
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:04,240
which is more books than most school kids
read in a year, or two, or five."

608
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:12,160
We have got to begin to get into a kind of
continuing communication with these people,

609
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,360
so they begin to understand,
as we understand,

610
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,960
how this organic,
natural learning takes place.

611
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,720
And of course, if bad bills
get introduced, of course,

612
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:26,200
we all have to hustle down to
the state capitol and do that number –

613
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,520
and obviously,
we've been very good at it.

614
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:30,520
But that's not all.

615
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,760
I mean, "I don't write my legislator
except when some kind of legislation

616
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,520
is coming up that I'm worried about,"

617
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:38,040
this doesn't seem to me
to be enough.

618
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:42,840
I really think we have to try –
as far as we can –

619
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:47,640
we have to try to bring these people
into the homeschooling family –

620
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,520
and it is a family –
a collection of families.

621
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:58,480
So I see this as the main part

622
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:04,560
of the future of homeschooling
in the next decade or so.

623
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:08,480
I think alternative schools
can play a very important part in this –

624
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,840
as indeed the Clonlara School
and the Santa Fe Community School

625
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,080
and a number
of others already have –

626
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:21,080
by providing a kind of
support for homeschooling families.

627
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:24,713
I don't know if Santa Fe
was the first school to do that.

628
00:43:24,713 --> 00:43:27,120
It was the first one I knew about
that was doing it – but anyway.

629
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:36,080
And by now, we have a number of independent
alternative schools around the country,

630
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:41,920
which not only have
their own buildings and classes –

631
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,560
there's a physical school
there in place –

632
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:51,000
but they also provide a kind of legal and
educational support to homeschooling families.

633
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:55,320
Many of you might be on the
other end of the country.

634
00:43:55,320 --> 00:44:01,520
I would like to see a much larger network
of these kinds of schools.

635
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,840
We now have – oh, I guess around
the United States – several dozen.

636
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:11,600
But we'd be in a very much stronger position
if we had many hundreds of them.

637
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,840
Let's see here.

638
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:22,960
Excuse me a sec here.

639
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,040
Amazing machines here.

640
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,160
I think these small tape recorders –

641
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:34,080
and they now have really
quite astonishing sound quality –

642
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,000
are one of the great
educational tools of our time.

643
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:39,960
And for all the talk
about computers,

644
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,000
I think this is a gadget which has
many other kinds of possibilities,

645
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,320
which I don't think we have done
as much with as we might.

646
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:53,400
Like typewriters, this is a machine which
is really fascinating to a lot of children –

647
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:59,320
the experience of saying things into it
and then hearing them back –

648
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,040
very strange,
very powerful.

649
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,080
All right.
Now, let's see.

650
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,240
So, I was talking about
a very large network –

651
00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:18,120
hundreds, thousands –
of alternative schools,

652
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,832
independent schools around the country
– in some cases, public schools –

653
00:45:22,832 --> 00:45:25,720
because there are public schools
that also offer this kind of support.

654
00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:33,960
The number is not very large,
but it's also growing.

655
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:34,320
All right, now.

656
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:39,960
I want to switch to a different –
in the last part of this talk,

657
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,000
to a look at the future
in a quite different sense –

658
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,280
not the future of homeschooling,
or the future of alternative schooling,

659
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:53,760
but the future of the world –
particularly of this country.

660
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,480
First thing I have to say is that everybody
who talks about the future is guessing.

661
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:58,040
Nobody knows.

662
00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:58,800
There is no future.

663
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:00,080
It doesn't exist.

664
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:05,200
It isn't as if we're riding along
on a train and 20 miles down the track

665
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,120
there was a station
that we were going to pull into,

666
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,720
and it was just a matter of
talking about what it was.

667
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:12,240
The future isn't there.

668
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:20,680
We make it as we live.

669
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:21,480
{Most of the people}

670
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,520
I'm extremely skeptical, I have to say,

671
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,360
of most of the people
who are making a living –

672
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,200
and quite a lot of them are,
and they're living a lot fancier than I am –

673
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,200
talking about this future.

674
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,440
And mostly what they do is they find
some kind of a graph that goes up to 1985,

675
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,080
and then they just keep
running it up the page.

676
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,080
Well If predicting the future
were that easy, we'd all be billionaires,

677
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,360
because we'd just look at
the stock market quotations,

678
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,600
and see what stock had been going up
for the last week, and then buy it.

679
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:55,200
The problem is the graph
doesn't always keep going up.

680
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:59,800
There are an awful lot of high-powered people
in this country connected with the oil business,

681
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:04,000
connected with the government,
connected with the defense industry

682
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,320
who made it their business to know
what was going on in the world of oil.

683
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,780
And none – not one,
not a single one of these people –

684
00:47:11,780 --> 00:47:16,840
predicted what came to be called
the "oil crisis – when was it, ten years ago?

685
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,400
Nobody predicted it.

686
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,660
And nobody, with a few possible exceptions –

687
00:47:22,660 --> 00:47:25,600
maybe Amory Lovins,
maybe a few conservationists –

688
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,720
once we were in the middle of
that terrible crisis –

689
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:33,200
predicted that in five or less than 10 years
we were going to be out of it,

690
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:38,120
because we would smarten
up and start saving energy.

691
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:43,400
The oil crisis came by surprise
and went by surprise.

692
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,320
So, it's not easy.

693
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,473
One of the big future books that's –

694
00:47:49,473 --> 00:47:53,640
boy, I wish I had 10%
of the money that it's made –

695
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:58,480
talks about the Sun Belt
and the motion of industry,

696
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,160
the economic flight from
the North to the Sun Belt,

697
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:06,040
and it says this is a major
trend in American history,

698
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,000
and it's irreversible,
and it's going to continue.

699
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:09,760
We can just see more and
more of this happening.

700
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:13,080
Well, I get a certain
wry amusement out of this.

701
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,720
I come from the old Frost Belt
up there in New England,

702
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:20,791
and we are the most –
as regions go at the moment –

703
00:48:20,791 --> 00:48:23,760
probably the most
economically prosperous region of the country.

704
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:25,440
We have the lowest
unemployment rate.

705
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,480
My home state of Massachusetts has

706
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:32,360
the lowest unemployment rate 
in any industrial state.

707
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:36,980
My home city of Boston has
what they call an office vacancy rate of 1%.

708
00:48:36,980 --> 00:48:41,120
Of course, Houston
has about 30%.

709
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:47,280
So, the old Frost Belt
isn't doing too bad.

710
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,720
Right now what we're
worried about is drought.

711
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:56,000
But that's going to be
a big problem for the whole country.

712
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:56,920
Very, very hard.

713
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,080
But there are some indicators.

714
00:48:59,080 --> 00:48:59,880
Nothing is certain.

715
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,200
There are some indicators
that give us, I think,

716
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,840
a pretty strong indication of
the way some things are likely to go.

717
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:11,360
There are really big, big,
deep sort of trends,

718
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:15,280
and I want to talk about
just one of them tonight.

719
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:21,160
[Coughs] Excuse me.

720
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:31,320
The Boston Globe, our local bladder,
[laughter] is a kind of nice paper.

721
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:32,880
I don't know how much
news is in it,

722
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:34,040
but it has a lot
of good writers,

723
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:35,800
and they have
quite a lot of fun.

724
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:45,320
So, it's an entertaining sheet,
and not bad, as these things go.

725
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,320
It had an article
a year and a half ago, maybe,

726
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:53,920
about wages in different parts
of the world – industrial wages.

727
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:59,640
And there's a map,
a nice big-page article.

728
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,760
And they were comparing a
verage hourly industrial wages

729
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:09,080
in the world's manufacturing countries.

730
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,240
Now, economists, I guess,
could spend the whole weekend

731
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:14,040
talking about how you
achieve these figures,

732
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,000
and how you balance out
this versus that,

733
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,320
how you figure out benign climates
versus cold climates,

734
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,760
and what do you do
about fringe benefits,

735
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:22,720
and this, that,
and the other.

736
00:50:22,720 --> 00:50:26,640
And I'm going to accept those figures
more or less as they were given to me.

737
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:32,720
And what it said was that the United States
had the highest average hourly industrial wage.

738
00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:35,940
They didn't say what is
industrial and what isn't –

739
00:50:35,940 --> 00:50:37,560
not to get into that.

740
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,960
And it was something like
$10.77 an hour.

741
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,440
And there was Canada
pretty close behind,

742
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,200
and Switzerland, and then
a bunch of the Western European nations –

743
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:48,640
$8.00 or so – $7.50.

744
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,560
And then, Japan, $5.50.

745
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:58,880
And then Mexico, Brazil,
some down to the $2.00, $2.50 range.

746
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:03,200
And then we got down to
what they call the Pacific Rim nations:

747
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:10,560
Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea,
a couple of others maybe,

748
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:15,600
and these were running
$1.25, $1.50 an hour.

749
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,916
And then India –

750
00:51:17,916 --> 00:51:20,520
the figure they gave
was $0.39 an hour –

751
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,760
and Sri Lanka – which
us old cats used to call Ceylon –

752
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:28,960
near India –
was $0.21 an hour.

753
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:32,440
Now, those are very,

754
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,280
very, very significant figures
their legs will carry them –

755
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:42,160
At one point in the article,
they quoted a young woman

756
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,680
who's working in one of these
new electronic shops in Hong Kong

757
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,400
where the American
computer manufacturers

758
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,680
are fleeing just as fast as
their legs will carry them –

759
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,920
those that are still in
business at all, I should add.

760
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:01,800
And that little future balloon
went down in a big hurry,

761
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:06,120
and has yet further to go,
I will add.

762
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:10,960
That revolution lasted about
two or three years.

763
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:15,880
But someone was talking
to this young woman

764
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:22,720
who's earning $1.22 an hour,
making whatever it is,

765
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:26,320
and just happy as a clam
to be enjoying this wage

766
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,320
which was probably ten times,
five times higher

767
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,760
than anything they
had seen a decade before.

768
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:37,360
And she said, "Of course, we know
it's only going to be a matter of time

769
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:43,400
before the jobs all go
to someplace like Sri Lanka,

770
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:49,560
where they only have
to pay $0.21 an hour.

771
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:58,280
And the picture for me is of jobs as
a kind of great flock of migratory birds,

772
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:02,260
which fly from one place to another

773
00:53:02,260 --> 00:53:08,280
and settle down and deposit a certain
amount of wealth there while they're there,

774
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:09,840
but soon they'll take off again

775
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:13,560
l ooking for some other place
where the wages are even lower.

776
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,240
And that's not
a bad figure of speech.

777
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:18,920
We saw that happen in this country
when the northern industries –

778
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,400
this was certainly true of
the mills in New England –

779
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:27,400
went down south where they could get
non-union and cheaper labor.

780
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:35,000
With the modern mobility of capital
in the multinational corporation,

781
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,880
jobs do in fact tend to –
many of them anyway –

782
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,440
are pretty free to migrate
to where the wages are lowest,

783
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,340
and that's where
they're going to roost.

784
00:53:46,340 --> 00:53:52,280
Now, one of the things that struck me about that
article was that nothing was said about China.

785
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:53,260
And I found myself wondering,

786
00:53:53,260 --> 00:53:55,160
"Hey, where do the Chinese
fit into this picture?"

787
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:59,240
Why, they're probably under a dollar an hour,
$0.50 an hour maybe, I thought.

788
00:53:59,240 --> 00:54:03,080
At any rate, it had to be
a pretty low figure.

789
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:11,400
Under a billion people
in that country.

790
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:18,360
Recently, my question was answered
more or less reliably by another article,

791
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:23,640
this time in the "Christian Science Monitor,"
and this wasn't about economics at all,

792
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:26,120
it was about
a British rock group called "Wham,"

793
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:32,880
which has just gone to China and caused
a great upheaval of various kinds there.

794
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,640
But like all things Western, it's very popular
with the young people in the new China.

795
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:43,840
The article described a young Chinese workman
standing in line for five or six hours –

796
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:49,240
just like his American counterparts –
to buy a ticket to hear Wham.

797
00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:52,000
And it said in passing that he
had to pay – for this ticket –

798
00:54:52,000 --> 00:55:06,480
he had to pay 5 yuan –
parenthesis, $1.75 – or 2 days' wages.

799
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,840
Two days' wages.

800
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:18,560
If you figure an 8-hour day, we're talking about
just a little bit more than $0.10 an hour.

801
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:20,680
And there are
a billion people over there,

802
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:26,320
most of whom are ready and eager
to work at that kind of wage.

803
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:34,520
Now, this is bound to have a lot
to say about not only our future,

804
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:36,680
but the future of
all of what we think of

805
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:44,280
as the highly-developed wealthy countries
of the North Atlantic, let's say, community.

806
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:48,600
Given, again, the mobility of capital,

807
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:54,000
there is no possible way that the 
wealthy countries of the world

808
00:55:54,000 --> 00:56:02,940
are going to be able to employ
their populations at $10 or $9 or $8 or $7,

809
00:56:02,940 --> 00:56:06,480
or for that matter Japan,
$5.50 an hour.

810
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:11,080
They're not going to
be able to do it.

811
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,880
In other words, as nearly as
one can say anything about the future,

812
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,000
it is certain that
the rich countries of the world

813
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:26,240
are going to get a lot less rich,
as we have defined rich.

814
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:32,240
And what the consequences of that
may be, we've talked for a long time –

815
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:33,880
there could be
whole conferences –

816
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:37,600
I hope someday here will be
if there are not any yet –

817
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,760
about what this really means.

818
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:44,320
None of the people who were
running for election in the last campaign –

819
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,240
even those who talk
glibly about new ideas –

820
00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:51,400
none of them seem to have
the faintest idea that this is going on,

821
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,120
or what this means,
or what they might do with it.

822
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,240
This is going to call for
a lot of hard thinking.

823
00:56:56,240 --> 00:56:59,260
To say just a very
short thing about us,

824
00:56:59,260 --> 00:57:01,840
I'd say we're going to have to
rediscover thrift in this country.

825
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:10,960
We're going to have to discover that efficiency
is not the same thing as making a lot of stuff.

826
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,680
We're going to
have to rediscover –

827
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:16,880
learn how to do
the most with the least.

828
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:21,000
Old New England motto:
"Wear it out –"

829
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:21,640
Let's see, no.

830
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,760
"Use it up, wear it out,
make it do, do without" –

831
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,400
the old Yankee saying.

832
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:30,720
Or old Ben's,
"A penny saved is a penny earned."

833
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:32,480
We're going to rediscover
the truth of that.

834
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:38,040
We're going to start learning
how to darn socks again.

835
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:39,440
I don't think
that's a bad thing.

836
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:48,120
I think we'll be probably a very much better,
more interesting, more equitable country

837
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:55,240
if we learn to revise our ideas about
what is true wealth, what is true efficiency.

838
00:57:55,240 --> 00:58:00,480
But that's a big topic, and it's not really
the topic we've come here to discuss.{I just}

839
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,080
If we're going to be talking
or thinking about the future,

840
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:09,240
I think this is an element in it
that we can't afford to neglect.

841
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,400
Okay, well that's all
for the big formal speech,

842
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,680
if it struck you that way.

843
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:23,200
So now we can move into
some kind of questions, discussion,

844
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,840
comment on whatever
you want to talk about.

845
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:28,960
I mean, we can talk about
any of the things I've talked about,

846
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,440
or if you came here wanting
to talk about something else,

847
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:32,680
we can talk about that too,

848
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:34,800
unless I don't know
anything at all about it,

849
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,360
I will tell you.

850
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:39,840
I can tell you how to
begin on the cello.

851
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,800
I can't tell you how to become
a "magnificent" player.

852
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:50,880
Well, as soon as I learn,
I will tell you that.

853
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:52,160
Sir.

854
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:52,708
Jerry Mintz: Hi.

855
00:58:52,708 --> 00:58:53,464
Jerry Mintz from

856
00:58:53,464 --> 00:58:55,114
Shaker Mountain School in 
Vermont. {We can't hear you.}

857
00:58:55,114 --> 00:58:58,760
John: Oh, hi, Jerry.
{I just hope}

858
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,000
Jerry:One thing I was thinking
about is that you missed,

859
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,240
somewhere between
Ceylon and India,

860
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:10,279
the wages of
alternative school people.

861
00:59:10,279 --> 00:59:10,289
[Laughter]

862
00:59:10,289 --> 00:59:10,304
John: Yes. Yes.

863
00:59:10,304 --> 00:59:12,920
Jerry Mintz: It may mean that the industry
may flock to the free schools.

864
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,680
I'm not sure.
[Laughter]

865
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:21,840
One thing I was wondering about is
what you think the difference is

866
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:27,440
between parents who are
exposing their kids to education

867
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,560
or to learning
without coercion

868
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:34,320
and schools that are exposing
their kids to learning without coercion.

869
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:38,320
And our school doesn't require kids
to go to any particular classes.

870
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:40,240
And on the other
side of the coin,

871
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,240
the difference between parents
who are coercing their kids

872
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,260
and schools that are
coercing their kids.

873
00:59:46,260 --> 00:59:49,560
John: Well, the key difference
for me is the difference

874
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:52,360
between coercion
and non-coercion.

875
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:58,000
In other words, if I thought that
the homeschooling movement

876
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,760
was made up
largely or entirely

877
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:03,240
of people who wanted
to coerce their kids

878
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:05,760
and just thought they could do
a better job of it than schools could,

879
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:09,440
I wouldn't have spent
two minutes on this activity.

880
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,160
My interest in homeschooling,

881
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:12,840
and, for that matter,
alternative schooling –

882
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:14,760
and I was interested
in alternative schools

883
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:19,120
before I became
interested in homeschooling –

884
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:23,120
my interest in it is that
it makes it at least possible –

885
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:25,320
for those people who want
to give their children

886
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:29,600
a natural, organic, uncoerced
learning experience – to do so.

887
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,280
Not everybody is going
to use it that way.

888
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:37,120
People start schools
which they hope will be

889
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:39,920
even more coercive
than the schools that exist.

890
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:42,640
There are certainly some people
who teach their children

891
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:45,400
thinking that they can
pound in learning faster than

892
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,040
the local schools
were doing it.

893
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:48,960
I don't think many of them
stick it out very long

894
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:53,160
because they find out
it doesn't work.

895
01:00:56,560 --> 01:01:02,600
No, I mean, if I look
far enough down the line,

896
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:12,400
I like to think of schools as
learning-experiment activity centers,

897
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:14,480
somewhat analogous
to public libraries,

898
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,000
although rather
wider in scope,

899
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:20,240
places to which people can come
if they feel like coming,

900
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:22,320
to do the things
that they want to do

901
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,920
for as long as
they want to do them.

902
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:31,360
And {I kind of – } I would hope that
somewhere we would find a way

903
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:34,840
to call these places
something other than schools

904
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:37,160
because they're really
very fundamentally very different.

905
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:42,520
"Club" would be nice if we just
kind of dared to do it. [Laughter]

906
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:44,680
We have a film
that a friend of mine,

907
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:45,720
my friend Peggy Hughes,

908
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,320
made in Denmark
of the preschool there.

909
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,160
The film was called
"We Have to Call It School."

910
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,200
And the film begins with
this young Danish teacher

911
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,920
there saying in English,

912
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:00,120
"We have to call it school
because if we didn't,

913
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:01,720
they wouldn't let
the children come here."

914
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:03,680
[Laughter]

915
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,600
But it would be nice if,
in our minds,

916
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:12,560
we thought about these
non-coercive gathering-and-activity places

917
01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:15,080
as something
other than a school.

918
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:15,920
I like "club."

919
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,380
I mean, club has a –

920
01:02:18,380 --> 01:02:20,800
But you can pick
what word you like,

921
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,000
or invent a brand new one.

922
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:29,520
Ultimately, I suppose I'd like to see
all schools evolve this way.

923
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:32,640
I don't think, certainly
not in my lifetime,

924
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:34,880
and not in any future
that I can see,

925
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:38,160
can I imagine
legislatures striking

926
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:42,320
compulsory attendance laws
off the books.

927
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,640
But I can imagine
more and more schools

928
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:48,240
defining attendance
in just the way you define it,

929
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:51,640
so that the difference

930
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:53,880
between being in school
and not being in school

931
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:55,080
gets so fuzzed over

932
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:56,920
that you can't tell any longer

933
01:02:56,920 --> 01:03:02,040
when somebody is in
or when somebody is out.{now I don't}

934
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:03,240
Have I spoken
to your point,

935
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:05,140
or was there something other
you'd like to get out?

936
01:03:05,140 --> 01:03:07,560
Jerry: In other words,
do you consider

937
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,760
that it would be
advantageous for a parent

938
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:14,000
to homeschool their kid
in a non-coercive way,

939
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:19,945
rather than let them go to
a school that was non-coercive?

940
01:03:19,945 --> 01:03:21,480
John: Well, if you're
a homeschooling parent

941
01:03:21,480 --> 01:03:24,080
and there was
in your area

942
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,400
a non-coercive school
that kids could go to,

943
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:33,440
I would be ready to leave it up to
those children and those parents

944
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:35,840
to decide how much
they wanted to make use of it.

945
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:40,120
Some families, the kids
would be there a lot of the time,

946
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:42,480
and other families, they might
not be there much of the time.

947
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:44,680
I think of my friends,
the Wallaces in Ithaca,

948
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,720
their public school system,
as a matter of fact, said to them,

949
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:53,360
"You're free to
come and use us

950
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:56,000
anywhere you want
or anytime you want to."

951
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:56,960
In fact, there's nothing in

952
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:58,720
the public school
for them to do there.

953
01:03:58,720 --> 01:03:59,720
These are, by now,

954
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:01,720
two extraordinarily
accomplished musicians,

955
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:05,480
and they spent six, seven, eight,
nine, ten hours a day working on music.

956
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:07,440
What in the world
are they going to do?

957
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:09,520
What has school
got to offer them?

958
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,120
But if you were very interested in
the kinds of things

959
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:16,200
that are likely to be done at school,
or something that needed more people –

960
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:20,880
let's say drama, which is
a hard thing to do in small groups –

961
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:28,350
well, then it might be
very interesting for you to.

962
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:31,240
So if these resources were there,

963
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,280
we'd say to people,
children, their parents,

964
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:36,200
"Those of you who want to
use them a lot, use them a lot.

965
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:39,680
Those of you who want to use them
occasionally, use them occasionally.

966
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:43,150
I wouldn't try to make
that decision for anybody.

967
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:47,240
I think most homeschoolers
would be very glad

968
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,450
to have some kind of
gathering resource.

969
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:52,840
One of the advantages
of such a place

970
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:53,400
is that, of course,

971
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:57,800
a gang of people can
get together and buy things

972
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:00,880
which none of them by themselves
might be able to afford,

973
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:02,200
– make sufficient use of.

974
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:04,000
Well, they can do it now,
but the question is then,

975
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:05,120
"Whose house is it at?"

976
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:07,400
There get to be
problems like that.

977
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:11,280
If there is a central gathering
and meeting place,

978
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:12,960
well that's all the handier.

979
01:05:14,590 --> 01:05:16,960
Now, one of
the reasons that I went from

980
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:19,920
thinking about alternative schools
to thinking about homeschooling

981
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:26,440
is that most of the alternative schools,
in the sense that we're using it here –

982
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:28,360
I mean, the word has
gotten so fuzzed up

983
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:29,840
in the public-education system

984
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:32,200
that it no longer has
any real meaning.

985
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:35,720
Most of the true alternative schools
of the late '60s and the early '70s

986
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:38,240
have long since gone,
mostly for lack of money.

987
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:40,240
You know how hard
a struggle it is,

988
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:44,890
even with Sri Lankan wages.
[inaudible]. [Laugha]

989
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:48,480
Even with those
kinds of sacrifices,

990
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,600
very few schools
were ingenious enough,

991
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:54,880
or resourceful, or lucky,
or whatever to keep going.

992
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:56,600
We had a gang
up in the Boston area.

993
01:05:56,600 --> 01:06:00,960
I don't think one –
maybe one, right? –

994
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:01,800
they've all disappeared.

995
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:03,240
A lot of them were
doing wonderful work.

996
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:08,040
So I began thinking,
what can people do

997
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,320
who are not able to get
one of these places going

998
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:13,000
and keep it together?

999
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:15,040
I suppose one of the things
we have to learn is

1000
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,920
how can we do this
in a way that costs less money

1001
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:22,040
without starving and
not going into Ethiopian wages,

1002
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:23,680
or something like that.
[Laughter]

1003
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:24,960
We don't want
to do that.

1004
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,720
All right, now I'm going to do
a little number thing with hands,

1005
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:33,640
just so I don't forget,
or so we keep some kind of order.

1006
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:34,480
Is it one here?

1007
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:35,889
Did you all –? 
I thought so.

1008
01:06:35,889 --> 01:06:37,472
Woman: I'm going to
ask a question.

1009
01:06:37,472 --> 01:06:38,940
John: All right.
You'll be number one.

1010
01:06:38,940 --> 01:06:42,000
And the second?
All right, second here.

1011
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:43,670
Third here.

1012
01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:47,510
Fourth? 
Lady in the red dress shirt.

1013
01:06:47,510 --> 01:06:48,356
Okay.

1014
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:51,210
All right.
Five.

1015
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:57,640
Okay.
Now, you have to remember.

1016
01:06:57,640 --> 01:06:58,600
Six?
Okay.

1017
01:06:58,600 --> 01:07:00,280
You have to
remember your numbers,

1018
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:02,500
and you have to remember
where I am in the numbers,

1019
01:07:02,500 --> 01:07:06,310
because I'm not going to remember
either of those things! [Laughter]

1020
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:10,269
Yes.

1021
01:07:10,269 --> 01:07:12,080
Woman: I'm number one.

1022
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:14,400
If our children
are most interested in

1023
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,124
the things that we
are most interested in –

1024
01:07:18,044 --> 01:07:19,480
John: They aren't hearing you.

1025
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:21,437
Woman: They're not hearing?
John: No way in the world.

1026
01:07:21,437 --> 01:07:22,540
[Laughter]
Woman: Okay.

1027
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:24,840
John: Got to sing out.
Woman: Okay.

1028
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:26,487
John: I mean, it is possible.

1029
01:07:26,487 --> 01:07:29,520
Woman: [Laughs]
There are a lot of people here.

1030
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:31,390
Woman: If our children
are most interested

1031
01:07:31,390 --> 01:07:33,880
in the things that
we are most interested in,

1032
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:38,464
are we not then as homeschoolers
rearing lopsided children? And –

1033
01:07:38,464 --> 01:07:40,334
John: Everybody's lopsided.
Woman: Okay.

1034
01:07:40,334 --> 01:07:42,020
John: I'm lopsided.
You're lopsided.

1035
01:07:42,020 --> 01:07:45,113
All God's children
are lopsided. [Laughter]

1036
01:07:45,113 --> 01:07:46,600
Woman: And will they fill out?

1037
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:48,030
John: Yeah.
Woman: Okay.

1038
01:07:48,030 --> 01:07:50,670
John: That doesn't mean to say
they're going to wind up

1039
01:07:50,670 --> 01:07:53,480
knowing everything about everything,
because nobody does.

1040
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,120
But your life
is not just you.

1041
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:56,860
You've got friends.
They come here.

1042
01:07:56,860 --> 01:07:58,650
You know people.
They have interests.

1043
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,600
The child lives in kind of
bunch of concentric circles of family,

1044
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:06,520
and then larger family,
and close friends of family,

1045
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:08,450
and neighbors, streets.

1046
01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:13,520
And this world, as I say,
has many different layers in it.

1047
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:17,800
And some of your children
may meet people

1048
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:19,290
who happen to be
very interested

1049
01:08:19,290 --> 01:08:21,420
in things that you're
not much interested in,

1050
01:08:21,420 --> 01:08:23,080
and they may
pick up that interest.

1051
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,040
That's okay.

1052
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:27,920
As long as –
as I say, as long as –

1053
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:29,120
as far as we're able to,

1054
01:08:29,120 --> 01:08:32,120
we make it possible for children
to move into the world

1055
01:08:32,120 --> 01:08:33,880
in whatever ways
they want to do it,

1056
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:35,500
they're going to
find enough there.

1057
01:08:35,500 --> 01:08:37,250
Nobody's going to
die of starvation.

1058
01:08:37,250 --> 01:08:39,640
I don't care whether you live
on an isolated farm,

1059
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:42,920
or this sterile suburb that
everybody loves to talk about,

1060
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:45,800
or the wicked big city
that I live in,

1061
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:50,240
the fact is that human life,
as people live it,

1062
01:08:50,240 --> 01:08:53,800
has got more than enough
food for thought

1063
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:56,080
for children to bite into
and to grow.

1064
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:57,600
As they feel the need of more,

1065
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:00,690
they're going to know more about
where to go to look for it.

1066
01:09:03,900 --> 01:09:05,690
All right.
Now, let's see, two?

1067
01:09:07,490 --> 01:09:09,400
Woman: May I just
say to my friends here,

1068
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:10,970
wait until
they get married.

1069
01:09:11,990 --> 01:09:13,530
John: The chldren?
Woman: Right.

1070
01:09:13,530 --> 01:09:15,000
Then their lives
will widen up.

1071
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:17,120
Because our first just did.

1072
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:19,640
I'm still at homeschooling
with a six-year-old.

1073
01:09:19,640 --> 01:09:22,320
I just want to thank you,
John, from my heart

1074
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:24,200
for having helped us
very much here.

1075
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:25,720
And I don't
have a question.

1076
01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:26,980
But I wanted to tell you

1077
01:09:26,980 --> 01:09:29,680
that today, my sister-in-law
had to hang up the phone

1078
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:34,080
in order to go across the street
to walk her third-grader home

1079
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:38,280
because she has been molested
within 400 feet of her own home.

1080
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:41,190
And this doesn't even state
how I feel about the fact

1081
01:09:41,190 --> 01:09:43,420
that they're not learning going
to these places

1082
01:09:43,420 --> 01:09:47,950
that are supposed to be teaching –
or pouring it in, as you say.

1083
01:09:48,440 --> 01:09:51,320
I don't think that
we have to defend ourselves

1084
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:53,560
any more than if you're
walking down the street

1085
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:55,400
and someone starts to kill you,

1086
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:57,560
because I believe
taking my children out of

1087
01:09:57,560 --> 01:09:59,960
the public school system
saved their lives,

1088
01:09:59,960 --> 01:10:05,200
not just morally, religiously,
mentally – every way possible.

1089
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:07,880
And I appreciated
the story in GWS

1090
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:11,480
about the little girl who was
diagnosed as terminally ill

1091
01:10:11,480 --> 01:10:15,880
because this was worth
all the pennies I paid,

1092
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:17,930
the pink wage we
pay you for GWS.

1093
01:10:17,930 --> 01:10:20,465
Thank you, John,
very much.

1094
01:10:20,465 --> 01:10:25,095
John: Well, you're welcome.
[Applause]

1095
01:10:25,385 --> 01:10:28,160
We had an interesting story
in the Globe the other day.

1096
01:10:29,260 --> 01:10:30,520
I cut out the clipping.

1097
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:33,480
We always have about three times
as much stuff to print in GWS

1098
01:10:33,480 --> 01:10:36,200
as we ever have room to print,
which is frustrating.

1099
01:10:37,220 --> 01:10:38,555
This was about
a young man –

1100
01:10:38,555 --> 01:10:46,167
he's now 18 –
and he was autistic,

1101
01:10:46,167 --> 01:10:48,200
which is,
to this day,

1102
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:51,710
by the supposed official experts,
called "incurable".

1103
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:54,800
"Autistic" and "retarded,"
they're not the same thing.

1104
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:58,475
I mean, he just had a whole bunch
of these labels stuck on him.

1105
01:10:58,475 --> 01:11:01,330
It's hopeless –
"vegetable," "institutionalized."

1106
01:11:01,330 --> 01:11:03,500
If you can get him
in and out of the bathroom,

1107
01:11:03,500 --> 01:11:05,400
that's probably
as much as you can do.

1108
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:11,670
And somebody got 
interested in this boy

1109
01:11:11,670 --> 01:11:13,040
when he was
seven or eight,

1110
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:18,240
noticed that he seemed pretty
energetic and lively, and liked moving,

1111
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:24,320
and they got him started running –
and running distances.

1112
01:11:25,660 --> 01:11:27,907
Took him on long runs
or this, that, the other

1113
01:11:27,907 --> 01:11:29,920
– and they got him
into this running world.

1114
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:31,880
The boy's now 18,
I think.

1115
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:34,210
I don't remember whether
this was because he was

1116
01:11:34,210 --> 01:11:36,680
getting ready to run in
the Boston Marathon or not.

1117
01:11:36,680 --> 01:11:39,760
But at any rate, he's become
an extremely good runner.

1118
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:44,080
Incidentally, he has not
caught up with his age,

1119
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:47,680
but he talks intelligently
and intelligibly,

1120
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:48,830
reads –
I don't know –

1121
01:11:48,830 --> 01:11:50,570
something on
a 6th, 7th grade level.

1122
01:11:50,570 --> 01:11:52,480
But all this is going up.

1123
01:11:52,480 --> 01:11:55,960
He's become
a fully-functioning human being –

1124
01:11:55,960 --> 01:11:57,800
because he was allowed and helped

1125
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,780
to do the things
that he liked best.

1126
01:12:02,490 --> 01:12:05,240
People grow through their strengths,
not their weaknesses.

1127
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:06,700
One of the many simple truths,

1128
01:12:06,700 --> 01:12:11,840
which the giant educational,
psychological, medical, etc. institutions

1129
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:13,920
don't seem to be able
to learn is just that:

1130
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:17,560
that people learn by and
grow through their strengths,

1131
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:20,840
not by having people pound
away at their weaknesses.

1132
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:22,770
Somebody had
the wit and the imagination

1133
01:12:22,770 --> 01:12:25,160
to see that this boy
had a talent,

1134
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:27,820
a gift, a love,
something he wanted to do.

1135
01:12:29,990 --> 01:12:32,680
And then all this other stuff
kind of went along with it.

1136
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:35,140
Well, we know that,

1137
01:12:35,140 --> 01:12:37,696
and they don't know it
out there. [Chuckles]

1138
01:12:37,696 --> 01:12:41,059
And it's going to be
a long time before they do –

1139
01:12:42,819 --> 01:12:42,840
which is interesting.

1140
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:44,400
Okay, now let's see.

1141
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:45,880
Yes.

1142
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:50,760
Woman: I have a lot of resentment
against my public school education

1143
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:54,000
and further education here
at the University of Michigan,

1144
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:55,680
although I learned,
as you said,

1145
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:58,770
to play the games very well
and got good grades,

1146
01:12:58,770 --> 01:13:01,960
but felt that I didn't
develop a lot of interest,

1147
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:04,240
because I was too busy
playing the games.

1148
01:13:04,240 --> 01:13:08,160
But I wondered how
you would answer the question,

1149
01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:09,560
if I hear you correctly,

1150
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:13,140
that you allow a child to choose
what he wants to learn.

1151
01:13:14,240 --> 01:13:17,000
I can't imagine how
a person would ever choose

1152
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:20,200
to learn things
like trigonometry,

1153
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:24,010
or things that they say maybe
later that you're going to need.

1154
01:13:24,010 --> 01:13:25,800
John: Well, you will
need trigonometry

1155
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,750
if you're a surveyor –
in no other place and way.

1156
01:13:28,750 --> 01:13:29,980
I'm glad you picked that.

1157
01:13:29,980 --> 01:13:31,850
Woman: Well,
I didn't take trigonometry,

1158
01:13:31,850 --> 01:13:33,693
but the algebra
I used, for example.

1159
01:13:33,693 --> 01:13:34,693
John: Now, now
[inaudible] –

1160
01:13:34,693 --> 01:13:37,450
Woman: I didn't enjoy learning it,
but I've used it a lot.

1161
01:13:37,450 --> 01:13:39,235
John: Okay, well,
if you had not learned it,

1162
01:13:39,235 --> 01:13:41,020
and if you got to
a place in life

1163
01:13:41,020 --> 01:13:43,400
where you needed it to do
something you wanted to do,

1164
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:45,130
then you would
learn it very quickly.

1165
01:13:45,130 --> 01:13:47,080
It's no mystery.
It's not hidden.

1166
01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:48,753
The time to learn stuff is –

1167
01:13:48,753 --> 01:13:50,907
Woman: So you learn things
when you need them,

1168
01:13:50,907 --> 01:13:53,599
not when the school system says,
"This is geometry year."

1169
01:13:53,599 --> 01:13:55,946
John: Right, right.
You learn things when you –

1170
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:58,320
As a species,
as a living creature,

1171
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:01,080
we human beings
are incredibly good

1172
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:02,840
at learning stuff
when we need to –

1173
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:06,960
if we have not been convinced that
we're so stupid that we can't do it –

1174
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:10,040
which, unfortunately,
in a great many places, does happen.

1175
01:14:10,190 --> 01:14:12,180
Man: I don't know who
you're on right now,

1176
01:14:12,180 --> 01:14:15,430
but I just want to point out that
I'm enjoying learning algebra.

1177
01:14:15,430 --> 01:14:17,246
I'm alternatively educated.
[Laughter]

1178
01:14:18,676 --> 01:14:19,866
Woman: [Inaudible]

1179
01:14:19,866 --> 01:14:21,370
John: Good.
And thank you.

1180
01:14:21,370 --> 01:14:23,380
Woman: What kind of school
are you in now?

1181
01:14:23,380 --> 01:14:24,760
Man: Well, actually,
it's a public school,

1182
01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:28,440
but it's an attempt at being
an alternative school.

1183
01:14:28,440 --> 01:14:32,960
And it's not as close as
the school I went to before it,

1184
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:37,600
but it's closer than
the standard public schools,

1185
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:40,400
and it has the atmosphere
of an alternative school.

1186
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:47,120
But many of
our classes are chosen,

1187
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:48,660
I mean, rather than –

1188
01:14:49,980 --> 01:14:53,250
Beyond the state requirements that
the public schools have to follow,

1189
01:14:53,250 --> 01:14:54,830
most of our classes
are chosen.

1190
01:14:54,830 --> 01:14:58,420
Woman: Do you have
friends in regular public school?

1191
01:14:58,810 --> 01:15:01,440
What I wonder is if you feel,
in comparison,

1192
01:15:01,440 --> 01:15:03,740
that you're getting
a far better education.

1193
01:15:03,740 --> 01:15:05,940
Man: Well, the –
Woman: Obviously, you do.

1194
01:15:05,940 --> 01:15:08,280
Man: I was in the public schools
until 7th grade.

1195
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:10,360
And 7th grade,
I jumped around,

1196
01:15:10,360 --> 01:15:12,790
and it was
because of just

1197
01:15:12,790 --> 01:15:15,320
all sorts of problems
I was having in public schools.

1198
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:21,540
Yeah, I think my education
since I've gone into alternative schools

1199
01:15:21,540 --> 01:15:23,510
has been infinitely better.

1200
01:15:25,300 --> 01:15:27,280
John: Good.
Well, I'm glad to hear that.

1201
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:30,920
But I do want to make clear,
as far as I'm concerned,

1202
01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:34,240
I'm not trying to make –
never have tried to make

1203
01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:38,630
a distinction between public and
conventional private schools.

1204
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:41,920
If you remember
"How Children Fail,"

1205
01:15:41,920 --> 01:15:46,960
you'll remember that
somewhere along in the book I wrote,

1206
01:15:46,960 --> 01:15:49,850
"School is a place where
children learn to be stupid."

1207
01:15:49,850 --> 01:15:50,590
[Laughter]

1208
01:15:50,590 --> 01:15:53,620
Now, let me tell you about
the school about which I was writing.

1209
01:15:53,620 --> 01:15:54,729
I was not writing about

1210
01:15:54,729 --> 01:15:59,480
some poor old PS 111
in the middle of the downtown,

1211
01:15:59,480 --> 01:16:03,680
I was talking about
an extremely exclusive,

1212
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:07,400
high-powered, selective,
private elementary school,

1213
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:09,680
one of the two or three
outstanding such schools

1214
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:12,480
in the whole
Boston-Cambridge area –

1215
01:16:12,480 --> 01:16:15,070
the top of the top
of the top of the top!

1216
01:16:16,640 --> 01:16:19,000
They had an admissions policy

1217
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:21,440
under which a kid could
not get into the school

1218
01:16:21,440 --> 01:16:24,170
if she or he did not
have an IQ of 120.

1219
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:25,950
That was the cut-off!

1220
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:31,200
It was at that school
that I wrote,

1221
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:33,760
"School is a place where
children learn to be stupid."

1222
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:36,590
So I'm not drawing a line –
[chuckles] never have drawn it.

1223
01:16:36,590 --> 01:16:38,090
I'm not drawing it here saying,

1224
01:16:38,090 --> 01:16:41,490
"Ooh, look at all these terrible,
rotten public schools on one side.

1225
01:16:41,490 --> 01:16:42,640
Ooh, look at these –"

1226
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:45,520
What I was saying then
is that what I came to realize

1227
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:47,240
in that school
with these kids

1228
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:51,800
is that you cannot coerce learning
or attempt to coerce it

1229
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:54,160
without making people stupid –

1230
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:57,960
without making them afraid,
shifty, evasive, clever tricksters.

1231
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:01,960
Yeah, the cleverest tricksters,
they'll sail on to Harvard, MIT, Yale –

1232
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:03,800
I did that game.

1233
01:17:03,800 --> 01:17:07,040
Dope out the teacher,
guess the exam.

1234
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:09,680
Everybody knows
how it goes.

1235
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:12,440
And everybody who does it
knows that 90% of that stuff

1236
01:17:12,440 --> 01:17:17,120
you throw out just like dirty dishwater
as soon as the exam is passed.

1237
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:19,360
How many people on
any university faculty

1238
01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:20,960
could pass an exam –

1239
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:24,200
other than, perhaps basic
English reading and writing –

1240
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:26,280
outside of their own specialty?

1241
01:17:28,440 --> 01:17:33,720
I mean, just very, very few –
and they know it.

1242
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:36,800
I mean, this idea that there's
some great body of knowledge

1243
01:17:36,800 --> 01:17:38,960
which they all share –
it's just nonsense!

1244
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:40,440
Never was true –
not true now.

1245
01:17:40,440 --> 01:17:42,120
It's a fraud.

1246
01:17:42,710 --> 01:17:44,540
I mean, I think
a lot of people say it sincerely.

1247
01:17:44,540 --> 01:17:46,640
I don't think they're lying
when they say it.

1248
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:49,440
But I mean, it's a fraud
because it's just not so!

1249
01:17:49,440 --> 01:17:51,280
Nobody remembers that stuff.

1250
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:54,840
Harvard University –

1251
01:17:55,440 --> 01:17:59,600
if you're taking some big course,
they announce an exam.

1252
01:18:00,440 --> 01:18:04,430
Some professor's going to
have an exam in his or her course.

1253
01:18:04,430 --> 01:18:05,550
Professor announces it:

1254
01:18:05,550 --> 01:18:07,940
"We will have such an exam
on such and such a day,

1255
01:18:07,940 --> 01:18:10,280
and it will cover such and
such and such a topic."

1256
01:18:10,280 --> 01:18:14,600
And then you spend a certain amount
of time discussing this in review.

1257
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:17,160
Nobody springs surprise exams
on their students

1258
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:19,600
because they know
perfectly well what would happen.

1259
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:22,405
No, it's a very –

1260
01:18:23,475 --> 01:18:24,962
All right.
[Laughter]

1261
01:18:24,962 --> 01:18:27,081
I'll get out of that.
I'll go on all night.

1262
01:18:27,081 --> 01:18:29,200
[Laughter]

1263
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:31,260
Let's see, now,
where are we in our numbers?

1264
01:18:31,260 --> 01:18:32,180
John: Yes.

1265
01:18:32,180 --> 01:18:33,579
Dorothy: I'm 4.
John: Good.

1266
01:18:36,399 --> 01:18:37,340
Dorothy: I help coordinate

1267
01:18:37,340 --> 01:18:40,340
a homeschooling
support group in Chicago,

1268
01:18:40,340 --> 01:18:45,880
and I'm noticing
more and more

1269
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:50,440
the split that you have alluded to
in homeschooling as well

1270
01:18:50,440 --> 01:18:54,480
between those who wish to
coerce learning and those who don't.

1271
01:18:54,480 --> 01:18:59,010
And those who do
are very much interested –

1272
01:18:59,010 --> 01:19:00,720
as it happens in Illinois –

1273
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:04,480
in keeping those of us
who don't want to coerce

1274
01:19:04,480 --> 01:19:08,680
in a semblance of unity with them
vis-à-vis the state.

1275
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:11,960
And it's becoming
more and more difficult,

1276
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:13,920
I think, for that to happen.

1277
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:17,520
And I wonder if you would
comment on that, and also on –

1278
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:20,720
There is a definite
one-way flow of energy happening

1279
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:26,090
because those of us
who do not wish to coerce

1280
01:19:26,090 --> 01:19:32,920
give support and assistance
very often to those who do,

1281
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:35,350
because they believe they
have the right to choose.

1282
01:19:35,750 --> 01:19:38,080
And those who
wish to coerce

1283
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:41,280
really don't think that the rest of us
do have the right because,

1284
01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:43,480
"We're not doing it
the right way, you see."

1285
01:19:44,340 --> 01:19:46,880
So, would you
comment on that?

1286
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:50,990
This is not a problem I want solved
because I don't see it being [inaudible]

1287
01:19:50,990 --> 01:19:52,528
John: That's good,
because it's –

1288
01:19:52,528 --> 01:19:54,310
Dorothy: – we're
not going to do that.

1289
01:19:54,310 --> 01:19:57,050
But I would like a comment
from you, if you will, on that,

1290
01:19:57,050 --> 01:20:01,160
especially vis-à-vis legislation,
and that sort of thing,

1291
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:07,000
when our interests tend to be
moving further and further apart.

1292
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:11,464
And what would you think we should do
in terms of strategies about this?

1293
01:20:12,354 --> 01:20:13,840
John: Thank you, Dorothy.

1294
01:20:15,210 --> 01:20:18,000
I first think of something
a friend of mine used to say:

1295
01:20:18,520 --> 01:20:20,530
"This isn't a problem,
it's a predicament."

1296
01:20:21,144 --> 01:20:22,110
Dorothy: Right.
[Laughter]

1297
01:20:25,710 --> 01:20:28,600
John: The word "problem"
kind of cooks up in our mind

1298
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:31,000
a picture of something
which we could make go away

1299
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:33,440
if we could just figure out
the right thing to do.

1300
01:20:33,440 --> 01:20:35,808
Things like death and taxes
are predicaments,

1301
01:20:35,808 --> 01:20:37,460
and they're just
part of reality.

1302
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:41,550
Yeah, this is a part of reality,
and we are living with it,

1303
01:20:41,550 --> 01:20:45,110
and we're going to be living with it
as far in the future as I can see.

1304
01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:50,640
It doesn't trouble me that –

1305
01:20:50,640 --> 01:20:54,400
I'm going to
respond in several sections.

1306
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:55,650
First place,
I don't think

1307
01:20:55,650 --> 01:20:58,820
it's a cause for worry
or concern or distress

1308
01:20:58,820 --> 01:21:01,240
that we may be
helping people

1309
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:05,960
to get rights which they
would not help us to get.

1310
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:07,708
Dorothy: I'm not worried
about that.

1311
01:21:09,628 --> 01:21:11,820
John: Now, there's
no reason in the world

1312
01:21:11,820 --> 01:21:13,640
not to work
together with people

1313
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:16,720
with whom we disagree
about many things

1314
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:19,120
on those things
about which we agree.

1315
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:23,160
Because when we improve
the legislative situation,

1316
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:25,160
then we've made things
easier for all of us.

1317
01:21:33,350 --> 01:21:36,155
Another thing
I would have to say is –

1318
01:21:37,555 --> 01:21:39,360
Well, first of all,

1319
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:44,200
a lot of the people who begin
as coercive homeschoolers change.

1320
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:46,434
Dorothy: I've seen
a lot of that [inaudible].

1321
01:21:46,434 --> 01:21:51,640
John: Their children teach them [laughter]
about how learning really works.

1322
01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:54,240
And if – and this is
very, very often true –

1323
01:21:54,240 --> 01:21:58,880
if they care enough about their children
to pay attention to their feelings

1324
01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:04,640
and pick up these messages,
they become educated,

1325
01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:08,840
and they become
less and less coercive –

1326
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:10,630
minimally coercive.

1327
01:22:11,320 --> 01:22:13,840
My experience is that the people
who do not make that change

1328
01:22:13,840 --> 01:22:16,390
don't stay in
homeschooling very long.

1329
01:22:17,280 --> 01:22:19,240
That is, people who –

1330
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:21,360
whether for reasons
religious or other,

1331
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:24,680
believe in high-pressure coercion,

1332
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,880
soon find ways to get together with
other people who feel the same way

1333
01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:30,000
and they start
some kind of coercive school.

1334
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:31,720
I don't think
you're very likely

1335
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:35,280
to find people doing
coercive homeschooling

1336
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:37,720
for four or five
years in a row.

1337
01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:39,480
I mean, their children
would hit the road,

1338
01:22:39,480 --> 01:22:43,566
if nothing else happened.
[Laughter]

1339
01:22:46,926 --> 01:22:49,990
I'm untroubled
by having people start

1340
01:22:49,990 --> 01:22:53,230
in a position which is
very far from my own,

1341
01:22:53,230 --> 01:22:56,330
partly because I believe people
should have the right to do this

1342
01:22:56,330 --> 01:22:59,130
however they want to do it,
not just if they agree with me,

1343
01:22:59,130 --> 01:23:01,840
and partly because I have
a lot of confidence, as I say,

1344
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:03,770
that they will learn
from their children,

1345
01:23:03,770 --> 01:23:05,800
that they will move
away from coercion.

1346
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:09,040
As I have said
at teachers' colleges,

1347
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:11,760
one reason homeschooling
works well in practice

1348
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:15,460
is that the home is an absolutely
splendid teacher-training institution.

1349
01:23:15,460 --> 01:23:17,420
[Laughter]

1350
01:23:17,420 --> 01:23:18,860
The numbers
are small enough

1351
01:23:18,860 --> 01:23:23,600
so you can really hear the messages
that your children are sending.

1352
01:23:24,470 --> 01:23:27,000
And you're in a position where,
if you choose to,

1353
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:28,570
you can learn from them.

1354
01:23:28,880 --> 01:23:32,240
Now, when I first discovered,
as a fifth-grade classroom teacher,

1355
01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:34,440
that a lot of children
were so scared

1356
01:23:34,440 --> 01:23:36,600
of the weekly
arithmetic test

1357
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:39,120
that they couldn't
think about arithmetic,

1358
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:40,480
I stopped giving the tests.

1359
01:23:40,480 --> 01:23:41,960
And it wasn't more than
about two weeks

1360
01:23:41,960 --> 01:23:43,280
before the school administration

1361
01:23:43,280 --> 01:23:45,120
told me that I had to
start giving them again,

1362
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:47,610
and they fired me
at the end of the year.

1363
01:23:48,560 --> 01:23:50,600
So I was not
in a position to do

1364
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:53,600
what my conscience and
intelligence and instincts

1365
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:55,120
told me needed
to be done.

1366
01:23:55,120 --> 01:23:56,960
Parents aren't
in that position.

1367
01:23:56,960 --> 01:23:58,610
"You can start
with a little desk,

1368
01:23:58,610 --> 01:24:01,290
an American flag,
a schedule on the blackboard –

1369
01:24:01,290 --> 01:24:03,460
[Laughter]

1370
01:24:03,460 --> 01:24:06,170
– but the day you find out
it isn't working, you can say,

1371
01:24:06,170 --> 01:24:08,050
"We're going to do
something different."

1372
01:24:08,050 --> 01:24:09,822
You have that
freedom to move –

1373
01:24:09,822 --> 01:24:10,541
[Recording ends prematurely]