[Script Info]
Title: 
[Events]
Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text
Dialogue: 0,0:00:02.92,0:00:05.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm sure that you have\Nread "How Children Learn,"
Dialogue: 0,0:00:05.72,0:00:07.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"How Children Fail,"\N"Teach Your Own."
Dialogue: 0,0:00:07.84,0:00:10.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You may have had\Nan opportunity to see,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:10.04,0:00:15.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,lots of times on tour, him talking\Non television or on the radio,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:15.04,0:00:22.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John Holt, who's probably the best-known,\Nmost vocal commentator on unschooling,
Dialogue: 0,0:00:22.28,0:00:26.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and particularly home-based education,\Nin the country right now.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:26.76,0:00:29.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Also, I understand he's\Na magnificent cello player.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:29.16,0:00:34.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So maybe some germane questions about\Nthat would be refreshing and useful, as well.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:34.48,0:00:44.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Here's John Holt.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:44.10,0:00:44.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Applause]
Dialogue: 0,0:00:44.11,0:00:45.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John Holt: Well,\Nthanks very much.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:45.08,0:00:49.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First of all, we have to delete\Nthat "magnificent" part. [Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:00:49.36,0:00:54.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Someday maybe,\Nbut not yet.
Dialogue: 0,0:00:54.44,0:00:55.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How many people\Nstill remember
Dialogue: 0,0:00:55.72,0:00:59.100,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those instructions\Nabout how to get to this – ?
Dialogue: 0,0:00:59.100,0:01:03.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We'll have a run through again\Nafter the meeting, I think.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:08.08,0:01:13.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We were talking about parking,\Nand something popped into my head.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:13.28,0:01:18.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was tempted to interrupt and say it,\Nbut I didn't, but I'll say it now.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:18.36,0:01:29.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What popped in was,\N"Parking is such sweet sorrow."
Dialogue: 0,0:01:29.92,0:01:30.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:01:30.28,0:01:32.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, thank you for coming.\NThank you for inviting me.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:32.24,0:01:34.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's nice to be here.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:34.76,0:01:40.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I said I was surprised to see,\Namong a number of good friends of mine,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:40.64,0:01:43.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a friend that I really didn't\Nexpect to see here.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:43.28,0:01:47.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think\Nhe probably wins
Dialogue: 0,0:01:47.72,0:01:50.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the long-distance attendance\Nrecord for this meeting.
Dialogue: 0,0:01:50.88,0:01:53.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, I'm John Holt from Boston,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:53.60,0:01:58.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but I'd like you to see\NJohn Boston from Escondido,
Dialogue: 0,0:01:58.56,0:02:00.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which happens to be\Nnear San Diego.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:00.36,0:02:02.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I couldn't believe he was\Nhere for this meeting.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:02.16,0:02:15.33,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just wave your hand or say hi.\N[Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:02:15.33,0:02:15.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John Boston: Hi.\N[Applause]
Dialogue: 0,0:02:15.35,0:02:18.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John: I want to talk about\Na number of things tonight.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:18.36,0:02:25.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And first of all though,\NI'm probably saying things
Dialogue: 0,0:02:25.04,0:02:28.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that you've heard me\Nsay before or read.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:28.34,0:02:35.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, this young man has the right idea\Nabout how to dress for this meeting.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:35.34,0:02:38.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:02:38.28,0:02:40.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Oh, but I guess,\Neven before I get into
Dialogue: 0,0:02:40.64,0:02:44.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what you might call\Nthe body of this formal address,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:44.20,0:02:50.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I want to ask just a few questions\Nto locate the audience.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:51.52,0:02:54.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And perhaps one way to start\Nwould be by saying,
Dialogue: 0,0:02:54.72,0:02:58.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how many of you – I'm asking here\Nfor a "show of hands" response.
Dialogue: 0,0:02:59.84,0:03:03.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I wonder if we could\Nremove that rattle.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:03.30,0:03:05.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Woman: Sure.\NJohn: Thank you.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:05.92,0:03:09.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Experience has taught me\Nthe good things to bring with little kids,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:09.88,0:03:14.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I love to bring bags of it –\Nget it all out. [Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:03:14.68,0:03:21.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This young man is divesting himself\Nof his coveralls. [Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:03:21.84,0:03:24.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think, very smart.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:24.28,0:03:31.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, how many of you\Nare working with,
Dialogue: 0,0:03:31.96,0:03:36.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in one capacity or another,\Nalternative schools?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:36.24,0:03:39.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All right.\NThank you very much.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:39.52,0:03:41.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And another question.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:41.56,0:03:47.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How many of you are now\Nparents of school-aged kids?
Dialogue: 0,0:03:47.12,0:03:50.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Good.\NAll right.
Dialogue: 0,0:03:50.84,0:03:52.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How many of\Nthose of you
Dialogue: 0,0:03:52.84,0:03:59.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are parents of school-aged kids\Nare sending them to alternative schools?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:01.80,0:04:03.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All right.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:03.08,0:04:07.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How many of you\Nare teaching them at home?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:07.24,0:04:08.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Big crowd.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:08.76,0:04:15.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, this next one\Nwill be for those of you
Dialogue: 0,0:04:15.76,0:04:19.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who are parents of children\Nwho are not yet of school age
Dialogue: 0,0:04:19.52,0:04:24.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or expect soon to be\Nparents of very young children.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:24.16,0:04:27.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How many of you are\Nseriously considering
Dialogue: 0,0:04:27.44,0:04:33.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the idea of, I'd say,\Nteaching them at home?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:33.52,0:04:33.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All right.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:33.88,0:04:36.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And how many of you\Nare seriously considering
Dialogue: 0,0:04:36.56,0:04:38.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sending them to\Nan alternative school
Dialogue: 0,0:04:38.28,0:04:43.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if there's one near you\Nthat was within reach?
Dialogue: 0,0:04:43.32,0:04:44.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay, good.
Dialogue: 0,0:04:45.76,0:04:57.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How many of you are teaching\Nor otherwise working with –
Dialogue: 0,0:04:57.04,0:05:02.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,– with public schools\Nor colleges or universities,
Dialogue: 0,0:05:02.16,0:05:05.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let's say, in one\Ncapacity or another?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:05.48,0:05:08.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay, thank you very much.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.04,0:05:09.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The grandparent question.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:09.32,0:05:15.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How many of you\Nare grandparents of homeschooled or –
Dialogue: 0,0:05:15.00,0:05:19.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Good! –\Nalternative-schooled children?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:19.28,0:05:19.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:19.60,0:05:26.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Grandparents are a very\Nimportant ingredient in this situation.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:26.32,0:05:44.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are homeschoolers who are\Nhaving just about as much with –
Dialogue: 0,0:05:44.98,0:05:45.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Small child: Hi.\NJohn: Hi.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.01,0:05:45.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How are you doing?
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.03,0:05:45.05,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Child: Hi. Hi.\NJohn: Hi.
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.05,0:05:45.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The famous Jimmy Durante said:
Dialogue: 0,0:05:45.08,0:05:46.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Everybody's trying to\Nget into the act!" [Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:05:46.44,0:05:53.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are folks who are having\Nabout as much trouble with grandparents
Dialogue: 0,0:05:53.24,0:05:54.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as they are with superintendents.\N[Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:05:54.88,0:06:00.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, it's extremely important to have\Nfriendly and supportive grandparents
Dialogue: 0,0:06:00.76,0:06:08.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in this alternative-education movement.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:08.80,0:06:11.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, let me sum up\Nin a very few words
Dialogue: 0,0:06:11.72,0:06:13.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what I have been\Nsaying and writing
Dialogue: 0,0:06:13.24,0:06:20.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about children and learning now\Nfor going on 25 years or more.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:20.08,0:06:23.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,As a result of my experiences,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:23.44,0:06:29.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,first of all as a classroom teacher\Nworking in just about every grade,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:29.08,0:06:33.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,sometimes, say,\NK through G.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:33.72,0:06:36.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I did a little college and\Ngraduate school teaching –
Dialogue: 0,0:06:36.24,0:06:38.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not very much.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:38.52,0:06:40.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,K through 12 might be\Na little more accurate.
Dialogue: 0,0:06:40.68,0:06:42.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But as a result of,\Non the one hand,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:42.32,0:06:48.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,working with children in\Nmore or less conventional classrooms,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:48.00,0:06:51.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and on the other hand,\Nspending a lot of time
Dialogue: 0,0:06:51.48,0:06:54.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,with babies, infants,\Nlittle children –
Dialogue: 0,0:06:54.16,0:06:55.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,first my sisters',
Dialogue: 0,0:06:55.20,0:06:59.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,then the children of other people,\Nlittle children in nursery schools,
Dialogue: 0,0:06:59.52,0:07:04.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and since then, many children\Nof homeschooling parents –
Dialogue: 0,0:07:04.84,0:07:09.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I came to understand something –\Ncertainly to believe something
Dialogue: 0,0:07:09.44,0:07:18.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about young human beings\Nof which I am more certain
Dialogue: 0,0:07:18.28,0:07:21.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than I am, I think,\Nabout anything in the world –
Dialogue: 0,0:07:21.64,0:07:26.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that is\Nthat children are,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:26.56,0:07:30.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by nature and from birth,\Nor perhaps before birth –
Dialogue: 0,0:07:30.20,0:07:34.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,though I have no testimony\Nto offer about that –
Dialogue: 0,0:07:34.92,0:07:38.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,natural learning creatures.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:39.56,0:07:42.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is nothing\Nthat they want more.
Dialogue: 0,0:07:42.44,0:07:46.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They have a desire –\Nmore than a desire, a passion –
Dialogue: 0,0:07:46.88,0:07:49.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to find out\Nas much as they can,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:49.48,0:07:54.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to make as much sense as they can\Nof the world around them,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:54.04,0:07:56.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or as much of that world\Nas they experience,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:56.32,0:07:58.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to become competent\Nand skillful in it,
Dialogue: 0,0:07:58.56,0:08:02.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do things in it,\Nto play a useful part in it.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:02.04,0:08:06.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is a truly biological\Ninstinct or drive.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:06.72,0:08:14.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It is as strong as\Nor stronger –
Dialogue: 0,0:08:14.32,0:08:17.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at least for children\Nwho are not in famine condition –
Dialogue: 0,0:08:17.40,0:08:21.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it is stronger than\Nthe desire to eat.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:21.36,0:08:23.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Those of you\Nwho are mothers
Dialogue: 0,0:08:23.28,0:08:27.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or attentive and observant fathers\Nof very young children
Dialogue: 0,0:08:27.20,0:08:30.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will have seen this\Nhappen many times,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:30.84,0:08:33.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that a tiny infant,\Nbabe in arms,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:33.88,0:08:36.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hungry with his\Nlittle stomach hurting –
Dialogue: 0,0:08:36.51,0:08:42.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is what happens when they're hungry –\Nand eating, feeding, nursing,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:42.32,0:08:46.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will stop eating\Nif something interesting happens.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:46.04,0:08:48.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If somebody comes into the room,\Nif there's a noise,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:48.28,0:08:50.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if there's some kind of\Na change in the situation,
Dialogue: 0,0:08:50.62,0:08:52.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this hungry little teeny creature
Dialogue: 0,0:08:52.80,0:08:59.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will stop eating and look around\Nto see what's going on.
Dialogue: 0,0:08:59.60,0:09:04.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There is probably not a mother in the world\Nwho hasn't seen this happen.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:04.16,0:09:09.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And how we can persist in talking about\Nchildren not being interested in learning
Dialogue: 0,0:09:09.60,0:09:11.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or needing to be taught to learn,\Nor whatever it is,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:11.92,0:09:17.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is just absolutely beyond me.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:17.42,0:09:19.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Anyway.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:19.32,0:09:27.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are extremely good at this learning,\Nthis making sense of the world.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:27.16,0:09:36.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're much better at it than we are,\Nor than all but some microscopic fraction.
Dialogue: 0,0:09:36.12,0:09:39.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If by some accident of who knows what –\Nscience fiction –
Dialogue: 0,0:09:39.92,0:09:44.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were all of us to be dropped into,\Nsay, the interior of Japan
Dialogue: 0,0:09:44.28,0:09:48.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or some exotic part of the world\Nwhere nobody spoke a word of English,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:48.38,0:09:52.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where everybody was speaking\Nsome language we had never heard of,
Dialogue: 0,0:09:52.84,0:09:56.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's no mystery to us\Nwhich of us here in the room
Dialogue: 0,0:09:56.72,0:10:01.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would be talking that language first –\Nthe little guys would.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:01.64,0:10:03.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All of them\Nwould be talking it.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:03.76,0:10:05.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Most of them\Ntalking it fairly soon.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:05.48,0:10:08.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Most of us –\Nsome of us – big ones –
Dialogue: 0,0:10:08.20,0:10:10.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would be struggling along\Nin a kind of a halting way.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:10.96,0:10:14.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And a lot of us would\Nnever learn any of it.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:14.16,0:10:16.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Many of us would\Nnever know it.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:16.12,0:10:24.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just the problems of learning something\Ntotally new without any assistance with it.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:24.28,0:10:26.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No, they get it first.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:26.32,0:10:29.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we all know that\Nwhen we think about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:29.32,0:10:35.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're extremely\Ngood at it.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:35.36,0:10:38.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, another way of saying\Nwhat I've come to believe
Dialogue: 0,0:10:38.88,0:10:49.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that learning is not\Nthe product of teaching.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:49.28,0:10:53.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Very difficult for me\Nas a paid teacher
Dialogue: 0,0:10:53.20,0:10:57.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,over a number of years\Nto get that into my thick head.
Dialogue: 0,0:10:57.16,0:11:02.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was very good at that whatever you call\Nthat thing that goes on in classrooms.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:02.28,0:11:07.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was probably a good example\Nof what's called a gifted teacher –
Dialogue: 0,0:11:07.60,0:11:14.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,motivating, clever at devices,\Ngood at explaining,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:14.04,0:11:15.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all that stuff you're\Nsupposed to do.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:15.40,0:11:21.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It took me a long time to figure out\Nthat this was not doing anybody any good,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:21.20,0:11:25.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and most people harm.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:25.80,0:11:28.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Very hard for us to give up\Nthe picture of learning
Dialogue: 0,0:11:28.96,0:11:34.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it's like pouring something out of\Na full container into an empty one.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:34.56,0:11:38.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's this assumption which lies at\Nthe root of absolutely everything
Dialogue: 0,0:11:38.72,0:11:42.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's done in schools and\Nunder the name of education.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:42.72,0:11:44.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's a hundred percent wrong.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:44.68,0:11:48.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, not even 98% wrong –\Na hundred percent wrong.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:48.36,0:11:51.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That is not what happens.
Dialogue: 0,0:11:51.48,0:11:58.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Learning is the product of the curiosity,\Nthe interest, the enthusiasm, the activity,
Dialogue: 0,0:11:58.56,0:12:09.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the ingenuity, the imagination,\Nthe thinking power of the learner.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:09.84,0:12:14.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, there are things that outsiders,\Nwhether grown-up or whatever,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:14.00,0:12:20.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,can do to assist this process, and\NI'll talk about them in just a few minutes.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:20.40,0:12:27.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the work is\Ndone by the learner.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:27.76,0:12:36.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,These little people are not empty receptacles\Ninto which knowledge is poured.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:36.68,0:12:39.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are not sponges\Nsoaking up knowledge.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:39.80,0:12:44.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are not little lamps to be lighted,\Nas somebody else likes to say.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:44.20,0:12:47.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are not\Nany of these metaphors.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:47.12,0:12:53.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are, in the most strict and\Nliteral sense of the word, scientists.
Dialogue: 0,0:12:53.16,0:12:58.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The things that they do\Nto create knowledge out of experience,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:58.16,0:12:59.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is what learning is,
Dialogue: 0,0:12:59.28,0:13:04.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are exactly the same as the things\Nthat the people we think of as scientists
Dialogue: 0,0:13:04.84,0:13:07.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,do in their laboratory.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:07.64,0:13:10.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When they do them, perhaps,\Nthere are some differences.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:10.04,0:13:12.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are probably\Na good deal less self-conscious.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:12.30,0:13:14.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A scientist will probably have
Dialogue: 0,0:13:14.36,0:13:16.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a pretty clear idea of what\Nshe or he is looking for,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:16.92,0:13:20.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,whereas little kids\Nare not doing it in that way.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:20.96,0:13:23.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nevertheless, they\Ndo the same things.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:23.48,0:13:28.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The first is they observe,\Nthey take in data.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:28.40,0:13:32.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the second is that\Nthey wonder about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:32.84,0:13:39.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the third is that they ask\Nthemselves questions about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:39.72,0:13:41.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The second and third\Nare pretty close.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:41.04,0:13:46.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, they begin to\Nmake up theories, invent theories,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:46.28,0:13:49.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe that the wind blows because\Nthe trees are moving their branches,
Dialogue: 0,0:13:49.84,0:13:56.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which, on the face of it,\Nis not a bad theory.
Dialogue: 0,0:13:56.84,0:14:00.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, they test these theories\Nwith observation, maybe with questions,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:00.80,0:14:07.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,LL maybe with experiments, some of which we\Nmay welcome and others of which we may not.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:07.94,0:14:13.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In this connection, I think of the most\Nrecent visit to my house of Anna Vandoren,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:13.88,0:14:16.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of whom you may have read in\N"Growing Without Schooling."
Dialogue: 0,0:14:16.80,0:14:20.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Anna's going to be four in June.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:20.92,0:14:23.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We were in the apartment.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:23.72,0:14:25.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Her mother and I\Nwere doing various kinds of work.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:25.52,0:14:28.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Her little guy seemed not to be\Ngetting in any physical trouble.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:28.60,0:14:30.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And when the time\Ncame to leave,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:30.12,0:14:33.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I have a door with one of\Nthose push-button locks on it.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:33.84,0:14:41.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And as I was leaving, I reached in to push\Nthe lock, and my thumb fell into a hole.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:41.20,0:14:43.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, this feels\Nkind of funny.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:43.08,0:14:47.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I looked, and\Nthe push lock wasn't there,
Dialogue: 0,0:14:47.32,0:14:49.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it was sitting\Non the floor.
Dialogue: 0,0:14:49.84,0:14:52.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I said, "Anna, you've taken\Nthe lock out of my doorknob!"
Dialogue: 0,0:14:52.92,0:14:59.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It took me about four or five minutes\Nto figure out how to get it back in.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:00.60,0:15:04.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Children tend to like to do\Nexperiments right up into the point
Dialogue: 0,0:15:04.60,0:15:07.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where no further\Nexperimenting is possible,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:07.04,0:15:09.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I guess you could say, –\Nup to the disaster limit.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:09.68,0:15:16.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it's very good on learning, but it's\Nsometimes tough on the lab. [Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:15:16.84,0:15:20.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So these experiments are not always\Nwelcome, but nevertheless, they do them.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:20.48,0:15:23.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, as a result of\Nwhat they find out,
Dialogue: 0,0:15:23.68,0:15:27.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they give up their theories,\Nmodify them, change them.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:27.36,0:15:30.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's see.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:30.96,0:15:35.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Has the GWS gone out which talks about\Nmy little friend Helen saying, "gocks?"
Dialogue: 0,0:15:35.72,0:15:39.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or is that 44?
Dialogue: 0,0:15:39.96,0:15:40.01,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Maybe you haven't received it yet.\NWoman: Yeah.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.01,0:15:40.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Woman: It just arrived.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:40.03,0:15:43.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John : All right.\NSo here's Helen Vandoren.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:43.48,0:15:46.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Actually, her full name is\NHelen Maria-Holt Vandoren.
Dialogue: 0,0:15:46.08,0:15:50.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I had two schools and\None baby named after me. [Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:15:50.60,0:15:58.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the schools is defunct,\Nbut the baby is fine. [Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:15:58.98,0:16:00.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At any rate.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:00.92,0:16:06.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Helen has been, for some time,\Nusing the word "gocks" to say socks.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:06.52,0:16:10.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this is a mystery to us because\Nshe knows how to say the sound "sss,"
Dialogue: 0,0:16:10.68,0:16:12.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and says it in lots\Nof other connections.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:12.44,0:16:15.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Indeed, it was one of\Nthe first sounds she said,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:15.24,0:16:20.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it had multiple meanings,\Nincluding that she wanted to nurse.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:20.52,0:16:25.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We simply could not imagine where\Nshe got the idea of saying gocks.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:25.86,0:16:27.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,She never heard\Nanybody say it, obviously.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:27.96,0:16:28.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No imitation.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:28.60,0:16:33.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Her sister had\Nnever said it.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:33.36,0:16:36.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you think of the way sounds\Nare produced in the mouth and throat,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:36.16,0:16:38.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,S and G are\Nnot at all alike.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:38.72,0:16:42.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's not\Na small difference.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:42.98,0:16:48.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At any rate, she must have had some\Nkind of theory about why she wanted
Dialogue: 0,0:16:48.80,0:16:52.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to do it this way and not some\Nother way – and it was a theory.
Dialogue: 0,0:16:52.80,0:16:56.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Just the other day, oh, I think maybe not\Nmore than about three or four days ago,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:56.92,0:16:59.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we were all in the office,
Dialogue: 0,0:16:59.12,0:17:02.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it was time for\Nthe Vandoren family to go home,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:02.56,0:17:06.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which means rounding up the kids' clothes,\Nshoes, socks, putting them on them –
Dialogue: 0,0:17:06.48,0:17:07.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an operation\Nyou know well.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:09.92,0:17:13.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we had Helen sitting on the floor\Ngetting ready to put her socks on.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:13.72,0:17:21.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And she looked at them thoughtfully,\Nand said, "Zzzzocks.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:21.47,0:17:21.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Zzzzocks."
Dialogue: 0,0:17:21.48,0:17:23.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I said to Mary, "Have you\Never heard her say that before?"
Dialogue: 0,0:17:23.48,0:17:27.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mary said,\N"No, first time."
Dialogue: 0,0:17:27.92,0:17:30.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I saw Mary just\Na couple of days ago and said,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:30.00,0:17:32.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"How is the 'zocks' going?"\NHas she said "gocks" since?
Dialogue: 0,0:17:32.84,0:17:33.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"No," she said.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:33.68,0:17:36.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In fact, she's very quickly\Nconverted the "zocks" to "socks,"
Dialogue: 0,0:17:36.76,0:17:38.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that's what\Nit is now.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:38.88,0:17:40.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, why that difference,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:40.68,0:17:42.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which didn't make any\Ndifference to her before,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:42.52,0:17:44.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all of a sudden did\Nmake a difference,
Dialogue: 0,0:17:44.20,0:17:47.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't know, you don't know,\Nshe doesn't know, we'll never know –
Dialogue: 0,0:17:47.22,0:17:50.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,except everybody does it.
Dialogue: 0,0:17:50.20,0:17:53.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All of a sudden, whatever\Ntheory of language it was
Dialogue: 0,0:17:53.28,0:17:54.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that caused her\Nto say "gocks,"
Dialogue: 0,0:17:54.92,0:17:59.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,suddenly seemed unsatisfactory,\Ndidn't work, didn't fit –
Dialogue: 0,0:17:59.32,0:18:00.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so now she says "socks."
Dialogue: 0,0:18:00.84,0:18:01.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:01.84,0:18:07.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,A very small example which we\Ncould multiply by the billions,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:07.48,0:18:09.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's what\Nthese little people do.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:09.16,0:18:13.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are observers, makers,\Ntesters, changers of theories.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:13.96,0:18:21.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They are, in the strictest\Nsense of the word, scientists.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:21.24,0:18:24.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And, at least\Nas far as learning goes,
Dialogue: 0,0:18:24.84,0:18:28.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all they ask is to be allowed\Nto continue to do this.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:28.96,0:18:30.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, what we can do –
Dialogue: 0,0:18:31.24,0:18:36.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I come back to the point about\Nwhat can adults do to help? –
Dialogue: 0,0:18:36.16,0:18:40.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we are, in many ways,\Nan essential part of this process.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:40.00,0:18:43.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't claim children would ever\Nlearn to figure out how to talk
Dialogue: 0,0:18:43.28,0:18:45.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if they were\Nsurrounded by deaf-mutes.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:45.24,0:18:50.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It wouldn't happen.
Dialogue: 0,0:18:51.12,0:18:59.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What we can do, what we do in our normal daily\Nlives before we start thinking about education
Dialogue: 0,0:18:59.12,0:19:04.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or coerced learning is we provide children with\N–
Dialogue: 0,0:19:04.24,0:19:09.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as much as we can –\Naccess to the world around them –
Dialogue: 0,0:19:11.32,0:19:16.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by which I mean not just places,\Nplaces that we go, places at the house,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:16.36,0:19:20.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the kitchen, the yard, the neighborhood,\Nthe stores, wherever we go,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:20.28,0:19:24.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but also the world of people,\Nthe world of experience, actions,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:24.08,0:19:32.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talk, materials, books, records,\Ntools, people doing things, human life.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:32.72,0:19:34.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, what we can do\Nfor these little guys
Dialogue: 0,0:19:34.40,0:19:38.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is to provide them with –\Nas much as we reasonably can –
Dialogue: 0,0:19:38.24,0:19:39.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I say reasonably –
Dialogue: 0,0:19:39.16,0:19:43.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not saying you have to\Nmake your whole life into a field trip –
Dialogue: 0,0:19:43.12,0:19:48.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as we reasonably can with access\Nto our own lives as we lead them.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:48.36,0:19:50.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you live in the woods,\Nthat means the woods.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:50.08,0:19:52.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you live in downtown city,\Nthat means downtown.
Dialogue: 0,0:19:52.80,0:19:55.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, wherever we live,\Nwhatever we do,
Dialogue: 0,0:19:55.80,0:19:59.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as far as we can,\Nwe open up that world to children –
Dialogue: 0,0:19:59.96,0:20:02.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,let them see it,\Nlet them be part of it –
Dialogue: 0,0:20:02.52,0:20:04.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we answer their questions\Nwhen they have them –
Dialogue: 0,0:20:04.60,0:20:05.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they have lots of them.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:05.96,0:20:11.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Some of you will have discovered that\Nwhen your children are getting on --
Dialogue: 0,0:20:11.51,0:20:11.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Small child: Hi.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:11.88,0:20:13.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John: Oh, hi again.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:13.35,0:20:20.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Child: Hi, hi.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:20.66,0:20:20.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John: Mm-hmm.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:20.67,0:20:22.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John: Well, when they're\Ngetting on to a year and a half,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:22.44,0:20:25.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when they're beginning to\Nsneak up under – into speech –
Dialogue: 0,0:20:25.52,0:20:28.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It will be a place where\Nthey'll point to all kinds of things,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:28.36,0:20:33.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and make some kind of\Ninsistent noise: "Mmm mmm."
Dialogue: 0,0:20:33.08,0:20:38.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The tendency for a lot of people is to think\Nthat they're saying that they want that.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:38.24,0:20:40.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They point to the clock,\Nthey point to this, and they go,
Dialogue: 0,0:20:40.08,0:20:42.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Mmm mmm," and people say,\N"No, you can't have it."
Dialogue: 0,0:20:42.36,0:20:44.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They don't want it~\NThey want to know what it's called.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:44.72,0:20:46.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They want to hear the name of it.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:46.76,0:20:48.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Simple as that~\NI say simple.
Dialogue: 0,0:20:48.46,0:20:52.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It took me quite a number of years\Nto figure it out. [Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:20:54.52,0:20:55.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they ask questions –
Dialogue: 0,0:20:55.80,0:21:09.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we can answer their questions\Nwhen they ask them –
Dialogue: 0,0:21:09.04,0:21:18.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,give help if and when it is asked for,\Nand not too much at a time,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:18.48,0:21:22.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and give a kind of demonstration just\Nby our being there and our doing things –
Dialogue: 0,0:21:22.80,0:21:28.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,give the kind of demonstration of\Nvarious sorts of adult skill and competence,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:31.28,0:21:36.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and pay a kind of affectionate,\Nrespectful attention to what they're doing,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:36.96,0:21:41.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,without making some\Nhuge, big deal of it,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:41.20,0:21:43.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and give them a kind of moral support
Dialogue: 0,0:21:43.16,0:21:48.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in this adventure of\Ntrying to make sense of the world –
Dialogue: 0,0:21:48.72,0:21:50.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the best way\Nto give this moral support
Dialogue: 0,0:21:50.72,0:21:52.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is, in fact,\Nto trust them,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:52.60,0:21:57.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to understand that they are, indeed,\Npassionately eager to learn about the world,
Dialogue: 0,0:21:57.76,0:22:02.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,extremely good at doing it,\Nand will, in fact, do it –
Dialogue: 0,0:22:02.32,0:22:05.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in their own way, in their own time.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:05.36,0:22:07.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Not to say they're going to know\Neverything about everything,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:07.24,0:22:13.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but nobody does –\Nand that's how we can help.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:13.32,0:22:20.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But ours is a very minor role,\Nand theirs is the major one.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:20.68,0:22:23.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay, well, I'm preaching\Nto the converted, I know. [Chuckles]
Dialogue: 0,0:22:23.32,0:22:26.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you weren't already half convinced\Nof this, you wouldn't be here.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:26.52,0:22:32.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I want to\Nsay it anyway.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:32.72,0:22:35.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All right, now, the next part of my talk\Nis about something different.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:35.28,0:22:37.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Much of this conference\Nhas to do with the future,
Dialogue: 0,0:22:37.36,0:22:44.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I want to talk a little bit about the future\Nof homeschooling and the near-run future –
Dialogue: 0,0:22:44.80,0:22:54.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the next 10 years or so – and by extension,\Nto some degree, of alternative schools.
Dialogue: 0,0:22:54.36,0:22:57.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We are –\Nfrom a legislative –
Dialogue: 0,0:22:57.50,0:22:58.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[A woman comes forward.]\NYes?
Dialogue: 0,0:22:58.44,0:23:00.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Woman: Is it possible to ask you questions\Nbefore you go on to the next –?
Dialogue: 0,0:23:00.92,0:23:03.53,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John: Yeah, yeah, sure.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:03.54,0:23:03.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Woman: I see. Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:03.55,0:23:06.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John: Now, you don't have\Nall these electronics at your disposal,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:06.00,0:23:22.57,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so you've got to speak up –\Nand not too fast.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:22.57,0:23:22.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Woman: Okay, I don't have a loud\Nvoice, I don't know whether it carries.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:22.64,0:23:22.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You certainly are convincing.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:22.67,0:23:22.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I agree with what you say that\Nwe are not going to convince.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:22.73,0:23:22.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,On that part, I'm going to disagree\Nin terms of people connected with you.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:22.80,0:23:26.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I wonder what\Nyou have to say,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:26.72,0:23:35.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or how you feel about what I believe is\Na necessity to transmute this imperative.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:35.12,0:23:41.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And this is perhaps something\Nthat can be picked up.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:41.35,0:23:41.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I agree children aren't\Nall the same, God knows.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:41.39,0:23:53.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we also need, I think, some input in\Nterms of direction, guidance and exposure,
Dialogue: 0,0:23:53.46,0:23:53.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and input in regard to the\Nheritage that is [inaudible].
Dialogue: 0,0:23:53.51,0:23:55.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John: All right, that's a good question~\NWoman: Okay.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:55.23,0:23:56.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John: I'm familiar with it.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:56.52,0:23:57.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've heard it.
Dialogue: 0,0:23:57.68,0:24:01.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'd love to answer it, perhaps\Njust take out very, very briefly now,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:01.00,0:24:04.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we can go back to it later\Nand spend more time on it.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:04.52,0:24:07.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's extremely important,\Nin the first place,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:07.48,0:24:11.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in thinking about these things,\Nto use language accurately.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:11.64,0:24:13.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we really\Nhave to understand
Dialogue: 0,0:24:13.76,0:24:17.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the difference between\Nexposure and coercion.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:17.16,0:24:19.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, there's a big difference\Nbetween putting –
Dialogue: 0,0:24:19.24,0:24:23.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, we just\Nwent out to dinner.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:23.24,0:24:27.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Baskins, and I and Heather,\Nwe just had dinner together.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:27.24,0:24:28.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there was the menu,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:28.24,0:24:31.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and there were things\Non different people's plates,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:31.76,0:24:35.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we would say, "Here are\Nsome capers in front of my veal."
Dialogue: 0,0:24:35.56,0:24:38.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so we said to Heather,\N"Would you like to try caper?"
Dialogue: 0,0:24:38.60,0:24:41.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Heather did not want to try a caper.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:41.52,0:24:43.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, that's exposure.
Dialogue: 0,0:24:43.26,0:24:46.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are different kinds of food there,\Nand we say, "Would you like to try some?"
Dialogue: 0,0:24:46.88,0:24:47.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"No."
Dialogue: 0,0:24:47.32,0:24:47.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Okay."
Dialogue: 0,0:24:47.84,0:24:48.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"No."
Dialogue: 0,0:24:48.92,0:24:50.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's not at all\Nthe same thing as
Dialogue: 0,0:24:50.52,0:24:52.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,putting some capers\Nin front of Heather and saying,
Dialogue: 0,0:24:52.48,0:24:54.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"You can't leave the table\Nuntil you've eaten them,"
Dialogue: 0,0:24:54.28,0:24:55.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or, "You can't have any dessert,"
Dialogue: 0,0:24:55.44,0:24:58.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or holding her by the nose\Nand pushing one in,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:01.92,0:25:06.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is exposure as it is\Npracticed in formal education.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:06.12,0:25:08.50,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There's no exposure unless\Nyou can't say no to it.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:08.50,0:25:11.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you can't say no,\Nit's coercion.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:11.44,0:25:16.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Really very, very, very important\Nto understand that difference,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:16.24,0:25:17.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's difficult, apparently.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:17.80,0:25:22.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, I'm just going to\Nassert for the moment
Dialogue: 0,0:25:22.12,0:25:25.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I am opposed to\Nall forms of coerced –
Dialogue: 0,0:25:25.48,0:25:28.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or all attempts\Nto coerce learning.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:28.56,0:25:32.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I meant to say after I had said\Nthat learning is not the product of teaching,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:32.98,0:25:37.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I meant to say that teaching which\Nhas not been asked for by the learner –
Dialogue: 0,0:25:37.84,0:25:42.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,virtually without exception –\Nimpedes and prevents learning,
Dialogue: 0,0:25:42.24,0:25:48.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and before very long will kill\Nmost of the desire for learning itself.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:48.04,0:25:54.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I will say that forced learning\Nis faked learning.
Dialogue: 0,0:25:54.20,0:25:58.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I had the great traditions of culture,\Netc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. –
Dialogue: 0,0:25:58.96,0:26:03.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by which I suppose we mean\NShakespeare or whatever – thrust at me.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:03.52,0:26:05.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I was clever about\Nplaying the school game.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:05.52,0:26:06.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I could do that trick.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:06.60,0:26:08.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And so I got\Nmy A's and B's,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:08.24,0:26:11.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and went to high-powered\Nschools and colleges, and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:11.04,0:26:15.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Most of the people who are told\Nto play this trick cannot play it,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:15.24,0:26:21.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,don't play it well,\Nfail to play it altogether.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:22.72,0:26:23.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have to understand,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:23.44,0:26:25.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we're going to probably have\Nto agree to disagree about this,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:25.76,0:26:28.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because nobody\Nis going to be –
Dialogue: 0,0:26:28.40,0:26:33.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,nobody who walks into a room\Nbelieving in some kind of forced learning
Dialogue: 0,0:26:33.04,0:26:35.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is going to walk out of the room\Nnot believing in it
Dialogue: 0,0:26:35.48,0:26:39.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because they've heard me preach\Nthis little mini-sermon about it.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:39.44,0:26:41.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I want you\Nto be very clear about –
Dialogue: 0,0:26:42.08,0:26:43.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I should say,\Nby the way,
Dialogue: 0,0:26:43.20,0:26:51.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I suspect that the number of\Nhomeschoolers or alternative school people
Dialogue: 0,0:26:51.84,0:26:56.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who really agree with me\Nis probably well under 50%.
Dialogue: 0,0:26:56.36,0:27:02.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, I think this is a minority view,\Neven among homeschoolers.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:02.12,0:27:10.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You don't have to believe what I just said to\Nbe a homeschooler or run an alternative school.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:10.48,0:27:12.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I'm the one who's sitting up here 
Dialogue: 0,0:27:12.08,0:27:17.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that's what I think. \N[Laughter] {I think - you see}
Dialogue: 0,0:27:17.52,0:27:23.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If it is part of the cultural tradition,\Nit is there.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:23.60,0:27:26.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Children are very interested\Nin what is there,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:26.76,0:27:31.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they're extremely interested\Nin what is most interesting to us.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:31.12,0:27:34.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And Shakespeare\Nis not interesting to adults,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:34.00,0:27:39.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,except a handful of English teachers\Nwho make a specialty of teaching,
Dialogue: 0,0:27:40.28,0:27:42.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a fairly small\Nhandful of actors
Dialogue: 0,0:27:42.20,0:27:45.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who every so often take a shot\Nat producing one of his plays.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:45.46,0:27:47.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It usually loses money.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:47.48,0:27:52.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But other than that,\Npeople don't read it.
Dialogue: 0,0:27:52.03,0:27:58.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All right, I don't want to\Ngo on too long [inaudible].
Dialogue: 0,0:27:58.44,0:28:03.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But what people really care about –\Na good example is music.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:03.00,0:28:05.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are not very many\Nhouseholds in the United States
Dialogue: 0,0:28:05.92,0:28:10.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where people read Shakespeare\Njust for the sheer, solid pleasure of doing it.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:10.36,0:28:12.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They get this.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:12.36,0:28:13.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I've just been reading\Nsome of the plays.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:13.80,0:28:15.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, some of\Nthe tragedies are lovely.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:15.60,0:28:18.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I don't know\Nanything in the world
Dialogue: 0,0:28:18.04,0:28:21.46,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,less funny than Shakespeare\Ntrying to be funny.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:21.46,0:28:23.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Mmm!
Dialogue: 0,0:28:23.20,0:28:28.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Maybe someday, some really bold soul will\Ncut out those ponderous exchanges of puns.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:28.60,0:28:31.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It will be a great day for\Nthe Bard when that happens.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:31.40,0:28:33.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, they rolled in the aisles\Nwhen he wrote this stuff,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:33.56,0:28:34.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and he knew that.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:34.28,0:28:36.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He was a practical man\Nin the theater.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:36.84,0:28:38.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He put it in because he knew\Nit would make people laugh.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:38.72,0:28:45.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It doesn't make people laugh anymore,\Nit just makes you turn the page.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:45.40,0:28:48.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there are hundreds and\Nhundreds of thousands of families
Dialogue: 0,0:28:48.92,0:28:51.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where music is\Na central part of their lives,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:51.92,0:28:55.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as it's a central part of mine,\Nand in those families,
Dialogue: 0,0:28:55.32,0:28:58.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very, very few children\Nare indifferent to music.
Dialogue: 0,0:28:58.76,0:29:02.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or let's say gardening\Nif gardening is your passion –
Dialogue: 0,0:29:02.60,0:29:04.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or whatever it may be.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:04.64,0:29:08.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Children can tell from\Nwhat we do what sorts of things
Dialogue: 0,0:29:08.08,0:29:09.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,make the most\Ndifference to us.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:09.96,0:29:13.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And those are the things,\Ngenerally speaking, that interest them most,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:13.48,0:29:16.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unless they've gotten into\Nsome rebellion kick,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:16.20,0:29:19.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that doesn't happen\Nmuch in homeschooling.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:19.00,0:29:23.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I'll ask you to let me leave it\Nat that for the time being.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:24.80,0:29:29.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,No, I do not think this body\Nof whatever it is,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:29.24,0:29:33.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or this cultural tradition,\Nor whatever it is, needs to be,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:33.76,0:29:42.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or indeed can be, forced into people\Nunder pressure by coercion.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:42.00,0:29:43.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you really\Nlove Shakespeare,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:43.72,0:29:46.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,go see Shakespeare plays\Nwhere they're performed,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:46.40,0:29:48.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and take your kids with you,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:48.04,0:29:50.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or even get a bunch of people together\Nin your neighborhood and town,
Dialogue: 0,0:29:50.76,0:29:56.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and put on an amateur production,\Nand let your kids be part of the operation.
Dialogue: 0,0:29:56.48,0:30:01.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In fact, if you really love Shakespeare,\Nyou ought to be doing it anyway –
Dialogue: 0,0:30:01.28,0:30:02.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or whatever it is.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:02.24,0:30:03.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you love music,\Nmake music.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:03.64,0:30:05.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you love gardening,\Ngrow a garden.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:05.28,0:30:08.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you love camping in the woods,\Ngo camping in the woods.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:08.20,0:30:10.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you love –\NI don't care what it is.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:10.20,0:30:20.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But children sense that the world they get\Nfrom the things that we care most about.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:20.04,0:30:23.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All right. {Let me - }
Dialogue: 0,0:30:23.68,0:30:26.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't mean by what I say to imply 
Dialogue: 0,0:30:26.12,0:30:28.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that I've been sort of diverted \Nor something.{That's very -}
Dialogue: 0,0:30:28.28,0:30:30.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's a very central issue,\Nand I'm glad you asked -
Dialogue: 0,0:30:30.48,0:30:35.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm glad you\Nraised that point.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:35.32,0:30:38.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The homeschooling movement\Nis in the middle of
Dialogue: 0,0:30:38.80,0:30:41.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,an extremely interesting\Nand important period
Dialogue: 0,0:30:41.60,0:30:52.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of political and legislative change –\Nand judicial, too, I would say.
Dialogue: 0,0:30:52.04,0:30:55.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Ten years ago, five years ago,\NI think you could have said accurately
Dialogue: 0,0:30:55.40,0:30:59.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that the great majority of people\Nwho were teaching their own kids,
Dialogue: 0,0:30:59.96,0:31:05.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and not just underground,\Nnot just hiding out, were doing it -
Dialogue: 0,0:31:05.68,0:31:07.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,were making use of\Nwhat you would have to call
Dialogue: 0,0:31:07.64,0:31:12.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,loopholes in the law\Nof one kind or another.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:12.40,0:31:15.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Things which had been put in the law\Nnot with homeschooling in mind,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:15.60,0:31:20.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but with something quite different.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:20.08,0:31:23.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In many places,\Nin many states around the country,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:23.20,0:31:26.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the compulsory school attendance laws\Nhad some kind of a clause in them
Dialogue: 0,0:31:26.92,0:31:28.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about kids have to\Ngo to school
Dialogue: 0,0:31:28.80,0:31:33.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or get some equivalent kind\Nof instruction or education.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:33.16,0:31:38.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, this clause was not put into the law\Nto make things easy for homeschoolers,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:38.76,0:31:40.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but to take care\Nof children who,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:40.24,0:31:43.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for mostly medical reasons,\Nwere not able to go to school.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:43.88,0:31:48.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they were probably thinking of\Nretarded or emotionally disturbed children
Dialogue: 0,0:31:48.32,0:31:50.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who couldn't go\Nto school because
Dialogue: 0,0:31:50.20,0:31:52.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the schools didn't want them,\Nor couldn't handle them.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:52.32,0:31:57.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So they wanted to make\Nsome kind of legal alternative.
Dialogue: 0,0:31:57.56,0:31:59.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The farthest thing they could\Nhave had from their minds,
Dialogue: 0,0:31:59.76,0:32:02.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the legislatures, when\Nthey put these clauses in,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:02.68,0:32:06.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was that people who had the choice\Nof sending their kids to school,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:06.24,0:32:11.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people whose kids were,\Nas they say, normal,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:11.64,0:32:13.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would decide that they didn't\Nwant to send them to school
Dialogue: 0,0:32:13.48,0:32:15.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so they could\Nteach them themselves.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:15.32,0:32:16.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nevertheless, there was\Nthat loophole.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:16.96,0:32:20.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And for a while, in lots of places,\Npeople were slipping through.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:20.60,0:32:23.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The other great loophole\Nwas the private school loophole
Dialogue: 0,0:32:23.68,0:32:27.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where many states in the country in which\Nprivate schools were not regulated by law
Dialogue: 0,0:32:28.44,0:32:32.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or not regulated by\Nthe compulsory school attendance law –
Dialogue: 0,0:32:32.60,0:32:36.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, that was not done\Nto make homeschooling possible.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:36.80,0:32:41.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was done for\Nquite other sorts of reasons.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:41.48,0:32:45.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,When legislators decided that\Nprivate schools would not be regulated,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:45.16,0:32:47.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was to\Na large degree
Dialogue: 0,0:32:47.56,0:32:50.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because private schools\Nhad their own police mechanisms,
Dialogue: 0,0:32:50.72,0:32:55.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they - what you would call a non-alternative\Nindependent or private schools.
Dialogue: 0,0:32:55.72,0:32:57.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The rich folks'\Nprivate schools have
Dialogue: 0,0:32:57.32,0:33:01.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,their own National Association\Nof Independent Schools,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:01.12,0:33:03.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Midwestern Association of\NIndependent Schools –
Dialogue: 0,0:33:03.40,0:33:04.35,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,New England –
Dialogue: 0,0:33:04.35,0:33:07.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, they have their own inspectors,\Nand their own checkers-uppers-on,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:07.72,0:33:11.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and so forth,\Nand so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:11.60,0:33:13.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, they were not sort of\Nflying free in the air.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:13.96,0:33:17.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Also, legislators, I think,\Ntend to operate on the assumption
Dialogue: 0,0:33:17.48,0:33:22.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that rich people know\Nwhat they're doing – you know?
Dialogue: 0,0:33:22.92,0:33:27.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They say,\N"Private schools are expensive,"
Dialogue: 0,0:33:27.00,0:33:30.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or at least they used to be\Nthought of that way,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:30.16,0:33:32.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that's what\Nlegislators were thinking
Dialogue: 0,0:33:32.28,0:33:37.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when they decided\Nnot to try to regulate them.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:37.40,0:33:41.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they said, "If you've got 50 or\Na hundred fairly wealthy families,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:41.36,0:33:43.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they're all\Nsatisfied with the school,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:43.84,0:33:47.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,chances are something\Nhas got to be going on there.".
Dialogue: 0,0:33:47.08,0:33:52.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Rich people are not terribly innovative,\Nas a general rule. [Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:33:52.79,0:33:54.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John: "And in any case,\Nsince they're rich,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:54.08,0:33:55.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even if their kids goof up,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:55.20,0:33:56.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,they'll always be able\Nto take care of them,
Dialogue: 0,0:33:56.84,0:33:59.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so we don't have to worry\Nabout their being on welfare.
Dialogue: 0,0:33:59.16,0:34:04.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So generally speaking,\Nwe can let them alone."
Dialogue: 0,0:34:04.44,0:34:07.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But the farthest thing in the world\Nthey had in mind
Dialogue: 0,0:34:07.40,0:34:11.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was that this would be used in the way\Nthat homeschoolers started to use it.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:11.28,0:34:14.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, that's where we were\Nroughly five or six years ago,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:14.60,0:34:19.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we were all happily crawling\Nunder this fence, as it were,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:19.24,0:34:25.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,pulling up the barbed wire, and\Nslipping under the bottom strand
Dialogue: 0,0:34:25.02,0:34:26.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[chuckles] – and it was\Nvery nice while it lasted.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:26.92,0:34:31.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, there was no regulation,\Nand no tests, and no papers to fill out.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:31.60,0:34:33.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Some states built\Na one-page something or other
Dialogue: 0,0:34:33.84,0:34:41.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about "my home is a private school,"\Nand it was very nice,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:41.36,0:34:45.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it perfectly obviously\Nwasn't going to last.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:45.32,0:34:47.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was obvious to me\Nthat it wasn't going to last.
Dialogue: 0,0:34:47.10,0:34:51.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It could not be made to last –\Nthat as we got bigger and stronger,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:51.12,0:34:55.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and got to be heard more\Nof in one thing or another,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:55.40,0:34:59.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that people, the courts,\Nthe public schools themselves,
Dialogue: 0,0:34:59.12,0:35:02.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the legislatures were going to\Nbegin to pay attention and say,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:02.20,0:35:07.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Hey, what about this?
Dialogue: 0,0:35:07.80,0:35:16.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, roughly about two or three years ago,\Nwe began to see – I say roughly –
Dialogue: 0,0:35:16.52,0:35:19.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it differs rom state to state –
Dialogue: 0,0:35:19.20,0:35:21.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but we began to see\Nthe beginnings of attempts –
Dialogue: 0,0:35:21.48,0:35:23.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in some cases in the form of laws,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:23.48,0:35:27.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and in some cases in the form \Nof administrative regulations –
Dialogue: 0,0:35:27.32,0:35:31.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,attempts to make homeschooling illegal\Nor virtually impossible –
Dialogue: 0,0:35:31.88,0:35:38.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in Maryland, and Georgia, and\Nin other states – for a while in California,
Dialogue: 0,0:35:38.68,0:35:42.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which had been one of\Nour chief homeschooling states –
Dialogue: 0,0:35:42.12,0:35:48.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the authorities began to try to think of\Nways of making this very difficult.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:48.88,0:35:52.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And a couple of years ago,\Nwe at Growing Without Schooling
Dialogue: 0,0:35:52.84,0:35:59.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,certainly felt that the homeschooling movement\Nwas in a kind of fight for its life.
Dialogue: 0,0:35:59.34,0:36:01.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I don't mean to say\Nthat the fight isn't over,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:01.44,0:36:07.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but in fact, none of those attempts\Nto rule out homeschooling, stamp it out,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:07.52,0:36:10.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,make it impossible,\Nnone of them succeeded.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:10.60,0:36:18.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In no place has a legislature written a kind of\Nanti-homeschooling law in that sense.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:18.04,0:36:26.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We've been under lots of pressure,\Nlots of pressure to do so.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:26.60,0:36:27.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{What they did start doing is}
Dialogue: 0,0:36:28.56,0:36:34.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I should say a similar thing was happening\Nin the courts in a number of states
Dialogue: 0,0:36:34.20,0:36:37.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which people had been homeschooling\Nthrough the private school option.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:37.64,0:36:41.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The courts began to say a home\Nall by itself can't be a private school.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:41.20,0:36:45.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That was our situation in Virginia\Nbefore the law was passed there.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:45.92,0:36:48.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So the loopholes\Nwere being closed up.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:48.72,0:36:54.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The fence was being repaired so that\Nanimals couldn't get up through the bottom.
Dialogue: 0,0:36:54.36,0:36:55.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But at the same time,
Dialogue: 0,0:36:55.40,0:36:59.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the legislatures began to put\Nsome kind of a gate in the fence.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:00.40,0:37:03.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One way or another, they \Nbegan to try to legitimize
Dialogue: 0,0:37:03.72,0:37:06.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,homeschooling, to make it \Nexplicitly legal, and say,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:06.56,0:37:12.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Yes, people can teach their own kids\Nif they do this, that, or the other."
Dialogue: 0,0:37:12.16,0:37:12.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Since then,\Nthere've been
Dialogue: 0,0:37:14.00,0:37:16.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a considerable number\Nof these kinds of laws passed.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:16.48,0:37:17.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I lose track.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:18.20,0:37:22.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In GWS 44, I think – in fact,\Nwhen we sent it to press,
Dialogue: 0,0:37:22.88,0:37:26.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we said there were 14 states\Nconsidering such laws.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:26.12,0:37:29.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I believe that since then,\Nat least three of them, maybe four –
Dialogue: 0,0:37:29.08,0:37:34.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Arkansas, Wyoming,\NNew Mexico, state of Washington –
Dialogue: 0,0:37:34.76,0:37:37.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we had a very tough time\Nin the state of Washington –
Dialogue: 0,0:37:37.68,0:37:46.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,have passed one or another\Nkinds of legislation
Dialogue: 0,0:37:46.12,0:37:50.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,making homeschooling explicitly legal\Nwith this, that, or the other condition.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:50.12,0:37:53.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And we expect\Nmany more states to do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:53.68,0:37:57.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We'll probably see more even before\Nthe end of this legislative session.
Dialogue: 0,0:37:57.60,0:37:59.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I would hazard\Na rough guess
Dialogue: 0,0:37:59.00,0:38:03.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that we'll continue to see half a dozen\Nor a dozen states a year doing this,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:03.36,0:38:07.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and dozens, perhaps,\Nto many a year.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:07.16,0:38:11.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I would say that,\Noh, within five years,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:11.28,0:38:14.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we will probably\Nsee very few states
Dialogue: 0,0:38:14.20,0:38:16.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which there is not\Nsome explicit reference
Dialogue: 0,0:38:16.52,0:38:22.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to homeschooling in the law.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:22.92,0:38:27.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, I consider this an extraordinarily\Nimportant move forward, even though,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:27.60,0:38:33.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in many cases, I'm not happy with\Nthe qualifying restrictions.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:33.32,0:38:40.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Many of them talk about the use of\Nstandardized achievement tests.
Dialogue: 0,0:38:41.60,0:38:45.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Though that is not a problem\Nfor probably 80% of homeschoolers,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:45.64,0:38:47.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it can be\Na very serious problem
Dialogue: 0,0:38:47.40,0:38:53.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for people whose children are late starters\Nin reading, or in whatever else it may be,
Dialogue: 0,0:38:53.80,0:38:57.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or happen not to like arithmetic,\Nor be a little afraid of it, or something.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:01.16,0:39:05.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think it's\Na very important step forward
Dialogue: 0,0:39:05.44,0:39:19.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that legislators are beginning to see\Nhomeschooling as a legitimate activity,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:19.48,0:39:25.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,rather than some kind of\Nweird, strange, outlaw idea.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:25.24,0:39:32.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, what I think we have to do, along with\Ngetting more of these kinds of laws passed –
Dialogue: 0,0:39:32.08,0:39:40.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we'll probably be 10 or 15 years at it –\Nis educating the legislatures,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:40.44,0:39:44.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and particularly\Nthe individual legislators –
Dialogue: 0,0:39:44.60,0:39:51.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,away from rigid curriculums,\Nstandardized achievement tests,
Dialogue: 0,0:39:51.16,0:39:55.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,all kinds of attempts to reduce\Nhuman beings to numbers.
Dialogue: 0,0:39:58.04,0:40:01.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think a lot of them are ready\Nto say now, in fact,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:01.40,0:40:02.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Well, yeah, people\Ncan teach their own kids
Dialogue: 0,0:40:02.88,0:40:04.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if they do it just the way\Nthe schools do it."
Dialogue: 0,0:40:04.68,0:40:07.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that's obviously\Nnot satisfactory.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:07.64,0:40:11.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we have to get them to see –\Nin one way or another,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:11.56,0:40:14.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to get into law\Nat least some of the spirit
Dialogue: 0,0:40:14.84,0:40:16.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in which I talked to you\Nat the beginning of this meeting –
Dialogue: 0,0:40:16.92,0:40:26.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some feeling that there are other ways\Nbesides the rigid curriculums of schools,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:26.24,0:40:28.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and the endless\Nlittle numerical tests.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:28.56,0:40:33.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are other ways of\Nobserving and taking note of learning,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:33.20,0:40:36.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of observing children's growth\Nin the world, and so forth.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:36.30,0:40:40.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, this is already being done,\Nof course, in some places.
Dialogue: 0,0:40:40.68,0:40:45.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I would like to see,\Nfor example, something in the law,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:45.16,0:40:48.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,some kind of amendment\Nsomewhere down the line
Dialogue: 0,0:40:48.96,0:40:51.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,saying that parents and\Neducational authorities,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:51.72,0:40:54.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in evaluating\Nthe learning of children,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:54.04,0:40:59.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,may use, but shall not be required\Nto use or restricted to using,
Dialogue: 0,0:40:59.04,0:41:03.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,standardized and\Nother numerical tests.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:03.88,0:41:05.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't think\Nvery many legislatures
Dialogue: 0,0:41:05.56,0:41:09.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would pass such a resolution\Nif we introduced it tomorrow.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:09.76,0:41:11.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think if we do\Nthe right sorts of things,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:11.84,0:41:14.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that it's very possible that\Na great many of them
Dialogue: 0,0:41:14.00,0:41:22.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,will do so by, let's say,\Na decade from now.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:22.60,0:41:24.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I speak of educating legislators,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:24.64,0:41:26.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I'm not at all\Nthinking of lobbying groups.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:26.88,0:41:29.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What I have in mind\Nis that homeschoolers –
Dialogue: 0,0:41:29.82,0:41:34.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and also, again, insofar as\Nthey are encumbered by the law –
Dialogue: 0,0:41:34.66,0:41:39.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,alternative schoolers must get to know\Ntheir own legislators personally,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:39.76,0:41:42.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,individually, meet them,\Ngo see them,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:42.32,0:41:46.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,take their children,\Nbecome a kind of pen pal,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:46.32,0:41:48.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,write them occasional letters saying,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:48.80,0:41:52.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Thought you might be interested to hear\Nwhat my kids are up to recently.
Dialogue: 0,0:41:52.16,0:41:53.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The other day we went,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:53.80,0:41:58.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and my eight-year-old child\Ntook 25 books out of the library,
Dialogue: 0,0:41:58.36,0:42:00.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is more books than\Nmost school kids read
Dialogue: 0,0:42:00.34,0:42:04.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a year,\Nor two, or five."
Dialogue: 0,0:42:06.24,0:42:08.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have got to\Nbegin to get into
Dialogue: 0,0:42:08.68,0:42:12.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a kind of continuing communication\Nwith these people,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:12.16,0:42:15.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,so they begin to understand,\Nas we understand,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:15.36,0:42:19.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how this organic,\Nnatural learning takes place.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:19.96,0:42:22.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And of course, if bad bills\Nget introduced, of course,
Dialogue: 0,0:42:22.72,0:42:26.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we all have to hustle down to\Nthe state capitol and do that number –
Dialogue: 0,0:42:26.20,0:42:29.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and obviously,\Nwe've been very good at it.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:29.52,0:42:30.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that's not all.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:30.52,0:42:34.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, "I don't write my legislator\Nexcept when some kind of legislation
Dialogue: 0,0:42:34.76,0:42:36.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is coming up that I'm worried about,"
Dialogue: 0,0:42:36.52,0:42:38.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this doesn't seem to me\Nto be enough.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:38.04,0:42:42.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I really think we have to try –\Nas far as we can –
Dialogue: 0,0:42:42.84,0:42:47.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we have to try to bring these people\Ninto the homeschooling family –
Dialogue: 0,0:42:47.64,0:42:52.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it is a family –\Na collection of families.
Dialogue: 0,0:42:52.52,0:42:58.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So I see this as the main part
Dialogue: 0,0:42:58.48,0:43:04.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the future of homeschooling\Nin the next decade or so.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:04.56,0:43:08.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think alternative schools\Ncan play a very important part in this –
Dialogue: 0,0:43:08.48,0:43:11.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as indeed the Clonlara School\Nand the Santa Fe Community School
Dialogue: 0,0:43:11.84,0:43:14.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and a number\Nof others already have –
Dialogue: 0,0:43:14.08,0:43:21.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,by providing a kind of\Nsupport for homeschooling families.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:22.04,0:43:24.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't know if Santa Fe\Nwas the first school to do that.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:24.71,0:43:27.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was the first one I knew about\Nthat was doing it – but anyway.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:28.72,0:43:33.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And by now,\Nwe have a number of
Dialogue: 0,0:43:33.32,0:43:36.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,independent alternative schools\Naround the country,
Dialogue: 0,0:43:36.08,0:43:41.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which not only have\Ntheir own buildings and classes –
Dialogue: 0,0:43:41.92,0:43:43.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there's a physical school\Nthere in place –
Dialogue: 0,0:43:43.56,0:43:49.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but they also provide a kind of\Nlegal and educational support
Dialogue: 0,0:43:49.72,0:43:51.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to homeschooling families.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:51.00,0:43:55.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Many of you might be on the\Nother end of the country.
Dialogue: 0,0:43:55.32,0:44:01.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I would like to see a much larger network\Nof these kinds of schools.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:01.52,0:44:05.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We now have – oh, I guess around\Nthe United States – several dozen.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:05.84,0:44:07.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But we'd be in a very\Nmuch stronger position
Dialogue: 0,0:44:07.76,0:44:11.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if we had many\Nhundreds of them.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:11.60,0:44:15.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's see here.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:15.84,0:44:22.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Excuse me a sec here.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:22.96,0:44:26.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Amazing machines here.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:26.04,0:44:29.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think these\Nsmall tape recorders –
Dialogue: 0,0:44:29.16,0:44:34.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they now have really\Nquite astonishing sound quality –
Dialogue: 0,0:44:34.08,0:44:37.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are one of the great\Neducational tools of our time.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:37.00,0:44:39.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And for all the talk\Nabout computers,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:39.96,0:44:44.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think this is a gadget which has\Nmany other kinds of possibilities,
Dialogue: 0,0:44:44.00,0:44:48.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which I don't think we have done\Nas much with as we might.
Dialogue: 0,0:44:48.32,0:44:53.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Like typewriters, this is a machine which\Nis really fascinating to a lot of children –
Dialogue: 0,0:44:53.40,0:44:59.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the experience of saying things into it\Nand then hearing them back –
Dialogue: 0,0:44:59.32,0:45:01.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very strange,\Nvery powerful.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:05.64,0:45:09.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All right.\NNow, let's see.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:09.08,0:45:13.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, I was talking about\Na very large network –
Dialogue: 0,0:45:13.24,0:45:18.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,hundreds, thousands –\Nof alternative schools,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:18.12,0:45:22.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,independent schools around the country\N– in some cases, public schools –
Dialogue: 0,0:45:22.83,0:45:25.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because there are public schools\Nthat also offer this kind of support.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:25.72,0:45:33.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The number is not very large,\Nbut it's also growing.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:33.96,0:45:34.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,All right, now.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:34.32,0:45:39.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I want to switch to a different –\Nin the last part of this talk,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:39.96,0:45:43.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to a look at the future\Nin a quite different sense –
Dialogue: 0,0:45:43.00,0:45:46.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not the future of homeschooling,\Nor the future of alternative schooling,
Dialogue: 0,0:45:46.28,0:45:53.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the future of the world –\Nparticularly of this country.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:53.76,0:45:55.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,First thing I have to say\Nis that everybody
Dialogue: 0,0:45:55.64,0:45:57.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who talks about\Nthe future is guessing.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:57.48,0:45:58.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nobody knows~\NThere is no future.
Dialogue: 0,0:45:58.80,0:46:00.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It doesn't exist.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:00.08,0:46:03.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It isn't as if we're\Nriding along on a train
Dialogue: 0,0:46:03.36,0:46:05.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and 20 miles down the track,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:05.20,0:46:07.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there was a station that\Nwe were going to pull into,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:07.12,0:46:09.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it was just a matter of\Ntalking about what it was.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:09.72,0:46:20.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The future isn't there~\NWe make it as we live.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:20.68,0:46:21.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,{Most of the people}
Dialogue: 0,0:46:21.48,0:46:23.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm extremely skeptical,\NI have to say,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:23.52,0:46:25.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of most of the people\Nwho are making a living –
Dialogue: 0,0:46:25.36,0:46:29.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and quite a lot of them are,\Nand they're living a lot fancier than I am –
Dialogue: 0,0:46:29.20,0:46:31.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talking about this future.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:31.20,0:46:35.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And mostly what they do is they find\Nsome kind of a graph that goes up to 1985,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:35.44,0:46:38.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then they just keep\Nrunning it up the page.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:38.08,0:46:42.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well If predicting the future\Nwere that easy, we'd all be billionaires,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:42.08,0:46:44.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we'd just look at\Nthe stock market quotations,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:44.36,0:46:47.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and see what stock had been going up\Nfor the last week, and then buy it.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:47.60,0:46:55.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The problem is the graph\Ndoesn't always keep going up.
Dialogue: 0,0:46:55.20,0:46:57.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are an awful lot\Nof high-powered people
Dialogue: 0,0:46:57.24,0:46:59.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in this country connected\Nwith the oil business,
Dialogue: 0,0:46:59.80,0:47:04.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,connected with the government,\Nconnected with the defense industry
Dialogue: 0,0:47:04.00,0:47:08.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who made it their business to know\Nwhat was going on in the world of oil.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:08.32,0:47:11.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And none – not one,\Nnot a single one of these people –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:11.78,0:47:14.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,predicted what came\Nto be called the "oil crisis –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:14.48,0:47:16.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,when was it, ten years ago?
Dialogue: 0,0:47:16.84,0:47:19.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nobody predicted it.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:19.40,0:47:22.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And nobody, with\Na few possible exceptions –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:22.66,0:47:25.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,maybe Amory Lovins,\Nmaybe a few conservationists –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:25.60,0:47:28.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,once we were in the middle of\Nthat terrible crisis –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:28.72,0:47:33.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,predicted that in five or less than 10 years,\Nwe were going to be out of it,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:33.20,0:47:38.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because we would smarten\Nup and start saving energy.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:38.12,0:47:43.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The oil crisis came by surprise\Nand went by surprise.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:43.40,0:47:45.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, it's not easy.
Dialogue: 0,0:47:45.32,0:47:49.47,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of the big\Nfuture books that's –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:49.47,0:47:53.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,boy, I wish I had 10%\Nof the money that it's made –
Dialogue: 0,0:47:53.64,0:47:58.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talks about the Sun Belt\Nand the motion of industry,
Dialogue: 0,0:47:58.48,0:48:01.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the economic flight from\Nthe North to the Sun Belt,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:01.16,0:48:06.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it says this is a major\Ntrend in American history,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:06.04,0:48:08.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's irreversible,\Nand it's going to continue.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:08.00,0:48:09.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We can just see more and\Nmore of this happening.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:09.76,0:48:13.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, I get a certain\Nwry amusement out of this.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:13.08,0:48:16.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I come from the old Frost Belt\Nup there in New England,
Dialogue: 0,0:48:16.72,0:48:20.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and we are the most –\Nas regions go at the moment –
Dialogue: 0,0:48:20.79,0:48:23.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,probably the most economically\Nprosperous region of the country.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:23.76,0:48:25.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We have the lowest\Nunemployment rate.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:25.44,0:48:27.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My home state\Nof Massachusetts has
Dialogue: 0,0:48:27.48,0:48:32.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the lowest unemployment rate \Nin any industrial state.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:32.36,0:48:36.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,My home city of Boston has what they call\Nan office vacancy rate of 1%.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:36.98,0:48:41.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Of course, Houston\Nhas about 30%.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:42.48,0:48:47.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, the old Frost Belt\Nisn't doing too bad.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:47.28,0:48:50.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Right now what we're\Nworried about is drought.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:51.92,0:48:56.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that's going to be\Na big problem for the whole country.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:56.00,0:48:56.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Very, very hard.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:56.92,0:48:59.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But there are some indicators.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:59.08,0:48:59.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Nothing is certain.
Dialogue: 0,0:48:59.88,0:49:02.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are some indicators\Nthat give us, I think,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:02.20,0:49:06.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a pretty strong indication of\Nthe way some things are likely to go.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:06.84,0:49:11.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,There are really big, big,\Ndeep sort of trends,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:11.36,0:49:15.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I want to talk about\Njust one of them tonight.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:15.28,0:49:21.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Coughs]\NExcuse me.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:21.16,0:49:31.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The Boston Globe, our local bladder,\N[laughter] is a kind of nice paper.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:31.32,0:49:32.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't know how much\Nnews is in it,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:32.88,0:49:34.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but it has a lot\Nof good writers,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:34.04,0:49:35.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and they have\Nquite a lot of fun.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:35.80,0:49:45.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So, it's an entertaining sheet,\Nand not bad, as these things go.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:45.32,0:49:48.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It had an article\Na year and a half ago, maybe,
Dialogue: 0,0:49:48.32,0:49:53.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about wages in different parts\Nof the world – industrial wages.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:53.92,0:49:59.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there's a map,\Na nice big-page article.
Dialogue: 0,0:49:59.64,0:50:03.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And they were comparing a\Nverage hourly industrial wages
Dialogue: 0,0:50:03.76,0:50:09.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the world's manufacturing countries.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:09.08,0:50:12.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, economists, I guess,\Ncould spend the whole weekend
Dialogue: 0,0:50:12.24,0:50:14.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,talking about how you\Nachieve these figures,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:14.04,0:50:16.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and how you balance out\Nthis versus that,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:16.00,0:50:19.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,how you figure out benign climates\Nversus cold climates,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:19.32,0:50:21.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and what do you do\Nabout fringe benefits,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:21.76,0:50:22.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and this, that,\Nand the other.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:22.72,0:50:26.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I'm going to accept those figures\Nmore or less as they were given to me.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:27.20,0:50:29.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what it said was\Nthat the United States
Dialogue: 0,0:50:29.60,0:50:32.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,had the highest average\Nhourly industrial wage.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:32.72,0:50:35.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They didn't say what is\Nindustrial and what isn't –
Dialogue: 0,0:50:35.94,0:50:37.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not to get into that.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:37.56,0:50:40.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it was something like\N$10.77 an hour.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:40.96,0:50:43.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there was Canada\Npretty close behind,
Dialogue: 0,0:50:43.44,0:50:47.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Switzerland, and then\Na bunch of the Western European nations –
Dialogue: 0,0:50:47.20,0:50:48.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,$8.00 or so – $7.50.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:49.16,0:50:52.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then, Japan, $5.50.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:53.12,0:50:58.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then Mexico, Brazil,\Nsome down to the $2.00, $2.50 range.
Dialogue: 0,0:50:58.88,0:51:03.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then we got down to\Nwhat they call the Pacific Rim nations:
Dialogue: 0,0:51:03.20,0:51:10.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Taiwan, Hong Kong, South Korea,\Na couple of others maybe,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:10.56,0:51:15.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and these were running\N$1.25, $1.50 an hour.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:15.60,0:51:17.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And then India –
Dialogue: 0,0:51:17.92,0:51:20.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the figure they gave\Nwas $0.39 an hour –
Dialogue: 0,0:51:20.52,0:51:24.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and Sri Lanka – which\Nus old cats used to call Ceylon –
Dialogue: 0,0:51:24.76,0:51:28.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,near India –\Nwas $0.21 an hour.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:28.96,0:51:32.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, those are very,
Dialogue: 0,0:51:32.44,0:51:36.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,very, very significant figures\Ntheir legs will carry them –
Dialogue: 0,0:51:36.28,0:51:42.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At one point in the article,\Nthey quoted a young woman
Dialogue: 0,0:51:42.16,0:51:45.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who's working in one of these\Nnew electronic shops in Hong Kong
Dialogue: 0,0:51:45.68,0:51:48.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where the American\Ncomputer manufacturers
Dialogue: 0,0:51:48.40,0:51:51.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are fleeing just as fast as\Ntheir legs will carry them –
Dialogue: 0,0:51:51.68,0:51:54.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,those that are still\Nin business at all, I should add.
Dialogue: 0,0:51:55.48,0:52:01.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that little future balloon\Nwent down in a big hurry,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:01.80,0:52:06.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and has yet further to go,\NI will add.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:06.12,0:52:10.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That revolution lasted about\Ntwo or three years.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:13.80,0:52:15.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But someone was talking\Nto this young woman
Dialogue: 0,0:52:15.88,0:52:22.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who's earning $1.22 an hour,\Nmaking whatever it is,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:22.72,0:52:26.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and just happy as a clam\Nto be enjoying this wage
Dialogue: 0,0:52:26.32,0:52:29.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which was probably ten times,\Nfive times higher
Dialogue: 0,0:52:29.32,0:52:32.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,than anything they\Nhad seen a decade before.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:32.76,0:52:37.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And she said, "Of course, we know\Nit's only going to be a matter of time
Dialogue: 0,0:52:37.36,0:52:43.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,before the jobs all go to\Nsomeplace like Sri Lanka,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:43.40,0:52:49.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,where they only have\Nto pay $0.21 an hour.
Dialogue: 0,0:52:49.56,0:52:58.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And the picture for me is of jobs\Nas a kind of great flock of migratory birds,
Dialogue: 0,0:52:58.28,0:53:05.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which fly from one place to another\Nand settle down and deposit
Dialogue: 0,0:53:05.16,0:53:08.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,a certain amount of wealth\Nthere while they're there,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:08.28,0:53:09.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but soon they'll\Ntake off again
Dialogue: 0,0:53:09.84,0:53:13.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,l ooking for some other place\Nwhere the wages are even lower.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:13.56,0:53:15.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And that's not\Na bad figure of speech.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:15.24,0:53:18.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We saw that happen in this country\Nwhen the northern industries –
Dialogue: 0,0:53:18.92,0:53:22.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this was certainly true of\Nthe mills in New England –
Dialogue: 0,0:53:22.40,0:53:27.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,went down south where they could get\Nnon-union and cheaper labor.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:30.80,0:53:35.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,With the modern mobility of capital\Nin the multinational corporation,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:35.00,0:53:38.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,jobs do in fact tend to –\Nmany of them anyway –
Dialogue: 0,0:53:38.88,0:53:42.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are pretty free to migrate\Nto where the wages are lowest,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:42.44,0:53:46.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that's where\Nthey're going to roost.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:46.34,0:53:50.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, one of the things\Nthat struck me
Dialogue: 0,0:53:50.12,0:53:52.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about that article was that\Nnothing was said about China.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:52.28,0:53:53.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I found myself wondering,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:53.26,0:53:55.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Hey, where do the Chinese\Nfit into this picture?"
Dialogue: 0,0:53:55.16,0:53:57.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Why, they're probably\Nunder a dollar an hour,
Dialogue: 0,0:53:57.40,0:53:59.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,$0.50 an hour maybe, I thought.
Dialogue: 0,0:53:59.24,0:54:03.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,At any rate, it had to be\Na pretty low figure.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:03.08,0:54:11.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Under a billion people\Nin that country.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:11.40,0:54:18.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Recently, my question was answered\Nmore or less reliably by another article,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:18.36,0:54:23.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,this time in the "Christian Science Monitor,"\Nand this wasn't about economics at all,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:23.64,0:54:26.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it was about\Na British rock group called "Wham,"
Dialogue: 0,0:54:26.12,0:54:28.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which has\Njust gone to China
Dialogue: 0,0:54:28.16,0:54:32.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and caused a great upheaval\Nof various kinds there.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:32.88,0:54:34.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But like all\Nthings Western,
Dialogue: 0,0:54:34.24,0:54:37.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's very popular with\Nthe young people in the new China.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:37.64,0:54:41.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,The article described\Na young Chinese workman
Dialogue: 0,0:54:41.44,0:54:43.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,standing in line\Nfor five or six hours –
Dialogue: 0,0:54:43.84,0:54:49.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just like his American counterparts –\Nto buy a ticket to hear Wham.
Dialogue: 0,0:54:49.24,0:54:52.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it said in passing that\Nhe had to pay – for this ticket –
Dialogue: 0,0:54:52.00,0:55:06.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he had to pay 5 yuan –\Nparenthesis, $1.75 – or 2 days' wages.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:06.48,0:55:09.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Two days' wages.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:09.84,0:55:13.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If you figure an 8-hour day,\Nwe're talking about
Dialogue: 0,0:55:13.60,0:55:18.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just a little bit more\Nthan $0.10 an hour.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:18.56,0:55:20.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And there are\Na billion people over there,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:20.68,0:55:26.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,most of whom are ready and eager\Nto work at that kind of wage.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:29.64,0:55:34.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Now, this is bound to have\Na lot to say about not only our future,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:34.52,0:55:36.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but the future of\Nall of what we think of
Dialogue: 0,0:55:36.68,0:55:44.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as the highly-developed wealthy countries\Nof the North Atlantic, let's say, community.
Dialogue: 0,0:55:44.28,0:55:48.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Given, again,\Nthe mobility of capital,
Dialogue: 0,0:55:48.60,0:55:54.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there is no possible way that\Nthe wealthy countries of the world
Dialogue: 0,0:55:54.00,0:56:02.94,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are going to be able to employ\Ntheir populations at $10 or $9 or $8 or $7,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:02.94,0:56:06.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or for that matter Japan,\N$5.50 an hour.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:06.48,0:56:11.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,They're not going to\Nbe able to do it.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:11.08,0:56:14.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In other words, as nearly as\None can say anything about the future,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:14.88,0:56:17.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it is certain that\Nthe rich countries of the world
Dialogue: 0,0:56:17.00,0:56:26.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,are going to get a lot less rich,\Nas we have defined rich.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:28.88,0:56:32.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And what the consequences of\Nthat may be, we've talked for a long time –
Dialogue: 0,0:56:32.24,0:56:33.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,there could be\Nwhole conferences –
Dialogue: 0,0:56:33.88,0:56:37.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I hope someday here will be\Nif there are not any yet –
Dialogue: 0,0:56:37.60,0:56:39.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about what this really means.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:39.76,0:56:44.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,None of the people who were\Nrunning for election in the last campaign –
Dialogue: 0,0:56:44.32,0:56:47.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,even those who talk\Nglibly about new ideas –
Dialogue: 0,0:56:47.24,0:56:51.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,none of them seem to have\Nthe faintest idea that this is going on,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:51.40,0:56:54.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or what this means,\Nor what they might do with it.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:54.12,0:56:56.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is going to call for\Na lot of hard thinking.
Dialogue: 0,0:56:56.24,0:56:59.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,To say just a very\Nshort thing about us,
Dialogue: 0,0:56:59.26,0:57:01.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'd say we're going to have to\Nrediscover thrift in this country.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:01.84,0:57:02.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're going to\Nhave to discover
Dialogue: 0,0:57:03.76,0:57:07.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that efficiency is not the same thing
Dialogue: 0,0:57:07.64,0:57:10.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as making a lot of stuff.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:10.96,0:57:14.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're going to\Nhave to rediscover –
Dialogue: 0,0:57:14.68,0:57:16.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,learn how to do\Nthe most with the least.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:16.88,0:57:21.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Old New England motto:\N"Wear it out –"
Dialogue: 0,0:57:21.00,0:57:21.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Let's see, no.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:21.64,0:57:24.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Use it up, wear it out,\Nmake it do, do without" –
Dialogue: 0,0:57:24.76,0:57:26.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the old Yankee saying.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:26.40,0:57:30.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Or old Ben's,\N"A penny saved is a penny earned."
Dialogue: 0,0:57:30.72,0:57:32.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're going to rediscover\Nthe truth of that.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:32.48,0:57:38.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,We're going to start learning\Nhow to darn socks again.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:38.04,0:57:39.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't think\Nthat's a bad thing.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:39.44,0:57:44.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think we'll be probably\Na very much better,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:44.08,0:57:48.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,more interesting, more equitable country
Dialogue: 0,0:57:48.12,0:57:52.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if we learn to revise our ideas\Nabout what is true wealth,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:52.08,0:57:55.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what is true efficiency.
Dialogue: 0,0:57:55.24,0:57:56.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But that's a big topic,
Dialogue: 0,0:57:56.24,0:58:00.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's not really the topic\Nwe've come here to discuss.{I just}
Dialogue: 0,0:58:00.48,0:58:03.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,If we're going to be talking\Nor thinking about the future,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:03.08,0:58:09.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think this is an element in it\Nthat we can't afford to neglect.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:09.24,0:58:12.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Okay, well that's all\Nfor the big formal speech,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:12.40,0:58:15.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if it struck you that way.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:16.88,0:58:23.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So now we can move into\Nsome kind of questions, discussion,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:23.20,0:58:26.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,comment on whatever\Nyou want to talk about.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:26.84,0:58:28.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, we can talk about\Nany of the things I've talked about,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:28.96,0:58:31.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or if you came here wanting\Nto talk about something else,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:31.44,0:58:32.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,we can talk about that too,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:32.68,0:58:34.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,unless I don't know\Nanything at all about it,
Dialogue: 0,0:58:34.80,0:58:37.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I will tell you.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:37.36,0:58:39.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can tell you how to\Nbegin on the cello.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:39.84,0:58:43.80,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I can't tell you how to become\Na "magnificent" player.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:43.80,0:58:50.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Well, as soon as I learn,\NI will tell you that.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:50.88,0:58:52.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sir.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:52.16,0:58:52.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jerry Mintz: Hi.
Dialogue: 0,0:58:52.71,0:58:53.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jerry Mintz from\NShaker Mountain  
Dialogue: 0,0:58:53.48,0:58:55.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,School in Vermont.\N{We can't hear you.}
Dialogue: 0,0:58:55.11,0:58:58.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John: Oh, hi, Jerry.\N{I just hope}
Dialogue: 0,0:58:58.76,0:59:01.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jerry:One thing I was thinking\Nabout is that you missed,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:01.00,0:59:03.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,somewhere between\NCeylon and India,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:03.24,0:59:10.28,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the wages of\Nalternative school people.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:10.28,0:59:10.30,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,[Laughter]\NJohn: Yes. Yes.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:10.30,0:59:12.92,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Jerry Mintz: It may mean that\Nthe industry may flock to the free schools.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:12.92,0:59:16.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm not sure.\N[Laughter]
Dialogue: 0,0:59:16.68,0:59:21.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One thing I was wondering about is\Nwhat you think the difference is
Dialogue: 0,0:59:21.84,0:59:27.44,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between parents who are\Nexposing their kids to education
Dialogue: 0,0:59:27.44,0:59:29.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or to learning\Nwithout coercion
Dialogue: 0,0:59:29.56,0:59:34.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and schools that are exposing\Ntheir kids to learning without coercion.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:34.32,0:59:38.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And our school doesn't require kids\Nto go to any particular classes.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:38.32,0:59:40.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And on the other\Nside of the coin,
Dialogue: 0,0:59:40.24,0:59:43.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the difference between parents\Nwho are coercing their kids
Dialogue: 0,0:59:43.24,0:59:46.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and schools that are\Ncoercing their kids.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:46.26,0:59:49.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,John: Well, the key difference\Nfor me is the difference
Dialogue: 0,0:59:49.56,0:59:52.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,between coercion\Nand non-coercion.
Dialogue: 0,0:59:52.36,0:59:58.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In other words, if I thought that\Nthe homeschooling movement
Dialogue: 0,0:59:58.00,1:00:00.76,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was made up\Nlargely or entirely1:00:00.760,1:00:03.240of people who wanted\Nto coerce their kids1:00:03.240,1:00:05.760and just thought they could do\Na better job of it than schools could,1:00:05.760,1:00:09.440I wouldn't have spent\Ntwo minutes on this activity.1:00:09.440,1:00:11.160My interest in homeschooling,1:00:11.160,1:00:12.840and, for that matter,\Nalternative schooling –1:00:12.840,1:00:14.760and I was interested\Nin alternative schools1:00:14.760,1:00:19.120before I became\Ninterested in homeschooling –1:00:19.120,1:00:23.120my interest in it is that\Nit makes it at least possible –1:00:23.120,1:00:25.320for those people who want\Nto give their children1:00:25.320,1:00:29.600a natural, organic, uncoerced\Nlearning experience – to do so.1:00:29.600,1:00:32.280Not everybody is going\Nto use it that way.1:00:32.280,1:00:37.120People start schools\Nwhich they hope will be1:00:37.120,1:00:39.920even more coercive\Nthan the schools that exist.1:00:39.920,1:00:42.640There are certainly some people\Nwho teach their children1:00:42.640,1:00:45.400thinking that they can\Npound in learning faster than1:00:45.400,1:00:47.040the local schools\Nwere doing it.1:00:47.040,1:00:48.960I don't think many of them\Nstick it out very long1:00:48.960,1:00:53.160because they find out\Nit doesn't work.1:00:56.560,1:01:02.600No, I mean, if I look\Nfar enough down the line,1:01:02.600,1:01:12.400I like to think of schools as\Nlearning-experiment activity centers,1:01:12.400,1:01:14.480somewhat analogous\Nto public libraries,1:01:14.480,1:01:17.000although rather\Nwider in scope,1:01:17.000,1:01:20.240places to which people can come\Nif they feel like coming,1:01:20.240,1:01:22.320to do the things\Nthat they want to do1:01:22.320,1:01:24.920for as long as\Nthey want to do them.1:01:24.920,1:01:31.360And {I kind of – } I would hope that\Nsomewhere we would find a way1:01:31.360,1:01:34.840to call these places\Nsomething other than schools1:01:34.840,1:01:37.160because they're really\Nvery fundamentally very different.1:01:37.160,1:01:42.520"Club" would be nice if we just\Nkind of dared to do it. [Laughter]1:01:42.520,1:01:44.680We have a film\Nthat a friend of mine,1:01:44.680,1:01:45.720my friend Peggy Hughes,1:01:45.720,1:01:48.320made in Denmark\Nof the preschool there.1:01:48.320,1:01:51.160The film was called\N"We Have to Call It School."1:01:51.160,1:01:54.200And the film begins with\Nthis young Danish teacher1:01:54.200,1:01:56.920there saying in English,1:01:56.920,1:02:00.120"We have to call it school\Nbecause if we didn't,1:02:00.120,1:02:01.720they wouldn't let\Nthe children come here."1:02:01.720,1:02:03.680[Laughter]1:02:03.680,1:02:06.600But it would be nice if,\Nin our minds,1:02:06.600,1:02:12.560we thought about these\Nnon-coercive gathering-and-activity places1:02:12.560,1:02:15.080as something\Nother than a school.1:02:15.080,1:02:15.920I like "club."1:02:15.920,1:02:18.380I mean, club has a –1:02:18.380,1:02:20.800But you can pick\Nwhat word you like,1:02:20.800,1:02:24.000or invent a brand new one.1:02:25.040,1:02:29.520Ultimately, I suppose I'd like to see\Nall schools evolve this way.1:02:29.520,1:02:32.640I don't think, certainly\Nnot in my lifetime,1:02:32.640,1:02:34.880and not in any future\Nthat I can see,1:02:34.880,1:02:38.160can I imagine\Nlegislatures striking1:02:38.160,1:02:42.320compulsory attendance laws\Noff the books.1:02:42.320,1:02:44.640But I can imagine\Nmore and more schools1:02:44.640,1:02:48.240defining attendance\Nin just the way you define it,1:02:49.880,1:02:51.640so that the difference1:02:51.640,1:02:53.880between being in school\Nand not being in school1:02:53.880,1:02:56.920gets so fuzzed over\Nthat you can't tell any longer1:02:56.920,1:03:02.040when somebody is in\Nor when somebody is out.{now I don't}1:03:02.040,1:03:03.240Have I spoken\Nto your point,1:03:03.240,1:03:05.140or was there something other\Nyou'd like to get out?1:03:05.140,1:03:07.560Jerry: In other words,\Ndo you consider1:03:07.560,1:03:10.760that it would be\Nadvantageous for a parent1:03:10.760,1:03:14.000to homeschool their kid\Nin a non-coercive way,1:03:14.000,1:03:19.945rather than let them go to\Na school that was non-coercive?1:03:19.945,1:03:21.480John: Well, if you're\Na homeschooling parent1:03:21.480,1:03:24.080and there was\Nin your area1:03:24.080,1:03:27.400a non-coercive school\Nthat kids could go to,1:03:30.200,1:03:33.440I would be ready to leave it up to\Nthose children and those parents1:03:33.440,1:03:35.840to decide how much\Nthey wanted to make use of it.1:03:35.840,1:03:40.120Some families, the kids\Nwould be there a lot of the time,1:03:40.120,1:03:42.480and other families, they might\Nnot be there much of the time.1:03:42.480,1:03:44.680I think of my friends,\Nthe Wallaces in Ithaca,1:03:48.080,1:03:51.720their public school system,\Nas a matter of fact, said to them,1:03:51.720,1:03:53.360"You're free to\Ncome and use us1:03:53.360,1:03:56.000anywhere you want\Nor anytime you want to."1:03:56.000,1:03:56.960In fact, there's nothing in1:03:56.960,1:03:58.720the public school\Nfor them to do there.1:03:58.720,1:03:59.720These are, by now,1:03:59.720,1:04:01.720two extraordinarily\Naccomplished musicians,1:04:01.720,1:04:05.480and they spent six, seven, eight,\Nnine, ten hours a day working on music.1:04:05.480,1:04:07.440What in the world\Nare they going to do?1:04:08.160,1:04:09.520What has school\Ngot to offer them?1:04:09.520,1:04:13.120But if you were very interested in\Nthe kinds of things1:04:13.120,1:04:16.200that are likely to be done at school,\Nor something that needed more people –1:04:16.200,1:04:20.880let's say drama, which is\Na hard thing to do in small groups –1:04:20.880,1:04:29.720well, then it might be\Nvery interesting for you to.1:04:29.720,1:04:31.240So if these resources were there,1:04:31.240,1:04:33.480we'd say to people,\Nchildren, their parents,1:04:34.280,1:04:36.200"Those of you who want to\Nuse them a lot, use them a lot.1:04:36.200,1:04:39.680Those of you who want to use them\Noccasionally, use them occasionally.1:04:39.680,1:04:45.040I wouldn't try to make\Nthat decision for anybody.1:04:45.040,1:04:47.240I think most homeschoolers\Nwould be very glad1:04:47.240,1:04:51.240to have some kind of\Ngathering resource.1:04:51.240,1:04:52.840One of the advantages\Nof such a place1:04:52.840,1:04:53.400is that, of course,1:04:53.400,1:04:57.800a gang of people can\Nget together and buy things1:04:57.800,1:05:00.880which none of them by themselves\Nmight be able to afford,1:05:00.880,1:05:02.200– make sufficient use of.1:05:02.200,1:05:04.000Well, they can do it now,\Nbut the question is then,1:05:04.000,1:05:05.120"Whose house is it at?"1:05:05.880,1:05:07.400There get to be\Nproblems like that.1:05:08.120,1:05:11.280If there is a central gathering\Nand meeting place,1:05:11.280,1:05:12.960well that's all the handier.1:05:12.960,1:05:16.960Now, one of\Nthe reasons that I went from1:05:16.960,1:05:19.920thinking about alternative schools\Nto thinking about homeschooling1:05:19.920,1:05:26.440is that most of the alternative schools,\Nin the sense that we're using it here –1:05:26.440,1:05:28.360I mean, the word has\Ngotten so fuzzed up1:05:28.360,1:05:29.840in the public-education system1:05:29.840,1:05:32.200that it no longer has\Nany real meaning.1:05:32.200,1:05:35.720Most of the true alternative schools\Nof the late '60s and the early '70s1:05:35.720,1:05:38.240have long since gone,\Nmostly for lack of money.1:05:38.800,1:05:40.240You know how hard\Na struggle it is,1:05:40.240,1:05:46.360even with Sri Lankan wages.\N[inaudible]. [Laugha]1:05:46.360,1:05:48.480Even with those\Nkinds of sacrifices,1:05:48.480,1:05:51.600very few schools\Nwere ingenious enough,1:05:51.600,1:05:54.880or resourceful, or lucky,\Nor whatever to keep going.1:05:54.880,1:05:56.600We had a gang\Nup in the Boston area.1:05:56.600,1:06:00.960I don't think one –\Nmaybe one, right? –1:06:00.960,1:06:01.800they've all disappeared.1:06:01.800,1:06:03.240A lot of them were\Ndoing wonderful work.1:06:03.240,1:06:08.040So I began thinking,\Nwhat can people do1:06:08.040,1:06:11.320who are not able to get\None of these places going1:06:11.320,1:06:13.000and keep it together?1:06:13.000,1:06:15.040I suppose one of the things\Nwe have to learn is1:06:15.040,1:06:17.920how can we do this\Nin a way that costs less money1:06:17.920,1:06:22.040without starving and\Nnot going into Ethiopian wages,1:06:22.040,1:06:23.680or something like that.\N[Laughter]1:06:23.680,1:06:25.560We don't want\Nto do that.1:06:27.320,1:06:29.840All right, now I'm going to do\Na little number thing with hands,1:06:31.040,1:06:33.640just so I don't forget,\Nor so we keep some kind of order.1:06:33.640,1:06:34.720Is it one here?1:06:34.720,1:06:38.110Did you all –?\NI thought so.1:06:38.110,1:06:38.144Woman: I'm going to\Nask a question.1:06:38.144,1:06:38.920John: All right.\NYou'll be number one.1:06:38.920,1:06:42.000And the second?\NAll right, second here.1:06:42.000,1:06:43.520Third here.1:06:43.520,1:06:47.840Fourth?\NLady in the red dress shirt.1:06:47.840,1:06:48.600Okay.1:06:49.720,1:06:55.880All right.\NFive.1:06:55.880,1:06:57.640Okay.\NNow, you have to remember.1:06:57.640,1:06:58.600Six?\NOkay.1:06:58.600,1:07:00.280You have to\Nremember your numbers,1:07:00.280,1:07:02.500and you have to remember\Nwhere I am in the numbers,1:07:02.500,1:07:09.560because I'm not going to remember\Neither of those things! [Laughter]1:07:09.560,1:07:10.269Yes.1:07:10.269,1:07:12.080Woman: I'm number one.1:07:12.080,1:07:14.640If our children\Nare most interested in1:07:14.640,1:07:18.194the things that we\Nare most interested in –1:07:18.194,1:07:19.060John: They aren't hearing you.1:07:19.060,1:07:21.903Woman: They're not hearing?\NJohn: No way in the world.1:07:21.903,1:07:22.540[Laughter]\NWoman: Okay.1:07:22.540,1:07:24.840John: Got to sing out.\NWoman: Okay.1:07:24.840,1:07:28.055John: I mean, it is possible.1:07:28.055,1:07:29.520Woman: [Laughs]\NThere are a lot of people here.1:07:29.520,1:07:31.480Woman: If our children\Nare most interested1:07:31.480,1:07:33.880in the things that\Nwe are most interested in,1:07:33.880,1:07:38.674are we not then as homeschoolers\Nrearing lopsided children? And –1:07:38.674,1:07:40.234John: Everybody's lopsided.\NWoman: Okay.1:07:40.234,1:07:41.680John: I'm lopsided.\NYou're lopsided.1:07:41.680,1:07:45.113All God's children\Nare lopsided. [Laughter]1:07:45.113,1:07:46.600Woman: And will they fill out?1:07:46.600,1:07:48.360John: Yeah.\NWoman: Okay.1:07:48.360,1:07:50.120John: That doesn't mean to say\Nthey're going to wind up1:07:50.120,1:07:52.960knowing everything about everything,\Nbecause nobody does.1:07:52.960,1:07:55.120But your life\Nis not just you.1:07:55.120,1:07:56.640You've got friends.\NThey come here.1:07:56.640,1:07:59.280You know people.\NThey have interests.1:07:59.800,1:08:03.600The child lives in kind of\Nbunch of concentric circles of family,1:08:03.600,1:08:06.520and then larger family,\Nand close friends of family,1:08:06.520,1:08:10.280and neighbors, streets.1:08:10.280,1:08:13.520And this world, as I say,\Nhas many different layers in it.1:08:13.520,1:08:17.800And some of your children\Nmay meet people1:08:17.800,1:08:19.480who happen to be\Nvery interested1:08:19.480,1:08:21.360in things that you're\Nnot much interested in,1:08:21.360,1:08:23.080and they may\Npick up that interest.1:08:23.080,1:08:25.040That's okay.1:08:25.040,1:08:27.920As long as –\Nas I say, as long as –1:08:27.920,1:08:29.120as far as we're able to,1:08:29.120,1:08:32.120we make it possible for children\Nto move into the world1:08:32.120,1:08:33.920in whatever ways\Nthey want to do it,1:08:33.920,1:08:35.120they're going to\Nfind enough there.1:08:35.120,1:08:37.160Nobody's going to\Ndie of starvation.1:08:37.160,1:08:39.480I don't care whether you live\Non an isolated farm,1:08:39.480,1:08:42.920or this sterile suburb that\Neverybody loves to talk about,1:08:42.920,1:08:45.800or the wicked big city\Nthat I live in,1:08:45.800,1:08:50.240the fact is that human life,\Nas people live it,1:08:50.240,1:08:53.800has got more than enough\Nfood for thought1:08:53.800,1:08:56.080for children to bite into\Nand to grow.1:08:56.080,1:08:57.600As they feel the need of more,1:08:57.600,1:09:04.120they're going to know more about\Nwhere to go to look for it.1:09:04.120,1:09:07.000All right.\NNow, let's see, two?1:09:07.000,1:09:09.600Woman: May I just\Nsay to my friends here,1:09:09.600,1:09:12.630wait until\Nthey get married.1:09:12.630,1:09:13.640John: The chldren?\NWoman: Right.1:09:13.640,1:09:15.560Then their lives\Nwill widen up.1:09:15.560,1:09:17.120Because our first just did.1:09:17.120,1:09:19.640I'm still at homeschooling\Nwith a six-year-old.1:09:19.640,1:09:22.320I just want to thank you,\NJohn, from my heart1:09:22.320,1:09:24.200for having helped us\Nvery much here.1:09:24.200,1:09:25.720And I don't\Nhave a question.1:09:25.720,1:09:26.640But I wanted to tell you1:09:26.640,1:09:29.680that today, my sister-in-law\Nhad to hang up the phone1:09:29.680,1:09:34.080in order to go across the street\Nto walk her third-grader home1:09:34.080,1:09:38.280because she has been molested\Nwithin 400 feet of her own home.1:09:38.280,1:09:41.440And this doesn't even state\Nhow I feel about the fact1:09:41.440,1:09:43.160that they're not learning going\Nto these places1:09:43.160,1:09:48.040that are supposed to be teaching –\Nor pouring it in, as you say.1:09:48.600,1:09:51.320I don't think that\Nwe have to defend ourselves1:09:51.320,1:09:53.560any more than if you're\Nwalking down the street1:09:53.560,1:09:55.400and someone starts to kill you,1:09:55.400,1:09:57.560because I believe\Ntaking my children out of1:09:57.560,1:09:59.960the public school system\Nsaved their lives,1:09:59.960,1:10:05.200not just morally, religiously,\Nmentally – every way possible.1:10:05.200,1:10:07.880And I appreciated\Nthe story in GWS1:10:07.880,1:10:11.480about the little girl who was\Ndiagnosed as terminally ill1:10:11.480,1:10:15.280because this was worth\Nall the pennies I paid,1:10:15.880,1:10:18.160the pink wage we\Npay you for GWS.1:10:18.160,1:10:25.320Thank you, John,\Nvery much.1:10:25.320,1:10:25.480John: Well, you're welcome.\N[Applause]1:10:25.480,1:10:27.920We had an interesting story\Nin the Globe the other day.1:10:29.440,1:10:30.520I cut out the clipping.1:10:30.520,1:10:33.480We always have about three times\Nas much stuff to print in GWS1:10:33.480,1:10:37.400as we ever have room to print,\Nwhich is frustrating.1:10:37.400,1:10:38.555This was about\Na young man –1:10:38.555,1:10:44.720he's now 18 –\Nand he was autistic,1:10:46.280,1:10:48.200which is,\Nto this day,1:10:48.200,1:10:52.560by the supposed official experts,\Ncalled "incurable".1:10:52.560,1:10:54.800"Autistic" and "retarded,"\Nthey're not the same thing.1:10:54.800,1:10:58.480I mean, he just had a whole bunch\Nof these labels stuck on him.1:10:58.480,1:11:01.560It's hopeless –\N"vegetable," "institutionalized."1:11:01.560,1:11:03.320If you can get him\Nin and out of the bathroom,1:11:03.320,1:11:05.800that's probably\Nas much as you can do.1:11:08.000,1:11:11.560And somebody got\Ninterested in this boy1:11:11.560,1:11:13.040when he was\Nseven or eight,1:11:13.040,1:11:18.240noticed that he seemed pretty\Nenergetic and lively, and liked moving,1:11:18.240,1:11:24.080and they got him started running –\Nand running distances.1:11:25.800,1:11:28.187Took him on long runs\Nor this, that, the other1:11:28.187,1:11:29.920– and they got him\Ninto this running world.1:11:29.920,1:11:32.280The boy's now 18,\NI think.1:11:32.280,1:11:33.760I don't remember whether\Nthis was because he was1:11:33.760,1:11:36.080getting ready to run in\Nthe Boston Marathon or not.1:11:36.080,1:11:38.560But at any rate, he's become\Nan extremely good runner.1:11:39.760,1:11:44.080Incidentally, he has not\Ncaught up with his age,1:11:44.080,1:11:47.960but he talks intelligently\Nand intelligibly,1:11:47.960,1:11:48.860reads –\NI don't know –1:11:48.860,1:11:50.120something on\Na 6th, 7th grade level.1:11:50.120,1:11:51.280But all this is going up.1:11:52.480,1:11:55.960He's become\Na fully-functioning human being –1:11:55.960,1:11:57.800because he was allowed and helped1:11:57.800,1:12:01.800to do the things\Nthat he liked best.1:12:02.600,1:12:05.240People grow through their strengths,\Nnot their weaknesses.1:12:05.240,1:12:06.960One of the many simple truths,1:12:06.960,1:12:12.000which the giant educational,\Npsychological, medical, etc. institutions1:12:12.000,1:12:14.080don't seem to be able\Nto learn is just that:1:12:14.080,1:12:17.560that people learn by and\Ngrow through their strengths,1:12:17.560,1:12:20.840not by having people pound\Naway at their weaknesses.1:12:20.840,1:12:22.680Somebody had\Nthe wit and the imagination1:12:22.680,1:12:25.360to see that this boy\Nhad a talent,1:12:25.360,1:12:30.280a gift, a love,\Nsomething he wanted to do.1:12:30.280,1:12:32.680And then all this other stuff\Nkind of went along with it.1:12:32.680,1:12:35.140Well, we know that,1:12:35.140,1:12:37.836and they don't know it\Nout there. [Chuckles]1:12:37.836,1:12:42.819And it's going to be\Na long time before they do –1:12:42.819,1:12:44.400which is interesting.\NOkay, now let's see.1:12:44.400,1:12:45.880Yes.1:12:45.880,1:12:50.760Woman: I have a lot of resentment\Nagainst my public school education1:12:50.760,1:12:54.000and further education here\Nat the University of Michigan,1:12:54.000,1:12:55.680although I learned,\Nas you said,1:12:55.680,1:12:58.680to play the games very well\Nand got good grades,1:12:58.680,1:13:01.960but felt that I didn't\Ndevelop a lot of interest,1:13:01.960,1:13:04.240because I was too busy\Nplaying the games.1:13:04.240,1:13:06.920But I wondered how\Nyou would answer the question,1:13:08.160,1:13:09.560if I hear you correctly,1:13:09.560,1:13:14.240that you allow a child to choose\Nwhat he wants to learn.1:13:14.240,1:13:17.000I can't imagine how\Na person would ever choose1:13:17.000,1:13:20.200to learn things\Nlike trigonometry,1:13:20.200,1:13:23.600or things that they say maybe\Nlater that you're going to need.1:13:23.600,1:13:25.800John: Well, you will\Nneed trigonometry1:13:25.800,1:13:29.560if you're a surveyor –\Nin no other place and way.1:13:29.560,1:13:30.380I'm glad you picked that.1:13:30.380,1:13:31.840Woman: Well,\NI didn't take trigonometry,1:13:31.840,1:13:33.924but the algebra\NI used, for example.1:13:33.924,1:13:33.953John: Now, now\N[inaudible] –1:13:33.953,1:13:36.760Woman: I didn't enjoy learning it,\Nbut I've used it a lot.1:13:36.760,1:13:39.040John: Okay, well,\Nif you had not learned it,1:13:39.040,1:13:41.080and if you got to\Na place in life1:13:41.080,1:13:43.160where you needed it to do\Nsomething you wanted to do,1:13:43.160,1:13:45.040then you would\Nlearn it very quickly.1:13:45.040,1:13:47.080It's no mystery.\NIt's not hidden.1:13:47.080,1:13:48.753The time to learn stuff is –1:13:48.753,1:13:50.907Woman: So you learn things\Nwhen you need them,1:13:50.907,1:13:53.000not when the school system says,\N"This is geometry year."1:13:53.000,1:13:56.560John: Right, right.\NYou learn things when you –1:13:56.560,1:13:58.320As a species,\Nas a living creature,1:13:58.320,1:14:01.080we human beings\Nare incredibly good1:14:01.080,1:14:02.840at learning stuff\Nwhen we need to –1:14:02.840,1:14:06.960if we have not been convinced that\Nwe're so stupid that we can't do it –1:14:06.960,1:14:10.040which, unfortunately,\Nin a great many places, does happen.1:14:10.040,1:14:12.200Man: I don't know who\Nyou're on right now,1:14:12.200,1:14:15.080but I just want to point out that\NI'm enjoying learning algebra.1:14:15.080,1:14:19.976I'm alternatively educated.\N[Laughter]1:14:19.976,1:14:19.994Woman: [Inaudible]1:14:19.994,1:14:21.460John: Good.\NAnd thank you.1:14:21.460,1:14:23.160Woman: What kind of school\Nare you in now?1:14:23.160,1:14:24.760Man: Well, actually,\Nit's a public school,1:14:24.760,1:14:28.440but it's an attempt at being\Nan alternative school.1:14:28.440,1:14:31.360And it's not as close as\Nthe school I went to before it,1:14:32.960,1:14:37.600but it's closer than\Nthe standard public schools,1:14:37.600,1:14:40.400and it has the atmosphere\Nof an alternative school.1:14:40.400,1:14:47.120But many of\Nour classes are chosen,1:14:47.120,1:14:50.680I mean, rather than –1:14:50.680,1:14:53.640Beyond the state requirements that\Nthe public schools have to follow,1:14:53.640,1:14:54.640most of our classes\Nare chosen.1:14:54.640,1:14:59.040Woman: Do you have\Nfriends in regular public school?1:14:59.040,1:15:01.440What I wonder is if you feel,\Nin comparison,1:15:01.440,1:15:03.600that you're getting\Na far better education.1:15:03.600,1:15:05.100Man: Well, the –\NWoman: Obviously, you do.1:15:05.100,1:15:08.280Man: I was in the public schools\Nuntil 7th grade.1:15:08.280,1:15:10.360And 7th grade,\NI jumped around,1:15:10.360,1:15:13.000and it was\Nbecause of just1:15:13.000,1:15:15.320all sorts of problems\NI was having in public schools.1:15:18.560,1:15:21.280Yeah, I think my education\Nsince I've gone into alternative schools1:15:21.280,1:15:24.960has been infinitely better.1:15:24.960,1:15:27.280John: Good.\NWell, I'm glad to hear that.1:15:27.280,1:15:30.920But I do want to make clear,\Nas far as I'm concerned,1:15:30.920,1:15:34.240I'm not trying to make –\Nnever have tried to make1:15:34.240,1:15:38.440a distinction between public and\Nconventional private schools.1:15:39.040,1:15:41.920If you remember\N"How Children Fail,"1:15:41.920,1:15:46.960you'll remember that\Nsomewhere along in the book I wrote,1:15:46.960,1:15:51.160"School is a place where\Nchildren learn to be stupid."1:15:51.160,1:15:51.240[Laughter]1:15:51.240,1:15:53.720Now, let me tell you about\Nthe school about which I was writing.1:15:53.720,1:15:54.600I was not writing about1:15:54.600,1:15:59.480some poor old PS 111in the middle of the downtown,1:15:59.480,1:16:03.680I was talking about\Nan extremely exclusive,1:16:03.680,1:16:07.400high-powered, selective,\Nprivate elementary school,1:16:07.400,1:16:09.600one of the two or three\Noutstanding such schools1:16:09.600,1:16:12.480in the whole\NBoston-Cambridge area –1:16:12.480,1:16:16.640the top of the top\Nof the top of the top!1:16:16.640,1:16:19.000They had an admissions policy1:16:19.000,1:16:21.440under which a kid could\Nnot get into the school1:16:21.440,1:16:24.520if she or he did not\Nhave an IQ of 120.1:16:24.520,1:16:27.120That was the cut-off!1:16:27.120,1:16:31.200It was at that school\Nthat I wrote,1:16:31.200,1:16:33.760"School is a place where\Nchildren learn to be stupid."1:16:33.760,1:16:36.680So I'm not drawing a line –\N[chuckles] never have drawn it.1:16:36.680,1:16:38.360I'm not drawing it here saying,1:16:38.360,1:16:41.040"Ooh, look at all these terrible,\Nrotten public schools on one side.1:16:41.040,1:16:42.640Ooh, look at these –"1:16:42.640,1:16:45.520What I was saying then\Nis that what I came to realize1:16:45.520,1:16:47.240in that school\Nwith these kids1:16:47.240,1:16:51.800is that you cannot coerce learning\Nor attempt to coerce it1:16:51.800,1:16:54.160without making people stupid –1:16:54.160,1:16:57.960without making them afraid,\Nshifty, evasive, clever tricksters.1:16:57.960,1:17:01.960Yeah, the cleverest tricksters,\Nthey'll sail on to Harvard, MIT, Yale –1:17:01.960,1:17:03.800I did that game.1:17:03.800,1:17:07.040Dope out the teacher,\Nguess the exam.1:17:07.040,1:17:09.680Everybody knows\Nhow it goes.1:17:09.680,1:17:12.440And everybody who does it\Nknows that 90% of that stuff1:17:12.440,1:17:17.120you throw out just like dirty dishwater\Nas soon as the exam is passed.1:17:17.120,1:17:19.360How many people on\Nany university faculty1:17:19.360,1:17:20.960could pass an exam –1:17:20.960,1:17:24.200other than, perhaps basic\NEnglish reading and writing –1:17:24.200,1:17:28.440outside of their own specialty?1:17:28.440,1:17:33.720I mean, just very, very few –\Nand they know it.1:17:33.720,1:17:36.800I mean, this idea that there's\Nsome great body of knowledge1:17:36.800,1:17:38.960which they all share –\Nit's just nonsense!1:17:38.960,1:17:40.440Never was true –\Nnot true now.1:17:40.440,1:17:42.120It's a fraud.1:17:42.960,1:17:44.640I mean, I think\Na lot of people say it sincerely.1:17:44.640,1:17:46.640I don't think they're lying\Nwhen they say it.1:17:46.640,1:17:49.440But I mean, it's a fraud\Nbecause it's just not so!1:17:49.440,1:17:53.880Nobody remembers that stuff.1:17:53.880,1:17:55.440Harvard University –1:17:55.440,1:18:00.440if you're taking some big course,\Nthey announce an exam.1:18:00.440,1:18:04.600Some professor's going to\Nhave an exam in his or her course.1:18:04.600,1:18:05.640Professor announces it:1:18:05.640,1:18:07.760"We will have such an exam\Non such and such a day,1:18:07.760,1:18:10.280and it will cover such and\Nsuch and such a topic."1:18:10.280,1:18:14.600And then you spend a certain amount\Nof time discussing this in review.1:18:14.600,1:18:17.160Nobody springs surprise exams\Non their students1:18:17.160,1:18:20.800because they know\Nperfectly well what would happen.1:18:20.800,1:18:24.791No, it's a very –1:18:24.791,1:18:25.000All right.\N[Laughter]1:18:25.000,1:18:28.560I'll get out of that.\NI'll go on all night.1:18:28.560,1:18:29.200[Laughter]1:18:29.200,1:18:31.360Let's see, now,\Nwhere are we in our numbers?1:18:31.360,1:18:32.960John: Yes.1:18:32.960,1:18:36.984Dorothy: I'm 4.\NJohn: Good.1:18:36.984,1:18:37.340Dorothy: I help coordinate1:18:37.340,1:18:40.480a homeschooling\Nsupport group in Chicago,1:18:40.480,1:18:44.480and I'm noticing\Nmore and more1:18:45.880,1:18:50.440the split that you have alluded to\Nin homeschooling as well1:18:50.440,1:18:54.480between those who wish to\Ncoerce learning and those who don't.1:18:54.480,1:18:59.280And those who do\Nare very much interested –1:18:59.280,1:19:00.720as it happens in Illinois –1:19:00.720,1:19:04.480in keeping those of us\Nwho don't want to coerce1:19:04.480,1:19:09.960in a semblance of unity with them\Nvis-à-vis the state.1:19:09.960,1:19:12.040And it's becoming\Nmore and more difficult,1:19:12.040,1:19:13.920I think, for that to happen.1:19:13.920,1:19:17.520And I wonder if you would\Ncomment on that, and also on –1:19:17.520,1:19:20.720There is a definite\None-way flow of energy happening1:19:20.720,1:19:24.720because those of us\Nwho do not wish to coerce1:19:26.280,1:19:31.280give support and assistance\Nvery often to those who do,1:19:32.920,1:19:35.760because they believe they\Nhave the right to choose.1:19:35.760,1:19:38.080And those who\Nwish to coerce1:19:38.080,1:19:41.280really don't think that the rest of us\Ndo have the right because,1:19:41.280,1:19:43.480"We're not doing it\Nthe right way, you see."1:19:43.480,1:19:46.880So, would you\Ncomment on that?1:19:46.880,1:19:51.400This is not a problem I want solved\Nbecause I don't see it being [inaudible]1:19:51.400,1:19:52.947John: That's good,\Nbecause it's –1:19:52.947,1:19:53.880Dorothy: – we're\Nnot going to do that.1:19:53.880,1:19:56.720But I would like a comment\Nfrom you, if you will, on that,1:19:56.720,1:20:01.320especially vis-à-vis legislation,\Nand that sort of thing,1:20:01.320,1:20:07.000when our interests tend to be\Nmoving further and further apart.1:20:07.000,1:20:12.354And what would you think we should do\Nin terms of strategies about this?1:20:12.354,1:20:13.840John: Thank you, Dorothy.1:20:15.400,1:20:18.000I first think of something\Na friend of mine used to say:1:20:18.520,1:20:23.985"This isn't a problem,\Nit's a predicament."1:20:23.985,1:20:24.180Dorothy: Right.\N[Laughter]1:20:24.180,1:20:28.600John: The word "problem"\Nkind of cooks up in our mind1:20:28.600,1:20:30.960a picture of something\Nwhich we could make go away1:20:30.960,1:20:32.880if we could just figure out\Nthe right thing to do.1:20:33.440,1:20:35.988Things like death and taxes\Nare predicaments,1:20:35.988,1:20:38.280and they're just\Npart of reality.1:20:38.280,1:20:41.680Yeah, this is a part of reality,\Nand we are living with it,1:20:41.680,1:20:46.840and we're going to be living with it\Nas far in the future as I can see.1:20:47.400,1:20:50.640It doesn't trouble me that –1:20:50.640,1:20:54.400I'm going to\Nrespond in several sections.1:20:54.400,1:20:55.320First place,\NI don't think1:20:55.320,1:20:59.000it's a cause for worry\Nor concern or distress1:20:59.000,1:21:01.400that we may be\Nhelping people1:21:01.400,1:21:05.740to get rights which they\Nwould not help us to get.1:21:05.740,1:21:07.320Dorothy: I'm not worried\Nabout that.1:21:07.320,1:21:11.240John: Now, there's\Nno reason in the world1:21:11.240,1:21:13.640not to work\Ntogether with people1:21:13.640,1:21:16.720with whom we disagree\Nabout many things1:21:16.720,1:21:19.120on those things\Nabout which we agree.1:21:19.120,1:21:23.160Because when we improve\Nthe legislative situation,1:21:23.160,1:21:25.160then we've made things\Neasier for all of us.1:21:33.760,1:21:37.600Another thing\NI would have to say is –1:21:37.600,1:21:39.360Well, first of all,1:21:39.360,1:21:43.820a lot of the people who begin\Nas coercive homeschoolers change.1:21:43.820,1:21:46.434Dorothy: I've seen\Na lot of that [inaudible].1:21:46.434,1:21:51.640John: Their children teach them [laughter]\Nabout how learning really works.1:21:51.640,1:21:54.240And if – and this is\Nvery, very often true –1:21:54.240,1:21:58.880if they care enough about their children\Nto pay attention to their feelings1:21:58.880,1:22:04.640and pick up these messages,\Nthey become educated,1:22:04.640,1:22:08.840and they become\Nless and less coercive –1:22:08.840,1:22:11.320minimally coercive.1:22:11.320,1:22:13.840My experience is that the people\Nwho do not make that change1:22:13.840,1:22:17.280don't stay in\Nhomeschooling very long.1:22:17.280,1:22:19.240That is, people who –1:22:19.240,1:22:21.360whether for reasons\Nreligious or other,1:22:21.360,1:22:24.680believe in high-pressure coercion,1:22:24.680,1:22:27.880soon find ways to get together with\Nother people who feel the same way1:22:27.880,1:22:30.000and they start\Nsome kind of coercive school.1:22:30.000,1:22:31.720I don't think\Nyou're very likely1:22:31.720,1:22:35.280to find people doing\Ncoercive homeschooling1:22:35.280,1:22:37.720for four or five\Nyears in a row.1:22:37.720,1:22:39.480I mean, their children\Nwould hit the road,1:22:39.480,1:22:45.680if nothing else happened.\N[Laughter]1:22:45.680,1:22:49.880I'm untroubled\Nby having people start1:22:49.880,1:22:53.920in a position which is\Nvery far from my own,1:22:53.920,1:22:56.520partly because I believe people\Nshould have the right to do this1:22:56.520,1:22:58.640however they want to do it,\Nnot just if they agree with me,1:22:58.640,1:23:01.400and partly because I have\Na lot of confidence, as I say,1:23:01.400,1:23:02.880that they will learn\Nfrom their children,1:23:02.880,1:23:05.800that they will move\Naway from coercion.1:23:05.800,1:23:09.040As I have said\Nat teachers' colleges,1:23:09.040,1:23:11.760one reason homeschooling\Nworks well in practice1:23:11.760,1:23:16.200is that the home is an absolutely\Nsplendid teacher-training institution.1:23:16.200,1:23:17.720[Laughter]1:23:17.720,1:23:19.000The numbers\Nare small enough1:23:19.000,1:23:24.600so you can really hear the messages\Nthat your children are sending.1:23:24.600,1:23:26.760And you're in a position where,\Nif you choose to,1:23:26.760,1:23:28.420you can learn from them.1:23:28.420,1:23:32.240Now, when I first discovered,\Nas a fifth-grade classroom teacher,1:23:32.240,1:23:34.440that a lot of children\Nwere so scared1:23:34.440,1:23:36.600of the weekly\Narithmetic test1:23:36.600,1:23:39.120that they couldn't\Nthink about arithmetic,1:23:39.120,1:23:40.480I stopped giving the tests.1:23:40.480,1:23:41.960And it wasn't more than\Nabout two weeks1:23:41.960,1:23:43.280before the school administration1:23:43.280,1:23:45.120told me that I had to\Nstart giving them again,1:23:45.120,1:23:48.560and they fired me\Nat the end of the year.1:23:48.560,1:23:50.600So I was not\Nin a position to do1:23:50.600,1:23:53.600what my conscience and\Nintelligence and instincts1:23:53.600,1:23:55.120told me needed\Nto be done.1:23:55.120,1:23:56.960Parents aren't\Nin that position.1:23:56.960,1:23:58.400"You can start\Nwith a little desk,1:23:58.400,1:24:01.300an American flag,\Na schedule on the blackboard –1:24:01.300,1:24:01.800[Laughter]1:24:01.800,1:24:06.080– but the day you find out\Nit isn't working, you can say,1:24:06.080,1:24:07.640"We're going to do\Nsomething different."1:24:07.640,1:24:10.666You have that\Nfreedom to move –1:24:10.666,1:24:12.775[Recording ends prematurely]