0:00:00.735,0:00:03.152
(calm music)

0:00:16.530,0:00:19.579
- As a child, my parents had reproductions

0:00:19.579,0:00:21.480
in their house,

0:00:21.480,0:00:23.673
and some of them were really corny.

0:00:24.746,0:00:26.747
(hole puncher snipping)

0:00:26.747,0:00:27.930
(calm music)

0:00:27.930,0:00:30.540
But in the guest room, they hung

0:00:30.540,0:00:33.093
a textured painting by Van Gogh.

0:00:38.622,0:00:41.913
So I scrambled up on the[br]chair and I touched it.

0:00:43.920,0:00:46.050
That's what stuck to me,

0:00:46.050,0:00:49.023
that painting would have[br]a kind of texture to it.

0:00:50.138,0:00:51.450
(calm music)

0:00:51.450,0:00:53.553
It's almost a kind of exhilaration.

0:00:55.470,0:00:57.450
The process of being an artist

0:00:57.450,0:00:59.073
I find very fulfilling.

0:01:00.210,0:01:02.695
I feel a sense of freedom.

0:01:02.695,0:01:05.112
(calm music)

0:01:15.360,0:01:16.953
The templates are on the wall.

0:01:16.953,0:01:19.230
That's great, yeah.

0:01:19.230,0:01:20.070
- We're decorating the rooms.

0:01:20.070,0:01:22.478
- Oh, I like that, I like that.

0:01:22.478,0:01:23.311
(Howardena laughing)

0:01:23.311,0:01:26.223
- Do you wanna put some[br]shapes on this one?

0:01:26.223,0:01:28.650
- Mm-hm, let's see, that way?

0:01:28.650,0:01:30.363
I like that way.[br]- Yeah.

0:01:31.346,0:01:32.346
Or that way?

0:01:34.213,0:01:35.820
- I kind of like this.

0:01:35.820,0:01:36.750
- [Erin] You kind of like that?

0:01:36.750,0:01:39.250
- Yeah, 'cause I'm very,[br]I love this wiggly thing,

0:01:40.380,0:01:43.950
and I'm tempted to put a shape like this,

0:01:43.950,0:01:46.560
but without that change there

0:01:46.560,0:01:48.577
on this edge, in here.

0:01:48.577,0:01:49.760
- [Erin] Oh, okay.

0:01:49.760,0:01:52.380
- My intention is that it[br]would pull over into this.

0:01:52.380,0:01:53.820
- Gotcha, yeah, okay.

0:01:53.820,0:01:54.993
- And then with this,

0:01:56.275,0:01:57.981
I think I would like to put that up.

0:01:57.981,0:01:58.814
- [Erin] Okay.

0:01:58.814,0:02:02.231
- 'Cause I really want that[br]dark to come through something.

0:02:02.231,0:02:04.200
- [Erin] Okay.

0:02:04.200,0:02:07.290
- I see abstraction as[br]an intuitive expression

0:02:07.290,0:02:12.180
of someone's experience,[br]both good and both bad.

0:02:12.180,0:02:14.013
At least you get the general idea.

0:02:15.900,0:02:17.173
Let's see.

0:02:17.173,0:02:19.380
(calm music)

0:02:19.380,0:02:20.670
When you work with abstraction,

0:02:20.670,0:02:24.090
you're working with your own[br]intuitive feelings about space,

0:02:24.090,0:02:25.953
color, line, shape.

0:02:27.780,0:02:30.420
Its purpose is almost a way of opening up

0:02:30.420,0:02:32.193
our thought process,

0:02:34.860,0:02:37.830
because you're reading[br]someone else's language

0:02:37.830,0:02:40.480
and you're interpreting it[br]through your own language.

0:02:44.914,0:02:46.890
Did you wanna do a painting[br]that was a dimensional?

0:02:46.890,0:02:50.193
Did you wanna do a painting[br]that was about numbers?

0:02:51.690,0:02:53.343
I felt challenged by that.

0:02:56.580,0:02:59.613
The circular format is a[br]kind of internal gravity.

0:03:02.010,0:03:04.470
It's so compact and you can make something

0:03:04.470,0:03:06.273
that has a lot of tension in it.

0:03:08.400,0:03:10.353
It's an iconic form in nature.

0:03:11.370,0:03:13.770
And I could look at[br]the planets, the stars,

0:03:13.770,0:03:16.053
the moon, molecules,

0:03:17.370,0:03:18.753
it's all around us.

0:03:19.768,0:03:20.940
(calm music)

0:03:20.940,0:03:23.095
I'm fascinated by the circle.

0:03:23.095,0:03:25.170
(calm music)

0:03:25.170,0:03:27.840
And so back in the early seventies,

0:03:27.840,0:03:30.330
I started spraying[br]dots, through templates,

0:03:30.330,0:03:33.573
which I made by punching out file folders,

0:03:35.580,0:03:39.226
and I would spray through the template.

0:03:39.226,0:03:41.258
(calm music)

0:03:41.258,0:03:44.010
(paint spraying)

0:03:44.010,0:03:46.923
I make the basic drawings[br]for the spray paintings.

0:03:49.290,0:03:53.179
The studio manager, Erin,[br]handles the spray equipment.

0:03:53.179,0:03:55.596
(calm music)

0:03:58.390,0:04:00.570
My father was a science math person,

0:04:00.570,0:04:03.840
and I don't remember[br]getting a doll at Christmas,

0:04:03.840,0:04:06.300
but I was given a microscope.

0:04:06.300,0:04:07.650
I was very curious,

0:04:07.650,0:04:11.220
and I used a dropper to put[br]some drinking water on a slide

0:04:11.220,0:04:12.720
and looked under the microscope

0:04:12.720,0:04:15.120
and there were all these[br]microbes swimming around

0:04:15.120,0:04:16.830
in the drinking water.

0:04:16.830,0:04:20.104
And it was all kind of at[br]random, they were just all over.

0:04:20.104,0:04:21.360
(calm music)

0:04:21.360,0:04:23.820
It was like drama 'cause[br]things would collide

0:04:23.820,0:04:26.670
or move around, or they[br]wouldn't run into each other.

0:04:26.670,0:04:29.970
And there was no particular reason

0:04:29.970,0:04:32.460
other than they were just in water.

0:04:32.460,0:04:35.820
So that microscope made a difference

0:04:35.820,0:04:38.643
because I saw things in motion at random.

0:04:39.558,0:04:41.975
(calm music)

0:04:50.070,0:04:51.203
Oh my Lord.

0:04:52.600,0:04:54.453
Oh my God, Virgil.

0:04:55.860,0:04:57.960
Here I am with Nancy.

0:04:57.960,0:04:59.523
I don't know how old I was.

0:05:00.570,0:05:02.700
Oh, this is amazing,[br]it's my parents' house

0:05:02.700,0:05:04.713
on Wayne Avenue in Philadelphia.

0:05:05.970,0:05:07.293
That's incredible.

0:05:10.080,0:05:12.060
This is my father.

0:05:12.060,0:05:13.650
57.

0:05:13.650,0:05:14.673
He loved reading.

0:05:16.530,0:05:18.843
April 14th, my birthday.

0:05:20.780,0:05:23.190
(pictures rustling)

0:05:23.190,0:05:25.233
Oh God, it's really interesting, that's,

0:05:27.076,0:05:28.226
my grandmother's house.

0:05:30.000,0:05:33.483
Oh, this is in Hamilton,[br]Ohio, which is southern Ohio.

0:05:34.620,0:05:38.163
And my grandmother had a[br]little bit of land and a house,

0:05:39.270,0:05:40.953
and she grew her own food.

0:05:42.720,0:05:45.470
I didn't know if there were[br]grocery stores in Hamilton.

0:05:46.422,0:05:48.839
(calm music)

0:05:49.740,0:05:53.313
I was triggered in terms[br]of my memory of circles.

0:05:57.120,0:06:02.073
My parents and I went to Ohio[br]to visit my mother's mother.

0:06:05.220,0:06:07.290
We drove to Northern Kentucky

0:06:07.290,0:06:09.540
and there was a root beer stand,

0:06:09.540,0:06:11.223
and my father liked root beer,

0:06:12.720,0:06:16.203
and we were given chilled mugs[br]the same as everyone else,

0:06:18.360,0:06:20.760
except there was a big[br]red circle on the bottom.

0:06:24.000,0:06:26.130
And that basically meant that

0:06:26.130,0:06:30.243
these were the utensils that[br]you used for non-whites.

0:06:31.225,0:06:33.642
(calm music)

0:06:35.970,0:06:37.593
And that kind of shocked me.

0:06:41.370,0:06:44.193
For years, I keep noticing circles.

0:06:47.370,0:06:49.270
I mean, just the shock of seeing that.

0:06:50.244,0:06:52.661
(calm music)

0:07:11.207,0:07:13.740
I like drawing numbers, but I have no idea

0:07:13.740,0:07:15.483
what meaning they have.

0:07:16.890,0:07:19.653
So I call them nonsense numbers.

0:07:21.540,0:07:24.660
It came from seeing my[br]father write numbers

0:07:24.660,0:07:25.863
as a mathematician.

0:07:27.810,0:07:31.350
I think they're beautiful,[br]beautiful things to see.

0:07:31.350,0:07:33.810
It's an essential part of our life.

0:07:33.810,0:07:36.030
It's almost like our heart.

0:07:36.030,0:07:38.313
Without our heart, we have no life,

0:07:40.830,0:07:42.180
where everything's numbers.

0:07:43.304,0:07:45.721
(calm music)

0:08:13.410,0:08:15.420
- You feel good with your dot colors?

0:08:15.420,0:08:17.883
- Oh yeah, I love it,[br]I love this pea soup.

0:08:19.284,0:08:23.284
(people talking simultaneously)

0:08:25.830,0:08:29.103
- Howardena, you used to[br]handpunch all of your dots.

0:08:29.940,0:08:31.973
- With one single hole punch.

0:08:31.973,0:08:35.056
(Howardena laughing)

0:08:35.940,0:08:37.920
This is my third year at Dieu Donné.

0:08:37.920,0:08:38.997
- [Woman] This is your third year?

0:08:38.997,0:08:39.960
- Third yeah, yeah.

0:08:39.960,0:08:41.183
- [Woman] Over a hundred pieces?

0:08:41.183,0:08:43.143
- Hundred pieces, yeah, yeah.

0:08:44.850,0:08:47.970
Well, I looked at a sample of colors

0:08:47.970,0:08:51.677
and I like this, I call[br]it like pea soup green.

0:08:51.677,0:08:52.510
(everyone laughing)

0:08:52.510,0:08:54.150
And then with the purple blue,

0:08:54.150,0:08:57.120
and then it goes from like dark to light.

0:08:57.120,0:08:58.323
I like the gradation.

0:09:01.080,0:09:02.730
- This might be silly question,

0:09:02.730,0:09:04.800
but how Howardena, did you ever think

0:09:04.800,0:09:06.513
that you would be this big?

0:09:07.350,0:09:08.509
- Are you kidding?

0:09:08.509,0:09:10.012
I don't even believe it.

0:09:10.012,0:09:11.163
I don't believe it now.

0:09:13.170,0:09:16.833
You know, when Amy sent that[br]text to me about Hong Kong.

0:09:17.820,0:09:19.945
I was like, oh my God.

0:09:19.945,0:09:22.749
(Howardena laughing)

0:09:22.749,0:09:23.610
(calm music)

0:09:23.610,0:09:26.313
It's almost like it's too late.

0:09:29.490,0:09:31.800
It sounds strange, but,

0:09:31.800,0:09:33.813
when I would've appreciated it,

0:09:34.650,0:09:36.213
I guess when I was younger,

0:09:42.908,0:09:44.241
I felt isolated.

0:09:46.380,0:09:48.230
At that point I didn't have a dealer.

0:09:51.240,0:09:54.330
Some of the rejections would[br]be from white collectors.

0:09:54.330,0:09:57.510
Why should I buy an abstract[br]work from a Black person

0:09:57.510,0:09:59.523
when I can get it from a white person?

0:10:01.200,0:10:03.450
This is what Black[br]artists were running into.

0:10:05.490,0:10:09.303
I worked at the Museum of[br]Modern Art for about 12 years.

0:10:10.560,0:10:12.843
It was mainly white and male.

0:10:14.970,0:10:16.950
Hostile questions too were coming from

0:10:16.950,0:10:19.830
some of the women art historians.

0:10:19.830,0:10:23.643
"What did I do to qualify[br]for my job at the Modern?"

0:10:26.400,0:10:28.710
- You know, you really must be paranoid.

0:10:28.710,0:10:30.240
Those things never happened to me.

0:10:30.240,0:10:33.140
I don't know anyone who's had[br]those things happen to them.

0:10:34.650,0:10:36.720
But then of course, they're[br]free, white, and 21,

0:10:36.720,0:10:39.660
so they wouldn't have[br]that kind of experience.

0:10:39.660,0:10:44.460
- Free, White, and 21 was a[br]video piece that I did in 1980,

0:10:44.460,0:10:47.130
which was around the[br]time when I had resigned

0:10:47.130,0:10:48.633
from my job at the Modern.

0:10:49.470,0:10:51.630
- However, she felt that a white student

0:10:51.630,0:10:53.880
with lower grades would go further,

0:10:53.880,0:10:57.060
therefore she would not put[br]me in the accelerated course.

0:10:57.060,0:10:59.490
- Well, I was kind of annoyed[br]at the white women's movement,

0:10:59.490,0:11:01.530
and I also wanted to deal[br]with some of the racist stuff

0:11:01.530,0:11:03.120
in the art world.

0:11:03.120,0:11:06.210
And so I decided to be myself

0:11:06.210,0:11:10.560
and then to dress myself up as[br]a white woman criticizing me.

0:11:10.560,0:11:11.970
- You know, I hear your experiences

0:11:11.970,0:11:14.880
and I think, well, it's[br]gotta be in her art.

0:11:14.880,0:11:16.320
That's the only way we'll validate you.

0:11:16.320,0:11:17.790
And it's gotta be in your art in the way

0:11:17.790,0:11:19.143
that we consider valid.

0:11:20.400,0:11:23.010
If it isn't in a, you know, used in a way,

0:11:23.010,0:11:26.940
if your symbols aren't used in[br]a way that we use them, then,

0:11:26.940,0:11:28.989
we won't acknowledge them.

0:11:28.989,0:11:31.710
In fact, you won't exist[br]until we validate you.

0:11:31.710,0:11:35.010
And, you know, if you don't[br]wanna do what we tell you to do,

0:11:35.010,0:11:36.900
then we'll find other tokens.

0:11:36.900,0:11:39.180
- And I just did this narrative

0:11:39.180,0:11:43.320
and it goes back and[br]forth, and at the end,

0:11:43.320,0:11:45.993
I pull off like I'm pulling off my skin,

0:11:46.830,0:11:49.593
but it's almost like I'm[br]pulling off another layer.

0:11:52.410,0:11:55.601
It was first shown in a show Ana Mendieta

0:11:55.601,0:11:57.600
that I put together at A.I.R.

0:11:57.600,0:11:59.820
It was way in the back and[br]I had a little metronome

0:11:59.820,0:12:01.923
so it would tick as you watch the video,

0:12:04.050,0:12:06.960
and the whites freaked out.

0:12:06.960,0:12:08.700
They went wild.

0:12:08.700,0:12:10.100
They were not happy with it.

0:12:11.700,0:12:15.360
It's been shown in Berlin,[br]Scotland, and Ireland,

0:12:15.360,0:12:17.910
and the Modern had it on view for a while,

0:12:17.910,0:12:19.816
which is kind of ironic.

0:12:19.816,0:12:20.649
(Howardena giggling)

0:12:20.649,0:12:21.870
- Well, you ungrateful little,

0:12:21.870,0:12:24.304
after all we've done for you.

0:12:24.304,0:12:26.430
(calm music)

0:12:26.430,0:12:30.243
- Even though early on, my[br]work faced a lot of rejection,

0:12:31.740,0:12:32.840
I just kept going.

0:12:34.920,0:12:36.750
I just didn't give up.

0:12:36.750,0:12:38.790
You know, I just kept pushing

0:12:38.790,0:12:41.673
and the work matured in spite[br]of a hostile environment.

0:12:43.590,0:12:46.203
I was used to the work[br]being rejected or mocked.

0:12:47.340,0:12:50.970
I mean, it's an irony it's[br]the same work I'm showing now.

0:12:50.970,0:12:52.710
Literally, some of them[br]are the same pieces

0:12:52.710,0:12:54.781
and it's the opposite reaction.

0:12:54.781,0:12:57.198
(calm music)

0:13:27.006,0:13:30.450
I seem to have more inhibiting[br]physical boundaries,

0:13:30.450,0:13:32.973
but the art side of me is still there.

0:13:34.350,0:13:38.280
And I can step out of my[br]own restricted container

0:13:38.280,0:13:40.863
and be able to express what I feel,

0:13:41.970,0:13:44.403
whether I'm limited physically or not.

0:13:47.340,0:13:50.193
It's a life source for me.

0:13:53.310,0:13:56.250
It's just, I don't get[br]tired of being an artist.

0:13:56.250,0:13:58.560
I get tired of other things,

0:13:58.560,0:14:02.013
but then I feel like I can[br]come here and make art.

0:14:04.080,0:14:07.953
And it's not born of[br]expecting recognition,

0:14:11.340,0:14:12.603
I'm just doing my work.

0:14:15.938,0:14:18.355
(calm music)