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L'évolution du ballet
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in collaboration with
l'École supérieure de ballet du Québec
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presents One career, One story
An interview with Rhodnie Désir
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"L'évolution du ballet",
an initiative led by young people,
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not only invites Canada's youth
to rally around equity, reconciliation
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and racism against Black persons
within the ballet world,
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but also gives them the means
to achieve this goal.
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The talk is presented
by two leaders of the project
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- Hello, my name is Victoria,
- And I'm Héloïse
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and welcome to One Career, One Story
A discussion with Rhodnie Désir.
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This is a learning session
for the Ballet Forward project,
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which is a project that brings together
about 30 students
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from Canada's five major
professional ballet schools.
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It is a project that allows us
to address issues of fairness,
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reconciliation and racism
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directed towards Blacks
in the ballet world,
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but more importantly,
to find ways to combat these issues.
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Our goal is to make the ballet world
as well as the artistic world
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more inclusive and accessible
to the entire Canadian population.
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So today, we have the chance
and the great honour
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to welcome Rhodnie Désir.
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Mrs. Désir is a documentary choreographer,
dancer and chief creative officer
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with RD Créations, her own company.
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She has produced around 30 creations
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and recently collaborated
with Danse Danse.
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Some of her projects earned her
two Montreal dance awards :
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the Envol Award and the Dance Grand Prix.
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Rhodnie's choreographic signature
is linked to her roots in Haiti,
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as well as other parts of the Caribbean,
Africa, Central Africa,
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and sub-Saharan Africa.
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We can refer to her style
as "Afro-contemporary".
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Rhodnie is an amazing and inspiring woman
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and most importantly,
she's truly involved in the community,
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which earned her
international recognition.
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Thank you very much, Rhodnie,
for being with us today.
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I will hand over to you,
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so you can talk to us
about your career and everything.
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Thank you, thank you very much
for this introduction.
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It's a real joy to be with you,
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because it takes me back
to the time when I was your age
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and was dreaming of making
a career in this field.
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How would I summarize my career?
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I think it's important
to mention that I grew up...,
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I have been dancing
since I was three years old
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and my initial training
was classical ballet.
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And later on, I wanted
to join the artistic world,
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but of course, as I was coming
from a Haitian family,
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the understanding
and explanation were like,
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"We want to make sure that you can
get by in life and in the arts,
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and maybe that's not the right path."
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That was the mindset back then.
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So, I went looking for another training,
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while I was still pursuing
my dance classes.
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Which means that I was pursuing
two diplomas at the same time,
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one in communication and marketing,
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and another one in dance,
which was classical dance back then.
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However, at the same time,
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I directed my practice a little more
towards Afro-contemporary dances,
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as you have explained correctly.
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I would summarize my career
as a succession of milestones
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where I would constantly
evaluate how far I've gone,
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and how I can be useful,
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how my dancing can be useful,
and how art can be useful.
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And I like to say that
what I'm doing today,
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is what is called
“documentary choreography”
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and we can delve more into the subject.
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It is a methodology
that I wanted to develop
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to achieve my own ambition.
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But maybe in five years,
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dancing will help me
to think about architecture.
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Then maybe in ten years,
it will help me to consider
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developing a new cultural hub.
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I see dance as an element of my career,
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as a tool to open new doors.
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And that's how I would summarize
the vision of my career.
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You mentioned that you are
a documentary choreographer.
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I'm not sure what it means,
can you please further explain?
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You also said that you are
a Chief Creative Officer,
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when we last spoke,
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so these are the two things
I would like to know.
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Actually, one thing I can say
is that what I'm currently doing
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is exactly what I was doing
when I was seven years old.
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When I was young,
I used to live in Laval,
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in a community nearby, for people
who live outside of Montreal,
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it's not very far
from the city of Montreal.
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And I was simply curious
about my neighbours, about humans,
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and I wanted to understand
how humans work.
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So, some might say
that it is a journalistic approach,
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others, that it is
an anthropological approach.
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But in all of this, I just wanted
to understand how humans work.
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Then I realized that dancing
and asking questions,
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when you create, when you want to create,
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may sometimes lead you
to make some assumptions.
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What is documentary choreography?
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I could summarize it by saying
that it's done in four main stages.
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Often, an idea will arise in me
when I see a social challenge.
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For instance,
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if I consider the current situation
around deportations
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happening in the United States,
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it's a disaster, it's chaos,
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and it raises a lot of questions
regarding injustice and unfairness
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throughout the world.
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In relation to that,
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I can choose to either get angry
in front of my screen or to wonder,
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How about interviewing people
with different mindsets,
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so I can better understand
what's going on,
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and then maybe I could make use of my art
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to offer a vision,
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a hypothesis in relation
to what's going on.
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So, I start by holding interviews.
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I have my question: What is bothering me?
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What's making my stomach ache?
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What makes me want to scream, to shout,
what is it that seems so unfair to me?
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After that, I ask myself:
Who could I meet?
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And then, I will go and meet
some experts in a specific field.
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On this topic, they may be sociologists,
politicians, social workers,
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migrant-hosting organizations
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or people with connections
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with the communities
who are being deported.
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They could be family members,
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or the very people who are being deported,
who are being transferred,
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they could be policemen, policewomen.
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From there on, my backpack
is full of information.
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And there are lots of tools in it.
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Then, as I reshuffle
those tools in my bag,
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I can hand some of them over
to some musicians who might say,
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"I can hear a rhythm there."
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And this rhythm might inspire me
to make some types of gestures,
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gestures that are more circular
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or that have more weight,
more physicality, more poise,
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movements that are sharper,
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because someone's telling me,
"It's going so fast, I am confused."
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So, the image arising in me
from these words,
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is one of sharpness, of physicality,
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weight, aerobatics,
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flowing down to the ground.
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So, I start from my idea,
from the question,
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I bring this to the witnesses,
to the specialists,
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the specialists are the human element.
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Their testimonies take me away
towards other creators and designers.
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I bring this to the interpreters,
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and all along this line of process,
I also compose songs.
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I compose songs in an invented language.
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I like to say that it's a language
that I don't speak,
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but that I speak secretly.
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And after that,
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I arrive at the work phase.
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This work is a hypothesis
that I offer to the citizens
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who become my audience.
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So, documentary choreography allows us
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to preserve the peoples' memories,
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it allows us to excavate social issues
based on orality.
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It eventually takes me back to one
of my great loves which is orality.
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Through the ages,
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oral tradition, which means
speaking to each other,
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telling stories to each other,
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"I tell you something, keep it secret...",
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has transcended all ages.
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I think it will beat AI
for a very long time.
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So, I rely on this basis,
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then after that, I can develop my work
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and that's what I have been doing
through most of my works.
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So, that led me
to connect with specialists :
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experts in social sciences,
anthropology, history,
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ethnomusicology, ethnology
and what have you,
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to connect with environment specialists
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in relation to climate change
as requested.
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It got me to connect with specialists
like, at the present time,
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experts in theology, thanatology,
and astrophysics.
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Now, how will the body deploy this
through documentary choreography?
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It's about listening,
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then trying to put your body
and knowledge at the service of the cause.
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That's all I can say.
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So that's it, it was a lot of talk,
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but basically, this is what
documentary choreography is about,
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I hope it was clear.
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I've watched videos of a choregraphy
that you have created about the heart.
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That's right.
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I found it really beautiful,
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but I think that,
it's documentary choreography,
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you really represented
not the heart just like that,
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but the actual human heart in motion.
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I saw some videos
and I found it really beautiful.
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What is really interesting,
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actually, what I find fascinating
with documentary choreographies,
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is that truly,
I could do this all my life.
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It's the one thing, I can tell myself,
when I'm 90 years old,
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I can still reflect on
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how we could explain to people
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the challenges experienced by young people
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who cannot find their bearings,
for example.
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Or by a five year old child
who suffers from malnutrition
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but who still has to go to school.
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How can we tell
the story of his resilience?
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What's interesting
about the story of the heart,
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about Symphonie de cœurs,
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is that I always thought
that I'd never create a work about love,
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because I don't think
that I have a lot to say,
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and the theme in itself
does not impress me that much.
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It's not that I don't care
about actual love,
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but because I couldn't find any core
that I wanted to address.
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And when I became interested
in cardiovascular diseases
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and stories of resilience
that people live through,
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and how, within the body,
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the heart and the entire
cardiovascular system,
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which is in direct connection
with the dancing process, works,
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and going into operating rooms,
seeing open hearts,
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and the whole system as it moves,
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and seeing how the surgical teams
in the operating rooms work,
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which are actual choreographies
being performed before your eyes...
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As I left these spaces,
I had plenty of materials,
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which I could use,
together with the conductor,
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to provide guidance to the orchestra.
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I would say things like,
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"Now they should play
with more affirmation,
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because when instruments fall
in the operating room,
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I need us to create real chaos
in order to set the scene."
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I was able to recount
each step of the cardiac transplant,
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what actually is emptiness like,
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and I was able to tell the musicians,
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"You've been excelling at playing
the same thing for maybe 40 years,
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but now, I need you to act
as if you didn't know how to play anymore,
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because that is
what a cardiac transplant is about.
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A new heart is implanted in your body,
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your body is on the blink,
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and no matter how top-notch
your technique may be,
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you must instantly drop it all
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and start again from scratch.
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So that was a challenge
also for the musicians.
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In other words,
documentary choreography,
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to make a long story short,
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is really a tool that allows us
to better challenge dance,
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to better challenge the power of art,
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and to better challenge
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where the human being stands
today in society.
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It's really fascinating.
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It's clear that you are very present
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and involved in all social problems.
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Is there a personal reason or story
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why you became truly interested
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in the problems we face
in our society today?
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Was there something personal
that really gave birth
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to this urge to research and create?
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Yes, actually,
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00:12:47,109 --> 00:12:52,223
I can mention that in 2014...
246
00:12:52,995 --> 00:12:55,686
I started choreographic methodology
in 2015.
247
00:12:55,875 --> 00:12:59,377
That's when I officially started
the documentary choreography methodology.
248
00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:03,228
In 2013, I created a piece called BOW'T
249
00:13:03,228 --> 00:13:05,803
which talks about migration
and deportation,
250
00:13:06,180 --> 00:13:09,302
and I wanted to establish a bridge
between these two themes.
251
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,521
And when the time came
to tour this BOW'T piece,
252
00:13:14,725 --> 00:13:16,933
here in Montreal, in Quebec,
253
00:13:17,435 --> 00:13:20,880
my agent and I came up
against systemic barriers.
254
00:13:21,777 --> 00:13:23,465
How were they expressed?
255
00:13:23,465 --> 00:13:28,240
Mainly, we were told things like,
"Rhodnie's dance is very traditional",
256
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,415
whereas I have never performed
traditional dances in my created works.
257
00:13:32,660 --> 00:13:34,020
I did take classes,
258
00:13:34,020 --> 00:13:36,160
but it has nothing to do
with what I present.
259
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,340
So I realized that there was really
a big misunderstanding issue
260
00:13:39,340 --> 00:13:40,858
and many hurdles were raised
261
00:13:40,858 --> 00:13:44,024
beyond a mere analysis
of the excellence of my work,
262
00:13:44,024 --> 00:13:45,616
of whether it is excellent or not,
263
00:13:45,616 --> 00:13:48,092
if the understanding
of what excellence can be
264
00:13:48,092 --> 00:13:52,700
for a work expressed in a language
that is not that of classical ballet
265
00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:55,095
or eurocentric contemporary dance,
266
00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:58,740
how contemporary dance is vulgarized,
267
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:00,640
I saw that there were barriers,
268
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,678
and a lot of education
was yet to be done.
269
00:14:03,019 --> 00:14:05,929
So, I wanted to leave the milieu,
270
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,460
as I couldn't picture myself
in it anymore.
271
00:14:08,705 --> 00:14:11,569
But a beautiful life saver manifested
272
00:14:12,005 --> 00:14:13,864
in the shape of an idea,
273
00:14:14,175 --> 00:14:18,322
which was to develop a project
whereby I would demonstrate
274
00:14:18,645 --> 00:14:21,220
to what extent African
and Afrodescendant cultures
275
00:14:21,220 --> 00:14:23,559
are purely contemporary.
276
00:14:23,904 --> 00:14:28,574
And even if they are ancestral,
277
00:14:28,574 --> 00:14:29,936
they are indeed contemporary
278
00:14:29,936 --> 00:14:33,850
because they directly combine
with the people who are creating
279
00:14:33,850 --> 00:14:35,434
and renewing it in the present moment.
280
00:14:35,715 --> 00:14:37,216
So I created BOW'T TRAIL.
281
00:14:37,216 --> 00:14:39,754
BOW'T TRAIL is a remembrance journey
through the Americas,
282
00:14:40,035 --> 00:14:42,345
which led me to seven territories
across the Americas
283
00:14:42,345 --> 00:14:44,310
where I re-created each time
the same piece.
284
00:14:44,675 --> 00:14:47,880
When I say "re-create",
I mean that there is the BOW'T work,
285
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,570
there are like walls on the stage,
286
00:14:49,930 --> 00:14:52,031
there is my body, there is a musician,
287
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,570
and there are three wooden boxes.
288
00:14:54,570 --> 00:14:57,990
These three wooden boxes
followed me to Martinique, to Haiti,
289
00:14:57,990 --> 00:15:01,650
to Brazil, to New Orleans,
to Mexico, to Halifax
290
00:15:01,650 --> 00:15:03,710
and to [Chojag] Montreal.
291
00:15:04,315 --> 00:15:06,837
So I took the same piece of work
and I challenged myself,
292
00:15:06,837 --> 00:15:10,642
What if I gave myself 30 days
to re-create it from A to Z
293
00:15:11,482 --> 00:15:13,512
with some local musicians?
294
00:15:14,215 --> 00:15:16,865
As a matter of fact,
I didn't know the musicians,
295
00:15:16,865 --> 00:15:18,632
I didn't know if we would get along,
296
00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:21,526
we didn't even speak the same language,
I didn't speak Portuguese.
297
00:15:21,526 --> 00:15:24,697
I would mumble some pidgin words
to try to say,
298
00:15:25,580 --> 00:15:28,510
"Can we develop this?
Here is my idea", while I was in Brazil.
299
00:15:28,510 --> 00:15:29,777
And they would reply, “Rhodnie,
300
00:15:29,777 --> 00:15:31,565
we don't know what language
you are speaking.
301
00:15:31,565 --> 00:15:34,059
The show is in two weeks' time
and we don't understand,
302
00:15:34,059 --> 00:15:36,945
but based on your gestures,
I guess we understand each other."
303
00:15:37,125 --> 00:15:39,815
So eventually, dance opened doors for me,
304
00:15:39,815 --> 00:15:41,975
helped me speak languages
that I could not speak,
305
00:15:41,975 --> 00:15:43,230
and create succesfully.
306
00:15:43,345 --> 00:15:44,530
Then after 30 days,
307
00:15:44,530 --> 00:15:48,042
I presented my work
at a remembrance place.
308
00:15:48,430 --> 00:15:51,649
And the BOW'T work that was created
in each one of those countries
309
00:15:51,649 --> 00:15:54,970
will never tour,
not in my life, not in my death.
310
00:15:54,970 --> 00:15:57,890
It's already written in my will,
it will not tour.
311
00:15:58,210 --> 00:16:01,176
The only work that can tour
is BOW’T TRAIL Rétrospek,
312
00:16:02,376 --> 00:16:04,811
a work where in fact,
the territory is my body.
313
00:16:05,135 --> 00:16:06,624
And as I was tracing back the memory
314
00:16:06,624 --> 00:16:09,281
and the history of Afrodescendant peoples
in the Americas,
315
00:16:09,535 --> 00:16:13,710
I conducted interviews with specialists
in each one of the territories,
316
00:16:14,025 --> 00:16:17,921
and I realized that it's really trippy.
317
00:16:18,530 --> 00:16:19,879
It's hard to perform BOW'T TRAIL,
318
00:16:19,879 --> 00:16:24,500
but there is something beautiful
and crispy about meeting people,
319
00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:29,162
going straight back to the studio,
and creating from these testimonies,
320
00:16:29,425 --> 00:16:31,690
rather than burying yourself
in history books,
321
00:16:31,690 --> 00:16:32,722
because, once again,
322
00:16:32,722 --> 00:16:37,128
history is poorly told in history books
about African and Afrodescendant issues.
323
00:16:37,128 --> 00:16:38,936
At least, their history
is being rewritten,
324
00:16:38,936 --> 00:16:40,605
but unfortunately, it was poorly written.
325
00:16:40,825 --> 00:16:45,210
What drives me to keep doing
documentary choreography today?
326
00:16:45,210 --> 00:16:48,876
Because I see that it is a tool
for social change,
327
00:16:48,876 --> 00:16:50,110
for a possible social change.
328
00:16:50,570 --> 00:16:53,784
What drives me to create
in the face of injustices?
329
00:16:54,970 --> 00:16:59,525
I grew up in a family
where issues around human rights
330
00:17:01,105 --> 00:17:03,094
were discussed at the dining table.
331
00:17:03,675 --> 00:17:09,485
My parents came to Quebec
during the Duvalier Sr. era,
332
00:17:09,485 --> 00:17:12,714
so for sure, the Haitian radio station,
333
00:17:13,190 --> 00:17:14,898
plus the Quebec radio station
334
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:19,998
and the US TV channel were all on
at the same time at my place.
335
00:17:20,340 --> 00:17:22,801
I would hear about challenges
occurring in all kinds of places
336
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,630
and my parents would encourage us
337
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,782
to talk with confidence
about those issues,
338
00:17:29,782 --> 00:17:32,184
and to try to solve them
while we were sitting at the table.
339
00:17:32,184 --> 00:17:34,776
We could talk about the Colombia issue
340
00:17:34,776 --> 00:17:37,672
and we would go, "Ah, we don't agree,
what's going on there?"
341
00:17:37,672 --> 00:17:39,625
And we would debate the subject
around the table.
342
00:17:39,625 --> 00:17:45,577
So, I was trained to reflect
343
00:17:45,577 --> 00:17:47,503
about how, as a human being,
344
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,970
we have a role in the decisions we make,
345
00:17:52,260 --> 00:17:57,061
but also to be aware
of social inequalities,
346
00:17:57,061 --> 00:17:59,585
whether they may be
347
00:18:00,775 --> 00:18:03,914
in terms of the blatant increase
in homelessness rates
348
00:18:03,914 --> 00:18:05,316
and profiles of people
349
00:18:05,316 --> 00:18:10,380
who usually were not identified
as being homeless people,
350
00:18:10,380 --> 00:18:13,680
but who faced this inequity
from one day to the next
351
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,482
due to the housing situation.
352
00:18:15,936 --> 00:18:17,116
So for me,
353
00:18:17,550 --> 00:18:20,293
I quickly spot situations of inequity
354
00:18:20,570 --> 00:18:23,651
not only when they are talked about,
but also when they're not.
355
00:18:24,725 --> 00:18:29,261
And I have always thought that art
is an extremely powerful weapon
356
00:18:29,685 --> 00:18:32,587
and that if I was to use this weapon,
357
00:18:33,007 --> 00:18:37,874
it should be strong enough to capsize
something that is as big as it.
358
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:40,380
That's my motto.
359
00:18:40,750 --> 00:18:44,312
It doesn't mean that I won't be led
to create works
360
00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:47,840
just for the fun of it,
361
00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,090
but I really want to... ,
362
00:18:49,090 --> 00:18:51,880
There needs to be a cause
to which I respond.
363
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,623
This is my art for me.
364
00:18:54,565 --> 00:18:57,217
We would like to move on
to another topic
365
00:18:57,217 --> 00:18:58,738
- if you don't mind,
- Of course!
366
00:18:58,738 --> 00:19:02,673
because actually, Ballet Forward
focuses on anti-Black racism,
367
00:19:02,673 --> 00:19:05,469
so our project goal is to open minds.
368
00:19:05,940 --> 00:19:08,858
And I wanted to know if ballet,
369
00:19:08,858 --> 00:19:11,724
since it was created in Europe
a long time ago
370
00:19:11,724 --> 00:19:13,478
on conservative and traditional grounds,
371
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:18,169
is an art that can discriminate
and exclude many communities?
372
00:19:18,430 --> 00:19:21,956
And if you are comfortable
talking about the topic,
373
00:19:21,956 --> 00:19:25,031
is racism something
that you have already experienced
374
00:19:25,031 --> 00:19:28,832
or maybe are still experiencing
in the ballet world,
375
00:19:28,832 --> 00:19:30,936
as well as at an earlier stage?
376
00:19:31,985 --> 00:19:34,565
I think the basis...
377
00:19:35,345 --> 00:19:36,862
There are many layers in there.
378
00:19:38,380 --> 00:19:40,235
It's important to remember that
379
00:19:40,235 --> 00:19:46,128
the body is one of the most
magnificent instruments to rally
380
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:47,880
and at the same time,
381
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,855
it's one of the most drastic and terrible
instruments to discriminate us.
382
00:19:53,255 --> 00:19:56,755
And dance being an environment,
383
00:19:56,755 --> 00:20:00,556
where the body is the main tool,
384
00:20:00,915 --> 00:20:04,268
unfortunately, whether in ballet
or in other forms,
385
00:20:04,995 --> 00:20:09,312
the gaze and perception
386
00:20:10,242 --> 00:20:12,610
become a measuring tool.
387
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:18,083
What is it that I perceive
of the capacity of a body
388
00:20:18,083 --> 00:20:19,759
before it even moves?
389
00:20:20,125 --> 00:20:24,094
Do I feel that it fits into the categories
390
00:20:24,295 --> 00:20:28,774
that my practice... defends
391
00:20:28,774 --> 00:20:31,013
or that my practice states?
392
00:20:31,812 --> 00:20:33,012
I'll give you an example.
393
00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:37,740
When I was 11 years old,
I had gone through several auditions
394
00:20:37,740 --> 00:20:40,960
because I wanted to join
a dance-study programme.
395
00:20:42,274 --> 00:20:47,755
Back then, there used to be,
in your current school,
396
00:20:48,525 --> 00:20:52,504
I was told it had a different name
in older days, it was École supérieure...
397
00:20:52,504 --> 00:20:55,410
- Danse?
- No, there was another name,
398
00:20:55,410 --> 00:20:58,800
I can't remember the exact name,
399
00:20:59,407 --> 00:21:05,057
but it seems to me that the title
included École Supérieure de...
400
00:21:05,347 --> 00:21:09,387
there was a... anyway!
401
00:21:09,925 --> 00:21:12,020
I had applied for this school
402
00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:15,887
like most of the girls who were coming out
ot Pierre-Laporte school,
403
00:21:15,887 --> 00:21:17,235
so that was mostly girls.
404
00:21:17,235 --> 00:21:19,585
And I had also applied
to join the Pierre-Laporte School.
405
00:21:19,585 --> 00:21:21,425
And when I received...
406
00:21:21,425 --> 00:21:25,058
I very much wanted to join
the first school I had applied for.
407
00:21:25,420 --> 00:21:27,286
When I received my rejection letter,
408
00:21:27,788 --> 00:21:32,938
the letter did not merely state
that I had been rejected,
409
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,450
It analyzed my body
according to stereotypes
410
00:21:36,450 --> 00:21:38,390
of what ballet should require.
411
00:21:38,615 --> 00:21:41,665
I think I did keep my letter, actually.
412
00:21:43,195 --> 00:21:45,056
It dissected my muscles,
413
00:21:45,895 --> 00:21:51,050
saying that my leg muscles were too wide
compared to the desired aesthetics,
414
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,784
that my curves did not meet
the aesthetic standards.
415
00:21:55,784 --> 00:21:59,180
It was absolutely horrible.
416
00:21:59,390 --> 00:22:02,504
I am convinced that no one would ever send
this kind of letter nowadays,
417
00:22:02,504 --> 00:22:04,590
because times have evolved
418
00:22:04,590 --> 00:22:07,186
and there has been
a lot of education since then.
419
00:22:07,577 --> 00:22:09,955
But when I opened this letter,
420
00:22:09,955 --> 00:22:11,710
I had been waiting for the postman,
421
00:22:11,710 --> 00:22:15,161
I saw the postman coming,
I opened the letter, I was very excited.
422
00:22:15,515 --> 00:22:17,959
Then, it was like a lead coat,
423
00:22:18,309 --> 00:22:23,374
it was carving out a different body
424
00:22:23,374 --> 00:22:25,260
that I supposedly should have.
425
00:22:25,260 --> 00:22:30,692
It's like telling young people
who want to become dancers,
426
00:22:32,265 --> 00:22:35,335
"Here, take this magazine,
look at this body,
427
00:22:35,335 --> 00:22:36,971
then make your body fit inside it.
428
00:22:37,693 --> 00:22:40,793
And if you can't fit, you're out."
429
00:22:41,495 --> 00:22:44,875
And being in an environment
where excellence,
430
00:22:44,875 --> 00:22:47,082
but I would rather say, the stringency,
431
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,872
the relentlessness, which can be positive,
432
00:22:51,214 --> 00:22:55,214
with which you want to achieve perfection,
to surpass yourself,
433
00:22:55,544 --> 00:22:59,040
when you are very young
and have already been trained in this,
434
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:00,672
and you receive such a letter
435
00:23:00,672 --> 00:23:03,380
telling you to go and sculpt
your body in a different way,
436
00:23:04,695 --> 00:23:07,915
that you don't fit in the cultural codes
that we want in ballet,
437
00:23:08,705 --> 00:23:11,087
and it's not even a matter of size
or what have you.
438
00:23:11,087 --> 00:23:14,925
It's really telling you
that your body will never fit.
439
00:23:15,525 --> 00:23:18,915
And I remember crumbling down
at that moment.
440
00:23:19,067 --> 00:23:23,631
Luckily, Laporte held auditions
not long after,
441
00:23:23,981 --> 00:23:25,463
and I was selected.
442
00:23:25,463 --> 00:23:29,315
But I still remember sitting
during my summer training,
443
00:23:29,315 --> 00:23:33,097
with the other people in my class,
and we were telling each other
444
00:23:33,097 --> 00:23:36,122
about the letters we had received
from that school.
445
00:23:37,525 --> 00:23:43,966
So, I do consider that these were
acts of selective discrimination
446
00:23:44,225 --> 00:23:48,780
based on my cultural physiognomy
447
00:23:48,780 --> 00:23:54,500
and not on my accomplishments
in terms of gestures or excellence,
448
00:23:55,070 --> 00:23:57,985
or my training background
in classical ballet.
449
00:23:57,985 --> 00:24:00,144
This was not a comparative measuring tool
450
00:24:00,895 --> 00:24:04,528
related to one's learning experience.
451
00:24:05,005 --> 00:24:07,922
It was based purely on aesthetics.
452
00:24:07,922 --> 00:24:09,831
And that, for me,
453
00:24:10,565 --> 00:24:12,721
was one of the biggest obstacles I saw.
454
00:24:12,953 --> 00:24:14,694
Because I didn't see myself,
455
00:24:14,694 --> 00:24:18,840
while I was very often
the only black person in my classes,
456
00:24:19,850 --> 00:24:23,594
I had not seen these discriminations
until that very moment.
457
00:24:23,594 --> 00:24:25,360
And subsequently in secondary school,
458
00:24:25,690 --> 00:24:28,430
it was obvious in the attribution
of certain roles,
459
00:24:29,625 --> 00:24:32,836
I didn't necessarily get the main roles,
460
00:24:32,836 --> 00:24:37,405
because that possibility
was ruled out fairly fast.
461
00:24:39,685 --> 00:24:42,239
What was also upsetting
unfortunately in ballet,
462
00:24:42,239 --> 00:24:45,493
is that often, your body
within the corps de ballet,
463
00:24:45,770 --> 00:24:49,168
they don't actually tell you why,
but sometimes it can be sneaky,
464
00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:52,282
they pick you up and say,
"Rhodnie, go to the edge.
465
00:24:52,803 --> 00:24:53,803
you see, go to the end."
466
00:24:53,990 --> 00:24:54,990
And you tell yourself,
467
00:24:54,990 --> 00:24:57,570
Okay,,first work, I go to the end,
second work, I go to the end,
468
00:24:57,570 --> 00:24:59,125
third work, I go to the end.
469
00:24:59,125 --> 00:25:01,271
For all works, I'm always at the end,
470
00:25:01,271 --> 00:25:04,485
on all the pictures I look at,
I was always put at the very end.
471
00:25:05,885 --> 00:25:08,707
What am I disturbing
in the corps de ballet?
472
00:25:10,045 --> 00:25:13,470
Is it because I just unbalance the photo?
473
00:25:15,050 --> 00:25:19,095
Or is it because the role I play
should always be on the right?
474
00:25:19,570 --> 00:25:21,784
And this is something
that can be easily seen,
475
00:25:21,784 --> 00:25:23,999
even in other official pictures.
476
00:25:25,250 --> 00:25:29,156
So for me, it was like the thing
477
00:25:29,156 --> 00:25:32,265
that forced me to question,
especially in ballet,
478
00:25:32,848 --> 00:25:35,185
to question about opening.
479
00:25:35,185 --> 00:25:38,245
I had conversations too,
on the opening in the body.
480
00:25:38,245 --> 00:25:40,106
"Ah, you know, it's correct actually,
481
00:25:40,106 --> 00:25:41,747
but can you just bring it to that level?"
482
00:25:41,747 --> 00:25:45,070
Then I said to myself, but no,
I can work my extension,
483
00:25:45,070 --> 00:25:46,850
it's not that I can't.
484
00:25:46,910 --> 00:25:48,149
So these are
485
00:25:50,229 --> 00:25:52,339
small seeds of information
486
00:25:52,739 --> 00:25:56,675
which, while the piano plays,
when we hear "And one, and two",
487
00:25:57,065 --> 00:25:58,845
then [we breathe to see], etc.,
488
00:25:58,855 --> 00:26:02,120
that this information also finds its place
489
00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:06,212
at the same time
as a posture adjustment.
490
00:26:06,832 --> 00:26:09,820
And what happens is - it's sneaky -
491
00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:13,505
but unfortunately, it ends up sculpting
492
00:26:13,597 --> 00:26:16,670
your own perception of your body,
493
00:26:16,670 --> 00:26:18,860
and you want to do a lot more
494
00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:21,156
than the person standing
in front of you or behind you
495
00:26:21,345 --> 00:26:23,935
at the training bar, for example.
496
00:26:25,185 --> 00:26:27,941
So it's because of those little things
497
00:26:28,338 --> 00:26:33,270
that, like other people in my class
who have gone through the same,
498
00:26:33,660 --> 00:26:35,598
I always did more, more, more.
499
00:26:35,598 --> 00:26:37,043
Even when the classes were over,
500
00:26:37,043 --> 00:26:39,064
I would stay in class
to work more and more,
501
00:26:39,350 --> 00:26:42,641
to be able to not only reach the mark
502
00:26:42,641 --> 00:26:44,650
which was given to everyone in the class,
503
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,712
but to also reach my own marks,
504
00:26:47,335 --> 00:26:49,965
and then do better
because I have to do better.
505
00:26:50,075 --> 00:26:54,475
So the result is
that you never feel in your place.
506
00:26:55,095 --> 00:26:56,775
And I will always remember,
507
00:26:56,775 --> 00:27:00,626
I had a teacher one day,
Marie-Rose Chama, to whom I still speak
508
00:27:01,545 --> 00:27:03,470
who came to see me one day
then who told me:
509
00:27:03,470 --> 00:27:06,332
"Rhodnie, I have to tell you
what you will likely experience."
510
00:27:06,332 --> 00:27:07,959
And this woman is of Lebanese origin,
511
00:27:08,524 --> 00:27:12,286
then she took me aside and she said:
"You will experience barriers,
512
00:27:12,790 --> 00:27:14,890
you will experience racism
in this environment.
513
00:27:15,302 --> 00:27:16,802
There are different markets.
514
00:27:16,802 --> 00:27:19,085
and you will soon audition
for some them,
515
00:27:19,335 --> 00:27:21,378
so I just want you
to get ready right away."
516
00:27:21,918 --> 00:27:24,928
And back then,
I could not understand this woman.
517
00:27:24,928 --> 00:27:27,006
I was thinking,
Why is she telling me those things?
518
00:27:27,006 --> 00:27:28,135
No, no, I'm fine.
519
00:27:28,135 --> 00:27:32,920
But she was preparing me
for what ballet presented me,
520
00:27:33,450 --> 00:27:36,110
and for what I wasn't told directly,
521
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,330
but she had the courage
to tell me very clearly.
522
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,070
And it was later that
I chose other artistic forms
523
00:27:44,605 --> 00:27:47,272
because it was really what I wanted,
524
00:27:48,565 --> 00:27:51,300
but it is certain that being told
things like:
525
00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:54,845
"When you go up on your toes,
you don't have a perfect line
526
00:27:54,845 --> 00:27:57,483
because we're aware
that your body is different."
527
00:27:57,975 --> 00:28:00,177
These are small adjustments,
528
00:28:00,177 --> 00:28:02,379
but because we know
that in ballet or dance,
529
00:28:02,932 --> 00:28:05,145
there are constant adjustments,
530
00:28:05,145 --> 00:28:10,466
that we always want to be
perfectly aligned with others,
531
00:28:10,466 --> 00:28:13,819
to be one with the corps
or even as a soloist,
532
00:28:16,365 --> 00:28:18,705
it means that we're being set aside.
533
00:28:19,085 --> 00:28:23,287
So that's all, it's a long story,
534
00:28:23,287 --> 00:28:25,635
but I can tell you many others like that.
535
00:28:28,270 --> 00:28:31,760
After sharing all of this with us,
536
00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:34,720
I have a question and so do my peers:
537
00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:36,720
for people who are,
538
00:28:37,250 --> 00:28:38,936
I don't know if it's the same situation,
539
00:28:38,936 --> 00:28:43,586
but who share a feeling of rage or sadness
540
00:28:43,586 --> 00:28:47,291
or feel that they are
never going to find their place,
541
00:28:47,291 --> 00:28:48,861
do you have any suggestions,
542
00:28:50,005 --> 00:28:55,701
whether it is some advice,
543
00:28:55,701 --> 00:28:58,083
some advice like, I don't know,
544
00:28:58,083 --> 00:29:02,340
it may be more personal,
545
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:07,084
or trying to understand
the world of dance.
546
00:29:07,410 --> 00:29:10,006
Could you share some advice?
547
00:29:12,665 --> 00:29:16,840
I think that anger has value
in those moments.
548
00:29:17,665 --> 00:29:19,563
And often, we want to,
549
00:29:19,563 --> 00:29:21,462
because we learn to be...
550
00:29:22,055 --> 00:29:25,703
I think that what ballet taught me,
among other things,
551
00:29:25,703 --> 00:29:28,060
as well as other things I learned
in other disciplines,
552
00:29:28,060 --> 00:29:31,272
is to show restraint, politeness,
553
00:29:32,460 --> 00:29:34,530
we don't talk too much,
we don't show too much,
554
00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:36,061
"Don't show, don't show!"
555
00:29:40,805 --> 00:29:42,760
Educating yourself is the best thing.
556
00:29:44,470 --> 00:29:45,642
You have to educate yourself.
557
00:29:46,565 --> 00:29:49,283
Educate yourself,
talk to people from different generations.
558
00:29:49,585 --> 00:29:52,295
I have been speaking with mentors,
and I still do.
559
00:29:52,295 --> 00:29:53,742
I still have mentors
560
00:29:54,190 --> 00:29:56,050
and I will never stop having mentors.
561
00:29:56,950 --> 00:29:59,958
And dare to knock on someone's door,
562
00:29:59,958 --> 00:30:02,882
even if you don't know if this person
may have had the same experience,
563
00:30:02,882 --> 00:30:06,024
but ask them, "Hey, you,
some 10 years ago,
564
00:30:06,024 --> 00:30:07,690
20 years ago or 30 years ago,
565
00:30:07,690 --> 00:30:10,195
could you possibly have gone
through this kind of experience?
566
00:30:10,195 --> 00:30:11,555
And could you tell me about it?"
567
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:14,830
Share,
568
00:30:15,285 --> 00:30:17,110
never doubt your instinct.
569
00:30:17,110 --> 00:30:19,015
You know it when there is discrimination,
570
00:30:19,015 --> 00:30:20,735
there aren't million different ways.
571
00:30:21,415 --> 00:30:25,710
And many times, you're told,
"Oh, come on, you're exaggerating."
572
00:30:27,660 --> 00:30:29,059
And what I learned,
573
00:30:29,540 --> 00:30:35,059
is that when your instinct tells you
that it is discrimination,
574
00:30:35,980 --> 00:30:38,286
you can be sure that it's true
95% of the time.
575
00:30:38,845 --> 00:30:41,745
And maybe there was a 5%
where I said to myself,
576
00:30:42,613 --> 00:30:46,716
Okay, I admit that I was maybe
a little hasty in the matter.
577
00:30:47,565 --> 00:30:52,753
But the foundation of discrimination,
particularly when it's underhand,
578
00:30:53,380 --> 00:30:56,950
meaning they don't tell you to your face,
579
00:30:56,950 --> 00:30:58,813
they don't tell you directly,
580
00:30:58,813 --> 00:31:02,295
but you realize it through actions.
581
00:31:02,847 --> 00:31:05,879
It could be,
suppose you're sitting at a table
582
00:31:05,879 --> 00:31:08,361
or sitting somewhere,
and all of a sudden the place is full
583
00:31:08,361 --> 00:31:10,935
so there's no more room for you
and you don't know where to sit.
584
00:31:11,835 --> 00:31:14,235
It may be in the attribution
of certain roles.
585
00:31:14,545 --> 00:31:19,582
What I learned
is to confront intelligently,
586
00:31:20,501 --> 00:31:24,109
which is not always easy,
and it's still not easy to do.
587
00:31:24,420 --> 00:31:26,900
But the conversation,
588
00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:31,040
once you have asserted yourself,
589
00:31:31,540 --> 00:31:34,399
is often a formidable tool.
590
00:31:35,395 --> 00:31:39,635
And to dare to question
without seeking an answer,
591
00:31:39,855 --> 00:31:42,450
dare to question
the opponent, I would say,
592
00:31:42,450 --> 00:31:46,345
or dare to question the person
or the contexts.
593
00:31:46,805 --> 00:31:49,852
And when it is a collective situation,
594
00:31:50,005 --> 00:31:55,585
because unfortunately,
this happens too,
595
00:31:56,665 --> 00:31:59,630
you have to call a pause,
596
00:31:59,630 --> 00:32:01,403
and say: “We need to talk.
597
00:32:02,210 --> 00:32:04,530
You need to really listen
598
00:32:04,530 --> 00:32:07,350
and I know you won't be happy
with what I'm going to say,
599
00:32:08,150 --> 00:32:10,425
but we'll have to examine the situation.
600
00:32:10,425 --> 00:32:12,345
You probably won't like
the mirror I'll show you,
601
00:32:12,345 --> 00:32:16,000
you might not be happy with my mirror
nor even agree with it,
602
00:32:16,345 --> 00:32:18,505
but I don't expect an answer
from you today.
603
00:32:18,505 --> 00:32:21,700
I just ask you to understand
604
00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:23,820
that there's a mirror
waiting for you to look into.
605
00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:26,720
Pluck up your courage,
and hold your mirror to them.
606
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,410
Then sometimes, it works for some people.
607
00:32:29,410 --> 00:32:33,431
There really were wonderful stories
608
00:32:33,727 --> 00:32:37,890
of reconciliation, of encounters,
609
00:32:38,735 --> 00:32:43,014
of respect, of apologies,
and I do believe in that.
610
00:32:44,915 --> 00:32:47,266
The human being,
just like other species,
611
00:32:47,266 --> 00:32:52,830
is compelled to adapt and to evolve.
612
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:55,672
We are not different from other species.
613
00:32:55,863 --> 00:32:58,239
However, there are people
who are tough.
614
00:32:58,239 --> 00:33:04,047
But as long as things
are done with respect,
615
00:33:04,065 --> 00:33:06,120
and sometimes it's good to let time pass.
616
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,735
I for one, let go of certain things
617
00:33:08,995 --> 00:33:13,373
and I remained without saying a word
for several years,
618
00:33:13,373 --> 00:33:15,015
not because I didn't want to say a word,
619
00:33:15,015 --> 00:33:17,197
it's not because I don't say
a word in front of people
620
00:33:17,197 --> 00:33:18,978
that I don't do anything
in the background.
621
00:33:19,470 --> 00:33:22,453
And I think that BOW'T TRAIL
is a perfect example of that.
622
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,942
When the 75 video
web documentary came out
623
00:33:27,942 --> 00:33:30,903
and I'm told that there are still
more videos which were not published yet,
624
00:33:30,903 --> 00:33:32,530
I didn't find the time to release them,
625
00:33:33,115 --> 00:33:35,255
when Radio-Canada announced,
626
00:33:36,091 --> 00:33:38,240
three days after I had given birth
to my little one,
627
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,385
that they would take a web documentary,
the web series and a medium-length film,
628
00:33:42,905 --> 00:33:46,646
I was holding my child,
and I said to my team:
629
00:33:46,646 --> 00:33:49,670
"Will you let me have a week off,
I just gave birth."
630
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,139
I really was not expecting
to see three of my projects
631
00:33:54,139 --> 00:33:56,160
being released on Radio Cannes
at the same time.
632
00:33:56,702 --> 00:34:01,965
I was really scared
of not being able to produce
633
00:34:01,965 --> 00:34:03,684
everything I had harvested over the years,
634
00:34:03,684 --> 00:34:06,021
because not a single broadcast
company would accept them.
635
00:34:06,265 --> 00:34:07,596
We were told no,
636
00:34:08,025 --> 00:34:10,364
that it wouldn't interest people,
then that was it.
637
00:34:11,659 --> 00:34:12,659
So,
638
00:34:13,275 --> 00:34:15,902
I deeply believe in conversation,
639
00:34:17,250 --> 00:34:19,050
but in its own time.
640
00:34:21,060 --> 00:34:23,225
When I say in its own time,
641
00:34:24,375 --> 00:34:26,418
it means that not everyone
is ready to converse.
642
00:34:26,570 --> 00:34:28,521
You should not force yourself to converse.
643
00:34:28,975 --> 00:34:31,344
Then even when there is
a situation of discrimination,
644
00:34:31,344 --> 00:34:33,295
if you want to sit down and talk,
645
00:34:34,045 --> 00:34:36,015
if you're not ready, you're not ready.
646
00:34:36,705 --> 00:34:38,235
You have the right to not be ready.
647
00:34:38,885 --> 00:34:44,035
Discriminations are scars on the soul.
648
00:34:44,890 --> 00:34:47,106
They often last for a lifetime.
649
00:34:47,690 --> 00:34:49,263
And at this depth,
650
00:34:50,490 --> 00:34:54,110
if it is even slightly grasped by people,
651
00:34:55,050 --> 00:34:59,875
this will allow them to understand
why there is no conversation,
652
00:35:00,785 --> 00:35:03,795
why it can take five years,
six years, seven years,
653
00:35:04,575 --> 00:35:07,165
why there will be a distance
654
00:35:08,075 --> 00:35:10,825
and why, when the time comes
that we can talk to each other,
655
00:35:10,825 --> 00:35:12,025
it will be the right time.
656
00:35:13,290 --> 00:35:18,745
So meet, give yourself time,
educate yourself,
657
00:35:19,050 --> 00:35:23,545
read, watch documentaries,
talk with people.
658
00:35:28,315 --> 00:35:32,182
I think this is going to be
our last questions,
659
00:35:33,275 --> 00:35:35,755
I'd like to talk again
about your creations,
660
00:35:36,060 --> 00:35:38,997
we thought about this before,
we mentioned it,
661
00:35:39,303 --> 00:35:42,960
how do you precisely approach racism
662
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,047
and other such stakes in your creations?
663
00:35:45,047 --> 00:35:47,405
I know you explained to us
664
00:35:47,405 --> 00:35:51,489
how you handled
the documentary choreography,
665
00:35:51,489 --> 00:35:55,776
but when we're talking about racism,
have you created one
666
00:35:55,776 --> 00:36:00,437
and if so, what was your foundation?
667
00:36:00,437 --> 00:36:03,397
Was it about your past or witnesses?
668
00:36:06,605 --> 00:36:08,890
What is interesting
in documentary choreography,
669
00:36:08,890 --> 00:36:10,630
is it's never about me.
670
00:36:10,630 --> 00:36:12,980
I can start from an experience,
671
00:36:12,980 --> 00:36:16,829
I think that like any person,
we are biased on a subject
672
00:36:17,972 --> 00:36:19,392
because we have experienced it.
673
00:36:20,285 --> 00:36:23,885
The beauty of it
is the BOW'T TRAIL journey
674
00:36:23,885 --> 00:36:27,697
because not all my works speak
of racism and discrimination.
675
00:36:28,445 --> 00:36:30,171
Even BOW'T TRAIL is a journey,
676
00:36:30,925 --> 00:36:35,420
yes, that talks about the slave trade,
about discrimination,
677
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:37,260
but it's moving forward.
678
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,582
And the 15 musicians with whom
I have worked all over the world,
679
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,840
it highlights the strength of resilience,
680
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,360
the force of cultural re-creation.
681
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,020
It's still quite fascinating that today,
682
00:36:49,855 --> 00:36:51,924
today, we are not capable,
683
00:36:53,745 --> 00:36:57,584
we are not even capable in fact
to name all the rhythms
684
00:36:57,584 --> 00:37:00,669
and all the musical movements of the world
685
00:37:01,029 --> 00:37:04,680
which exist based on African,
Afrodescendant rhythms,
686
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,050
because as we speak,
687
00:37:06,050 --> 00:37:08,208
there are plenty more being created,
688
00:37:08,208 --> 00:37:09,410
that we don't even know about.
689
00:37:09,410 --> 00:37:11,485
I take an example, when I was in Brazil,
690
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,200
there is what is called the Passinho.
691
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,455
The young people from the favelas
came to tell me about this.
692
00:37:18,755 --> 00:37:20,889
I was in a museum called
693
00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:25,475
El Museo de los Pretos Novos,
in Rio de Janeiro.
694
00:37:25,475 --> 00:37:28,115
They were sitting with researchers,
then we talked,
695
00:37:28,115 --> 00:37:30,700
I talked about my research.
696
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,520
There was a silent lady
who told me, "I am a lawyer,
697
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,380
I am also a dancer, Carolina Peres,
698
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,918
I was the only black lawyer
in my university,
699
00:37:41,918 --> 00:37:43,521
then I launched a movement
700
00:37:44,245 --> 00:37:49,988
which allows young people to mobilize
rather than using weapons."
701
00:37:50,925 --> 00:37:54,045
Then at the time, it was every...
702
00:37:55,555 --> 00:37:58,410
I think it was every 30 minutes...
703
00:37:58,410 --> 00:38:00,494
Oh my God, I should review the statistics.
704
00:38:00,494 --> 00:38:04,090
Every 23 minutes,
there is a young black man
705
00:38:04,090 --> 00:38:07,156
who dies because
of systemic racism in Brazil,
706
00:38:07,156 --> 00:38:08,400
that was in 2016.
707
00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:13,068
So this situation,
708
00:38:13,068 --> 00:38:14,729
she told me, "I have young sons,
709
00:38:14,729 --> 00:38:17,095
and one of them
might just go any moment
710
00:38:17,095 --> 00:38:20,374
because the police made
a different decision about his life."
711
00:38:21,825 --> 00:38:23,055
Then when I arrived in Brazil,
712
00:38:23,055 --> 00:38:28,070
there was a demonstration
with Afrodescendant and Native mothers
713
00:38:28,070 --> 00:38:29,670
marching side by side
714
00:38:30,050 --> 00:38:32,200
to fight against racial discrimination.
715
00:38:34,210 --> 00:38:36,850
When we talk about racism in our works,
716
00:38:36,850 --> 00:38:39,336
for me, it's more about giving a voice
717
00:38:39,336 --> 00:38:41,822
to those women
who were marching in the street,
718
00:38:42,205 --> 00:38:45,355
to give a voice to these young people
who told me about Passinho,
719
00:38:45,355 --> 00:38:47,972
who tell me that they dance
barefoot in the favela
720
00:38:47,972 --> 00:38:49,508
to say that they still exist.
721
00:38:49,545 --> 00:38:51,615
Then how I gave them
a voice in the artwork,
722
00:38:51,615 --> 00:38:56,160
I was in tears
when they told me their stories
723
00:38:56,380 --> 00:38:59,724
that despite me being solo,
I told them, I can't dance a solo,
724
00:38:59,900 --> 00:39:02,511
that would be me not listening to you.
725
00:39:02,710 --> 00:39:05,595
Which means that halfway through my work
when I go to open my message,
726
00:39:05,595 --> 00:39:07,075
because I always have a message,
727
00:39:07,655 --> 00:39:09,770
I need you to leave the audience,
728
00:39:09,770 --> 00:39:13,175
then you come on stage
and do what you want,
729
00:39:13,175 --> 00:39:16,646
it's not about excellence, perfection,
730
00:39:16,646 --> 00:39:19,305
it's about the excellence of saying
to the people that you exist,
731
00:39:19,305 --> 00:39:21,595
and that you may not be there
for much longer.
732
00:39:22,060 --> 00:39:24,354
I would like you to come
speak out in my work,
733
00:39:24,354 --> 00:39:26,729
and do what you want with it,
it belongs to you.
734
00:39:27,314 --> 00:39:30,534
And this is how I speak.
735
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,117
This is how I give voice
because I build bridges with realities.
736
00:39:35,675 --> 00:39:38,101
Then we talked
to these young people again,
737
00:39:38,101 --> 00:39:40,575
they had tears in their eyes,
they said to me : "Rhodnie,
738
00:39:40,575 --> 00:39:43,595
you understood our reality,
you understood what we are going through."
739
00:39:43,595 --> 00:39:47,335
As for me, I am happy because
I was able to show people that I exist,
740
00:39:47,345 --> 00:39:51,576
but we are not applauding a work
because it's beautiful or not.
741
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,980
These are matters of life and death.
742
00:39:55,830 --> 00:39:59,089
And in the end, it's also
what BOW'T TRAIL is about.
743
00:39:59,089 --> 00:40:01,300
BOW'T TRAIL tells exactly that.
744
00:40:01,995 --> 00:40:04,051
The manner how I trace these images,
745
00:40:04,051 --> 00:40:07,515
is through gravity
that resides in my body.
746
00:40:07,515 --> 00:40:09,725
So when I dance BOW'T TRAIL Retrospek,
747
00:40:10,427 --> 00:40:14,017
I would even challenge you to learn
an excerpt from BOW'T TRAIL Rétrospek.
748
00:40:14,310 --> 00:40:19,418
You need to feel
the 140 testimonies in your body
749
00:40:19,418 --> 00:40:20,750
all speaking at the same time,
750
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:21,960
then one gesture,
751
00:40:22,170 --> 00:40:24,170
it's 140 voices at the same time.
752
00:40:24,970 --> 00:40:27,495
That's the weight
of BOW'T TRAIL Rétrospek
753
00:40:27,495 --> 00:40:29,260
That's why I love it so much.
754
00:40:29,540 --> 00:40:30,540
So,
755
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:34,845
addressing inequity issues
756
00:40:35,555 --> 00:40:37,716
means agreeing to put your body
757
00:40:39,451 --> 00:40:41,691
in a burning oven.
758
00:40:42,350 --> 00:40:44,060
Like that, yes.
759
00:40:45,345 --> 00:40:46,830
We are far from aesthetics.
760
00:40:46,830 --> 00:40:48,500
We don't take away the aesthetics.
761
00:40:48,755 --> 00:40:50,590
But you know,
762
00:40:53,460 --> 00:40:57,684
dancing goes beyond just saying,
I want to achieve that.
763
00:40:58,215 --> 00:41:02,474
That you carry inside you
such a strong message
764
00:41:03,255 --> 00:41:06,055
that it is absolutely necessary
that you pass it on to someone else.
765
00:41:06,055 --> 00:41:08,229
That's what interests me in my works.
766
00:41:08,743 --> 00:41:09,883
That's it, I'll stop there.
767
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:13,820
- That's super inspiring, thank you.
- Rhodnie, thank you.
768
00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:15,460
Thank you so much.
769
00:41:17,085 --> 00:41:20,375
One last question
to conclude the discussion,
770
00:41:20,375 --> 00:41:22,679
what are you currently working on?
771
00:41:24,282 --> 00:41:26,402
Any plans, things like that?
772
00:41:26,885 --> 00:41:29,945
Yes, so right now,
this is really my beautiful baby.
773
00:41:29,945 --> 00:41:32,025
So right now, Im finally updating
774
00:41:32,025 --> 00:41:34,205
something I've been wanting
to develop for 10 years
775
00:41:34,205 --> 00:41:36,942
which is a documentary
choreographic laboratory
776
00:41:36,942 --> 00:41:38,760
which means that RD Créations
777
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,787
having developed expertise today
in documentary choreography,
778
00:41:42,787 --> 00:41:45,427
we are now launching two laboratories
at the same time,
779
00:41:45,427 --> 00:41:48,900
it means that we are developing
our works in prototype form,
780
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:51,722
a bit like engineers
who do research and development.
781
00:41:52,055 --> 00:41:53,835
We do prototyping of works
782
00:41:53,850 --> 00:41:56,093
to see the full potential around the work
783
00:41:56,093 --> 00:41:59,663
both at the partner, costumes,
dance and lighting level.
784
00:41:59,895 --> 00:42:02,484
So, we just entered
two creation prototypes
785
00:42:02,484 --> 00:42:03,484
for our two subjects.
786
00:42:03,775 --> 00:42:05,355
The first one is called SCÒ.
787
00:42:06,535 --> 00:42:10,736
SCÒ addresses the issue of scoliosis.
788
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:12,415
I have scoliosis.
789
00:42:12,415 --> 00:42:14,643
So, while we are talking about
resistance and inequity,
790
00:42:14,643 --> 00:42:17,248
I had scoliosis and I almost had surgery.
791
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,040
But I kept dancing and I still do.
792
00:42:22,175 --> 00:42:24,365
So, SCÒ addresses the issue
793
00:42:24,365 --> 00:42:27,535
of all these psychological
and physiological twists
794
00:42:27,535 --> 00:42:32,519
that young teenage girls
have to carry until adulthood.
795
00:42:33,450 --> 00:42:34,930
And I say young girl because
796
00:42:34,930 --> 00:42:38,230
it's mainly 90% if not more
of young girls who suffer from it.
797
00:42:38,770 --> 00:42:42,870
And it's going to become
a digital installation
798
00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:46,215
with performance
and musical performance.
799
00:42:47,875 --> 00:42:50,755
Then in fact, another work
is also coming soon,
800
00:42:50,755 --> 00:42:54,455
I'm starting right now
my research regarding KÒSA.
801
00:42:54,915 --> 00:42:58,127
KÒSA in Creole means this body
802
00:42:58,518 --> 00:43:02,458
and we address the issue of death
told from the children
803
00:43:02,900 --> 00:43:08,170
and from specialists in astrophysics,
in theology and dermatology.
804
00:43:09,511 --> 00:43:10,511
Wow!
805
00:43:15,317 --> 00:43:19,318
Just to compare, but do you have
places where you present them
806
00:43:19,318 --> 00:43:23,077
or it will be on the internet,
do you still know...?
807
00:43:24,580 --> 00:43:30,030
In fact, the beauty of
a documentary choreographic laboratory,
808
00:43:30,660 --> 00:43:33,700
is we give ourselves the freedom
not to know how it will turn out,
809
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:34,919
and that's the fun of it.
810
00:43:34,919 --> 00:43:39,800
For example, SCÒ, I was convinced
it was going be a group work
811
00:43:40,315 --> 00:43:44,074
with maybe four, five performers,
812
00:43:44,355 --> 00:43:46,705
then we were going to have
scenographic objects on stage,
813
00:43:46,705 --> 00:43:48,779
then the musicians we work with,
814
00:43:49,425 --> 00:43:50,855
the Aukan group in Toronto,
815
00:43:50,855 --> 00:43:53,438
we say OK,
it's going to be a work on stage.
816
00:43:54,090 --> 00:43:59,210
And after 36 hours of creation
in the laboratory with a scenographer,
817
00:43:59,210 --> 00:44:02,010
videographer, lighting coordinator,
818
00:44:02,010 --> 00:44:06,080
the testimonies I collected
from Saint-Justine, chiropractors,
819
00:44:06,750 --> 00:44:07,860
a lot of people.
820
00:44:09,025 --> 00:44:11,301
And with the University of Montreal
as a partner too.
821
00:44:12,615 --> 00:44:17,985
In the end, I realized it wasn't
a dance show on a regular stage,
822
00:44:18,515 --> 00:44:21,985
that the message had to be channelled
823
00:44:21,985 --> 00:44:27,867
in an audio, digital, projection
and performance installation,
824
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:29,569
from time to time,
825
00:44:29,989 --> 00:44:32,752
which means that our new market
becomes museums.
826
00:44:33,352 --> 00:44:36,230
So, RD Créations
has already set up an exhibition,
827
00:44:37,110 --> 00:44:38,825
the Conversation exhibition,
828
00:44:38,825 --> 00:44:41,395
but we are going to do
our second iteration
829
00:44:41,395 --> 00:44:43,484
in digital installation,
830
00:44:43,854 --> 00:44:45,225
then it will be the SCÒ project.
831
00:44:45,225 --> 00:44:47,577
In fact, we are right on the dot
right now,
832
00:44:47,577 --> 00:44:48,807
which means that the dance,
833
00:44:49,225 --> 00:44:51,728
then the documentary choreography
takes us to something else.
834
00:44:52,420 --> 00:44:54,180
And in holding this freedom,
835
00:44:54,180 --> 00:44:57,720
if we had sealed it right away
with a dance diffuser,
836
00:44:57,940 --> 00:45:02,230
we would be in a bad position to say
that in the end, it wasn't a dance show.
837
00:45:02,420 --> 00:45:04,894
The dance show is coming
into the performance
838
00:45:04,894 --> 00:45:07,325
of the digital installation
which should be in a museum.
839
00:45:07,555 --> 00:45:10,752
Whereas now, we are really capable
of having an even clearer vision,
840
00:45:10,752 --> 00:45:12,715
a more measured proposal,
841
00:45:12,715 --> 00:45:14,745
then an ability to rally partners
842
00:45:14,745 --> 00:45:17,390
which will be all the more oriented
towards what we want to do.
843
00:45:17,775 --> 00:45:21,450
Then for KÒSA,
I imagine it is my next symphony
844
00:45:21,450 --> 00:45:26,003
as it is still a work
which is likely to be quite big
845
00:45:26,003 --> 00:45:28,362
because of the three major subjects
that we are approaching.
846
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,202
And it's a piece scheduled for 2028, 2029.
847
00:45:31,855 --> 00:45:34,309
So, we work on three years,
848
00:45:34,525 --> 00:45:38,115
our company, our creations rarely drop,
849
00:45:38,255 --> 00:45:41,955
the earliest is two and a half years,
two years and some of work,
850
00:45:42,355 --> 00:45:45,075
but the documentary choreography
requires three years of work.
851
00:45:45,500 --> 00:45:48,598
You really, really need
good documentation,
852
00:45:48,598 --> 00:45:50,219
relevant archiving,
853
00:45:50,540 --> 00:45:52,090
rallied partners,
854
00:45:52,330 --> 00:45:55,840
a choreography where the signature,
is all the more refined.
855
00:45:56,060 --> 00:46:00,060
Then let's not forget polyrhythm
for RD Créations and language,
856
00:46:00,060 --> 00:46:02,502
documentary choreography
which is really important.
857
00:46:02,788 --> 00:46:07,257
If we want body language
to be really strong,
858
00:46:07,495 --> 00:46:11,489
musical language must also be written
859
00:46:11,489 --> 00:46:14,190
at the same time than body language.
860
00:46:14,510 --> 00:46:17,170
So this is another body
that we could talk about.
861
00:46:17,170 --> 00:46:20,736
What is the link
body/music, body/instrument.
862
00:46:22,030 --> 00:46:23,069
Yes,
863
00:46:23,070 --> 00:46:27,107
the role of the musician as an accompanist
864
00:46:27,915 --> 00:46:29,266
outside the classic
865
00:46:29,266 --> 00:46:32,150
because there's a whole universe
in polyrhythm.
866
00:46:33,915 --> 00:46:36,670
Super inspiring, really inspiring.
867
00:46:36,670 --> 00:46:40,813
Thank you very much for your time
868
00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:44,260
allowing us to discuss and chat like that,
it's really interesting.
869
00:46:44,510 --> 00:46:47,140
I'm happy to hear that,
but I have a question for you.
870
00:46:47,369 --> 00:46:48,369
Yes.
871
00:46:48,369 --> 00:46:53,370
I would like to know today,
if you look at the dance world,
872
00:46:53,370 --> 00:46:56,855
you have your dreams, but what are they?
873
00:47:02,264 --> 00:47:05,722
I think that touching people
874
00:47:05,836 --> 00:47:08,666
because I dream of being on stage,
875
00:47:08,666 --> 00:47:12,139
but more than impacting myself,
876
00:47:12,139 --> 00:47:14,410
I want to have an impact
on those around me.
877
00:47:14,410 --> 00:47:18,402
So I think that all that
you explained to us today,
878
00:47:18,402 --> 00:47:21,290
what you shared with us is inspiring
879
00:47:21,290 --> 00:47:25,060
because it confirms that it is possible
880
00:47:26,010 --> 00:47:29,460
to touch hundreds and thousands of people
881
00:47:30,535 --> 00:47:32,715
and yes, that's it.
882
00:47:32,775 --> 00:47:34,586
For me, it's a bit the same thing,
883
00:47:34,586 --> 00:47:38,924
I think it's about living
especially through dance
884
00:47:38,924 --> 00:47:43,284
and see how it can affect everyone,
885
00:47:43,284 --> 00:47:47,398
then I would say people
are more open nowadays,
886
00:47:47,398 --> 00:47:51,470
and the fact that we are open
to all communities,
887
00:47:51,470 --> 00:47:54,530
and that everyone will have
the opportunity to dance,
888
00:47:54,750 --> 00:47:56,252
so that's my dream.
889
00:47:57,265 --> 00:47:59,555
It's that there are no more barriers.
890
00:48:00,235 --> 00:48:02,825
I wish that for you collectively, yes.
891
00:48:03,110 --> 00:48:04,120
Thank you!
892
00:48:04,415 --> 00:48:07,705
Yes, to make the biggest dreams come true,
893
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,120
the wildest dreams
that you already have in mind
894
00:48:11,570 --> 00:48:13,860
and especially those
that you don't know yet.
895
00:48:16,210 --> 00:48:18,180
Yes, thank you.
896
00:48:19,552 --> 00:48:25,181
Follow those young Canadians and join them
in their efforts to change the world