<i>L'évolution du ballet</i>

in collaboration with
<i>l'École supérieure de ballet du Québec</i>

presents One career, One story
An interview with Rhodnie Désir

"L'évolution du ballet",
an initiative led by young people,

not only invites Canada's youth
to rally around equity, reconciliation

and racism against Black persons
within the ballet world,

but also gives them the means
to achieve this goal.

The talk is presented
by two leaders of the project

- Hello, my name is Victoria,
- And I'm Héloïse

and welcome to One Career, One Story
A discussion with Rhodnie Désir.

This is a learning session
for the Ballet Forward project,

which is a project that brings together
about 30 students

from Canada's five major
professional ballet schools.

It is a project that allows us
to address issues of fairness,

reconciliation and racism

directed towards Blacks
in the ballet world,

but more importantly,
to find ways to combat these issues.

Our goal is to make the ballet world
as well as the artistic world

more inclusive and accessible
to the entire Canadian population.

So today, we have the chance
and the great honour

to welcome Rhodnie Désir.

Mrs. Désir is a documentary choreographer,
dancer and chief creative officer

with RD Créations, her own company.

She has produced around 30 creations

and recently collaborated
with Danse Danse.

Some of her projects earned her
two Montreal dance awards :

the Envol Award and the Dance Grand Prix.

Rhodnie's choreographic signature
is linked to her roots in Haiti,

as well as other parts of the Caribbean,
Africa, Central Africa,

and sub-Saharan Africa.

We can refer to her style
as "Afro-contemporary".

Rhodnie is an amazing and inspiring woman

and most importantly,
she's truly involved in the community,

which earned her
international recognition.

Thank you very much, Rhodnie,
for being with us today.

I will hand over to you,

so you can talk to us
about your career and everything.

Thank you, thank you very much
for this introduction.

It's a real joy to be with you,

because it takes me back
to the time when I was your age

and was dreaming of making
a career in this field.

How would I summarize my career?

I think it's important
to mention that I grew up...,

I have been dancing
since I was three years old

and my initial training
was classical ballet.

And later on, I wanted
to join the artistic world,

but of course, as I was coming
from a Haitian family,

the understanding
and explanation were like,

"We want to make sure that you can
get by in life and in the arts,

and maybe that's not the right path."

That was the mindset back then.

So, I went looking for another training,

while I was still pursuing
my dance classes.

Which means that I was pursuing
two diplomas at the same time,

one in communication and marketing,

and another one in dance,
which was classical dance back then.

However, at the same time,

I directed my practice a little more
towards Afro-contemporary dances,

as you have explained correctly.

I would summarize my career
as a succession of milestones

where I would constantly
evaluate how far I've gone,

and how I can be useful,

how my dancing can be useful,
and how art can be useful.

And I like to say that
what I'm doing today,

is what is called
“documentary choreography”

and we can delve more into the subject.

It is a methodology
that I wanted to develop

to achieve my own ambition.

But maybe in five years,

dancing will help me
to think about architecture.

Then maybe in ten years,
it will help me to consider

developing a new cultural hub.

I see dance as an element of my career,

as a tool to open new doors.

And that's how I would summarize
the vision of my career.

You mentioned that you are
a documentary choreographer.

I'm not sure what it means,
can you please further explain?

You also said that you are 
a Chief Creative Officer,

when we last spoke,

so these are the two things
I would like to know.

Actually, one thing I can say
is that what I'm currently doing

is exactly what I was doing
when I was seven years old.

When I was young,
I used to live in Laval,

in a community nearby, for people 
who live outside of Montreal,

it's not very far
from the city of Montreal.

And I was simply curious
about my neighbours, about humans,

and I wanted to understand
how humans work.

So, some might say
that it is a journalistic approach,

others, that it is
an anthropological approach.

But in all of this, I just wanted
to understand how humans work.

Then I realized that dancing
and asking questions,

when you create, when you want to create,

may sometimes lead you
to make some assumptions.

What is documentary choreography?

I could summarize it by saying
that it's done in four main stages.

Often, an idea will arise in me
when I see a social challenge.

For instance,

if I consider the current situation
around deportations

happening in the United States,

it's a disaster, it's chaos,

and it raises a lot of questions
regarding injustice and unfairness

throughout the world.

In relation to that,

I can choose to either get angry
in front of my screen or to wonder,

How about interviewing people
with different mindsets,

so I can better understand
what's going on,

and then maybe I could make use of my art

to offer a vision,

a hypothesis in relation
to what's going on.

So, I start by holding interviews.

I have my question: What is bothering me?

What's making my stomach ache?

What makes me want to scream, to shout,
what is it that seems so unfair to me?

After that, I ask myself:
Who could I meet?

And then, I will go and meet
some experts in a specific field.

On this topic, they may be sociologists,
politicians, social workers,

migrant-hosting organizations

or people with connections

with the communities
who are being deported.

They could be family members,

or the very people who are being deported,
who are being transferred,

they could be policemen, policewomen.

From there on, my backpack
is full of information.

And there are lots of tools in it.

Then, as I reshuffle
those tools in my bag,

I can hand some of them over
to some musicians who might say,

"I can hear a rhythm there."

And this rhythm might inspire me
to make some types of gestures,

gestures that are more circular

or that have more weight,
more physicality, more poise,

movements that are sharper,

because someone's telling me,
"It's going so fast, I am confused."

So, the image arising in me
from these words,

is one of sharpness, of physicality,

weight, aerobatics,

flowing down to the ground.

So, I start from my idea, 
from the question,

I bring this to the witnesses,
to the specialists,

the specialists are the human element.

Their testimonies take me away
towards other creators and designers.

I bring this to the interpreters,

and all along this line of process,
I also compose songs.

I compose songs in an invented language.

I like to say that it's a language
that I don't speak,

but that I speak secretly.

And after that,

I arrive at the work phase.

This work is a hypothesis
that I offer to the citizens

who become my audience.

So, documentary choreography allows us

to preserve the peoples' memories,

it allows us to excavate social issues
based on orality.

It eventually takes me back to one
of my great loves which is orality.

Through the ages,

oral tradition, which means 
speaking to each other,

telling stories to each other,

"I tell you something, keep it secret...",

has transcended all ages.

I think it will beat AI
for a very long time.

So, I rely on this basis,

then after that, I can develop my work

and that's what I have been doing 
through most of my works.

So, that led me 
to connect with specialists :

experts in social sciences, 
anthropology, history,

ethnomusicology, ethnology
and what have you,

to connect with environment specialists

in relation to climate change
as requested.

It got me to connect with specialists
like, at the present time,

experts in theology, thanatology,
and astrophysics.

Now, how will the body deploy this
through documentary choreography?

It's about listening,

then trying to put your body
and knowledge at the service of the cause.

That's all I can say.

So that's it, it was a lot of talk,

but basically, this is what
documentary choreography is about,

I hope it was clear.

I've watched videos of a choregraphy
that you have created about the heart.

That's right.

I found it really beautiful,

but I think that,
it's documentary choreography,

you really represented
not the heart just like that,

but the actual human heart in motion.

I saw some videos
and I found it really beautiful.

What is really interesting,

actually, what I find fascinating
with documentary choreographies,

is that truly, 
I could do this all my life.

It's the one thing, I can tell myself,
when I'm 90 years old,

I can still reflect on

how we could explain to people

the challenges experienced by young people

who cannot find their bearings,
for example.

Or by a five year old child
who suffers from malnutrition

but who still has to go to school.

How can we tell
the story of his resilience?

What's interesting
about the story of the heart,

about <i>Symphonie de cœurs</i>,

is that I always thought 
that I'd never create a work about love,

because I don't think
that I have a lot to say,

and the theme in itself
does not impress me that much.

It's not that I don't care
about actual love,

but because I couldn't find any core
that I wanted to address.

And when I became interested
in cardiovascular diseases

and stories of resilience 
that people live through,

and how, within the body,

the heart and the entire
cardiovascular system,

which is in direct connection
with the dancing process, works,

and going into operating rooms,
seeing open hearts,

and the whole system as it moves,

and seeing how the surgical teams
in the operating rooms work,

which are actual choreographies
being performed before your eyes...

As I left these spaces,
I had plenty of materials,

which I could use,
together with the conductor,

to provide guidance to the orchestra.

I would say things like,

"Now they should play
with more affirmation,

because when instruments fall
in the operating room,

I need us to create real chaos
in order to set the scene."

I was able to recount
each step of the cardiac transplant,

what actually is emptiness like,

and I was able to tell the musicians,

"You've been excelling at playing
the same thing for maybe 40 years,

but now, I need you to act
as if you didn't know how to play anymore,

because that is
what a cardiac transplant is about.

A new heart is implanted in your body,

your body is on the blink,

and no matter how top-notch
your technique may be,

you must instantly drop it all

and start again from scratch.

So that was a challenge
also for the musicians.

In other words, 
documentary choreography,

to make a long story short,

is really a tool that allows us
to better challenge dance,

to better challenge the power of art,

and to better challenge

where the human being stands
today in society.

It's really fascinating.

It's clear that you are very present

and involved in all social problems.

Is there a personal reason or story

why you became truly interested

in the problems we face
in our society today?

Was there something personal
that really gave birth

to this urge to research and create?

Yes, actually,

I can mention that in 2014...

I started choreographic methodology
in 2015.

That's when I officially started
the documentary choreography methodology.

In 2013, I created a piece called <i>BOW'T</i>

which talks about migration
and deportation,

and I wanted to establish a bridge
between these two themes.

And when the time came
to tour this <i>BOW'T</i> piece,

here in Montreal, in Quebec,

my agent and I came up
against systemic barriers.

How were they expressed?

Mainly, we were told things like,
"Rhodnie's dance is very traditional",

whereas I have never performed
traditional dances in my created works.

I did take classes,

but it has nothing to do
with what I present.

So I realized that there was really
a big misunderstanding issue

and many hurdles were raised

beyond a mere analysis
of the excellence of my work,

of whether it is excellent or not,

if the understanding
of what excellence can be

for a work expressed in a language
that is not that of classical ballet

or eurocentric contemporary dance,

how contemporary dance is vulgarized,

I saw that there were barriers,

and a lot of education
was yet to be done.

So, I wanted to leave the milieu,

as I couldn't picture myself
in it anymore.

But a beautiful life saver manifested

in the shape of an idea,

which was to develop a project
whereby I would demonstrate

to what extent African
and Afrodescendant cultures

are purely contemporary.

And even if they are ancestral,

they are indeed contemporary

because they directly combine
with the people who are creating

and renewing it in the present moment.

So I created <i>BOW'T TRAIL</i>.

<i>BOW'T TRAIL</i> is a remembrance journey
through the Americas,

which led me to seven territories
across the Americas

where I re-created each time
the same piece.

When I say "re-create",
I mean that there is the <i>BOW'T</i> work,

there are like walls on the stage,

there is my body, there is a musician,

and there are three wooden boxes.

These three wooden boxes
followed me to Martinique, to Haiti,

to Brazil, to New Orleans,
to Mexico, to Halifax

and to [Chojag] Montreal.

So I took the same piece of work
and I challenged myself,

What if I gave myself 30 days
to re-create it from A to Z

with some local musicians?

As a matter of fact,
I didn't know the musicians,

I didn't know if we would get along,

we didn't even speak the same language,
I didn't speak Portuguese.

I would mumble some pidgin words
to try to say,

"Can we develop this?
Here is my idea", while I was in Brazil.

And they would reply, “Rhodnie,

we don't know what language
you are speaking.

The show is in two weeks' time
and we don't understand,

but based on your gestures,
I guess we understand each other."

So eventually, dance opened doors for me,

helped me speak languages
that I could not speak,

and create succesfully.

Then after 30 days,

I presented my work
at a remembrance place.

And the <i>BOW'T</i> work that was created
in each one of those countries

will never tour,
not in my life, not in my death.

It's already written in my will,
it will not tour.

The only work that can tour
is <i>BOW’T TRAIL Rétrospek</i>,

a work where in fact,
the territory is my body.

And as I was tracing back the memory

and the history of Afrodescendant peoples
in the Americas,

I conducted interviews with specialists
in each one of the territories,

and I realized that it's really trippy.

It's hard to perform <i>BOW'T TRAIL</i>,

but there is something beautiful
and crispy about meeting people,

going straight back to the studio,
and creating from these testimonies,

rather than burying yourself
in history books,

because, once again,

history is poorly told in history books
about African and Afrodescendant issues.

At least, their history
is being rewritten,

but unfortunately, it was poorly written.

What drives me to keep doing
documentary choreography today?

Because I see that it is a tool
for social change,

for a possible social change.

What drives me to create
in the face of injustices?

I grew up in a family
where issues around human rights

were discussed at the dining table.

My parents came to Quebec
during the Duvalier Sr. era,

so for sure, the Haitian radio station,

plus the Quebec radio station

and the US TV channel were all on
at the same time at my place.

I would hear about challenges
occurring in all kinds of places

and my parents would encourage us

to talk with confidence
about those issues,

and to try to solve them
while we were sitting at the table.

We could talk about the Colombia issue

and we would go, "Ah, we don't agree,
what's going on there?"

And we would debate the subject
around the table.

So, I was trained to reflect

about how, as a human being,

we have a role in the decisions we make,

but also to be aware 
of social inequalities,

whether they may be

in terms of the blatant increase
in homelessness rates

and profiles of people

who usually were not identified
as being homeless people,

but who faced this inequity
from one day to the next

due to the housing situation.

So for me,

I quickly spot situations of inequity

not only when they are talked about,
but also when they're not.

And I have always thought that art
is an extremely powerful weapon

and that if I was to use this weapon,

it should be strong enough to capsize
something that is as big as it.

That's my motto.

It doesn't mean that I won't be led
to create works

just for the fun of it,

but I really want to... ,

There needs to be a cause
to which I respond.

This is my art for me.

We would like to move on
to another topic

- if you don't mind,
- Of course!

because actually, Ballet Forward
focuses on anti-Black racism,

so our project goal is to open minds.

And I wanted to know if ballet,

since it was created in Europe
a long time ago

on conservative and traditional grounds,

is an art that can discriminate
and exclude many communities?

And if you are comfortable
talking about the topic,

is racism something
that you have already experienced

or maybe are still experiencing
in the ballet world,

as well as at an earlier stage?

I think the basis...

There are many layers in there.

It's important to remember that

the body is one of the most 
magnificent instruments to rally

and at the same time,

it's one of the most drastic and terrible
instruments to discriminate us.

And dance being an environment,

where the body is the main tool,

unfortunately, whether in ballet
or in other forms,

the gaze and perception

become a measuring tool.

What is it that I perceive
of the capacity of a body

before it even moves?

Do I feel that it fits into the categories

that my practice... defends

or that my practice states?

I'll give you an example.

When I was 11 years old,
I had gone through several auditions

because I wanted to join
a dance-study programme.

Back then, there used to be,
in your current school,

I was told it had a different name
in older days, it was <i>École supérieure</i>...

- Danse?
- No, there was another name,

I can't remember the exact name,

but it seems to me that the title
included <i>École Supérieure de</i>...

there was a... anyway!

I had applied for this school

like most of the girls who were coming out
ot Pierre-Laporte school,

so that was mostly girls.

And I had also applied
to join the Pierre-Laporte School.

And when I received...

I very much wanted to join
the first school I had applied for.

When I received my rejection letter,

the letter did not merely state
that I had been rejected,

It analyzed my body
according to stereotypes

of what ballet should require.

I think I did keep my letter, actually.

It dissected my muscles,

saying that my leg muscles were too wide
compared to the desired aesthetics,

that my curves did not meet
the aesthetic standards.

It was absolutely horrible.

I am convinced that no one would ever send
this kind of letter nowadays,

because times have evolved

and there has been
a lot of education since then.

But when I opened this letter,

I had been waiting for the postman,

I saw the postman coming,
I opened the letter, I was very excited.

Then, it was like a lead coat,

it was carving out a different body

that I supposedly should have.

It's like telling young people
who want to become dancers,

"Here, take this magazine,
look at this body,

then make your body fit inside it.

And if you can't fit, you're out."

And being in an environment
where excellence,

but I would rather say, the stringency,

the relentlessness, which can be positive,

with which you want to achieve perfection,
to surpass yourself,

when you are very young
and have already been trained in this,

and you receive such a letter

telling you to go and sculpt
your body in a different way,

that you don't fit in the cultural codes
that we want in ballet,

and it's not even a matter of size
or what have you.

It's really telling you 
that your body will never fit.

And I remember crumbling down
at that moment.

Luckily, Laporte held auditions
not long after,

and I was selected.

But I still remember sitting 
during my summer training,

with the other people in my class,
and we were telling each other

about the letters we had received
from that school.

So, I do consider that these were
acts of selective discrimination

based on my cultural physiognomy

and not on my accomplishments
in terms of gestures or excellence,

or my training background
in classical ballet.

This was not a comparative measuring tool

related to one's learning experience.

It was based purely on aesthetics.

And that, for me,

was one of the biggest obstacles I saw.

Because I didn't see myself,

while I was very often
the only black person in my classes,

I had not seen these discriminations
until that very moment.

And subsequently in secondary school,

it was obvious in the attribution
of certain roles,

I didn't necessarily get the main roles,

because that possibility
was ruled out fairly fast.

What was also upsetting
unfortunately in ballet,

is that often, your body
within the corps de ballet,

they don't actually tell you why,
but sometimes it can be sneaky,

they pick you up and say,
"Rhodnie, go to the edge.

you see, go to the end."

And you tell yourself,

Okay,,first work, I go to the end,
second work, I go to the end,

third work, I go to the end.

For all works, I'm always at the end,

on all the pictures I look at,
I was always put at the very end.

What am I disturbing
in the corps de ballet?

Is it because I just unbalance the photo?

Or is it because the role I play
should always be on the right?

And this is something
that can be easily seen,

even in other official pictures.

So for me, it was like <i>the</i> thing

that forced me to question,
especially in ballet,

to question about opening.

I had conversations too,
on the opening in the body.

"Ah, you know, it's correct actually,

but can you just bring it to that level?"

Then I said to myself, but no,
I can work my extension,

it's not that I can't.

So these are

small seeds of information

which, while the piano plays,
when we hear "And one, and two",

then [we breathe to see], etc.,

that this information also finds its place

at the same time
as a posture adjustment.

And what happens is - it's sneaky -

but unfortunately, it ends up sculpting

your own perception of your body,

and you want to do a lot more

than the person standing
in front of you or behind you

at the training bar, for example.

So it's because of those little things

that, like other people in my class
who have gone through the same,

I always did more, more, more.

Even when the classes were over,

I would stay in class
to work more and more,

to be able to not only reach the mark

which was given to everyone in the class,

but to also reach my own marks,

and then do better
because I have to do better.

So the result is
that you never feel in your place.

And I will always remember,

I had a teacher one day,
Marie-Rose Chama, to whom I still speak

who came to see me one day
then who told me:

"Rhodnie, I have to tell you
what you will likely experience."

And this woman is of Lebanese origin,

then she took me aside and she said:
"You will experience barriers,

you will experience racism 
in this environment.

There are different markets.

and you will soon audition
for some them,

so I just want you
to get ready right away."

And back then,
I could not understand this woman.

I was thinking, 
Why is she telling me those things?

No, no, I'm fine.

But she was preparing me
for what ballet presented me,

and for what I wasn't told directly,

but she had the courage
to tell me very clearly.

And it was later that
I chose other artistic forms

because it was really what I wanted,

but it is certain that being told
things like:

"When you go up on your toes,
you don't have a perfect line

because we're aware
that your body is different."

These are small adjustments,

but because we know
that in ballet or dance,

there are constant adjustments,

that we always want to be
perfectly aligned with others,

to be one with the corps
or even as a soloist,

it means that we're being set aside.

So that's all, it's a long story,

but I can tell you many others like that.

After sharing all of this with us,

I have a question and so do my peers:

for people who are,

I don't know if it's the same situation,

but who share a feeling of rage or sadness

or feel that they are 
never going to find their place,

do you have any suggestions,

whether it is some advice,

some advice like, I don't know,

it may be more personal,

or trying to understand
the world of dance.

Could you share some advice?

I think that anger has value
in those moments.

And often, we want to,

because we learn to be...

I think that what ballet taught me,
among other things,

as well as other things I learned
in other disciplines,

is to show restraint, politeness,

we don't talk too much,
we don't show too much,

"Don't show, don't show!"

Educating yourself is the best thing.

You have to educate yourself.

Educate yourself,
talk to people from different generations.

I have been speaking with mentors,
and I still do.

I still have mentors

and I will never stop having mentors.

And dare to knock on someone's door,

even if you don't know if this person
may have had the same experience,

but ask them, "Hey, you,
some 10 years ago,

20 years ago or 30 years ago,

could you possibly have gone
through this kind of experience?

And could you tell me about it?"

Share,

never doubt your instinct.

You know it when there is discrimination,

there aren't million different ways.

And many times, you're told,
"Oh, come on, you're exaggerating."

And what I learned,

is that when your instinct tells you
that it is discrimination,

you can be sure that it's true
95% of the time.

And maybe there was a 5%
where I said to myself,

Okay, I admit that I was maybe
a little hasty in the matter.

But the foundation of discrimination,
particularly when it's underhand,

meaning they don't tell you to your face,

they don't tell you directly,

but you realize it through actions.

It could be,
suppose you're sitting at a table

or sitting somewhere,
and all of a sudden the place is full

so there's no more room for you
and you don't know where to sit.

It may be in the attribution
of certain roles.

What I learned
is to confront intelligently,

which is not always easy,
and it's still not easy to do.

But the conversation,

once you have asserted yourself,

is often a formidable tool.

And to dare to question
without seeking an answer,

dare to question
the opponent, I would say,

or dare to question the person
or the contexts.

And when it is a collective situation,

because unfortunately,
this happens too,

you have to call a pause,

and say: “We need to talk.

You need to really listen

and I know you won't be happy 
with what I'm going to say,

but we'll have to examine the situation.

You probably won't like
the mirror I'll show you,

you might not be happy with my mirror
nor even agree with it,

but I don't expect an answer
from you today.

I just ask you to understand

that there's a mirror
waiting for you to look into.

Pluck up your courage,
and hold your mirror to them.

Then sometimes, it works for some people.

There really were wonderful stories

of reconciliation, of encounters,

of respect, of apologies,
and I do believe in that.

The human being,
just like other species,

is compelled to adapt and to evolve.

We are not different from other species.

However, there are people
who are tough.

But as long as things
are done with respect,

and sometimes it's good to let time pass.

I for one, let go of certain things

and I remained without saying a word
for several years,

not because I didn't want to say a word,

it's not because I don't say
a word in front of people

that I don't do anything
in the background.

And I think that <i>BOW'T TRAIL</i>
is a perfect example of that.

When the 75 video
web documentary came out

and I'm told that there are still
more videos which were not published yet,

I didn't find the time to release them,

when Radio-Canada announced,

three days after I had given birth
to my little one,

that they would take a web documentary,
the web series and a medium-length film,

I was holding my child,
and I said to my team:

"Will you let me have a week off,
I just gave birth."

I really was not expecting
to see three of my projects

being released on Radio Cannes
at the same time.

I was really scared
of not being able to produce

everything I had harvested over the years,

because not a single broadcast
company would accept them.

We were told no,

that it wouldn't interest people,
then that was it.

So,

I deeply believe in conversation,

but in its own time.

When I say in its own time,

it means that not everyone
is ready to converse.

You should not force yourself to converse.

Then even when there is
a situation of discrimination,

if you want to sit down and talk,

if you're not ready, you're not ready.

You have the right to not be ready.

Discriminations are scars on the soul.

They often last for a lifetime.

And at this depth,

if it is even slightly grasped by people,

this will allow them to understand
why there is no conversation,

why it can take five years, 
six years, seven years,

why there will be a distance

and why, when the time comes 
that we can talk to each other,

it will be the right time.

So meet, give yourself time, 
educate yourself,

read, watch documentaries,
talk with people.

I think this is going to be
our last questions,

I'd like to talk again
about your creations,

we thought about this before, 
we mentioned it,

how do you precisely approach racism

and other such stakes in your creations?

I know you explained to us

how you handled 
the documentary choreography,

but when we're talking about racism,
have you created one

and if so, what was your foundation?

Was it about your past or witnesses?

What is interesting
in documentary choreography,

is it's never about me.

I can start from an experience,

I think that like any person,
we are biased on a subject

because we have experienced it.

The beauty of it 
is the <i>BOW'T TRAIL</i> journey

because not all my works speak
of racism and discrimination.

Even <i>BOW'T TRAIL</i> is a journey,

yes, that talks about the slave trade,
about discrimination,

but it's moving forward.

And the 15 musicians with whom
I have worked all over the world,

it highlights the strength of resilience,

the force of cultural re-creation.

It's still quite fascinating that today,

today, we are not capable,

we are not even capable in fact
to name all the rhythms

and all the musical movements of the world

which exist based on African, 
Afrodescendant rhythms,

because as we speak,

there are plenty more being created,

that we don't even know about.

I take an example, when I was in Brazil,

there is what is called the <i>Passinho</i>.

The young people from the <i>favelas</i>
came to tell me about this.

I was in a museum called

<i>El Museo de los Pretos Novos</i>,
in Rio de Janeiro.

They were sitting with researchers,
then we talked,

I talked about my research.

There was a silent lady
who told me, "I am a lawyer,

I am also a dancer, Carolina Peres,

I was the only black lawyer
in my university,

then I launched a movement

which allows young people to mobilize
rather than using weapons."

Then at the time, it was every...

I think it was every 30 minutes...

Oh my God, I should review the statistics.

Every 23 minutes,
there is a young black man

who dies because
of systemic racism in Brazil,

that was in 2016.

So this situation,

she told me, "I have young sons,

and one of them
might just go any moment

because the police made
a different decision about his life."

Then when I arrived in Brazil,

there was a demonstration
with Afrodescendant and Native mothers

marching side by side

to fight against racial discrimination.

When we talk about racism in our works,

for me, it's more about giving a voice

to those women
who were marching in the street,

to give a voice to these young people
who told me about <i>Passinho</i>,

who tell me that they dance
barefoot in the <i>favela</i>

to say that they still exist.

Then how I gave them
a voice in the artwork,

I was in tears
when they told me their stories

that despite me being solo,
I told them, I can't dance a solo,

that would be me not listening to you.

Which means that halfway through my work
when I go to open my message,

because I always have a message,

I need you to leave the audience,

then you come on stage
and do what you want,

it's not about excellence, perfection,

it's about the excellence of saying
to the people that you exist,

and that you may not be there
for much longer.

I would like you to come
speak out in my work,

and do what you want with it,
it belongs to you.

And this is how I speak.

This is how I give voice
because I build bridges with realities.

Then we talked 
to these young people again,

they had tears in their eyes,
they said to me : "Rhodnie,

you understood our reality,
you understood what we are going through."

As for me, I am happy because
I was able to show people that I exist,

but we are not applauding a work
because it's beautiful or not.

These are matters of life and death.

And in the end, it's also
what <i>BOW'T TRAIL</i> is about.

<i>BOW'T TRAIL</i> tells exactly that.

The manner how I trace these images,

is through gravity 
that resides in my body.

So when I dance <i>BOW'T TRAIL Retrospek</i>,

I would even challenge you to learn
an excerpt from <i>BOW'T TRAIL Rétrospek</i>.

You need to feel
the 140 testimonies in your body

all speaking at the same time,

then one gesture,

it's 140 voices at the same time.

That's the weight
of <i>BOW'T TRAIL Rétrospek</i>

That's why I love it so much.

So,

addressing inequity issues

means agreeing to put your body

in a burning oven.

Like that, yes.

We are far from aesthetics.

We don't take away the aesthetics.

But you know,

dancing goes beyond just saying,
I want to achieve that.

That you carry inside you
such a strong message

that it is absolutely necessary
that you pass it on to someone else.

That's what interests me in my works.

That's it, I'll stop there.

- That's super inspiring, thank you.
- Rhodnie, thank you.

Thank you so much.

One last question
to conclude the discussion,

what are you currently working on?

Any plans, things like that?

Yes, so right now,
this is really my beautiful baby.

So right now, Im finally updating

something I've been wanting
to develop for 10 years

which is a documentary 
choreographic laboratory

which means that RD Créations

having developed expertise today
in documentary choreography,

we are now launching two laboratories
at the same time,

it means that we are developing
our works in prototype form,

a bit like engineers
who do research and development.

We do prototyping of works

to see the full potential around the work

both at the partner, costumes, 
dance and lighting level.

So, we just entered
two creation prototypes

for our two subjects.

The first one is called SCÒ.

SCÒ addresses the issue of scoliosis.

I have scoliosis.

So, while we are talking about
resistance and inequity,

I had scoliosis and I almost had surgery.

But I kept dancing and I still do.

So, SCÒ addresses the issue

of all these psychological
and physiological twists

that young teenage girls
have to carry until adulthood.

And I say young girl because

it's mainly 90% if not more
of young girls who suffer from it.

And it's going to become
a digital installation

with performance
and musical performance.

Then in fact, another work
is also coming soon,

I'm starting right now
my research regarding KÒSA.

KÒSA in Creole means this body

and we address the issue of death
told from the children

and from specialists in astrophysics,
in theology and dermatology.

Wow!

Just to compare, but do you have
places where you present them

or it will be on the internet,
do you still know...?

In fact, the beauty of 
a documentary choreographic laboratory,

is we give ourselves the freedom 
not to know how it will turn out,

and that's the fun of it.

For example, SCÒ, I was convinced
it was going be a group work

with maybe four, five performers,

then we were going to have
scenographic objects on stage,

then the musicians we work with,

the Aukan group in Toronto,

we say OK,
it's going to be a work on stage.

And after 36 hours of creation
in the laboratory with a scenographer,

videographer, lighting coordinator,

the testimonies I collected
from Saint-Justine, chiropractors,

a lot of people.

And with the University of Montreal
as a partner too.

In the end, I realized it wasn't
a dance show on a regular stage,

that the message had to be channelled

in an audio, digital, projection
and performance installation,

from time to time,

which means that our new market
becomes museums.

So, RD Créations
has already set up an exhibition,

the Conversation exhibition,

but we are going to do
our second iteration

in digital installation,

then it will be the SCÒ project.

In fact, we are right on the dot
right now,

which means that the dance,

then the documentary choreography
takes us to something else.

And in holding this freedom,

if we had sealed it right away
with a dance diffuser,

we would be in a bad position to say
that in the end, it wasn't a dance show.

The dance show is coming 
into the performance

of the digital installation
which should be in a museum.

Whereas now, we are really capable
of having an even clearer vision,

a more measured proposal,

then an ability to rally partners

which will be all the more oriented
towards what we want to do.

Then for KÒSA,
I imagine it is my next symphony

as it is still a work
which is likely to be quite big

because of the three major subjects
that we are approaching.

And it's a piece scheduled for 2028, 2029.

So, we work on three years,

our company, our creations rarely drop,

the earliest is two and a half years,
two years and some of work,

but the documentary choreography
requires three years of work.

You really, really need
good documentation,

relevant archiving,

rallied partners,

a choreography where the signature,
is all the more refined.

Then let's not forget polyrhythm
for RD Créations and language,

documentary choreography
which is really important.

If we want body language
to be really strong,

musical language must also be written

at the same time than body language.

So this is another body
that we could talk about.

What is the link
body/music, body/instrument.

Yes,

the role of the musician as an accompanist

outside the classic

because there's a whole universe
in polyrhythm.

Super inspiring, really inspiring.

Thank you very much for your time

allowing us to discuss and chat like that,
it's really interesting.

I'm happy to hear that,
but I have a question for you.

Yes.

I would like to know today,
if you look at the dance world,

you have your dreams, but what are they?

I think that touching people

because I dream of being on stage,

but more than impacting myself,

I want to have an impact
on those around me.

So I think that all that
you explained to us today,

what you shared with us is inspiring

because it confirms that it is possible

to touch hundreds and thousands of people

and yes, that's it.

For me, it's a bit the same thing,

I think it's about living
especially through dance

and see how it can affect everyone,

then I would say people
are more open nowadays,

and the fact that we are open
to all communities,

and that everyone will have
the opportunity to dance,

so that's my dream.

It's that there are no more barriers.

I wish that for you collectively, yes.

Thank you!

Yes, to make the biggest dreams come true,

the wildest dreams
that you already have in mind

and especially those
that you don't know yet.

Yes, thank you.

Follow those young Canadians and join them
in their efforts to change the world