1
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Hi,my name is Joseph Scamardo and I am an 
assistant professor of philosophy

2
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and associate Director of the Institute in Public Affairs

3
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
at San Diego State University

4
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I specialized in philosophy of disability and
bioethics.

5
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I also identify as disabled, I have a spinal cord injury as well as a rare kind of dwarfism

6
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So you get two for the price of one with me

7
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, my first memory of discrimination was, well, it's hard to say.

8
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I have lots of memories as far as the experience of stigma

9
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or bigotry, mostly around my dwarfism

10
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and so, you know I have lots of early memories

11
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
around that with children staring and laughing and that sort of thing

12
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
from a very young age.

13
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Then as far as sort of a more systematic discrimination that sort of excluded me from something

14
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that I wanted to do,

15
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I had a pretty good experience as a child,

16
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
mostly because my parents really did a lot to make sure that I was included

17
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I can remember being in boy scouts and cub scouts when I was a kid

18
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and my father, really doing a lot with me

19
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to ensure that the inclusion of my disability--

20
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You know going on camping trips with me

21
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and sort of acting as a personal attendant

22
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
kinda thing to make sure that I was able

23
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to go and participate,

24
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and that sort of thing.

25
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so the first real experience

26
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of exclusion that I can remember

27
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
happened when it was time

28
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to go to high school.

29
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I had gone to the public schools in my town

30
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in my town up until the 8th grade

31
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and then when it came to high school,

32
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I was supposed to go to the same

33
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
private religiously oriented school

34
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that my older siblings went to

35
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and I took the entrance exam and

36
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
even got a small scholarship to go and everything,

37
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but it didn't have an elevator,

38
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and so I used a motorized scooter

39
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to get around, and it was

40
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
going to be impossible for me to

41
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
attend that school, because there was no

42
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
elevator. Now this was actually

43
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
after the passage of the ADA,

44
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but because it was

45
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a religiously oriented school,

46
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it was exempt from the requirements

47
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of the ADA.

48
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, I didn't have any leverage with

49
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that law.

50
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
To be able to get them

51
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to make accommodations for me

52
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so I ended up going to the public school

53
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in my town, which actually, personally,

54
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I was pretty happy about anyway,

55
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
because that's where all my friends

56
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
were going.

57
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But it still sort of clued me into the fact that

58
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not everything is accessible,

59
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
not everything is designed for me and that

60
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
this was going to be something

61
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I was gonna have to figure out throughout

62
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
my life.

63
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
As far as

64
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
remembering the ADA and its ()

65
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and that sort of thing,

66
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I was pretty young when it was passed,

67
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I was sometimes referred to as part of the

68
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
ADA generation, which means that

69
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I grew up with the ADA mostly,

70
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I was born in 1982,

71
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so I was 8 or 9 years old when the ADA

72
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
passed,

73
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and so I didn't really have

74
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
any kind of recollection of, "Aha!"

75
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That's--Of the moment that it passed.

76
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And the recall of where I was at the time

77
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or anything like this,

78
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
but I do remember my father explaining

79
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it to me, around the time of my

80
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
start of high school.

81
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
When I experienced this with that

82
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
private catholic school, and having that

83
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
sort of systematic discrimination experience

84
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
It explained that public schools,

85
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and other kinds of public places

86
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
were accessible to me because of the ADA

87
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and that there was this law that said

88
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that things had to be accessible to people

89
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
who use wheelchairs, and people who use

90
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
motorized scooters like I did at the time.

91
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, that was my first awareness

92
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of the ADA, as well as my first awareness

93
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
of discrimination, which is kind of cool,

94
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think?

95
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because it was neat to have

96
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that experience of,

97
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"Okay, well, this is something that's
going to be a challenge for you,

98
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and here's how you're protected,
and here's how you can do something

99
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about it." 
And so in a way, it was this sort of,

100
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
my awakening into advocacy as well.

101
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now, as far as the difference that the 
ADA has made in my life,

102
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or the life of others, 
I think that it's been, of course

103
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
an incredibly important law that has 
opened up all sorts of opportunities

104
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
for people, everything from public 
transportation, to be able to move around

105
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in your community, the homestead decision
is based on ADA, which says that people

106
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
need to be--when they need any kind of 
() from care,

107
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they need to be served in the least 
restrictive environment, meaning that

108
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you can't just institutionalize or
warehouse somebody because it's more

109
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
convenient for you, you need to make sure
that they're able to live in the community

110
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or somewhere that is going to be best 
for them.

111
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
What else do the ADA do?
Just the ability to get an education,

112
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the ability to get a job, all of these
things, for me and for others,

113
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
were sort of caused by the ADA and I can't
really imagine what it was like

114
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
prior to the ADA, honestly.

115
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I mean, I can imagine it I guess, but 
I'm sure glad that I didn't have to

116
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
experience it.

117
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The ADA makes a difference in a wide range
of personal experiences

118
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and also a wide range of 
disability politics issues.

119
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, my personal experience that I think 
most recently has been impacted by the ADA

120
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
has been my ability to live an 
independent life with my two kids.

121
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think prior to the ADA, it would've 
been much harder to do that.

122
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Raising kids means that I have to go into
lots of different public spaces and do

123
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
different things that I might not have
been 'required' to do, if you will,

124
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
professionally, or just sort of
in everyday life, if I didn't have them.

125
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So going to the zoo, or going to the
grocery store, for that last minute item

126
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or you know, just whatever it might be, 
I think that, you know--

127
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
opening up the daycare centers, and so on
and so forth.

128
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The ADA sort of opened all of that up to
me, as a wheelchair user

129
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and so, that's where it's made a big 
personal impact in my life recently.

130
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now, I think that the one thing that 
I can sort of speak to, professionally,

131
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
about the ADA and its impact or 
lack of impact is probably, two-fold:

132
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One, is the ways in which my privilege 
as a physically disabled--

133
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
there's a disability hierarchy of course,
and so physical disability

134
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is usually at the top of that hierarchy, 
with psychiatric disabilities

135
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and intellectual developmental 
disabilities,

136
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
sort of lower down on the hierarchy.

137
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, as a physically disabled, 
cisgender, heterosexual white guy,

138
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've benefited a lot more from the ADA 
than lots of other people that don't have

139
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
those kinds of privileges.

140
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think for instance about how the ADA 
is designed, really

141
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to promote what you'd think of 
as equality of opportunity,

142
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
meaning that everybody has an equal 
opportunity to compete within the economic

143
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
life of the United States, and so, 
it allows you to enter into the workforce,

144
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and enter into the educational system, 
and so on and so forth

145
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
then compete.

146
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But what it doesn't do is it doesn't
address any of the other advantages

147
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
or disadvantages that intersect with 
ableism. So that's sort of something

148
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that is I think, a real problem, with 
the ADA.

149
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm a well-educated person, I have a 
master's degree and a Ph.D.

150
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and that, I don't think would've been 
available to me as easily as it was

151
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
if I didn't have these other privileges 
that I do have,

152
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that the ADA doesn't do anything
to address, it just sort of treats

153
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
all disabled people as if they were 
the same, and as if the only thing

154
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they have to deal with is structural 
ableism, and that's just not true, right?

155
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I think another thing about ()
that the ADA doesn't address

156
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is economics, in that, I think that 
despite the ability to compete,

157
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a lot of disabled people still live in
extreme poverty, because of other

158
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
things that make it impossible for them 
to compete,

159
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
other than just their disability.

160
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, the real sad part to me about that
is you look at other systems

161
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that are designed to help disabled people 
get out of poverty,

162
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and even they don't recognize the way that
privilege operates in these contexts.

163
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So, for instance, 
the vocational rehab system.

164
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I've benefited greatly from the vocational 
rehab system so I don't want to just

165
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
sit here and talk smack on it, right?

166
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The vocational rehab system has helped me 
get a van that I could drive,

167
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
so I could get back and forth from

168
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
my place of employment, from school,
which was huge, right?

169
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
But the only reason why I had access
to that van was:

170
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
A. Because I could afford the van itself,
which not a lot of disabled people can do,

171
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
especially if they don't ()
and

172
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
B. Because the vocary head councilor
thought

173
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that I was worth the investment right?

174
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Someone who didn't have the advantages
that I had, as far as the kind of disability

175
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that I have, my family's resources and my 
skin color and all those things,

176
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it's very likely that the rehab councilor
would've said, "You can take the bus,"

177
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
right? "We're not going to invest all of
this money into helping

178
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
you learn how to drive."

179
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Because they wouldn't have believed that
they would get this return on their investment

180
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that the person would be able to get
a well paying job,

181
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and so on and so forth, 
and so, I think that that's also

182
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a big issue that the ADA doesn't address,
is this kind of intersectionality

183
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that gives some disabled people 
advantages within even the system

184
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that is designed to help them, and other
people, of course, disadvantages, which is

185
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
a real issue.

186
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now, as far as my area of expertise, 
Bioethics, there's definitely been some

187
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
ways in which the ADA has helped greatly,
and other ways

188
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
in which it hasn't really done much.

189
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
So I'll start with the positivity, right?
We'll start with the good news.

190
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
One way in which I think, I can point point
to in a very concrete way in which the ADA has helped,

191
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
is when it comes to healthcare rationing.

192
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
The issue of healthcare in the United 
States of course is a very hot button topic

193
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and it's hot because there is a perceived
lack of resources--There's more need

194
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
than there is supply for healthcare.

195
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, when we talk about expanding 
healthcare to a larger number of people,

196
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
without also expanding the resources that
are being devoted to healthcare,

197
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
then that's gonna be a real problem, 
because some people aren't going to get

198
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
as much as they need, right?

199
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
You're going to have to sort of budget it,
if you will.

200
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Or in the terms of bioethics, 
ration healthcare.

201
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
Now this proved to be an issue because

202
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
when it was done on smaller scale, 
for instance the state of Oregon,

203
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
after the passage of the ADA--
I'm not sure exactly on the timeline,

204
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
I'm not a historian--but the state of
Oregon expanded their publicly provided

205
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
healthcare to a larger number of people,
and as they did that, they needed to

206
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
make sure that they had a way of
prioritizing what was covered

207
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
and what was not covered.

208
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, as they did this,

209
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
it became a parent that a lot of 
disabled people

210
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
were being rationed out of 
the healthcare system.

211
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That a lot of things were not being 
covered for disabled folks

212
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
that should be.

213
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
And so, there was a series of lawsuits 
that were brought against

214
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
the state of Oregon, that basically
said that, "You couldn't discriminate

215
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
against disabled people and not 
provide them with healthcare,

216
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
based on their disability."

217
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
That you couldn't sort of say,

218
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
"Well, this person isn't going to get 
very much bang for their buck,

219
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
they're not gonna end up being healthy
anyway, 'cause they're still going

220
99:59:59,999 --> 99:59:59,999
to be disabled, so we're not going to give
them this treatment option."