I'm here with Sara van Oordt
from Christians for Israel.
Money from Christians for Israel
helps to fund illegal settlements.
This money may even buy weapons,
as we discovered together with Investico.
Right?
No.
-Yes.
Here we go.
We can help people get pistol licenses.
He went there once and they tied him up
and destroyed about 400 trees...
while he was watching.
Christian Zionism sees Jews
only as instrumental.
And there's something anti-Semitic in that.
If you transfer this amount,
my advice is to use a neutral description.
"Support for Judea and Samaria"
or something like that.
No, that isn't neutral.
Is that wine from the territories sold here?
-Yes.
Why?
-Because it's very good wine.
This is the land of Jamal Faris...
a Palestinian olive farmer
in Deir Istiya on the West Bank.
The land has been owned by his family
since the 1950s...
but in the early 1990s...
a few white trailers appear on the edge
of Jamal's land on Palestinian territory.
These are houses of Israeli settlers,
and they call their settlement Revava.
Behind me in Nijkerk here
is Christians for Israel's headquarters...
a Zionist Christian foundation.
In this broadcast, we'll explain the link
between Jamal's land and this building.
Jamal can't live and work normally
on the West Bank due to the Revava settlers.
The foundation in this Nijkerk building
is one of the facilitators for this.
Because we discovered with Investico
and the Nederlands Dagblad newspaper...
that Dutch Christian Zionist organizations
contribute financially...
to the expansion of illegal settlements
on the West Bank.
And this money can be used
to bypass European sanctions...
or purchase weapons for settlers.
So pay attention.
This story begins with Jamal,
a Palestinian olive farmer.
As we mentioned, Jamal has a problem.
My name is Jamal Faris.
I'm a Palestinian from the West Bank...
...from a small town called Deir Istiya.
I was a teacher.
And a farmer.
I have an olive tree field.
And we cannot take care of it right now.
But why can't Jamal take care
of his olive trees anymore?
Here's a brief history lesson.
After World War II, in 1948,
the state of Israel is declared.
Many Palestinians in this area...
are displaced and settle in Gaza
and on the West Bank...
the area between Israel
and the Jordan River.
The 1949 armistice created a border
between Israel and the Palestinian territories.
This border, known as the Green Line,
is still observed by the United Nations.
But during the Six-Day War in 1967,
Israel captured the West Bank.
Israel has occupied the area to this day.
The Palestinian Authority
has limited self-rule in Zones A and B...
as agreed in the Oslo Accords.
The vast majority, zone C,
is governed by Israel.
However, this doesn't mean
Israel can take the land.
All Israeli settlements in occupied areas
are illegal under international law.
In July 2024, the International
Court of Justice reaffirmed this.
It ruled that the settlements Israel built
in the West Bank should not exist...
and that Israel must withdraw its settlers
from Palestinian territories.
But Israeli settlers have been expanding
their authority for decades...
by building more settlements
on Palestinian land.
Increasingly, settlers do this with the help
of the Israeli army, using a lot of violence.
Like Revava, right next to
Jamal's olive grove.
This field was actually planted...
by my father in 1956 and
before the Israeli occupation in 1967.
In 1991 the settlement started
very small at the beginning...
and started expanding,
and now it's a big settlement.
It took all the land over there and
they have their wall at the border of my land.
We had a problem in the past twenty years
taking care of that land...
during my father's time.
He went there once and they tied him up
and they destroyed about 400 trees...
while he was watching...
and they let the sewage come through
our land and killed about 200 trees.
So now we don't have too much left,
but we still have problems getting there...
to harvest our trees.
I can't go by myself
because I might get beaten or shot.
Shortly after the ceasefire in Gaza
last January...
the Israeli army launched
a wide-scale offensive in the West Bank.
Palestinians are driven away,
attacked, and murdered.
Settler violence has also increased recently.
Over a hundred incidents have been
recorded since early last year.
This is my land.
I want to take care of it.
I don't want to give it up.
I want to...
fix it...
or I will lose it.
So with Investico and Nederlands Dagblad
we investigated...
the Dutch Christian Zionist organisations
contributing financially...
to making Jamal's life a misery,
among other things.
I'm Janneke Stegeman.
I'm a theologian
with a PhD on the Hebrew Bible...
and the relationship between identity
and conflict in Hebrew texts...
such as the use of the Hebrew Bible
in today's conflicts in Israel and Palestine.
And I teach at VU University.
-I'm Ari Dubnov, a historian.
I was, born and raised
and educated in Israel.
I teach Israel studies and Middle Eastern
studies at George Washington University.
Zionism is a movement which states
that Jews...
belong in Israel,
seen as their historic homeland.
Zionism started as Christian Zionism,
specifically among Protestants in Europe.
This was mainly in the Dutch Republic
and also in England.
Even before the Zionist movement...
before Herzl and people
calling themselves Zionists...
there were already Christian Zionists,
so to speak, saying:
"We envision the return of the Jews
to the Holy Land...
and then it will bring
the second coming of Christ."
Christians see Jesus as the Messiah...
who ascended to Heaven and
will return on Judgment Day.
This second coming of Christ
involves various convictions.
Including the return of all Jews
to the Holy Land...
and converting to Christianity.
These texts are largely set
in Biblical Judea and Samaria...
with Biblical places like East Jerusalem
and Bethlehem.
So in the Biblical idea that Jews
must return to the Holy Land...
this area is a vital part of this land.
Shortly, we'll call a controversial Israeli settler
in the West Bank.
We'll discuss donating money...
as Dutch donations play a significant part
in this story. Attention.
Violating human rights and
destroying Palestinian lives...
has a very simple practical side:
it requires money.
We'll show you how this money flows
and the crucial role of the Netherlands.
How important are the Dutch
for the Christian Friends of Israel?
Wonderful people, just wonderful.
We love them deeply and the relationship
is so strong. Friendship.
You heard Sondra Baras speaking
to our colleagues from Investico...
when they visited the West Bank
last January.
Baras is the founder and
former director of the CFO-IC...
the Christian Friends of Israeli Communities.
This CFO-IC is an international
Christian Zionist organization...
that coordinates projects
in the settlements on the West Bank.
The money CFO-IC receives
from donors around the world...
flows through Baras
to these settlements on the West Bank.
These funds are used for community centers
and clinics...
but also on drones and
bulletproof vests for settlers.
Israel receives funds
from around the world...
but in financial aid to the settler movement,
the Netherlands plays a key part.
While the US is probably the primary
financial contributor, says Baras...
the relationship with the Netherlands
is also very close.
Our partnership with Holland is vital.
We work closely with Christians for Israel.
Christians for Israel, or CFI,
has a turnover of 13 million euros.
It's the largest Christian Zionist foundation
in the Netherlands...
and supports projects on the West Bank,
according to research by Investico.
CFI, based in Nijkerk,
was founded in the 1980s...
and mainly finds support within
the orthodox-Protestant churches.
CFI's mission is...
making Christians aware of the Jewish
people's role in God's world plan.
The foundation doesn't see the West Bank
as occupied territory...
but as the heart of Biblical Israel
assigned to the Jewish people.
CFI therefore does not use the term
West Bank, but Judea and Samaria.
CFI's influence extends to the highest circles
in American politics.
Listen to Leon Meijer...
former board member of the Christian Union
Party and current CFI international chair.
Mr. Meijer, you were at Mar-a-Lago
not too long ago. Why were you there?
There was a Jerusalem Prayer Breakfast,
a gathering for Jerusalem's peace.
And the organization
had discussed this with Trump.
"Can we hold this prayer meeting
at your estate?"
He replied, "Jerusalem is close to my heart.
I've moved the American embassy there...
so I invite you to have the prayer meeting
on the estate."
A remarkable choice, I think.
-Yes.
CFI has its own newspaper, talk show,
and retail company...
called Israel Products Center,
offering goods from the...
as they call it, "Promised Land",
including the occupied territories.
There's also a business club
with over 300 entrepreneurs.
CFI also organizes trips to Israel
for volunteers and...
in line with the orthodox-Protestant
Zionist body of thought...
helps Jewish people
from around the world with "aliyah":
The return to the promised land.
They're going to build up a new life in Israel.
It makes me think of Isaiah 43,
where the Lord says:
"Bring my sons and bring my daughters home
from far away."
These young Jewish children
between 13 and 17 years...
are the young new sons and daughters that
we may bring back to the land of Israel.
You could say...
that one of the problems
with Christian Zionism...
is that they see Jews
only instrumentally.
And I think there's
something anti-Semitic in that.
So it's not interest in Jews
as Jews see themselves...
but only in Jews
as they fit into the Christian story.
It's a problematic vision
as Jews are just seen as means to an end.
They are actually the small chess pieces.
They're the soldiers you sacrifice
on your way to a bigger vision.
With all those donations, CFI realizes
projects in what they call Judea and Samaria.
In other words, on Palestinian territory.
And this is in conflict with Dutch policy.
The Dutch government
supports a two-state solution...
viewing Israeli settlements
in occupied Palestinian territories...
as illegal and peace-threatening.
But in CFI's monthly newspaper,
another reality seems to be presented.
For there, we read this:
In December 2024, CFI contributed to
the construction of a retirement home...
for stationed Israeli soldiers.
In 2022, to a scouting club in East Talpiot...
and in that same year, the Israel
Products Center in the Netherlands...
donated their store profits
to a winemaker in Kiryat Arba...
a settlement near Hebron.
Jewish people brought to Israel by
the First Home in the Homeland program...
are also being settled
by CFI on the West Bank...
as we read in blogs
on the Christians for Israel website...
which is CFI's international branch.
Some CFI funds
bound for the West Bank...
go to the Christian Friends of Israeli
Communities we mentioned before.
And this brings us back to Jamal.
For, in 2023, CFOIC director Sondra Baras
thanks CFI Holland...
for a major contribution to the security
system of a new residential area in Revava.
The existence of Reviva and its expansion
has direct consequences...
for the Palestinians who own and cultivate
the adjoining land, including Jamal.
Part of his land next to
the illegal settlement of Revava's wall...
is too dangerous for him to enter.
Even reaching his own land
has been made impossible for him.
I used to go from this town to my field
straightforward in the car...
but when they built the settlement, it's
an obstacle between my town and my field.
It's in the middle, actually.
We have to go through it and now we're not
allowed to go through the settlement.
I can't get close to it.
Please go up.
It's not by distance 40 meters up.
What if you just keep two soldiers
to protect us here and just finish it?
What's the deal? Why?
It's no big issue.
We're peaceful people,
just here to pick olives...
and we have trouble
even using roads.
So now we have to make a big circle
all the way to the west...
taking bad roads, not active streets.
It's just roads they use for animals.
And it takes two hours for me
to get to my field.
If it was free like before
I could drive my car...
and just within a few minutes,
if I have that big field...
we could be making good money out of it
from that oil.
But now we lost that chance.
Those 800 trees that we've had...
they could make maybe
three, four tons of oil...
and that was ten, fifteen,
twenty thousand dollars.
Now we don't have that chance.
How can we live without money?
Attention. We read something else
in the Christians for Israel newspaper.
After October 7th, 2023, Christians for Israel
creates an emergency fund.
Part of the donations collected by CFI
through this fund goes to Or Ami...
a foundation set up by settler activist and
lawyer Nati Rom. Remember that name.
Nati Rom regularly visits the Netherlands
at the invitation of CFI...
and even set up a foundation here:
The Israel Heartland Foundation.
This is Nati Rom. Attention.
Shalom friends from Jabalia.
Shabbat shalom to our friends worldwide.
With God's help, we'll win.
We will do it together with the rabbi
over there.
We do whatever we can
to wreak redemption here in Jabalia.
As written in here: Shabbat shalom
from the heartland of Israel.
Rom supports demonstrators who
attacked aid convoys at the Gaza border...
and defends IDF soldiers standing trial for
systematic rape of Palestinian prisoners.
His third specialty is applying for
and defending weapon permits.
When not aiding settlers,
he serves as an Israeli army reservist.
Rom is seen in videos
with night vision drones...
a new watchtower for an army base
on the West Bank...
and a group of heavily armed men
he seems to be training.
For drones and watchtower purchases,
Dutch donors are thanked on the blog.
But where Rom got the weapons from,
is unclear.
Arjen Domburg, chairman
of the Israel Heartland Foundation...
and Nati Rom's right-hand man
in the Netherlands...
doesn't seem to know
where all donations go.
Days after the shooting men video,
Domburg writes this.
"Equipment has been bought
for the villages' security.
What, where and how isn't exactly clear,
but a lot of equipment has been bought."
Of course we had many questions,
but Rom won't answer Investico.
So, we decided together with our colleagues
from Investico to take a different approach.
We created the character Albert Dijkstra,
played by Allard from Investico.
Dijkstra, from Drachtsercompagnie,
has inherited money from his mother...
and wants to donate 15,000 to 20,000 euros
to Rom's Dutch foundation.
We tell this story to the Israel Heartland
Foundation chairman, Arjen Domburg.
As Rom's Dutch right-hand man...
...he can tell us more about the
exact destination of the Dutch money.
And we might also learn more...
about Christians for Israel's
financial flows.
The conversation with Domburg
starts like this.
Good morning, this is Albert Dijkstra.
Good morning.
-Hi. Thanks for calling.
I can imagine it's difficult
for Mr. Rom over there and also for you...
to get funding for the "heavier" stuff.
So as far as I am concerned...
if it's about equipment or weapons...
...I'm fine with all of it.
I'll help if needed.
No, we don't actually do
those kinds of things.
I mean, weapons aren't just sold
on the nearest street corner in Israel.
Another thing.
You mentioned those newsletters...
with a summary of what you've been doing
over the past few months, the past year.
Are they on your website?
No, because sometimes
the newsletters contain stuff...
we'd rather not publish.
Right, I see.
Domburg isn't showing all his cards yet,
but we also ask him:
"Our donation will be substantial.
Can we talk to Nati Rom himself?"
It works.
I think it's best if I contact Nati...
to discuss this matter.
And then I'll send you an email.
Is that a good idea?
Yes, that is a good idea.
This is where it gets interesting.
Domburg puts us in contact with Nati Rom.
Nati Rom is a key figure in a network
of controversial West Bank settlers.
His Or Ami foundation collaborates with
the Dutch Israel Heartland Foundation...
but also receives money from
Christians for Israel's emergency fund.
We agree to call him two days later.
Hi. Good afternoon.
-Good afternoon.
First, Rom tells us that he uses
food vouchers for sanctioned settlers...
for other purposes too.
Between you and me,
we don't know each other yet...
but this is the reason I use the food cards,
because it's not only food...
it's the card that they can use
in one hundred main stores in Israel.
They can also buy a tool, working tool.
There's a lot of options.
Okay, so they can use the card
how they want...
even if they have trouble with the
what's it called the sanctions or...
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, yes.
If you work with any of the people that were
attacked by the EU or the US, I would...
I am. I represent them in court and also we
are supporting them in their places for sure.
Then it's on to our donation.
How would Rom like to receive that money?
Through the Israel Heartland Foundation
or is cash preferred?
Cash is always the best.
For example...
...there's people
who are stuck with the sanction.
For them, cash is the best.
So we do for them the food card.
But also the foundation is okay.
Yes, we have our ways.
Okay, so cash is the best.
But what is Nati Rom actually going to do
with our cash? Here's the answer.
We can help people
get licenses for pistols.
We can also subsidize the price.
To subsidize for people who want to buy,
to subsidize the price, this can be.
How much will it cost to subsidize also
a pistol or a firearm? Does that, is that...?
It depends on us.
Let's say a firearm here will cost
something like 3000 or 4000. It depends.
And so it depends on us also
how much...
I think you don't need to
subsidize everything.
Just half or three quarters
or something like that.
Perfect.
And then if I send the money...
if I do it via Heartland here...
that will get to you...?
Yeah.
-Okay.
Arjen is an amazing person...
with giving not only his time,
but everything for this. It's amazing.
Yes.
Right. With the money we donate to him...
Nati Rom can finance weapons
for settlers.
And although Arjen Domburg
previously denied this...
Rom says this can be done through Israel
Heartland Foundation in the Netherlands.
Then Nati Rom suddenly starts talking
about Roger van Oordt...
the former director of Christians for Israel.
Roger van Oordt
is a very good friend of mine.
He came to my place like twenty times.
We're very connected,
I love him very much.
He's a great person,
but for years...
his organization rather give millions
to projects like...
building the windmill in Jerusalem
and flowers...
and they didn't want to be connected
because they were afraid.
And when he was helping me
it was in a small amount and secretly.
This is one of the things I'm saying.
From time to time he used to help us...
but secretly.
He has his way how to do it.
But for what I do, for what I want,
I don't do flowers.
Okay, Nati Rom doesn't do flowers.
And CFI found donating as a foundation
difficult...
but luckily the director of CFI himself
came by with cash.
But why is that such a smart idea?
If I could help you
do most of it off the books...
you can spend it more easily
on subsidising pistols and stuff...
because otherwise
that would be difficult, or what?
It's always easier in the other way.
Yeah, okay.
-God bless you. Thank you so much.
Good luck, please stay safe, okay?
Oh, my God.
Funding pistols is possible.
How about
calling Arjen Domburg now?
So in summary, Nati Rom wants to take our
money and can buy weapons with it too.
He prefers to get money off the books,
like Roger van Oordt did it...
but the Heartland Foundation works as well.
We decide to call chairman Arjen Domburg
again with this good news.
Is he still on board
with this info in his pocket?
Arjen Domburg speaking.
Hi, good afternoon.
-Good afternoon.
Hi. I just called Nati.
-Oh, nice.
It was really a great conversation.
I'm really impressed.
Nati and I decided together
it would be best...
...if the money could be spent on cameras
for those families or communities.
He also talked about
firearm and quad subsidies.
Nati said the easiest way is to just transfer it
to the Heartland Foundation.
We could do it early next week.
So you can forward it right away and
ensure it goes to those three things?
I'll send the whole amount all at once.
I'll forward it to Nati's foundation.
Then he can access it directly.
If you transfer this sum, my advice
would be to use a neutral description.
Like "support for Judea and Samaria"
or something.
I wouldn't mention that.
-No?
No, that's not neutral.
I would just say "support Nati Rom"
or "N. Rom" or "support..."
Or maybe just in Dutch,
to let sleeping dogs lie.
Last time you mentioned 15,000 to 20,000
euros. I wouldn't take that out in cash...
and get on a plane.
Right. What kind of expenses
are best in cash?
The kind of things we just talked about.
Those are the...
How can I put it?
The more difficult cases
where no one wants to leave any traces.
The roads, the weapons,
that kind of thing.
I think so.
Christians of Israel,
with the Van Oord family...
they have much more cash available
because of their collection money.
Yes, I see.
Like Nati... I remember a few years ago.
I think was the first time I met him.
He gave three talks for Christians from Israel.
There were three collections,
and in one church, 500 people attended.
Then the cash adds up quickly.
And then you get to take the stationery.
You know we're
a Public Benefit Organization?
So tax-wise that's also interesting.
So what can we conclude from this?
1: Nati Rom can help settlers
in illegal settlements to get weapons...
and ensure they're untraceable.
This can be done with Dutch money.
2: Donations from the Heartland Foundation...
are sometimes brought to Israel in cash
for "difficult" purchases.
3: Roger van Oordt, a member
of the CFI family for 45 years...
is good friends with Nati Rom...
and has occasionally made secret and
off-the-books donations when visiting Rom.
4: CFI held multiple collections at gatherings
where Nati Rom spoke in the Netherlands...
and gave him the cash.
5: With the food cards
for which Nati Rom collected money...
sanctioned settlers could not only buy food
but also purchase other items.
In this way, EU sanctions on those settlers
could be bypassed.
Ivo Amar, a sanction law specialist,
says this:
Economic resources means
essentially everything that has value.
It can be a food voucher or a gift card,
even a car.
Basically anything movable, immovable,
even intangible...
that represents any value,
so even a service...
...may not be provided
to such a settler.
That would be a criminal offense.
I'm also a Christian...
so let's say it's a Christian value
to treat others as you wish to be treated.
I think it's harsh that Palestinians
are totally absent from this story.
While all our eyes are set on Gaza
for obvious reasons...
on the other hand, it allows
the settlers in the West Bank...
what they call Judea and Samaria...
to do what is practically an ethnic cleansing
that no one is paying attention to.
So the idea is that God
promised the land to the Jews...
and the Palestinians,
as original inhabitants...
have to go and live in another
Arab country.
It shows that Christian Zionism
is always connected with colonialism.
They're building up more houses,
and somebody is helping them, I guess...
sending them money to expand.
I wish these settlements
will be dismantled and leave.
Because as long as they are there,
they will keep bothering us...
and they will keep expanding.
They should stop, because we are
humans too. We are natives here.
You are encouraging this town,
this settlement, to expand...
and take our land. It's our land
for thousands of years, that field.
<i>Dutch Faces Behind Settlement</i>
"This is Settlers' Language."
We're headed to Christians for Israel,
in this building,
Obviously, we have some questions.
Before we get there,
we first want to show you...
who's behind Christians for Israel
and the route to this discussion.
Christians for Israel
is run by the Van Oordt family.
Frank van Oordt,
son of founder Karel van Oordt...
has led the foundation since 2020.
Frank succeeded his brother Roger
van Oordt, whom you heard of earlier.
Roger led Christians for Israel
for nearly 30 years.
He now has a new position...
as honorary consul of the State of Israel
in the Netherlands.
This means he assists Dutch
nationals abroad...
and looks after Dutch trade interests
in Israel.
According to Nati Rom, Roger allegedly
smuggled cash to the West Bank.
Then there's Sara van Oordt,
married to the founder's grandson.
She's CFI's head of media and
communication and hosts their talk show.
It's 2025 and Israel has been at war
for 458 days now.
In the 2023 elections, she was a candidate
for the Christian Union Party.
We first call Frank, the foundation's
director, to discuss our findings.
You're saying quite something there.
But what you're saying isn't true at all.
-What isn't true?
You're saying we finance
illegal settlements.
You're saying we finance those.
That's not true at all.
I think you should call
our spokesperson.
So who should I call?
-Sara van Oort.
Frank directs us to Sara and we call her.
She needs some time but calls back later.
She wants to come and talk.
Okay, great. Let's arrange that.
Tuesday at 10 o'clock.
Hi. Hello.
-Welcome.
Tim. Nice to meet you.
-Sara.
Welcome to the center.
-Thank you.
Can we put the camera on the shoulder?
-Sure.
We'd like to discuss some things you fund.
Starting with Revava. In 2022, you supported
the construction of a new neighborhood.
How much did you contribute?
We sponsored twelve houses there.
Temporary homes that are also movable.
They were 25,000 euros each.
Why did you choose to donate
specifically to this project?
We've supported many projects for years.
It was a project
at the start of the Ukraine crisis...
when Ukrainian refugees flooded
into the Netherlands as well as Israel.
In Israel, they were housed in places
including Revava.
And why was the choice made to locate it
in that neighborhood?
The municipality chose that. It's within
municipal boundaries, so they decide.
They had space for twelve little houses.
So it's not a whole neighborhood,
just twelve temporary homes.
They were built under Israeli law...
partly on land from a Palestinian
from the nearby village of Deir Istiya...
and partly on land managed by Israel
without permission given.
Nearby buildings are under demolition order
by the Israeli government.
Specifically for this neigborhood?
-Yes.
You didn't know this?
-I wasn't aware of it.
Is that checked
before you finance a neighborhood?
We always consult the local municipality
for suitable locations.
And they said, "This area is in Zone C
under the Oslo Accords."
It's under Israeli administration,
and they chose this area.
Israeli administration doesn't mean
it's Israeli land. You know that.
That's disputed.
You're the ones disputing it.
Legally, it's true.
Can you repeat the question?
-It wasn't a question. I provided information.
You say it's disputed,
but you're disputing it.
It's under Israeli military law,
but Israel can't just take the land.
That's not entirely true.
The Oslo Accords were signed in the 1990s.
Zones A, B, and C were agreed upon.
C is under Israeli administration.
Military administration?
Yes, but also civilian administration,
because Israelis live there.
A is under Palestinian control.
B is under shared control.
There, military law applies, but not in C.
The idea about the C area is that
it's controlled fully by Israel...
in terms of its police and military...
not in terms of the way
you run the land there.
The Israeli parliament never passed a law
saying area C is Israeli territory.
So that's part of what's going on here.
As we've seen now...
contributing to the expansion of Israeli
settlements is a violation of international law.
According to the Oslo Accords,
Israel has the right...
They're a basis for a final agreement.
Which hasn't been reached.
-Unfortunately, not yet.
Which means that the West Bank...
-Is disputed.
Can be governed by the Israelis...
but it doesn't mean Palestinian land
must be given up.
Conflicts happen and
they also go to court.
If it turns out that the land is
in fact owned by Palestinians...
the court will rule that
those settlements must be cleared.
It has happened before.
It will happen again.
I've checked whether there is
a claim on Revava.
There is, but it has never been
to court.
There are many conflicts in the West Bank
in the C area where Israel is in control...
where Palestinians say the land is ours.
So they go to court, and yes,
lawsuits do drag on.
Sometimes the ruling is in favor of Israel,
sometimes of Palestinians.
Just to be clear, the homes in question
in Revava are illegal under Israeli law.
This is documented...
and these buildings received a demolition
order from the Israeli authorities in 2022.
That's the issue here.
You still believe it's morally justified
to support this.
It's under Israeli administration.
Israel is a democratic state of law
and land conflicts are decided in court.
And if the land is not Israel's but belongs
to Palestinians, we'll relocate those homes.
Is that a deal?
-We simply adhere to the law.
Revava's existence and expansion directly
impacts Palestinians with land next to it.
One is Jamal Faris, a Palestinian
olive farmer from Deir Istiya.
His land borders directly on the wall
of the illegal settlement of Revava.
It's too dangerous for him to access.
He can hardly reach his own land.
We have an audio clip.
He went there once and they tied him up
and destroyed about 400 trees...
while he was watching.
So now we don't have too much left,
but we still have problems getting there...
to harvest our trees.
I can't go by myself
because I might get beaten or shot.
That's the situation for him
and other Palestinians in the area.
Does this affect you?
-It affects me a lot.
Will it impact funds to Revava
from Christians for Israel?
It affects me greatly, the suffering.
I want to emphasize that.
If it turns out our sponsored houses
shouldn't be there...
we'll relocate them,
but we'll investigate this thoroughly.
We owe responsibility to our donors. I must
explain our financial spending to them.
So you promise
to thoroughly investigate this?
And if according to international law
it's wrong to displace these Palestinians...
your foundation will pull out?
-Of course.
Let's talk about Nati Rom.
-I know him.
Nati Rom gave three talks in the Netherlands
in June 2022.
Collections were made
when Nati Rom spoke here...
at your invitation.
You gave him the cash money.
Why did that money go to Nati Rom?
-I don't recall. When was this?
2022.
-I don't remember exactly.
I'd have to check. But we did sponsor him
immediately after October 7th.
So money went to Or Ami
from your emergency fund?
But in 2022, we didn't yet
have an emergency fund.
That was in 2023, but in 2022
you gave the collection money to Rom.
It's all recorded. We don't just
hand over an envelope.
Nothing off the books?
-Of course not.
Let's start with that cash money in '22 that
went to Nati Rom. Want was that meant for?
I'd have to check.
Why donate to Or Ami, to his foundation,
from the emergency fund?
We donate to many organizations.
-Yes.
We list about 20 on our website, I think.
-What are the conditions?
Conditions for...?
-For receiving money from you.
The conditions are...
After October 7th, the Hamas massacre,
we saw Israel in need.
We set up an emergency fund
to support people with food parcels...
emergency kits and also security.
We sponsored a number of shelters
for people seeking refuge in bunkers.
The condition is
that it must fit our policy.
We want to give humanitarian aid...
and support people, both Jews and
Palestinians, with food aid, for instance.
Are there limits you won't cross?
Things your foundation shouldn't do?
There are many things
a foundation shouldn't do.
We're against violence,
so we don't support violence.
Would you indirectly fund weapons?
-Neither directly nor indirectly. No way.
Then I'd like to play you something.
We can help people
get licenses for pistols.
We can also subsidize the price.
To subsidize for people who want to buy,
to subsidize the price, this can be.
How much would it cost to subsidize
also a pistol or a firearm?
It depends on us.
Let's say a firearm here will cost
something like 3000 or 4000. It depends.
Do you get what's being said?
That you could subsidize a weapon
or something, right?
With donated money.
-But not from Christians for Israel.
That is the question.
-That is the answer.
Are you sure?
I'm 100% sure.
-How do you know?
It goes against our policy.
Donations are earmarked for specific goals.
We're a serious
Public Benefit Organisation.
We adhere to rules, that's our policy.
What would we gain by doing this?
Let's put this in moral terms.
Would you continue work with Nati Rom
and his foundation...
knowing he also finances weapons
with donations?
That's a hard question.
-Why?
You're confronting me with this now.
I asked to get your questions up front.
I didn't get them,
so we couldn't confer.
Christians for Israel doesn't support
weapons. I want to emphasize this again.
You just hope.
-I'm sure of it. It's not hope.
Our books are in order.
We know what we're donating to.
So let's look at the books.
-Yes.
We had another talk with Nati Rom and
Arjen Domburg. You know him, I think.
I know his name, not the person.
-From the Heartland Foundation.
This was a conversation about
Roger van Oordt, well-known to you.
Roger van Oordt
is a very good friend of mine.
He came to my place like twenty times.
You know this, right?
-I do.
He brings groups to us
to be inspired, you know.
And he for years and years...
We're very connected and I love him
personally very much.
He's a great person,
but for years...
his organization rather gives millions
to projects like...
building the windmill in Jerusalem
and flowers...
and they didn't want to be connected
because they were afraid.
And when he was helping me,
it was in a small amount and secretly.
So from time to time
he used to help us...
but secretly.
He has his way how to do it.
But for what I do, for what I want,
I don't do flowers.
Nati Rom is talking about off-the-books
money which Roger van Oordt...
Secretly, he said.
I don't recognize that.
He talked about off-the-books money...
and said that Roger van Oort provided him
with cash, and possibly implies there...
as you heard,
"I don't do flowers"...
implying off-the-books actions
like possibly financing weapons.
I stick to my story. We don't finance
weapons on the books...
and we don't do anything off the books.
-Nati Rom says you do.
Those are his words.
We don't do things off the books.
I can't check it...
-You'll have to take my word for it.
Will you ask Roger van Oordt?
-No, I'll look into this, of course.
Are you shocked?
We're being presented with things
I'm not aware of.
As Christians for Israel,
we're accountable for our donations.
I stand by that, having insight
into the projects we support.
We do not support violence. Period.
You also funded 2,000 food vouchers
in 2023.
Let's discuss food vouchers.
We'll go back to Nati Rom.
Between you and me,
we don't know each other yet...
but this is the reason I use the food cards,
because it's not only food...
it's a card that they can use
in one hundred main stores in Israel.
They can also buy a tool, working tool.
One project that might be interesting
for you...
is buying a small car, an ATV,
I can show you a picture.
It's for guarding at night
and in the day they're working with it.
There's a lot of options.
-Okay. So the card is...
They can use it how they want,
even if they have trouble with the...
what's it called, the sanctions or...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Exactly, yes.
What Nati Rom tells us
is that the food vouchers here...
can help bypass sanctions against settlers
sanctioned by bodies like the EU.
This isn't about gifts
from Christians for Israel.
No, but my question is:
When you hear this,
Nati Rom funding weapons...
accepting cash from Roger van Oordt
and wanting to bypass sanctions...
our expert says this was about
bypassing sanctions...
is this enough to stop working
with the foundation?
We're against any form of violence.
-Yes, you said that.
And we will talk to Nati Rom.
We know...
You'll talk to Nati Rom, but...
-Definitely.
We've cooperated with him
for many years.
If it turns out that donations from
Christians for Israel are misused by him...
we'll ask questions and we'll stop
if he continues to do so.
Why do you call this area Judea and Samaria
instead of the West Bank?
It's the name used in Israel
for the area.
Yes, but it's the West Bank.
-It's just a name, right?
It's like North and South Holland
together making up Holland.
That's what it's called.
In Israel, it's Judea and Samaria.
A biblical term.
-Biblical, but used in Israel.
This is the way the religious settlers
refer to the land in its biblical terms.
It's not the way
the great majority of Israelis...
nor the legal system,
nor the documents refer to it.
The Israelis up to recently
would call it "Hagda Ma'aravi"...
which is literally the West Bank.
You contribute directly to
Nati Rom's foundation...
which is clearly committed to maintaining
and expanding settlements.
You have contributed directly to
the expansion of the settlement in Revava.
And you work with Sondra Baras'
Christian Friends of Israeli Communities.
She has said, I believe on British tv,
after Trump came to power...
that Palestinians should accept the fact
that they will never have sovereignty.
In a draconian regime,
the first thing you're saying is...
teaching people
how to speak a new language.
So this is...
-This is settler lingo.
This is settler language...
as if ignoring the United Nations and
all the resolutions that passed since 1967.
In that sense you say,
"we'll accept whatever happens."
But in the meantime,
you commit financially and materially...
to organizations whose goal is to make
the West Bank as Jewish as possible.
I'm not concerned with the opinions
of those you mentioned.
But you do support them financially.
-We also back those against Netanyahu.
We know what we're supporting.
Donations go to specific projects.
It's about supporting an ideology...
-We don't support any ideology.
This is strange. If I tie Allard's laces
and then slap you...
I can't say, "I slapped you,
but I also tied his laces, so it's okay."
You're supporting foundations that contribute
to the colonisation of territories.
We just support people.
-You're not just supporting people.
Yes, we do.
We're discussing opinions.
You have your opinion
about the territory's future.
That's irrelevant, as I don't oversee
a donating foundation.
You donate a lot of Dutch money.
-It's not that much for those territories.
Such extreme remarks aren't a problem?
-You say extreme, but she may have a point.
Currently it might be better
if Israel controls the area...
rather than having a Palestinian authority
or even Hamas in control.
Purely in pragmatic terms.
Just now, the Palestinian population suffers
from a poorly organized leadership...
so maybe it's more of a pragmatic approach
than an ideological approach.
I must go against this,
for there's much more going on than...
It complicates when Palestinians
want their land...
but when it's about Palestinian leadership,
it's straightforward.
You know that's very complex too.
-Extremely complex.
What would it take for Christians for Israel
to stop supporting or donating?
When would we pull out?
When violence is used.
Can you define that?
Well, violence. Weapons maybe?
We don't do that. It's against our policy.
We want no part in that.
Stealing land?
-Nor in that.
Colonising?
-We abide by the law.
What can we agree upon
after this conversation?
You'll look into Revava.
We've just told you the story.
If it's illegal and hampers people
like Jamal...
...you'll end your support,
the homes must go.
They'll have to be moved.
-Where?
I don't know yet.
Then there's Nati Rom.
You'll wash our hands of him.
Look, we'll talk with Nati Rom.
You've confronted me today with
a telephone conversation I was unaware of.
We'll talk to Nati Rom and
see what the consequences will be.
So spreading an ideology would not be
enough for you to pull out?
This is about politics, not ideology.
That's okay.
This is a free country, and so is Israel.
Different opinions are allowed.
Everything you do
has been allowed so far.
How does the foundation see it?
You speak for it, right?
We don't support people
based on their political views.
We just support all people.
But that's not what you guys do, right?
Never mind.
I'm also hitting a wall, I think.
Why use organizations like CFOIC
or Nati Rom's...
or the Itamar foundation,
where we know that people...
Itamar is notorious
for its violent settlers.
Nati Rom makes strong public statements
about their West Bank vision.
Ms. Baras tells the BBC
she wants sovereignty to go to Israel.
And you support that financially.
-We support the people financially.
I can't sugarcoat it.
All we do,
is support activities in Israel.
We support people who need it.
-Who say these things.
In Israel, there are many different
opinions on the future of the conflict.
You choose to support a certain opinion.
-Our support is independent of that.
But you are supporting it.
It amounts to the same thing.
You support the people
who hold these views...
even if you say you don't support them
because of those views.
That's what we do, indeed.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Because in Israel there are many opinions
about the future of the West Bank.
They believe it would be best
if Israel were in charge.
So, that's the conclusion.
It doesn't matter if she says that,
she can still expect money from CvI.
So, that's cleared now.
We've come to the point.
-Great.
Right? We have everything we needed.
We wanted to hear your reaction.
Have a good day.
-Thank you.
Is the wine from the occupied territories
sold here too? Why is that?
Is this part of the interview?
-Sure.
Because it's very tasty wine.
-Even if it's from occupied territory.
It's under dispute.
-It's occupied.
It's under dispute.
-Occupied.
There's a dispute, to be clear.
-Yes, but it's clearly occupied.
This is George Orwell 101.
If you want a draconian regime...
the first thing you do, is teach people
how to speak a new language.
It's the settler lingo,
the settler language.
As if ignoring the United Nations and all
the resolutions that passed since 1967.
So, Israel occupied these territories,
there are territories that are occupied.
Israel recognizes that this is occupied
territory in terms of international law.
It's not illegal to occupy a territory.
That's the key thing.
It's problematic, it should be temporary,
but it's not illegal to occupy land.
What is illegal, is to then send settlers
into the occupied territories and so on.
This is where we're going into legal...
One of the tactics of settlers to say
there's nothing problematic about it...
is to blur the fact
that this is occupied land.
So, this is again a type of debate
about terminology...
that appeared immediately after 1967,
disappeared and now reappears again...
in which the hawkish Israeli right
is saying: Don't call it occupied territory.
They'll call it disputed territory.
That's what the international community
says. It's simply in Area C...
which is under Israeli control
according to the Oslo Accords.
The wine's from that area.
-Which is occupied.
It's clearly labeled.
We have a booklet on the wine's origin.
Occupied territory.
-Disputed.
Does it taste well?
-It's delicious. Thank you.
She was consistent in what she told us,
but unclear, I think.
It's almost as if she wanted to convey
a different truth from the CvI website.
The things that were said
and we've discovered.
I think her main point is they can
give money to whomever they want.
That it doesn't matter what those people
believe or what world view they promote.
They're not responsible
for what is done with the money.
Which, of course, is absurd. It means
you can say you're not responsible...
while giving tens of or even hundreds
of thousands of euros to extremist groups.
You can't just wash your hands of that,
while saying you support them.
I don't know what just happened there.
We'll go and review the facts again,
as we're wont to do.
In any case, we've learned that they'll be
talking to Naty Rom, whatever that means.
It didn't feel as if she took that
seriously. Let's see what she does.
She's going to call Roger van Oord.
I'm curious to see what will come of that.
As for the rest, you've said it all.
The question is how seriously
they're going to take this.
They have the same information we have.
It took us just a few days of googling
to find out what is going wrong.
Did they fail to do that? Or did they
do it, but then just ignored it?
That's also possible.
I think they have, because she just said
it doesn't matter what someone says.
They support all opinions and all views...
even if they are
as you just presented them.
On a closing note:
I hope that nothing happens to Jamal.
He contributed to this programme,
but is his safety now at risk?
He's aware, but we wish him all the best.
We don't tolerate
any antisemitism, islamophobia...
or other forms of discrimination
and racism in the comment section.
Please, refrain from that.
Stick to the facts and nothing
but the facts. This story requires it.
We don't want to seen any hateful stuff.
What a story.
I need the land.
I wish somebody could step in...
and help us with that,
to be able to go there...
but I know whether there's somebody
or not, or somebody can do it or not...
these people don't listen.
These settlers don't listen to nobody.
This entire movement is forbidden
under international law, so that's clear.
It's a bad thing. Palestinians
are suffering the most damage.
It is their land that is being taken.
It is their freedom of movement...
that is being restricted
in a very nasty and intrusive way.
So, that money is used
to violate human rights.
CvI has paused its support to Nati Rom,
pending further investigation.
Sara van Oordt,
CvI's media and communication manager...
has told the Nederlands Dagblad
and Investico...
that support to Nati Rom has been
suspended, pending further investigation.
As for the new housing estate in Revava,
she says:
If it is proven that the houses are built
on the land of a Palestinian farmer...
we will make sure it is moved elsewhere.
CvI does not want to build on any land
that has been stolen.'
In a reaction, Roger van Oordt states that
Nati Rom could not have meant to say...
'that he received cash or any money
off the books, from either me or CvI.'
He writes that 'this never happened'.
Arjen Domburg writes
on behalf of Stichting Israël Heartland...
'that they never donated
money off the books....
or financed the purchase of weapons.'
'The work of undercover reporters
who lie about his indentity...
while inciting, manipulating
and pressuring'...
make it 'problematic to answer questions',
he maintains.
Nati Rom says that his foundation never
received money off the books, or cash...
from CvI, or people associated with CvI.
'They never donated money for weapons,
and they never will.
These are the facts. In all the work we
do, we follow Israeli law to the letter.'
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