I'm here with Sara van Oordt from Christians for Israel. Money from Christians for Israel helps to fund illegal settlements. This money may even buy weapons, as we discovered together with Investico. Right? No. -Yes. Here we go. We can help people get pistol licenses. He went there once and they tied him up and destroyed about 400 trees... while he was watching. Christian Zionism sees Jews only as instrumental. And there's something anti-Semitic in that. If you transfer this amount, my advice is to use a neutral description. "Support for Judea and Samaria" or something like that. No, that isn't neutral. Is that wine from the territories sold here? -Yes. Why? -Because it's very good wine. This is the land of Jamal Faris... a Palestinian olive farmer in Deir Istiya on the West Bank. The land has been owned by his family since the 1950s... but in the early 1990s... a few white trailers appear on the edge of Jamal's land on Palestinian territory. These are houses of Israeli settlers, and they call their settlement Revava. Behind me in Nijkerk here is Christians for Israel's headquarters... a Zionist Christian foundation. In this broadcast, we'll explain the link between Jamal's land and this building. Jamal can't live and work normally on the West Bank due to the Revava settlers. The foundation in this Nijkerk building is one of the facilitators for this. Because we discovered with Investico and the Nederlands Dagblad newspaper... that Dutch Christian Zionist organizations contribute financially... to the expansion of illegal settlements on the West Bank. And this money can be used to bypass European sanctions... or purchase weapons for settlers. So pay attention. This story begins with Jamal, a Palestinian olive farmer. As we mentioned, Jamal has a problem. My name is Jamal Faris. I'm a Palestinian from the West Bank... ...from a small town called Deir Istiya. I was a teacher. And a farmer. I have an olive tree field. And we cannot take care of it right now. But why can't Jamal take care of his olive trees anymore? Here's a brief history lesson. After World War II, in 1948, the state of Israel is declared. Many Palestinians in this area... are displaced and settle in Gaza and on the West Bank... the area between Israel and the Jordan River. The 1949 armistice created a border between Israel and the Palestinian territories. This border, known as the Green Line, is still observed by the United Nations. But during the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel captured the West Bank. Israel has occupied the area to this day. The Palestinian Authority has limited self-rule in Zones A and B... as agreed in the Oslo Accords. The vast majority, zone C, is governed by Israel. However, this doesn't mean Israel can take the land. All Israeli settlements in occupied areas are illegal under international law. In July 2024, the International Court of Justice reaffirmed this. It ruled that the settlements Israel built in the West Bank should not exist... and that Israel must withdraw its settlers from Palestinian territories. But Israeli settlers have been expanding their authority for decades... by building more settlements on Palestinian land. Increasingly, settlers do this with the help of the Israeli army, using a lot of violence. Like Revava, right next to Jamal's olive grove. This field was actually planted... by my father in 1956 and before the Israeli occupation in 1967. In 1991 the settlement started very small at the beginning... and started expanding, and now it's a big settlement. It took all the land over there and they have their wall at the border of my land. We had a problem in the past twenty years taking care of that land... during my father's time. He went there once and they tied him up and they destroyed about 400 trees... while he was watching... and they let the sewage come through our land and killed about 200 trees. So now we don't have too much left, but we still have problems getting there... to harvest our trees. I can't go by myself because I might get beaten or shot. Shortly after the ceasefire in Gaza last January... the Israeli army launched a wide-scale offensive in the West Bank. Palestinians are driven away, attacked, and murdered. Settler violence has also increased recently. Over a hundred incidents have been recorded since early last year. This is my land. I want to take care of it. I don't want to give it up. I want to... fix it... or I will lose it. So with Investico and Nederlands Dagblad we investigated... the Dutch Christian Zionist organisations contributing financially... to making Jamal's life a misery, among other things. I'm Janneke Stegeman. I'm a theologian with a PhD on the Hebrew Bible... and the relationship between identity and conflict in Hebrew texts... such as the use of the Hebrew Bible in today's conflicts in Israel and Palestine. And I teach at VU University. -I'm Ari Dubnov, a historian. I was, born and raised and educated in Israel. I teach Israel studies and Middle Eastern studies at George Washington University. Zionism is a movement which states that Jews... belong in Israel, seen as their historic homeland. Zionism started as Christian Zionism, specifically among Protestants in Europe. This was mainly in the Dutch Republic and also in England. Even before the Zionist movement... before Herzl and people calling themselves Zionists... there were already Christian Zionists, so to speak, saying: "We envision the return of the Jews to the Holy Land... and then it will bring the second coming of Christ." Christians see Jesus as the Messiah... who ascended to Heaven and will return on Judgment Day. This second coming of Christ involves various convictions. Including the return of all Jews to the Holy Land... and converting to Christianity. These texts are largely set in Biblical Judea and Samaria... with Biblical places like East Jerusalem and Bethlehem. So in the Biblical idea that Jews must return to the Holy Land... this area is a vital part of this land. Shortly, we'll call a controversial Israeli settler in the West Bank. We'll discuss donating money... as Dutch donations play a significant part in this story. Attention. Violating human rights and destroying Palestinian lives... has a very simple practical side: it requires money. We'll show you how this money flows and the crucial role of the Netherlands. How important are the Dutch for the Christian Friends of Israel? Wonderful people, just wonderful. We love them deeply and the relationship is so strong. Friendship. You heard Sondra Baras speaking to our colleagues from Investico... when they visited the West Bank last January. Baras is the founder and former director of the CFO-IC... the Christian Friends of Israeli Communities. This CFO-IC is an international Christian Zionist organization... that coordinates projects in the settlements on the West Bank. The money CFO-IC receives from donors around the world... flows through Baras to these settlements on the West Bank. These funds are used for community centers and clinics... but also on drones and bulletproof vests for settlers. Israel receives funds from around the world... but in financial aid to the settler movement, the Netherlands plays a key part. While the US is probably the primary financial contributor, says Baras... the relationship with the Netherlands is also very close. Our partnership with Holland is vital. We work closely with Christians for Israel. Christians for Israel, or CFI, has a turnover of 13 million euros. It's the largest Christian Zionist foundation in the Netherlands... and supports projects on the West Bank, according to research by Investico. CFI, based in Nijkerk, was founded in the 1980s... and mainly finds support within the orthodox-Protestant churches. CFI's mission is... making Christians aware of the Jewish people's role in God's world plan. The foundation doesn't see the West Bank as occupied territory... but as the heart of Biblical Israel assigned to the Jewish people. CFI therefore does not use the term West Bank, but Judea and Samaria. CFI's influence extends to the highest circles in American politics. Listen to Leon Meijer... former board member of the Christian Union Party and current CFI international chair. Mr. Meijer, you were at Mar-a-Lago not too long ago. Why were you there? There was a Jerusalem Prayer Breakfast, a gathering for Jerusalem's peace. And the organization had discussed this with Trump. "Can we hold this prayer meeting at your estate?" He replied, "Jerusalem is close to my heart. I've moved the American embassy there... so I invite you to have the prayer meeting on the estate." A remarkable choice, I think. -Yes. CFI has its own newspaper, talk show, and retail company... called Israel Products Center, offering goods from the... as they call it, "Promised Land", including the occupied territories. There's also a business club with over 300 entrepreneurs. CFI also organizes trips to Israel for volunteers and... in line with the orthodox-Protestant Zionist body of thought... helps Jewish people from around the world with "aliyah": The return to the promised land. They're going to build up a new life in Israel. It makes me think of Isaiah 43, where the Lord says: "Bring my sons and bring my daughters home from far away." These young Jewish children between 13 and 17 years... are the young new sons and daughters that we may bring back to the land of Israel. You could say... that one of the problems with Christian Zionism... is that they see Jews only instrumentally. And I think there's something anti-Semitic in that. So it's not interest in Jews as Jews see themselves... but only in Jews as they fit into the Christian story. It's a problematic vision as Jews are just seen as means to an end. They are actually the small chess pieces. They're the soldiers you sacrifice on your way to a bigger vision. With all those donations, CFI realizes projects in what they call Judea and Samaria. In other words, on Palestinian territory. And this is in conflict with Dutch policy. The Dutch government supports a two-state solution... viewing Israeli settlements in occupied Palestinian territories... as illegal and peace-threatening. But in CFI's monthly newspaper, another reality seems to be presented. For there, we read this: In December 2024, CFI contributed to the construction of a retirement home... for stationed Israeli soldiers. In 2022, to a scouting club in East Talpiot... and in that same year, the Israel Products Center in the Netherlands... donated their store profits to a winemaker in Kiryat Arba... a settlement near Hebron. Jewish people brought to Israel by the First Home in the Homeland program... are also being settled by CFI on the West Bank... as we read in blogs on the Christians for Israel website... which is CFI's international branch. Some CFI funds bound for the West Bank... go to the Christian Friends of Israeli Communities we mentioned before. And this brings us back to Jamal. For, in 2023, CFOIC director Sondra Baras thanks CFI Holland... for a major contribution to the security system of a new residential area in Revava. The existence of Reviva and its expansion has direct consequences... for the Palestinians who own and cultivate the adjoining land, including Jamal. Part of his land next to the illegal settlement of Revava's wall... is too dangerous for him to enter. Even reaching his own land has been made impossible for him. I used to go from this town to my field straightforward in the car... but when they built the settlement, it's an obstacle between my town and my field. It's in the middle, actually. We have to go through it and now we're not allowed to go through the settlement. I can't get close to it. Please go up. It's not by distance 40 meters up. What if you just keep two soldiers to protect us here and just finish it? What's the deal? Why? It's no big issue. We're peaceful people, just here to pick olives... and we have trouble even using roads. So now we have to make a big circle all the way to the west... taking bad roads, not active streets. It's just roads they use for animals. And it takes two hours for me to get to my field. If it was free like before I could drive my car... and just within a few minutes, if I have that big field... we could be making good money out of it from that oil. But now we lost that chance. Those 800 trees that we've had... they could make maybe three, four tons of oil... and that was ten, fifteen, twenty thousand dollars. Now we don't have that chance. How can we live without money? Attention. We read something else in the Christians for Israel newspaper. After October 7th, 2023, Christians for Israel creates an emergency fund. Part of the donations collected by CFI through this fund goes to Or Ami... a foundation set up by settler activist and lawyer Nati Rom. Remember that name. Nati Rom regularly visits the Netherlands at the invitation of CFI... and even set up a foundation here: The Israel Heartland Foundation. This is Nati Rom. Attention. Shalom friends from Jabalia. Shabbat shalom to our friends worldwide. With God's help, we'll win. We will do it together with the rabbi over there. We do whatever we can to wreak redemption here in Jabalia. As written in here: Shabbat shalom from the heartland of Israel. Rom supports demonstrators who attacked aid convoys at the Gaza border... and defends IDF soldiers standing trial for systematic rape of Palestinian prisoners. His third specialty is applying for and defending weapon permits. When not aiding settlers, he serves as an Israeli army reservist. Rom is seen in videos with night vision drones... a new watchtower for an army base on the West Bank... and a group of heavily armed men he seems to be training. For drones and watchtower purchases, Dutch donors are thanked on the blog. But where Rom got the weapons from, is unclear. Arjen Domburg, chairman of the Israel Heartland Foundation... and Nati Rom's right-hand man in the Netherlands... doesn't seem to know where all donations go. Days after the shooting men video, Domburg writes this. "Equipment has been bought for the villages' security. What, where and how isn't exactly clear, but a lot of equipment has been bought." Of course we had many questions, but Rom won't answer Investico. So, we decided together with our colleagues from Investico to take a different approach. We created the character Albert Dijkstra, played by Allard from Investico. Dijkstra, from Drachtsercompagnie, has inherited money from his mother... and wants to donate 15,000 to 20,000 euros to Rom's Dutch foundation. We tell this story to the Israel Heartland Foundation chairman, Arjen Domburg. As Rom's Dutch right-hand man... ...he can tell us more about the exact destination of the Dutch money. And we might also learn more... about Christians for Israel's financial flows. The conversation with Domburg starts like this. Good morning, this is Albert Dijkstra. Good morning. -Hi. Thanks for calling. I can imagine it's difficult for Mr. Rom over there and also for you... to get funding for the "heavier" stuff. So as far as I am concerned... if it's about equipment or weapons... ...I'm fine with all of it. I'll help if needed. No, we don't actually do those kinds of things. I mean, weapons aren't just sold on the nearest street corner in Israel. Another thing. You mentioned those newsletters... with a summary of what you've been doing over the past few months, the past year. Are they on your website? No, because sometimes the newsletters contain stuff... we'd rather not publish. Right, I see. Domburg isn't showing all his cards yet, but we also ask him: "Our donation will be substantial. Can we talk to Nati Rom himself?" It works. I think it's best if I contact Nati... to discuss this matter. And then I'll send you an email. Is that a good idea? Yes, that is a good idea. This is where it gets interesting. Domburg puts us in contact with Nati Rom. Nati Rom is a key figure in a network of controversial West Bank settlers. His Or Ami foundation collaborates with the Dutch Israel Heartland Foundation... but also receives money from Christians for Israel's emergency fund. We agree to call him two days later. Hi. Good afternoon. -Good afternoon. First, Rom tells us that he uses food vouchers for sanctioned settlers... for other purposes too. Between you and me, we don't know each other yet... but this is the reason I use the food cards, because it's not only food... it's the card that they can use in one hundred main stores in Israel. They can also buy a tool, working tool. There's a lot of options. Okay, so they can use the card how they want... even if they have trouble with the what's it called the sanctions or... Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, yes. If you work with any of the people that were attacked by the EU or the US, I would... I am. I represent them in court and also we are supporting them in their places for sure. Then it's on to our donation. How would Rom like to receive that money? Through the Israel Heartland Foundation or is cash preferred? Cash is always the best. For example... ...there's people who are stuck with the sanction. For them, cash is the best. So we do for them the food card. But also the foundation is okay. Yes, we have our ways. Okay, so cash is the best. But what is Nati Rom actually going to do with our cash? Here's the answer. We can help people get licenses for pistols. We can also subsidize the price. To subsidize for people who want to buy, to subsidize the price, this can be. How much will it cost to subsidize also a pistol or a firearm? Does that, is that...? It depends on us. Let's say a firearm here will cost something like 3000 or 4000. It depends. And so it depends on us also how much... I think you don't need to subsidize everything. Just half or three quarters or something like that. Perfect. And then if I send the money... if I do it via Heartland here... that will get to you...? Yeah. -Okay. Arjen is an amazing person... with giving not only his time, but everything for this. It's amazing. Yes. Right. With the money we donate to him... Nati Rom can finance weapons for settlers. And although Arjen Domburg previously denied this... Rom says this can be done through Israel Heartland Foundation in the Netherlands. Then Nati Rom suddenly starts talking about Roger van Oordt... the former director of Christians for Israel. Roger van Oordt is a very good friend of mine. He came to my place like twenty times. We're very connected, I love him very much. He's a great person, but for years... his organization rather give millions to projects like... building the windmill in Jerusalem and flowers... and they didn't want to be connected because they were afraid. And when he was helping me it was in a small amount and secretly. This is one of the things I'm saying. From time to time he used to help us... but secretly. He has his way how to do it. But for what I do, for what I want, I don't do flowers. Okay, Nati Rom doesn't do flowers. And CFI found donating as a foundation difficult... but luckily the director of CFI himself came by with cash. But why is that such a smart idea? If I could help you do most of it off the books... you can spend it more easily on subsidising pistols and stuff... because otherwise that would be difficult, or what? It's always easier in the other way. Yeah, okay. -God bless you. Thank you so much. Good luck, please stay safe, okay? Oh, my God. Funding pistols is possible. How about calling Arjen Domburg now? So in summary, Nati Rom wants to take our money and can buy weapons with it too. He prefers to get money off the books, like Roger van Oordt did it... but the Heartland Foundation works as well. We decide to call chairman Arjen Domburg again with this good news. Is he still on board with this info in his pocket? Arjen Domburg speaking. Hi, good afternoon. -Good afternoon. Hi. I just called Nati. -Oh, nice. It was really a great conversation. I'm really impressed. Nati and I decided together it would be best... ...if the money could be spent on cameras for those families or communities. He also talked about firearm and quad subsidies. Nati said the easiest way is to just transfer it to the Heartland Foundation. We could do it early next week. So you can forward it right away and ensure it goes to those three things? I'll send the whole amount all at once. I'll forward it to Nati's foundation. Then he can access it directly. If you transfer this sum, my advice would be to use a neutral description. Like "support for Judea and Samaria" or something. I wouldn't mention that. -No? No, that's not neutral. I would just say "support Nati Rom" or "N. Rom" or "support..." Or maybe just in Dutch, to let sleeping dogs lie. Last time you mentioned 15,000 to 20,000 euros. I wouldn't take that out in cash... and get on a plane. Right. What kind of expenses are best in cash? The kind of things we just talked about. Those are the... How can I put it? The more difficult cases where no one wants to leave any traces. The roads, the weapons, that kind of thing. I think so. Christians of Israel, with the Van Oord family... they have much more cash available because of their collection money. Yes, I see. Like Nati... I remember a few years ago. I think was the first time I met him. He gave three talks for Christians from Israel. There were three collections, and in one church, 500 people attended. Then the cash adds up quickly. And then you get to take the stationery. You know we're a Public Benefit Organization? So tax-wise that's also interesting. So what can we conclude from this? 1: Nati Rom can help settlers in illegal settlements to get weapons... and ensure they're untraceable. This can be done with Dutch money. 2: Donations from the Heartland Foundation... are sometimes brought to Israel in cash for "difficult" purchases. 3: Roger van Oordt, a member of the CFI family for 45 years... is good friends with Nati Rom... and has occasionally made secret and off-the-books donations when visiting Rom. 4: CFI held multiple collections at gatherings where Nati Rom spoke in the Netherlands... and gave him the cash. 5: With the food cards for which Nati Rom collected money... sanctioned settlers could not only buy food but also purchase other items. In this way, EU sanctions on those settlers could be bypassed. Ivo Amar, a sanction law specialist, says this: Economic resources means essentially everything that has value. It can be a food voucher or a gift card, even a car. Basically anything movable, immovable, even intangible... that represents any value, so even a service... ...may not be provided to such a settler. That would be a criminal offense. I'm also a Christian... so let's say it's a Christian value to treat others as you wish to be treated. I think it's harsh that Palestinians are totally absent from this story. While all our eyes are set on Gaza for obvious reasons... on the other hand, it allows the settlers in the West Bank... what they call Judea and Samaria... to do what is practically an ethnic cleansing that no one is paying attention to. So the idea is that God promised the land to the Jews... and the Palestinians, as original inhabitants... have to go and live in another Arab country. It shows that Christian Zionism is always connected with colonialism. They're building up more houses, and somebody is helping them, I guess... sending them money to expand. I wish these settlements will be dismantled and leave. Because as long as they are there, they will keep bothering us... and they will keep expanding. They should stop, because we are humans too. We are natives here. You are encouraging this town, this settlement, to expand... and take our land. It's our land for thousands of years, that field. <i>Dutch Faces Behind Settlement</i> "This is Settlers' Language." We're headed to Christians for Israel, in this building, Obviously, we have some questions. Before we get there, we first want to show you... who's behind Christians for Israel and the route to this discussion. Christians for Israel is run by the Van Oordt family. Frank van Oordt, son of founder Karel van Oordt... has led the foundation since 2020. Frank succeeded his brother Roger van Oordt, whom you heard of earlier. Roger led Christians for Israel for nearly 30 years. He now has a new position... as honorary consul of the State of Israel in the Netherlands. This means he assists Dutch nationals abroad... and looks after Dutch trade interests in Israel. According to Nati Rom, Roger allegedly smuggled cash to the West Bank. Then there's Sara van Oordt, married to the founder's grandson. She's CFI's head of media and communication and hosts their talk show. It's 2025 and Israel has been at war for 458 days now. In the 2023 elections, she was a candidate for the Christian Union Party. We first call Frank, the foundation's director, to discuss our findings. You're saying quite something there. But what you're saying isn't true at all. -What isn't true? You're saying we finance illegal settlements. You're saying we finance those. That's not true at all. I think you should call our spokesperson. So who should I call? -Sara van Oort. Frank directs us to Sara and we call her. She needs some time but calls back later. She wants to come and talk. Okay, great. Let's arrange that. Tuesday at 10 o'clock. Hi. Hello. -Welcome. Tim. Nice to meet you. -Sara. Welcome to the center. -Thank you. Can we put the camera on the shoulder? -Sure. We'd like to discuss some things you fund. Starting with Revava. In 2022, you supported the construction of a new neighborhood. How much did you contribute? We sponsored twelve houses there. Temporary homes that are also movable. They were 25,000 euros each. Why did you choose to donate specifically to this project? We've supported many projects for years. It was a project at the start of the Ukraine crisis... when Ukrainian refugees flooded into the Netherlands as well as Israel. In Israel, they were housed in places including Revava. And why was the choice made to locate it in that neighborhood? The municipality chose that. It's within municipal boundaries, so they decide. They had space for twelve little houses. So it's not a whole neighborhood, just twelve temporary homes. They were built under Israeli law... partly on land from a Palestinian from the nearby village of Deir Istiya... and partly on land managed by Israel without permission given. Nearby buildings are under demolition order by the Israeli government. Specifically for this neigborhood? -Yes. You didn't know this? -I wasn't aware of it. Is that checked before you finance a neighborhood? We always consult the local municipality for suitable locations. And they said, "This area is in Zone C under the Oslo Accords." It's under Israeli administration, and they chose this area. Israeli administration doesn't mean it's Israeli land. You know that. That's disputed. You're the ones disputing it. Legally, it's true. Can you repeat the question? -It wasn't a question. I provided information. You say it's disputed, but you're disputing it. It's under Israeli military law, but Israel can't just take the land. That's not entirely true. The Oslo Accords were signed in the 1990s. Zones A, B, and C were agreed upon. C is under Israeli administration. Military administration? Yes, but also civilian administration, because Israelis live there. A is under Palestinian control. B is under shared control. There, military law applies, but not in C. The idea about the C area is that it's controlled fully by Israel... in terms of its police and military... not in terms of the way you run the land there. The Israeli parliament never passed a law saying area C is Israeli territory. So that's part of what's going on here. As we've seen now... contributing to the expansion of Israeli settlements is a violation of international law. According to the Oslo Accords, Israel has the right... They're a basis for a final agreement. Which hasn't been reached. -Unfortunately, not yet. Which means that the West Bank... -Is disputed. Can be governed by the Israelis... but it doesn't mean Palestinian land must be given up. Conflicts happen and they also go to court. If it turns out that the land is in fact owned by Palestinians... the court will rule that those settlements must be cleared. It has happened before. It will happen again. I've checked whether there is a claim on Revava. There is, but it has never been to court. There are many conflicts in the West Bank in the C area where Israel is in control... where Palestinians say the land is ours. So they go to court, and yes, lawsuits do drag on. Sometimes the ruling is in favor of Israel, sometimes of Palestinians. Just to be clear, the homes in question in Revava are illegal under Israeli law. This is documented... and these buildings received a demolition order from the Israeli authorities in 2022. That's the issue here. You still believe it's morally justified to support this. It's under Israeli administration. Israel is a democratic state of law and land conflicts are decided in court. And if the land is not Israel's but belongs to Palestinians, we'll relocate those homes. Is that a deal? -We simply adhere to the law. Revava's existence and expansion directly impacts Palestinians with land next to it. One is Jamal Faris, a Palestinian olive farmer from Deir Istiya. His land borders directly on the wall of the illegal settlement of Revava. It's too dangerous for him to access. He can hardly reach his own land. We have an audio clip. He went there once and they tied him up and destroyed about 400 trees... while he was watching. So now we don't have too much left, but we still have problems getting there... to harvest our trees. I can't go by myself because I might get beaten or shot. That's the situation for him and other Palestinians in the area. Does this affect you? -It affects me a lot. Will it impact funds to Revava from Christians for Israel? It affects me greatly, the suffering. I want to emphasize that. If it turns out our sponsored houses shouldn't be there... we'll relocate them, but we'll investigate this thoroughly. We owe responsibility to our donors. I must explain our financial spending to them. So you promise to thoroughly investigate this? And if according to international law it's wrong to displace these Palestinians... your foundation will pull out? -Of course. Let's talk about Nati Rom. -I know him. Nati Rom gave three talks in the Netherlands in June 2022. Collections were made when Nati Rom spoke here... at your invitation. You gave him the cash money. Why did that money go to Nati Rom? -I don't recall. When was this? 2022. -I don't remember exactly. I'd have to check. But we did sponsor him immediately after October 7th. So money went to Or Ami from your emergency fund? But in 2022, we didn't yet have an emergency fund. That was in 2023, but in 2022 you gave the collection money to Rom. It's all recorded. We don't just hand over an envelope. Nothing off the books? -Of course not. Let's start with that cash money in '22 that went to Nati Rom. Want was that meant for? I'd have to check. Why donate to Or Ami, to his foundation, from the emergency fund? We donate to many organizations. -Yes. We list about 20 on our website, I think. -What are the conditions? Conditions for...? -For receiving money from you. The conditions are... After October 7th, the Hamas massacre, we saw Israel in need. We set up an emergency fund to support people with food parcels... emergency kits and also security. We sponsored a number of shelters for people seeking refuge in bunkers. The condition is that it must fit our policy. We want to give humanitarian aid... and support people, both Jews and Palestinians, with food aid, for instance. Are there limits you won't cross? Things your foundation shouldn't do? There are many things a foundation shouldn't do. We're against violence, so we don't support violence. Would you indirectly fund weapons? -Neither directly nor indirectly. No way. Then I'd like to play you something. We can help people get licenses for pistols. We can also subsidize the price. To subsidize for people who want to buy, to subsidize the price, this can be. How much would it cost to subsidize also a pistol or a firearm? It depends on us. Let's say a firearm here will cost something like 3000 or 4000. It depends. Do you get what's being said? That you could subsidize a weapon or something, right? With donated money. -But not from Christians for Israel. That is the question. -That is the answer. Are you sure? I'm 100% sure. -How do you know? It goes against our policy. Donations are earmarked for specific goals. We're a serious Public Benefit Organisation. We adhere to rules, that's our policy. What would we gain by doing this? Let's put this in moral terms. Would you continue work with Nati Rom and his foundation... knowing he also finances weapons with donations? That's a hard question. -Why? You're confronting me with this now. I asked to get your questions up front. I didn't get them, so we couldn't confer. Christians for Israel doesn't support weapons. I want to emphasize this again. You just hope. -I'm sure of it. It's not hope. Our books are in order. We know what we're donating to. So let's look at the books. -Yes. We had another talk with Nati Rom and Arjen Domburg. You know him, I think. I know his name, not the person. -From the Heartland Foundation. This was a conversation about Roger van Oordt, well-known to you. Roger van Oordt is a very good friend of mine. He came to my place like twenty times. You know this, right? -I do. He brings groups to us to be inspired, you know. And he for years and years... We're very connected and I love him personally very much. He's a great person, but for years... his organization rather gives millions to projects like... building the windmill in Jerusalem and flowers... and they didn't want to be connected because they were afraid. And when he was helping me, it was in a small amount and secretly. So from time to time he used to help us... but secretly. He has his way how to do it. But for what I do, for what I want, I don't do flowers. Nati Rom is talking about off-the-books money which Roger van Oordt... Secretly, he said. I don't recognize that. He talked about off-the-books money... and said that Roger van Oort provided him with cash, and possibly implies there... as you heard, "I don't do flowers"... implying off-the-books actions like possibly financing weapons. I stick to my story. We don't finance weapons on the books... and we don't do anything off the books. -Nati Rom says you do. Those are his words. We don't do things off the books. I can't check it... -You'll have to take my word for it. Will you ask Roger van Oordt? -No, I'll look into this, of course. Are you shocked? We're being presented with things I'm not aware of. As Christians for Israel, we're accountable for our donations. I stand by that, having insight into the projects we support. We do not support violence. Period. You also funded 2,000 food vouchers in 2023. Let's discuss food vouchers. We'll go back to Nati Rom. Between you and me, we don't know each other yet... but this is the reason I use the food cards, because it's not only food... it's a card that they can use in one hundred main stores in Israel. They can also buy a tool, working tool. One project that might be interesting for you... is buying a small car, an ATV, I can show you a picture. It's for guarding at night and in the day they're working with it. There's a lot of options. -Okay. So the card is... They can use it how they want, even if they have trouble with the... what's it called, the sanctions or... Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, yes. What Nati Rom tells us is that the food vouchers here... can help bypass sanctions against settlers sanctioned by bodies like the EU. This isn't about gifts from Christians for Israel. No, but my question is: When you hear this, Nati Rom funding weapons... accepting cash from Roger van Oordt and wanting to bypass sanctions... our expert says this was about bypassing sanctions... is this enough to stop working with the foundation? We're against any form of violence. -Yes, you said that. And we will talk to Nati Rom. We know... You'll talk to Nati Rom, but... -Definitely. We've cooperated with him for many years. If it turns out that donations from Christians for Israel are misused by him... we'll ask questions and we'll stop if he continues to do so. Why do you call this area Judea and Samaria instead of the West Bank? It's the name used in Israel for the area. Yes, but it's the West Bank. -It's just a name, right? It's like North and South Holland together making up Holland. That's what it's called. In Israel, it's Judea and Samaria. A biblical term. -Biblical, but used in Israel. This is the way the religious settlers refer to the land in its biblical terms. It's not the way the great majority of Israelis... nor the legal system, nor the documents refer to it. The Israelis up to recently would call it "Hagda Ma'aravi"... which is literally the West Bank. You contribute directly to Nati Rom's foundation... which is clearly committed to maintaining and expanding settlements. You have contributed directly to the expansion of the settlement in Revava. And you work with Sondra Baras' Christian Friends of Israeli Communities. She has said, I believe on British tv, after Trump came to power... that Palestinians should accept the fact that they will never have sovereignty. In a draconian regime, the first thing you're saying is... teaching people how to speak a new language. So this is... -This is settler lingo. This is settler language... as if ignoring the United Nations and all the resolutions that passed since 1967. In that sense you say, "we'll accept whatever happens." But in the meantime, you commit financially and materially... to organizations whose goal is to make the West Bank as Jewish as possible. I'm not concerned with the opinions of those you mentioned. But you do support them financially. -We also back those against Netanyahu. We know what we're supporting. Donations go to specific projects. It's about supporting an ideology... -We don't support any ideology. This is strange. If I tie Allard's laces and then slap you... I can't say, "I slapped you, but I also tied his laces, so it's okay." You're supporting foundations that contribute to the colonisation of territories. We just support people. -You're not just supporting people. Yes, we do. We're discussing opinions. You have your opinion about the territory's future. That's irrelevant, as I don't oversee a donating foundation. You donate a lot of Dutch money. -It's not that much for those territories. Such extreme remarks aren't a problem? -You say extreme, but she may have a point. Currently it might be better if Israel controls the area... rather than having a Palestinian authority or even Hamas in control. Purely in pragmatic terms. Just now, the Palestinian population suffers from a poorly organized leadership... so maybe it's more of a pragmatic approach than an ideological approach. I must go against this, for there's much more going on than... It complicates when Palestinians want their land... but when it's about Palestinian leadership, it's straightforward. You know that's very complex too. -Extremely complex. What would it take for Christians for Israel to stop supporting or donating? When would we pull out? When violence is used. Can you define that? Well, violence. Weapons maybe? We don't do that. It's against our policy. We want no part in that. Stealing land? -Nor in that. Colonising? -We abide by the law. What can we agree upon after this conversation? You'll look into Revava. We've just told you the story. If it's illegal and hampers people like Jamal... ...you'll end your support, the homes must go. They'll have to be moved. -Where? I don't know yet. Then there's Nati Rom. You'll wash our hands of him. Look, we'll talk with Nati Rom. You've confronted me today with a telephone conversation I was unaware of. We'll talk to Nati Rom and see what the consequences will be. So spreading an ideology would not be enough for you to pull out? This is about politics, not ideology. That's okay. This is a free country, and so is Israel. Different opinions are allowed. Everything you do has been allowed so far. How does the foundation see it? You speak for it, right? We don't support people based on their political views. We just support all people. But that's not what you guys do, right? Never mind. I'm also hitting a wall, I think. Why use organizations like CFOIC or Nati Rom's... or the Itamar foundation, where we know that people... Itamar is notorious for its violent settlers. Nati Rom makes strong public statements about their West Bank vision. Ms. Baras tells the BBC she wants sovereignty to go to Israel. And you support that financially. -We support the people financially. I can't sugarcoat it. All we do, is support activities in Israel. We support people who need it. -Who say these things. In Israel, there are many different opinions on the future of the conflict. You choose to support a certain opinion. -Our support is independent of that. But you are supporting it. It amounts to the same thing. You support the people who hold these views... even if you say you don't support them because of those views. That's what we do, indeed. There's nothing wrong with that. Because in Israel there are many opinions about the future of the West Bank. They believe it would be best if Israel were in charge. So, that's the conclusion. It doesn't matter if she says that, she can still expect money from CvI. So, that's cleared now. We've come to the point. -Great. Right? We have everything we needed. We wanted to hear your reaction. Have a good day. -Thank you. Is the wine from the occupied territories sold here too? Why is that? Is this part of the interview? -Sure. Because it's very tasty wine. -Even if it's from occupied territory. It's under dispute. -It's occupied. It's under dispute. -Occupied. There's a dispute, to be clear. -Yes, but it's clearly occupied. This is George Orwell 101. If you want a draconian regime... the first thing you do, is teach people how to speak a new language. It's the settler lingo, the settler language. As if ignoring the United Nations and all the resolutions that passed since 1967. So, Israel occupied these territories, there are territories that are occupied. Israel recognizes that this is occupied territory in terms of international law. It's not illegal to occupy a territory. That's the key thing. It's problematic, it should be temporary, but it's not illegal to occupy land. What is illegal, is to then send settlers into the occupied territories and so on. This is where we're going into legal... One of the tactics of settlers to say there's nothing problematic about it... is to blur the fact that this is occupied land. So, this is again a type of debate about terminology... that appeared immediately after 1967, disappeared and now reappears again... in which the hawkish Israeli right is saying: Don't call it occupied territory. They'll call it disputed territory. That's what the international community says. It's simply in Area C... which is under Israeli control according to the Oslo Accords. The wine's from that area. -Which is occupied. It's clearly labeled. We have a booklet on the wine's origin. Occupied territory. -Disputed. Does it taste well? -It's delicious. Thank you. She was consistent in what she told us, but unclear, I think. It's almost as if she wanted to convey a different truth from the CvI website. The things that were said and we've discovered. I think her main point is they can give money to whomever they want. That it doesn't matter what those people believe or what world view they promote. They're not responsible for what is done with the money. Which, of course, is absurd. It means you can say you're not responsible... while giving tens of or even hundreds of thousands of euros to extremist groups. You can't just wash your hands of that, while saying you support them. I don't know what just happened there. We'll go and review the facts again, as we're wont to do. In any case, we've learned that they'll be talking to Naty Rom, whatever that means. It didn't feel as if she took that seriously. Let's see what she does. She's going to call Roger van Oord. I'm curious to see what will come of that. As for the rest, you've said it all. The question is how seriously they're going to take this. They have the same information we have. It took us just a few days of googling to find out what is going wrong. Did they fail to do that? Or did they do it, but then just ignored it? That's also possible. I think they have, because she just said it doesn't matter what someone says. They support all opinions and all views... even if they are as you just presented them. On a closing note: I hope that nothing happens to Jamal. He contributed to this programme, but is his safety now at risk? He's aware, but we wish him all the best. We don't tolerate any antisemitism, islamophobia... or other forms of discrimination and racism in the comment section. Please, refrain from that. Stick to the facts and nothing but the facts. This story requires it. We don't want to seen any hateful stuff. What a story. I need the land. I wish somebody could step in... and help us with that, to be able to go there... but I know whether there's somebody or not, or somebody can do it or not... these people don't listen. These settlers don't listen to nobody. This entire movement is forbidden under international law, so that's clear. It's a bad thing. Palestinians are suffering the most damage. It is their land that is being taken. It is their freedom of movement... that is being restricted in a very nasty and intrusive way. So, that money is used to violate human rights. CvI has paused its support to Nati Rom, pending further investigation. Sara van Oordt, CvI's media and communication manager... has told the Nederlands Dagblad and Investico... that support to Nati Rom has been suspended, pending further investigation. As for the new housing estate in Revava, she says: If it is proven that the houses are built on the land of a Palestinian farmer... we will make sure it is moved elsewhere. CvI does not want to build on any land that has been stolen.' In a reaction, Roger van Oordt states that Nati Rom could not have meant to say... 'that he received cash or any money off the books, from either me or CvI.' He writes that 'this never happened'. Arjen Domburg writes on behalf of Stichting Israël Heartland... 'that they never donated money off the books.... or financed the purchase of weapons.' 'The work of undercover reporters who lie about his indentity... while inciting, manipulating and pressuring'... make it 'problematic to answer questions', he maintains. Nati Rom says that his foundation never received money off the books, or cash... from CvI, or people associated with CvI. 'They never donated money for weapons, and they never will. These are the facts. In all the work we do, we follow Israeli law to the letter.' If you found this video interesting, subscribe to our channel. It's free and keeps you up-to-date. Every Tuesday, we broadcast on this channel... and every Thursday, on all other platforms with RADIO BOOS, our podcast. See you. There won't be a show next week, but the week after that. That has to do with the story that we're airing that week. So, brace yourselves.