9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Brian Williams[br]It's a part of American life, when something is no longer useful to you, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 you give it to Goodwill. You drop it in the Goodwill box, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 perhaps in the supermarket parking lot near you, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and you've then done something good, with something you no longer consider good. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You may know that Goodwill donation centers employ disabled workers, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but you may not realize that some of those workers are legally exempt from minimum wage protection. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That means that some end up making just pennies per hour. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It is legal, but tonight, Harry Smith takes on the question of fairness. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]Goodwill, a place where you feel good about leaving your old clothes, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 a place where you feel good about shopping in a tough economy. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Goodwill's mission is give jobs to people who are down on their luck, or have a disability. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Goodwill does a lot of good, no question about it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But in back rooms like this one, in Great Falls, Montana, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 out of sight of donors and shoppers, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 there is something going on that many disabled people do not feel so good about. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 People with disabilties working for less than the federal minimum wage of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 of $7.25 an hour. There are even places in America where Goodwill workers earn as little as $0.22 an hour. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And because of a loophole in the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 it's all perfectly legal 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Voice:[br]That's ridiculous. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith: Harold and Sheila Leigland have been married for more than twenty years. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Both are blind and both have college degrees. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Sheila worked at the Goodwill facility in Great Falls, Montana, earning about $3.50 an hour for four years. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 She says she quit last summer when they lowered her wage to $2.75 an hour. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Sheila Leigland:[br]At $2.75, it would barely cover my cost of getting to work. I wouldn't make any money. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]They call the facility "the plant," and Harold still works there. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It operates what's called a "sheltered workshop." 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Here the disabled get virtually guaranteed employment, but they are not guaranteed minimum wage. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And that doesn't matter to some of the workers. Jeremy Davidson loves it here. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]You love it here? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Jeremey Davidson:[br]I love it here, more than the world, more than the world yes. I also love, um, NASCAR, but this and NASCAR are my two favorite things in life. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith: But for others, it is a dead end, a job of last resort in a world in which there are few options. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 What's your wage right now? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harold Leigland:[br]$5.46 an hour. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]$5.46 an hour? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harold Leigland:[br]And that could change in a few months. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It could change because sheltered workshop wages are determined by a speed test every six months. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Goodwill staff use a stop watch to see how many items of clothing 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harold can hang in a minute. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harold Leigland:[br]You're allowed two mistakes, and then anything else after that 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 your quality is considered poor. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 So, your perecentage of wage goes down. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We talked with three advocates for the disabled, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 all of whom are disabled themselves. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I wouldn't pay anyone a sub minimum wage because I'm not willing to tell people day after day, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 week after week, month after month, and year after year that they are not worth it. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Dr. Mark Mauer, President of the National Association of the Blind, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 has been leading the fight to ban sheltered workshops altogether. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 The sheletered workshop system takes people and systematically tells them 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they're not as good as the rest of the workforce. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 We found Department of Labor records showing hourly wages for Goodwill works in Pennslyvania 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 as low as $0.22 an hour, $0.38, $0.41, $0.44, the list of wages under $2.00 goes on and on. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But that's only part of the story. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 While some Goodwill workers are making pennies, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 their bosses are faring a bit better. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 A half-dozen regional Goodwill CEO's make $400,000 a year or more. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Many others make nearly that much. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 In 2011, the CEO of Goodwill Industries of Southern California took home $1.1 million dollars in salary 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and deferred compensation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 As someone who is an advocate for the disabled, how does that sit with you? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Woman:[br]Is my head spinning right now? Because that's how it sits with me. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Cathy Steffke once worked at a Goodwill. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 She's a disability rights activist, based in Wisconsin. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Cathy Steffke:[br]How can anybody go into human services thinking they're going to get rich. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And do so, o-on, on, on the labor of the most vulnerable citizens we have. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 How can that be fair or, or ethical? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]What's more, Goodwill grosses almost $5 billion dollars a year. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Advocates are outraged that a tax exempt, non profit that gets hundreds of millions of dollars in government funding, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 does not pay some of its workers minimum wage. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Does it feel like exploitation to you? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Man:[br]It is exploitation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It is unquestionably, and clearly exploitation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Ari Ne'eman is President of the Autistic Self Advocacy Network. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Ari Ne'eman:[br]They're able to collect charitable donations, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 they're able to present themselves as doing good work, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and yet they don't have to do right by their workers. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]Ari, let me ask you this: 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If I'm an executive for Goodwill, one of my arguments is, "I'm paying wages that are commensurate with the ability 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 "of the people who—," you smile, "with the people I have in my workshop". 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Ari Ne'eman:[br]I think, that if you had a person with a stopwatch, um, standing outside your office on any given day, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and assess as compared to some hypothetical, um, other broadcaster, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 how productive you are,uh, I-I think the result would be somewhat arbitrary. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Jim Gibbons, President of Goodwill Industries International, dismisses Goodwill's critics. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Jim Gibbons:[br]When the elitists, uh, try to define somebody else's success, that that's not only insulting to me 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in terms of the work that I'm trying to accomplish, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 but to the individuals who, who have goals that they have established for themselves. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]So, the people who we've talked to, who say that this is a civil rights issue, you, you would say they're elitist? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Jim Gibbons:[br]I would say that every individual has a right to define success for themselves. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]Gibbons, who himself is blind, made more than a half a million dollars in 2011. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 He insists, Goodwill payscale and sheltered workshops is fair. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 As I look at some of the hourly wages: $1.00, $1.52, $0.58 an hour, $1.30, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 this just goes on and on and on. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Jim Gibbons:[br]You know, Harry, no matter what the person's, uh, issues are, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 whether it's a disability or anything else, what you see is, uh, that everything is 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 focused on the individual, their goals, their skillsets and their ability. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]Your regional CEOs, some of them are making a half million dollars or more, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 how do you justify that disparity? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Jim Gibbons:[br]I think these leaders are having a big impact in terms of new solutions, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 in terms of innovation, and in terms of job creation. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 I hear what you're saying, but I'm looking at a company that makes so much money. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Looks to me like you've got the money to pay these people minimum wage. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 JIm Gibbons:[br]The, the, the whole driving force of why Goodwill has such a major impact in the communities that they're a part of 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 is because Goodwills in our history have always been market driven. It really is just that simple. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 If you don't let that happen, then you're not around for the next day. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]Gibbons says, with a total workforce of more than a 110,000 people, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Goodwill employees between 7 and 8,000 people with disabilities, whose pay, according to the 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Fair Labor Standards act, can be below minimum wage. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 He says, Goodwill gives people with the most severe disabiliies an opportunity to work, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 an opportunity they would not otherwise have. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 He says that many of the people who make less than minimum wage, the experience of work is 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 more important than the pay they get. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's typically not about their livelyhood, it's about their fullfilment, it's about being a part of something, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and it's probably a small part of their overall program. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But for Harold and Sheila Leigland, Gibbons words sound out of step with their complaints. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 They say, they do need the money and they could be productive in their own right with the right job. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 A job better suited to their abilities. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Sheila Leigland:[br]I thought that it would be a really good thing if I could answer the phone at the plant, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and take messages and deliver messages, but that was poo-pooed. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 ???:[br]It's the obligation of management to figure out how to use people's talents, not the obligation of the worker 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 to fit into some box, that the manager dreams up and says, regardless of your disability, this is your job, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and if you're not any good at it, that's your fault not mine. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]And is that what you feel some of these Goodwills operate? 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 ???:[br]It is exactly how they operate. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Sheila Leigland:[br]It's a question of being able to be treated like a first class citzen in this country, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and have the rights of other people to work to obtain the things they need, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and to be the people that they can be. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 It's a civil rights issue for me. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Brian Williams:[br]Hmm, Harry Smith here with us. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 You said you set out just to shed light on this, and some of this just don't seem right. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]Yeah, this is a conversation that has been going on in this community for some time now, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 and we wanted to, maybe, make the conversation a little bit bigger. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 And on some levels it's so black and white on all the levels, it certainly is grey, 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 if you're the family member of a disabled person who finds 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 some way to get more self-meaning in their life by being able to get a job in a sheltered workshop 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 that may be really profound and maybe a life changing, and life enhancing experience. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 But, for these disabled advocates, they say that model is out of date. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 That goes back to a different time in our country, and it's time to get into the 21st century. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Brian Williams:[br]Powerful story well told. Thank you pal. 9:59:59.000,9:59:59.000 Harry Smith:[br]Thanks for the opportunity.