[Script Info] Title: [Events] Format: Layer, Start, End, Style, Name, MarginL, MarginR, MarginV, Effect, Text Dialogue: 0,0:00:00.00,0:00:04.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(piano playing) Dialogue: 0,0:00:04.78,0:00:08.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: We're looking at one of the single canvases from a series of canvases Dialogue: 0,0:00:08.78,0:00:12.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of the Campbell Soup Cans by Andy Warhol from 1962 Dialogue: 0,0:00:12.17,0:00:13.79,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,at the Museum of Modern Art. Dialogue: 0,0:00:13.79,0:00:16.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And one of the really important questions that comes up about, Dialogue: 0,0:00:16.72,0:00:21.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,especially modern art, is well, why is this art? Dialogue: 0,0:00:21.06,0:00:24.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: When you ask me that a bunch of things kind of surface in my brain. Dialogue: 0,0:00:24.96,0:00:28.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It does evoke something in me so I'm inclined to say yes, Dialogue: 0,0:00:28.36,0:00:30.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but then there's a bunch of other things that say well, Dialogue: 0,0:00:30.42,0:00:32.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,if I didn't see this in a museum and if I just saw this Dialogue: 0,0:00:32.75,0:00:35.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the marketing department of Campbell's Soup, Dialogue: 0,0:00:35.17,0:00:37.07,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would you be viewing it differently? Dialogue: 0,0:00:37.07,0:00:38.98,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Because it's advertising then.\NSal: Yes. Dialogue: 0,0:00:38.98,0:00:41.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: But in the context of the museum or in the context Dialogue: 0,0:00:41.42,0:00:44.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,of Andy Warhol's studio, it's not quite advertising, right? Dialogue: 0,0:00:44.88,0:00:47.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: Even if it's the exact same thing.\NSteven: Yeah. Dialogue: 0,0:00:47.55,0:00:50.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: And the idea here is by putting it in the museum Dialogue: 0,0:00:50.34,0:00:52.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's saying look at this in a different way. Dialogue: 0,0:00:52.29,0:00:54.75,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Well that's right, it really does relocate it, Dialogue: 0,0:00:54.75,0:00:57.84,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it does change the meaning, it does transform it, Dialogue: 0,0:00:57.84,0:01:00.40,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and that's really one of the central ideas of modern art Dialogue: 0,0:01:00.40,0:01:03.13,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is that you can take something that's not necessarily based Dialogue: 0,0:01:03.13,0:01:05.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in technical skill, because I don't think you would say Dialogue: 0,0:01:05.87,0:01:08.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that this is beautifully rendered.\NSal: Right. Dialogue: 0,0:01:08.08,0:01:11.42,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: But it relocates it and makes us think about it in a different way. Dialogue: 0,0:01:11.42,0:01:14.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: And so, I guess he would get credit for taking something Dialogue: 0,0:01:14.61,0:01:19.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was very, almost mundane, something you see in everyone's cupboard, Dialogue: 0,0:01:19.12,0:01:23.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and making it a focal point like you should pay attention to this thing. Dialogue: 0,0:01:23.62,0:01:26.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: I think that's exactly right and I think that he's doing it Dialogue: 0,0:01:26.69,0:01:31.03,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,about a subject that was about as low a subject as one could go. Dialogue: 0,0:01:31.03,0:01:34.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean cheap advertising art was something that was so far away Dialogue: 0,0:01:34.36,0:01:38.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,from fine art from the great masters and then to focus on something Dialogue: 0,0:01:38.87,0:01:44.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as lowly as a can of soup, and cream of chicken no less, right? (laughs) Dialogue: 0,0:01:44.31,0:01:47.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: A lot of it is, if he did it 50 years earlier, Dialogue: 0,0:01:47.89,0:01:49.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people would have thought this guy's a quack Dialogue: 0,0:01:49.78,0:01:52.61,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and if he did it now they'd think he was just derivative and... Dialogue: 0,0:01:52.61,0:01:57.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It was really just that time where people happened to think this was art. Dialogue: 0,0:01:57.41,0:01:59.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: I think that that's right. Dialogue: 0,0:01:59.02,0:02:02.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In 1962, what Warhol is doing is he's saying Dialogue: 0,0:02:02.16,0:02:06.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,what is it about our culture that is really authentic and important? Dialogue: 0,0:02:06.66,0:02:09.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And it was about mass production, it was about factories. Dialogue: 0,0:02:09.49,0:02:13.08,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He in a sense said let's not be looking at nature Dialogue: 0,0:02:13.08,0:02:16.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,as if we were still an agrarian culture, we're now an industrial culture. Dialogue: 0,0:02:16.95,0:02:19.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What is the stuff of our visual world now? Dialogue: 0,0:02:19.87,0:02:21.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: I think I'm 80 percent there. Dialogue: 0,0:02:21.43,0:02:24.90,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I remember in college there was a student run art exhibit Dialogue: 0,0:02:24.90,0:02:28.68,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and as a prank a student actually put a little podium there Dialogue: 0,0:02:28.68,0:02:30.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and put his lunch tray. Dialogue: 0,0:02:30.48,0:02:33.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He put a little placard next to it, you know, lunch tray on Saturday Dialogue: 0,0:02:33.38,0:02:34.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or something is what he called it. Dialogue: 0,0:02:34.95,0:02:37.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So he did it as a prank and everyone thought it was really funny Dialogue: 0,0:02:37.06,0:02:40.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but to some degree it's kind of a sign that maybe what he did was art. Dialogue: 0,0:02:40.55,0:02:42.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Well I think that's why it was funny Dialogue: 0,0:02:42.23,0:02:43.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because it was so close, right? Dialogue: 0,0:02:43.49,0:02:45.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: And to some degree when someone took a lunch tray Dialogue: 0,0:02:45.64,0:02:49.04,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and gave it the proper lighting and gave it a podium to look at it Dialogue: 0,0:02:49.04,0:02:51.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and wrote a whole description about it, I did view the lunch tray Dialogue: 0,0:02:51.74,0:02:52.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in a different way. Dialogue: 0,0:02:52.87,0:02:54.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That's kind of the same idea, that something Dialogue: 0,0:02:54.37,0:02:56.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that's such a mundane thing but you use it everyday. Dialogue: 0,0:02:56.71,0:02:58.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I mean, what would you say to that? Dialogue: 0,0:02:58.78,0:03:00.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Was that a prank or was that art? Dialogue: 0,0:03:00.49,0:03:02.17,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: I think it is a prank but it's also very close Dialogue: 0,0:03:02.17,0:03:04.88,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to some important art that had been made earlier in the century. Dialogue: 0,0:03:04.88,0:03:08.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He had license to do that because of somebody named Marcel Duchamp. Dialogue: 0,0:03:08.22,0:03:11.69,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In fact, Warhol had in a sense the same kind of license Dialogue: 0,0:03:11.69,0:03:15.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to not focus on the making of something, not focus on the brushwork, Dialogue: 0,0:03:15.74,0:03:18.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,not focus on the composition, not focus on the color, Dialogue: 0,0:03:18.56,0:03:21.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but focus on the refocusing of ideas. Dialogue: 0,0:03:21.82,0:03:25.41,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: And the reason why we talk about Warhol or Duchamp Dialogue: 0,0:03:25.41,0:03:27.71,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or any of these people is that, as you said, Dialogue: 0,0:03:27.71,0:03:29.64,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,it's not that they did something technically profound. Dialogue: 0,0:03:29.64,0:03:32.24,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Obviously Campbell Soup's marketing department had already done Dialogue: 0,0:03:32.24,0:03:37.45,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,something as equally as profound, it's more that they were the people Dialogue: 0,0:03:37.45,0:03:41.16,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,who looked at the world in a slightly different way and highlighted that. Dialogue: 0,0:03:41.16,0:03:42.49,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Well I think that that's right. Dialogue: 0,0:03:42.49,0:03:46.66,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Warhol is also very consciously working towards Dialogue: 0,0:03:46.66,0:03:49.70,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,asking the same questions that the prankster at your school was asking. Dialogue: 0,0:03:49.70,0:03:52.60,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He's saying can this be art? Dialogue: 0,0:03:52.60,0:03:54.20,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And in fact he's really pushing it. Dialogue: 0,0:03:54.20,0:03:55.91,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Look at the painting closely for a moment. Dialogue: 0,0:03:55.91,0:03:58.51,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,This is one of the last paintings that he's actually painted. Dialogue: 0,0:03:58.51,0:04:01.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,He's really defined the calligraphy of this Campbell's, Dialogue: 0,0:04:01.85,0:04:05.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,he's really sort of rendered the reflection of the tin at the top. Dialogue: 0,0:04:05.74,0:04:08.83,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But then he stopped and he said, I don't want to paint the fleur de lis. Dialogue: 0,0:04:08.83,0:04:11.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,You see those little fleur de lis down at the bottom. Dialogue: 0,0:04:11.54,0:04:12.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I don't want to paint those. Dialogue: 0,0:04:12.81,0:04:14.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,So he actually had a little rubber stamp made of them Dialogue: 0,0:04:14.54,0:04:17.67,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and actually sort of placed them down mechanically. Dialogue: 0,0:04:17.67,0:04:19.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What does that mean for an artist then, Dialogue: 0,0:04:19.55,0:04:21.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,to say I don't even want to bother to paint these? Dialogue: 0,0:04:21.62,0:04:24.81,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I'm just going to find a mechanical process to make this easier. Dialogue: 0,0:04:24.81,0:04:26.86,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Warhol is doing something I think which is important Dialogue: 0,0:04:26.86,0:04:29.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which is reflecting the way that we manufacture, Dialogue: 0,0:04:29.43,0:04:31.73,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,the way that we construct our world. Dialogue: 0,0:04:31.73,0:04:35.34,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Think about the things that we surround ourselves with, Dialogue: 0,0:04:35.34,0:04:37.78,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,almost everything was made in a factory. Dialogue: 0,0:04:37.78,0:04:40.21,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Almost nothing is singular in the world anymore. Dialogue: 0,0:04:40.21,0:04:43.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It's not a world that we would normally find beautiful. Dialogue: 0,0:04:43.23,0:04:45.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: I don't know, sometimes I feel and correct me if I'm wrong, Dialogue: 0,0:04:45.56,0:04:49.58,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that a decision was made that Warhol was interesting or great Dialogue: 0,0:04:49.58,0:04:53.96,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and then people will interpret his stuff to justify his greatness. Dialogue: 0,0:04:53.96,0:04:58.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,That oh look, he used a printer instead of drawing it Dialogue: 0,0:04:58.26,0:05:01.85,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,which shows that he was reflecting the industrial or whatever, Dialogue: 0,0:05:01.85,0:05:04.26,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but if he had done it the other way, if he had hand drawn it Dialogue: 0,0:05:04.26,0:05:08.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,or hand drawn it with his elbow you know, or finger painted it or something Dialogue: 0,0:05:08.00,0:05:10.22,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,people would say oh isn't this tremendous because we normally Dialogue: 0,0:05:10.22,0:05:13.00,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,would see this thing printed by a machine and now he did it with his hands. Dialogue: 0,0:05:13.00,0:05:16.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,How much do you think that is the case or am I just being cynical? Dialogue: 0,0:05:16.56,0:05:20.72,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Well no, I think that there's value in a certain degree of cynicism Dialogue: 0,0:05:20.72,0:05:24.52,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and I think that in some ways what we're really talking about here Dialogue: 0,0:05:24.52,0:05:26.56,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,is what does it mean to be an avant-garde artist? Dialogue: 0,0:05:26.56,0:05:29.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,What does it mean to sort of change the language of art Dialogue: 0,0:05:29.31,0:05:33.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and to try to find ways that art relates to our historical moment Dialogue: 0,0:05:33.89,0:05:36.29,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in some really direct and authentic way? Dialogue: 0,0:05:36.29,0:05:38.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: And maybe it's easy for me to say this because Dialogue: 0,0:05:38.43,0:05:43.06,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I remember looking at this when I took 5th grade art class, Dialogue: 0,0:05:43.06,0:05:47.89,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Andy Warhol and all of that, so now it seems almost not that unique Dialogue: 0,0:05:47.89,0:05:51.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,but in '62 what I'm hearing is that Warhol was really noteworthy Dialogue: 0,0:05:51.10,0:05:53.39,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,because he really did push people's thinking. Dialogue: 0,0:05:53.39,0:05:58.11,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: I think that Warhol was looking for, in 1962, a kind of subject matter Dialogue: 0,0:05:58.11,0:06:02.55,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that was completely outside of the scope of that we could consider fine art. Dialogue: 0,0:06:02.55,0:06:04.48,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,One of his contemporaries, Roy Lichtenstein, Dialogue: 0,0:06:04.48,0:06:06.54,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,was asked what pop art was and he said, Dialogue: 0,0:06:06.54,0:06:10.09,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"Well we were looking for subject matter that was so despicable, Dialogue: 0,0:06:10.09,0:06:14.10,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,"that was so low, that nobody could possibly believe that it was really art." Dialogue: 0,0:06:14.10,0:06:16.12,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think you're right, I think now we look at it Dialogue: 0,0:06:16.12,0:06:20.25,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,and it's so much a part of our visual culture that we immediately accept it. Dialogue: 0,0:06:20.25,0:06:22.95,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,But I think that it's really interesting to retrieve Dialogue: 0,0:06:22.95,0:06:25.62,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,just how shocking and radical that was. Dialogue: 0,0:06:25.62,0:06:26.87,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: This is fascinating. Dialogue: 0,0:06:26.87,0:06:29.31,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,It seems like there's a lot of potential there, Dialogue: 0,0:06:29.31,0:06:32.36,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that stuff that's pseudo-art made for other purposes, Dialogue: 0,0:06:32.36,0:06:35.82,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,for commercial purposes but if you kind of shine a light on it, Dialogue: 0,0:06:35.82,0:06:39.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,in the way that a light has been shone on this, that it does... Dialogue: 0,0:06:39.43,0:06:43.18,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,In your mind would that cross the barrier into being art? Dialogue: 0,0:06:43.18,0:06:45.37,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Steven: Well I think that, you mentioned before, Dialogue: 0,0:06:45.37,0:06:48.43,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,that if somebody was doing this now it would feel really derivative. Dialogue: 0,0:06:48.43,0:06:49.74,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,And I think that that's right. Dialogue: 0,0:06:49.74,0:06:54.38,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,I think it underscores just how hard it is to find in our culture now, Dialogue: 0,0:06:54.38,0:06:57.32,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,ways of making us see the world in new ways. Dialogue: 0,0:06:57.32,0:06:59.02,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,Sal: Fascinating. Dialogue: 0,0:06:59.02,0:07:06.23,Default,,0000,0000,0000,,(piano playing)