0:00:25.438,0:00:26.920 SON: Growing up as a child 0:00:26.920,0:00:31.320 of Sally Mann was not easy at all. 0:00:31.320,0:00:35.160 Anyone who's as driven as Sally Mann is 0:00:35.160,0:00:37.694 is going to be an intense mother. 0:00:40.680,0:00:41.560 She's difficult, 0:00:41.560,0:00:44.120 and for as much as I get annoyed 0:00:44.120,0:00:45.960 and struggle against it and fight it, 0:00:45.960,0:00:47.200 I love it at the same time, 0:00:47.200,0:00:50.115 so it's such a Yin and a Yang. 0:00:59.920,0:01:01.835 MANN: God, it does look like the Shroud of Turin 0:01:01.835,0:01:02.440 or something. 0:01:02.440,0:01:04.109 It looks so ponderous – 0:01:05.073,0:01:07.846 whereas this looks so ephemeral. 0:01:09.680,0:01:11.504 God, they're just two different pictures. 0:01:15.360,0:01:17.160 Some pictures just have to be a certain way, 0:01:17.160,0:01:22.267 but this doesn't seem to cry [br]out to be either light or dark. 0:01:23.960,0:01:26.540 Which just makes my job harder, actually. 0:01:27.457,0:01:29.200 WOMAN:: Every time she looks at something, 0:01:29.200,0:01:31.200 she's looking at it as an artist. 0:01:31.200,0:01:33.280 It's so much of her energy. 0:01:33.280,0:01:39.200 And so I think we lost, to some extent, a mother, 0:01:39.200,0:01:42.440 but we gained a friend, [br]and an artistic accomplice, 0:01:42.440,0:01:44.872 and something entirely different. 0:01:47.905,0:01:52.400 MAN: it's a tremendous effort that goes into it. 0:01:52.400,0:01:56.200 Sally will have a pile of, what [br]I think are beautiful prints, 0:01:56.200,0:01:57.520 and those are the rejects, 0:01:57.520,0:01:59.840 and I'm sitting here going, god. 0:02:07.160,0:02:08.737 This is a tough one. 0:02:13.040,0:02:16.160 What I like about these dog [br]bones is their ambiguity. 0:02:17.195,0:02:18.920 It takes you a while to figure out what they are, 0:02:18.920,0:02:20.800 or maybe you don't figure it out. 0:02:21.680,0:02:23.960 If it doesn't have ambiguity, [br]don't bother to take it. 0:02:23.960,0:02:26.320 I mean, I love that, that aspect of photography, 0:02:26.320,0:02:28.000 the mendacity of photography. 0:02:28.920,0:02:31.320 It's got to have some kind of peculiarity in it 0:02:31.320,0:02:33.210 or it's not interesting to me. 0:02:34.880,0:02:36.277 –Do right. 0:02:38.440,0:02:40.000 –Just stay there. 0:02:40.680,0:02:43.000 If I could be said to have any kind of aesthetic, 0:02:43.000,0:02:45.080 it's sort of a magpie aesthetic, you know. 0:02:45.080,0:02:48.280 I just go around and I pick up whatever's around. 0:02:48.280,0:02:49.772 It's very spontaneous. 0:02:50.760,0:02:52.920 I see a dog bone, I bring it in, 0:02:52.920,0:02:54.560 I take a picture, I like the picture. 0:02:54.560,0:02:56.880 I took, well, hey, that's a pretty good picture, 0:02:56.880,0:02:58.680 so then I go collect all the other dog bones 0:02:58.680,0:03:01.160 and I bring them in and I [br]take a few more pictures, 0:03:01.160,0:03:02.360 and then I put them on the wall, 0:03:02.360,0:03:03.840 And then before long, the gallery says, 0:03:03.840,0:03:05.160 "Well, let's do a show of dog bones." 0:03:05.160,0:03:06.760 So we do a show of dog bones, 0:03:06.760,0:03:09.660 and then some, like, cynical post-modern critic 0:03:09.660,0:03:11.040 will come along and say, 0:03:11.040,0:03:12.920 "Oh, my god, look at the show of dog bones, 0:03:12.920,0:03:14.760 what do you suppose it means?" 0:03:14.760,0:03:20.120 And that's, ohh! That's a [br]good dog. Sure, go get it. 0:03:20.120,0:03:21.480 These dog bones are just making art 0:03:21.480,0:03:23.080 the way art should be made, I think, 0:03:23.080,0:03:25.979 without any overarching reference. 0:03:26.520,0:03:29.120 Just for fun, if you can imagine that, 0:03:29.120,0:03:32.134 art for fun, sometimes it is fun. 0:03:41.240,0:03:44.397 There's a lot of dispute about [br]the proper way to hold this glass. 0:03:52.298,0:03:55.000 I learned how to do this from a master, 0:03:55.000,0:03:56.800 he's just a genius teacher, 0:03:56.800,0:03:58.800 and he really knows wet plate collodion. 0:03:58.800,0:03:59.720 his name's Mark Osterman. 0:04:05.680,0:04:08.040 It's a sort of cranky process. 0:04:08.040,0:04:12.004 It doesn't allow for much sloppy technique. 0:04:14.120,0:04:16.000 It's hard to get these chemicals. 0:04:16.000,0:04:17.840 They're all, you know, controlled. 0:04:17.840,0:04:21.520 Collodion and ether, and of course, grain alcohol 0:04:21.520,0:04:23.134 you can get, but you can't get it in virginia. 0:04:26.560,0:04:29.520 Then you take it to the silver nitrate. 0:04:29.520,0:04:31.920 –Whoa, there's a bug in here. 0:04:31.920,0:04:34.400 And for reasons that escape me completely, 0:04:34.400,0:04:39.005 the silver nitrate sticks to the [br]collodion and ether and coats it. 0:04:42.720,0:04:45.080 My plates are horribly flawed. 0:04:45.080,0:04:46.520 but, of course, it's the flaws I like, 0:04:46.520,0:04:47.680 so you pray. 0:04:47.680,0:04:49.080 In your prayer, you pray, 0:04:49.080,0:04:50.920 please don't let me screw [br]it up, but just screw it up 0:04:50.920,0:04:53.479 a little bit, just enough to make it interesting. 0:05:02.240,0:05:06.160 It's so stupid – I have to use [br]one hand to hold my shutter shut, 0:05:06.160,0:05:09.404 I have to use a head to [br]keep the camera from moving. 0:05:11.920,0:05:14.680 There's got to be an easier way. 0:05:14.680,0:05:15.990 All right, well, what do you think? 0:05:18.600,0:05:20.763 30 seconds, I'd say. 0:05:25.043,0:05:29.040 Actually, I'm surprised it took me [br]this long to get to this process. 0:05:29.040,0:05:35.538 Because I was so immersed in that whole [br]glass plate, 19th-century aesthetic. 0:05:46.473,0:05:50.000 –I like that one, there's [br]Jenna being the weirdo again. 0:05:50.000,0:05:51.240 –Sally: Oh, without the splinter? 0:05:51.240,0:05:55.280 –Daughter: she's so normal-looking [br]now, no one would know that she was... 0:05:55.280,0:05:58.680 She was just beautiful, [br]and she looked like someone 0:05:58.680,0:06:00.960 that stepped out of the wrong century. 0:06:00.960,0:06:03.743 –Yeah, great little model, though. 0:06:03.743,0:06:06.180 –Daughter: The most incredible little girl. 0:06:06.180,0:06:08.440 –Sally: She could put on a [br]pout like nobody's business. 0:06:08.440,0:06:10.360 –Daughter: She could throw a [br]fit like nobody's business. 0:06:10.360,0:06:12.760 –Sally: Well, that's true, too. 0:06:12.760,0:06:17.120 The way I approach photography, [br]it's very spontaneous. 0:06:17.120,0:06:17.920 The children were there, 0:06:17.920,0:06:19.320 so I took pictures of my children. 0:06:19.320,0:06:22.400 It's not that I'm interested [br]in children that much, 0:06:22.400,0:06:24.780 or photographing them, it's [br]just that they were there. 0:06:24.780,0:06:28.080 Daughter: She would call [br]us her models, but usually 0:06:28.080,0:06:30.360 it was just something where she'd say "Freeze," 0:06:30.360,0:06:31.760 and we'd stop what we were doing. 0:06:31.760,0:06:33.520 Sometimes she'd make some small alteration, 0:06:33.520,0:06:35.374 but that was all. 0:06:39.560,0:06:41.520 The one where my hair is on my ribs, 0:06:41.520,0:06:42.880 I remember that I had to keep going back 0:06:42.880,0:06:44.280 and wetting my hair, 0:06:44.280,0:06:46.400 because it would dry and then slip, so... 0:06:46.400,0:06:47.360 that's the only thing that I remember. 0:06:47.360,0:06:47.920 –Sally: do you remember how 0:06:47.920,0:06:51.560 many times we took that picture?[br]–Daughter: Yes, we… I remember. 0:06:51.560,0:06:54.920 –Sally: That was a production, because [br]someone had to sit behind you in the river 0:06:54.920,0:06:57.480 and thwack the river with the canoe 0:06:57.480,0:06:59.400 to make those little ripples that are behind you. 0:06:59.400,0:07:00.140 –Man: that's what I was doing. 0:07:00.140,0:07:01.640 –Sally: yeah, you were thwacking the river, 0:07:01.640,0:07:03.480 and she was standing there keeping her hair 0:07:03.480,0:07:05.360 from falling off her ribs. 0:07:05.360,0:07:08.960 And still maintaining a beatific expression. 0:07:08.960,0:07:10.841 That was a really hard picture to take. 0:07:12.040,0:07:15.200 I wanted those family pictures to look effortless. 0:07:15.200,0:07:17.648 I wanted them to look like snapshots. 0:07:18.800,0:07:21.720 There is something about [br]the whole 8 x 10 business. 0:07:21.720,0:07:23.720 The sort of reverence that goes along with it, 0:07:23.720,0:07:26.840 that you have to, you have to pay your dues 0:07:26.840,0:07:28.840 to the photo gods, I guess. 0:07:28.840,0:07:31.760 Son: You know, my mother's vision, 0:07:31.760,0:07:34.800 she had an idea, it was almost like a dream. 0:07:34.800,0:07:37.880 I think she has a dream picture, 0:07:37.880,0:07:41.040 and she just gradually, like, refines it 0:07:41.040,0:07:44.080 until it's exactly what she's looking for. 0:07:44.080,0:07:47.120 It took like five separate trips out here, 0:07:47.120,0:07:50.680 and taking, probably, looked [br]like 15 to 20 pictures 0:07:50.680,0:07:52.520 every single time. 0:07:52.520,0:07:54.680 She was looking, every time [br]she took a picture of me, 0:07:54.680,0:07:56.161 I knew she was looking for that 0:07:57.960,0:08:00.840 intensity that I feel my sisters and I have, 0:08:00.840,0:08:01.520 My mother has – 0:08:01.520,0:08:04.920 it's just like this intensity, Mann intensity, 0:08:04.920,0:08:08.705 I don't know what it is, [br]it plagues me to this day. 0:08:11.174,0:08:12.600 Sally: it was my father who gave me 0:08:12.600,0:08:16.219 almost all my cameras, the [br]first half-dozen, I guess. 0:08:17.160,0:08:21.240 He was an atheist who practiced 0:08:21.240,0:08:24.120 compassionate medicine, 60 hours a week. 0:08:24.120,0:08:26.080 He was enough of a socialist to believe 0:08:26.080,0:08:29.080 you shouldn't have to pay for it if you couldn't. 0:08:29.080,0:08:30.760 But he was also an art collector, 0:08:30.760,0:08:33.040 I mean, he bought Kandinsky in the '30s, 0:08:33.040,0:08:34.720 and Twombly in the '50s. 0:08:34.720,0:08:41.446 And he was quite an unusual [br]man, and hell to live up to. 0:08:43.280,0:08:45.000 But then, of course, my mother... 0:08:45.734,0:08:48.328 in all different kinds of poses here. 0:08:50.280,0:08:54.200 You couldn't have two more disparate backgrounds. 0:08:54.200,0:08:59.120 My mother with this, like, blue-blood New England, 0:08:59.120,0:09:02.935 and my father sort of a renegade Texan. 0:09:04.720,0:09:06.410 But I was the third child. 0:09:07.280,0:09:08.186 Two older brothers. 0:09:09.080,0:09:10.800 And I sort of think by the time I came along, 0:09:10.800,0:09:12.440 everyone was tired of raising children. 0:09:12.440,0:09:14.000 It wasn't that they neglected me, 0:09:14.000,0:09:15.920 it was a benign neglect, I guess. 0:09:15.920,0:09:17.360 I know I never wore clothes. 0:09:17.360,0:09:19.680 They're all, every picture of me is naked. 0:09:19.680,0:09:22.440 And they had 12 boxers, so I was always 0:09:22.440,0:09:24.640 surrounded by a pack of dogs. 0:09:24.640,0:09:27.520 I just ran wild for the first [br]seven years of my life – 0:09:27.520,0:09:28.480 and then went to school, 0:09:28.480,0:09:30.000 and didn't take to it too kindly, 0:09:31.840,0:09:33.798 but I was eventually civilized. 0:09:37.560,0:09:40.000 I guess that's a little how I raised my own kids. 0:09:40.000,0:09:42.600 And a little why I was so nonplussed 0:09:42.600,0:09:44.280 when people were so surprised 0:09:44.280,0:09:47.120 to see the pictures of my children without shirts 0:09:47.120,0:09:50.640 and pants, and running wild, too. 0:09:50.640,0:09:54.127 It seemed like a perfectly [br]normal thing to do, to me. 0:09:57.348,0:09:59.320 Daughter: I don't think I've [br]ever seen this one before. 0:10:04.560,0:10:06.680 See, that's an example, [br]you see your hand in there? 0:10:06.680,0:10:08.862 You see how your gesture is? 0:10:09.920,0:10:12.680 You didn't have that clunky child thing. 0:10:12.680,0:10:17.525 You were so svelte and sylph-like. 0:10:22.040,0:10:23.440 Daughter: Everyone looks at these pictures, 0:10:23.440,0:10:26.240 and it's like, you must have [br]had the most amazing childhood. 0:10:26.240,0:10:27.360 We did. 0:10:27.360,0:10:30.911 I was literally a water nymph [br]until I was 12, I think. 0:10:32.675,0:10:34.720 It wasn't magical at the [br]time, but looking back on it, 0:10:34.720,0:10:35.790 it's kind of like... 0:10:38.000,0:10:41.200 But then, you know, she said that all the pictures 0:10:41.200,0:10:42.528 started looking like fashion ads. 0:10:43.680,0:10:46.120 So, she had to do something else. 0:10:49.412,0:10:50.440 Son: I love the landscapes, 0:10:50.440,0:10:51.640 I don't have any problem with them. 0:10:51.640,0:10:53.760 I was ready to stop getting – 0:10:53.760,0:10:54.560 taking pictures. 0:10:54.560,0:10:57.030 I was like, ahh, no more taking pictures. 0:10:59.969,0:11:01.800 Daughter: I argue that the [br]landscapes are going to be 0:11:01.800,0:11:04.200 the ones that she's going to be remembered for. 0:11:04.200,0:11:06.880 In the end, that's going to be what's going to be 0:11:06.880,0:11:09.360 the most lasting body of work. 0:11:09.360,0:11:12.700 I don't think so, I think [br]immediate family was, actually. 0:11:12.700,0:11:15.142 The pictures of us were, actually. 0:11:15.142,0:11:17.440 No, I'm just playing. 0:11:17.440,0:11:19.420 Because these are the most [br]interesting subject matter. 0:11:19.420,0:11:21.120 Sally: Well, certainly. 0:11:21.120,0:11:25.680 But these have the better skill. 0:11:25.680,0:11:28.280 It's funny, 'cause mom's so... 0:11:28.280,0:11:29.240 You have to leave, mom. 0:11:31.840,0:11:34.760 I feel stupid talking about [br]her if she's in the room. 0:11:34.760,0:11:39.760 She's, she was raised with no sense of God 0:11:39.760,0:11:42.720 in such an atheistic family. 0:11:42.720,0:11:48.240 And you'll never hear her say [br]anything spiritual or religious. 0:11:48.240,0:11:49.840 Spiritual, maybe. 0:11:49.840,0:11:51.960 Even then, she's like, I don't [br]want to get too touchy-feely. 0:11:51.960,0:11:54.160 She's really against that stuff. 0:11:54.160,0:11:59.582 But I think it's her bible, it's her expression [br]of her spirituality that she can't say 0:11:59.746,0:12:01.619 without feeling stupid. 0:12:02.560,0:12:04.240 Maybe it's the same thing with immediate family, 0:12:04.240,0:12:06.680 sort of a maternal understanding, maternal love, 0:12:06.680,0:12:09.501 that's so hard to express, so she took pictures. 0:12:17.655,0:12:19.120 Son: I know my mother loves the South, 0:12:19.120,0:12:21.360 like there's something just incredible 0:12:21.360,0:12:24.680 about places that don't have malls, 0:12:25.920,0:12:27.600 and have like a real sense of history. 0:12:27.600,0:12:33.217 And I feel like, especially in the United [br]States, like that is being destroyed so quickly. 0:12:39.331,0:12:42.081 Sally: Of course, I can't see [br]anymore because I'm blind. 0:12:42.880,0:12:44.640 Do you have your reading glasses, Larry? 0:12:44.640,0:12:48.400 Son: Dad is just as much a part of Mom, 0:12:48.400,0:12:50.880 their relationship is so much tied with the land, 0:12:50.880,0:12:54.680 and I feel like they just are [br]really aware of how important 0:12:54.680,0:12:58.132 maintaining a sense of [br]beauty in what surrounds you. 0:13:00.000,0:13:01.120 We can make a print of it. 0:13:01.120,0:13:08.360 Man: I just love the feel of the large images. 0:13:08.360,0:13:11.528 Often I'll be there when the image is being made. 0:13:13.080,0:13:14.520 It's just part of a continuum. 0:13:15.640,0:13:18.540 Basically, it's basically pretty good. 0:13:18.540,0:13:20.959 It looks nice against the black. 0:13:23.240,0:13:27.320 You know, you feel like you're [br]intimately involved in the whole process, 0:13:27.320,0:13:32.040 yet once that final image hits the [br]wall, it's got a life of its own. 0:13:32.040,0:13:39.986 It's really, it's a wonderful [br]experience altogether. 0:13:47.150,0:13:49.132 Sally: ah![br]Just a little lighter. 0:13:49.132,0:13:57.234 [singing] Over the miles...