0:00:25.334,0:00:27.909 DAVID GOLDBLATT: The camera is a very strange instrument. 0:00:30.322,0:00:33.667 It demands first of all, that you see coherently, 0:00:34.899,0:00:41.161 it makes it possible for you to enter into[br]worlds, and places, and associations, 0:00:41.161,0:00:43.975 that would otherwise be very difficult to do. 0:00:54.661,0:00:57.292 Being a photographer is a wonderful thing, really. 0:01:02.070,0:01:03.850 I'm not tied to any place. 0:01:04.831,0:01:06.529 I can go and come as I like. 0:01:10.049,0:01:10.549 It's wonderful. 0:01:14.141,0:01:18.000 My childhood years in Johannesburg were very[br]happy. 0:01:19.450,0:01:21.627 We enjoyed an enormous amount of freedom. 0:01:22.909,0:01:29.850 We would ride our bicycles all over the Randfontein Estates, which was the goldmine around the town, 0:01:30.479,0:01:33.743 and we could explore the mines to a[br]great degree. 0:01:36.207,0:01:42.000 It's a brutal landscape, it's very bare, bleak,[br]we don't have a sea, we don’t have a big river. 0:01:42.457,0:01:46.590 We just had these rather dull and uninteresting spaces. 0:01:48.049,0:01:52.804 I think there was a kind of osmosis taking[br]place in me, 0:01:53.408,0:01:56.509 I became organically related to the place. 0:01:59.626,0:02:04.071 On the one hand, I want to photograph the land. 0:02:05.202,0:02:08.163 Land, in a very broad sense. 0:02:09.153,0:02:15.708 On the other hand, I'm fascinated by our structures[br]as declarations of value. 0:02:21.214,0:02:25.518 I'm too late for this photograph, the trees[br]are already in leaf. 0:02:26.473,0:02:27.404 I’m going to try. 0:02:27.404,0:02:28.143 Let's have a look. 0:02:31.110,0:02:36.918 It seems to me that the style of architecture[br]that is emerging to the north of Johannesburg, 0:02:37.640,0:02:40.587 is a kind of an aggressive materialism. 0:02:47.149,0:02:53.970 In this country, because of the nakedness,[br]almost, of the struggles that took place between 0:02:53.970,0:02:55.400 black and white, 0:02:55.400,0:03:02.391 the structures that emerged were amazingly[br]clear demonstrations of value systems. 0:03:03.572,0:03:07.882 White Afrikaner Protestant churches are those[br]that I think of particularly. 0:03:09.341,0:03:13.251 Their churches had these huge windows and[br]this mega phonic structure, 0:03:14.168,0:03:20.157 come the 1970s the forces of liberation are[br]coming down to South Africa, 0:03:20.459,0:03:23.830 increasingly impinging on Afrikaners. 0:03:25.188,0:03:28.250 So, their new churches become defensive. 0:03:29.884,0:03:33.464 There are very few of them built with piercings[br]in the outer walls. 0:03:35.098,0:03:40.714 Public structures become clear manifestations[br]to self-image. 0:03:45.079,0:03:51.129 Look at this, look at this, huge building,[br]but at least this has got a certain amount 0:03:51.129,0:03:53.240 of movement. 0:04:01.310,0:04:02.952 That’s a Hasselblad. 0:04:04.109,0:04:09.126 Famous, very expensive, beautifully built box. 0:04:10.459,0:04:16.380 My brother Dan would come back from somewhere[br]in the world and bring little miniature cameras. 0:04:17.235,0:04:21.450 He brought back from one of his voyages a[br]Contax camera. 0:04:21.450,0:04:24.809 The Contax was the Zeiss equivalent of the[br]Leica. 0:04:24.809,0:04:29.770 It was a great camera, but this particular[br]one had been severely damaged. 0:04:29.770,0:04:33.510 I don't know what its history was during the[br]war, but when it eventually reached Randfontein, 0:04:33.510,0:04:38.376 it was a very sick camera, but I tried to[br]do some photography with it. 0:04:39.709,0:04:45.879 When I matriculated in '48, I certainly had[br]a strong wish to become a magazine photographer. 0:04:46.507,0:04:51.484 “Life” and “Look from America,” “Picture[br]Post” from England were the 0:04:51.484,0:04:54.100 window on the world for millions. 0:04:55.458,0:05:04.600 In 1952, I think it was, the apartheid government[br]had begun to put its ideology in place and 0:05:04.600,0:05:10.620 one of the first steps was to separate the[br]races in public amenities. 0:05:12.000,0:05:19.340 I did a short strip of film of a black man[br]going up and then being turned back by a black policeman. 0:05:19.692,0:05:24.660 He had been accustomed to taking that route[br]into the Johannesburg railway station and 0:05:24.660,0:05:26.620 suddenly he was not allowed to. 0:05:26.620,0:05:31.759 So I sent a strip of those photographs to[br]“Picture Post” to the editor. 0:05:31.759,0:05:33.477 I was politely rejected. 0:05:36.620,0:05:42.440 I tried to do a magazine story about the men[br]who worked on top of the mine dumps around 0:05:42.440,0:05:43.776 our town. 0:05:45.000,0:05:49.910 These men worked right through the year, every[br]day and night, 0:05:49.910,0:05:55.251 no matter what the conditions, dealing with[br]the waste of the milling operation. 0:05:56.709,0:06:00.000 We were subjecting these men to a terrible[br]existence. 0:06:01.240,0:06:03.878 It is freezing cold on the top of those dumps[br]in winter. 0:06:07.498,0:06:08.450 Here's an old dump. 0:06:09.707,0:06:13.111 It's been covered in grass to keep down the dust. 0:06:16.430,0:06:25.050 Black miners could not rise beyond the level[br]of what were known as boss boys or team leaders. 0:06:26.458,0:06:28.622 Of course, they were not boys, they were men. 0:06:30.910,0:06:36.138 In order to rise above that level, you had[br]to have a blasting certificate, 0:06:36.440,0:06:41.460 and this was a method that was used by the[br]white trade unions to ensure that 0:06:41.460,0:06:47.374 only whites could go into the upper echelons[br]of the mining hierarchy. 0:06:52.654,0:06:54.900 If one wanted to look at this society, 0:06:54.900,0:07:01.480 you had to grasp the nature of white Afrikaner[br]life and ideology. 0:07:05.000,0:07:13.500 The Afrikaners were descended from the Dutch[br]and French Huguenot, and German, Scotch, early, 0:07:13.500,0:07:15.900 early settlers in this country. 0:07:15.900,0:07:21.430 Small as that group was, they determined a[br]great deal of what happened here. 0:07:21.430,0:07:30.780 For them, their conquest of the tribes that[br]they encountered were guided by God, the ineffable. 0:07:31.459,0:07:38.042 This became something that I had to deal with[br]as I saw it in a way that hadn't been done before. 0:07:40.073,0:07:47.243 During the 1930s, the right wing of Afrikaner[br]movement known as the Ossewabrandwag was anti-Jewish. 0:07:48.449,0:07:51.699 Like many of my fellow Jewish friends, 0:07:51.800,0:07:57.694 I had a fear of Afrikaners from my childhood[br]and yet felt the need to explore this. 0:07:59.353,0:08:01.919 These people really absorbed me. 0:08:02.372,0:08:06.918 They frightened me in their depths of the[br]fear of black people, 0:08:06.918,0:08:10.693 and yet at the same time their ease with them. 0:08:13.660,0:08:18.158 I would be photographing an elderly couple[br]on one of these plots 0:08:18.560,0:08:23.770 and a little black girl would walk into the[br]parlor, sucking her thumb 0:08:23.770,0:08:29.250 and just stand there watching me work and[br]they would not say a word to her. 0:08:29.250,0:08:31.199 They didn't object and tell her to get out. 0:08:31.199,0:08:34.334 It was just accepted that she would come in[br]and do that. 0:08:37.955,0:08:42.425 A common response from potential publishers[br]was “where's the apartheid?” 0:08:43.305,0:08:49.645 To me, it was embedded deep, deep, deep in[br]the grain of those photographs. 0:08:51.053,0:08:56.923 People overseas simply didn't grasp these[br]extraordinary contradictions in our life. 0:08:57.778,0:09:01.408 I was not interested in trying to explain[br]things to them. 0:09:05.330,0:09:07.519 We're heading into the center of Boksburg. 0:09:08.650,0:09:12.860 I photographed here in the winter of ‘79[br]and again in ‘80. 0:09:14.620,0:09:18.200 Instead of traveling the country and photographing[br]whites generally, 0:09:18.200,0:09:23.226 I wanted to concentrate on this one community[br]and regard it as a microcosm of 0:09:23.226,0:09:25.430 white middle class life in South Africa 0:09:25.430,0:09:26.456 and that's what I did. 0:09:28.568,0:09:32.690 This entire town was reserved for whites. 0:09:32.690,0:09:37.841 Black people came here only if they had the[br]right paper, a pass. 0:09:39.651,0:09:44.780 I began to look at these crowds waiting at[br]traffic lights to cross the road and found 0:09:44.780,0:09:48.528 them remarkably exposing of us. 0:09:55.090,0:09:56.790 Corner of Commissioner and Eloff. 0:09:56.790,0:09:58.559 Oh, we must go up one block. 0:10:00.118,0:10:06.708 This picture here was taken from where I'm[br]standing now, of that shop there, 0:10:08.493,0:10:12.000 and I was probably standing here when I took[br]this picture. 0:10:14.620,0:10:20.060 I was excited by this winter light that we[br]have, it’s very sharp and low angled. 0:10:21.493,0:10:27.643 These low buildings were to me, the quintessence[br]of the world that I knew and grew up in. 0:10:28.348,0:10:30.502 There's nothing distinctive about them. 0:10:33.720,0:10:38.300 I don't think there is a single picture in[br]that whole collection in which the subject 0:10:38.300,0:10:39.999 is looking at the camera or me. 0:10:41.860,0:10:44.159 I wanted to disappear from the equation. 0:10:46.497,0:10:52.491 In Soweto and Hillbrow, the photographs were[br]encounters between myself and the subject. 0:10:54.678,0:10:58.990 Instead of trying to photograph life as an[br]ongoing process. 0:10:58.990,0:11:03.159 I elected to photograph people as they were[br]in a formal way. 0:11:05.120,0:11:09.586 I was always insistent that the subject would[br]look at me, not at the camera. 0:11:13.810,0:11:15.250 In doing those portraits., 0:11:15.250,0:11:19.461 I became aware of people's bodies in a very[br]emphatic way. 0:11:20.190,0:11:26.374 Arms, and limbs, breasts, hips, necks, particulars. 0:11:30.824,0:11:34.850 Here is a whole drawer of four by fives. 0:11:36.887,0:11:43.381 On my death, my negatives, my contact prints,[br]and my working prints, would have gone to 0:11:43.381,0:11:44.500 the University of Cape Town 0:11:44.500,0:11:50.596 where they had established an archival facility[br]for this purpose. 0:11:52.306,0:11:57.620 But after the burning of paintings and the[br]burning of some photographs by the students 0:11:57.620,0:12:00.220 in the university art collection, 0:12:00.220,0:12:05.889 the university appointed a committee of academics[br]and students to examine every piece of art 0:12:06.895,0:12:08.329 with a view to deciding 0:12:08.329,0:12:15.490 whether to pulling out or covering up any[br]artwork that they regarded as potentially 0:12:15.490,0:12:17.015 offensive to black students. 0:12:19.554,0:12:28.042 Well, I can't accept that kind of valuation[br]and interference in the freedom of expression. 0:12:29.515,0:12:34.167 If there are pieces of work in the art collection[br]that perhaps make other people uncomfortable, 0:12:34.167,0:12:37.000 then let’s exhibit them, hold debates. 0:12:40.126,0:12:44.250 I regard my work as one thing that I will[br]not allow to be compromised, 0:12:44.250,0:12:46.500 and I compromise every day, 0:12:46.500,0:12:48.480 just by drawing breath in this country. 0:12:50.466,0:12:54.679 But today under a democracy, I refuse to be[br]complicit. 0:12:57.244,0:12:59.061 I canceled my contract. 0:13:00.795,0:13:03.897 And my stuff won't go to the University of[br]Cape Town. 0:13:12.320,0:13:15.189 I don't think I've ever been bored with photography. 0:13:16.949,0:13:19.279 I have sometimes become extremely frustrated 0:13:19.279,0:13:20.681 Ahh [bleeped]. 0:13:20.681,0:13:21.626 Disgusted. 0:13:21.626,0:13:22.279 Look at this. 0:13:22.279,0:13:23.279 Look at this. 0:13:23.279,0:13:25.839 but it's a life absorbing process. 0:13:26.518,0:13:28.649 It absorbs me fully. 0:13:30.560,0:13:35.543 I've changed my mind about photographs 25,[br]30 years after I've taken them. 0:13:37.360,0:13:41.310 My problem is that I don't have 25 or 30 years[br]to make up my mind now. 0:13:42.000,0:13:44.207 I've got to make up my mind much sooner. 0:13:53.610,0:13:56.365 I was doing photographs of the goldmines, 0:13:56.365,0:13:59.377 and I saw a reflection of myself, 0:14:00.332,0:14:04.584 so I just snapped it.