Hello. My name is Erin McCluskey. This is a Wee BSL Blethers video about Deaf model.
You will see I have somebody with me. Could you introduce yourself please?
My name is Margaret McLean.
Marvellous! Do you have a sign name, Margaret?
Just MML.
I’ll call you this sign name today if that’s alright? Okay. So I am going to
interview Margaret about her childhood. Find out what it was like for her growing up,
getting her first job and so on. I’m really looking forward to finding out more.
Margaret, firstly, can I ask what it was like for you growing up?
Well I come from a Deaf family so BSL was used every day at home.
I only have a ran into issues outside of home, with hearing people.
It did make me a bit reluctant to mix.
So growing up things were pretty easy and comfortable in terms of accessible
communication, at home at least?
Easy, yes. Everybody signed every day within my family so there were no issues at all.
So your family were all Deaf then?
Yes.
Parents? Your siblings?
Yes, all Deaf.
And were you all close?
Yes, we were a close family I would say, because of BSL. I was closest to
my father because he would tell me a lot of stuff. I think he was my
role model growing up.
How lovely. Your dad was your role model.
Yes.
He encouraged and supported you growing up?
Yes.
Marvellous. And that’s a perfect link into what I want to ask you about next
because I want to talk about school. When you first went to school, what was it like?
I first went to a local school. One I could walk to from home. I think it was only about
five minutes away. My parents wanted me to go there so I was nearby.
They did not want to send me away to boarding school.
Unfortunately, the focus was very much on speaking and listening so my parents
eventually decided to send me to a school in Glasgow where they used sign language.
Makes sense. So your parents decided to remove you from that local school
because it did not suit you and they had to send you away.
Were you happy at your school in Glasgow?
It was okay. They used sign language there, but the teachers couldn’t really
sign very well. They would speak and throw in a few signs here in there, but not many.
And at that time I guess sign language was very much seen as undesirable, am I right?
Yes. It was a long time ago now and there were very old-fashioned views.
There was no real awareness of the language or its importance.
I think things are very different now of course.
Yes.
So, thinking about school, what was your favourite topic and what did
you really do not like learning about?
I really loved arithmetic. Nobody calls it that anymore. It’s become maths now.
But we used to call it arithmetic.
Oh really! So you were good at that and enjoyed it?
Yes. I loved arithmetic. I was okay at English. The subject I really hated was sewing.
Really! Why?
Yes! I always used to mess it up and get it wrong. I found it really frustrating.
Maybe you lacked confidence in that subject.
I think you’re right.
So you progressed through your schooling and eventually left school. Did you have any
support to help you find a job. Did you go to college or university?
There was nothing really back then. I do remember meeting with the
Careers Advisor and telling them I wanted to become a Teacher of the Deaf.
They told me I could not do that because I was Deaf myself. What a discriminatory attitude!
I decided to ask the social worker about it and told them the same thing,
that I wanted to become a Teacher of the Deaf. They also told me that I could
not do that job and suggested that I become a machinist. I refused and they
said I would have to go to the DHSS in that case.
What is the DHSS?
It’s what’s known as the DWP these days.
Oh I see.
Similar to the job centre now. So I went along, and they suggested I try for office
work, which sounded okay, but it meant I had to go to college. They helped me fill
in the application forms and I sent them off. I soon heard that I’d been
offered a place which was great. I went to college to learn how to be a secretary,
but I found it really difficult because I did not have an interpreter.
How did you get on?
I managed the best I could. I kept asking the girl sat next to me what we were
supposed to be doing. I think she found it a bit frustrating.
She was fed up that I was taking up her time. I tried my best though and
I did get through the course and luckily, straight out to work.
And you got your certificate? Did you go off and work in an office then?
Yes that’s right. The course was a year and then after that I got a job in an office.
I was there for seven years, then I left to start a family.
So when you became pregnant, you left your job and focused on raising your family.
Did you take on any other work after that?
I did a few little jobs, but nothing interesting until I saw an advert for a
BSL role model essentially. At that time, the role was known as an auxiliary.
It’s changed now. I was not successful the first time I applied for one of these roles.
It wasn’t until my third attempt that I finally got a job.
Do you know why you were unsuccessful the first two times you tried?
I don’t know. I think it was because the organisation at that time was maybe not
aware of what BSL was and were not expecting a Deaf person to apply for the role.
The families they wanted someone to work with were hearing, so perhaps they assumed
it would be better to have a hearing person in post. I don’t know that for sure though.
So you were finally successful on your third attempt. What did your work as a
BSL advocate involved?
Well really, I just helped the parents. I taught them sign language.
I supported nursery and primary school and even secondary
school too with sign language.
So you must have had to travel around a lot for your job?
Yes, I travelled all over the place. I had a lot of work to do.
And did you teach sign language as part of your role?
I did, yes.
Did you cover Deaf identity, culture and so on as well?
Yes, I did, but my role was really more focused around supporting the Deaf young person.
For example, I would read a book with them and explain the meaning of particular
words to try and increase their sign vocabulary. I would do the same for numbers.
Sounds like a great job. Okay, let’s move on a little to our connection.
When I was little, you taught me BSL didn’t you Margaret?
I did.
I remember Margaret working with me. She was my role model.
She gave me the most wonderful gift, the gift of British Sign Language.
I feel incredibly lucky to have had the opportunity to learn BSL from Margaret.
Without her, I don’t know what my life would be like now. I don’t think I would
be where I am now. It didn’t just stop with me though. I have been able to share
this beautiful language with my parents too. This makes our family connections so much easier.
So Margaret, you really are my role model. When I was little, you used to come out
to my nursery. I still have some photos from that time which I’d love to share with our viewers:
How sweet! Would you like to share any memories of that time, Margaret?
I don’t really remember anything much because I was so very young, but maybe you can.
Yes, I can remember very clearly. I remember I started working with you
when you were about 1 ½. When I first arrived, you ran off and hid under the table.
You did this every single time I visited, for weeks, and I visited twice a week.
Your mum would try to encourage you to come out and finally you did, and we
started to form a bond. After that, things got better.
I think I was probably just really thrown because you were using sign language and
although my parents signed a little, it was the first time I had met anybody
who was fluent in BSL. I just panicked. Once I realised you were okay, things improved,
and I learned so much from you.
I think because you had never seen a Deaf person before it was a bit of a shock.
I remember when you were about three, you asked me why I was different.
I remember having to explain to you that you and I were the same, that we were both
Deaf and that we were different from your parents. I could see this really puzzled you.
I explained that your mum and dad were learning to sign so they could help
help you and that’s what happened now you’re all grown up.
I was young, about four I think, when I realised I was different from my parents.
3 ½, four, yes, about that age. Very young. I remember that conversation.
You used to come to my house twice a week to work with me, teach me
sign language and so on.
That’s right, yes. Your Teacher of the Deaf sed to give me things for you to work on
but you were never interested. You were very focused on BSL and
just wanted to sign with me. You were hungry to learn more signs.
You were not interested in worksheets!
I’m still like that now. I love nothing more than a long conversation in BSL!
Like I said, I don’t really remember much rom that time, but I do remember a few things.
I remember one day you came to my house, and we went out into the garden.
You taught me the signs for things in the garden like STONE and LEAF and so on,
do you remember that?
I do, yes! It was a lovely sunny day. We usually stayed in the house
but I wanted to go outside so I asked your mum if it was okay and she was really happy
for us to go out into the garden. You were so curious. You wanted to know
everything about everything! What is this? What is that? What is inside it? Why?
So many questions!
Why? Why? Why? Right! My favourite question. Wow.
Absolutely. You always would ask why.
So, you used to come to our house twice a week and you also used to visit
my nursery setting, I think.
Let me think. Yes, right, I did go to your nursery. I’ll never forget staff at your nursery
saying once that they had never seen you cry, but your home was only just across the
road and you knew it was there so you felt safe. They never thought of that.
Yes, it was really close by.
Honestly!
Yes, I was the model child. You came to my nursery to help me to be more included.
I remember you doing group work.
Yes. We did that sometimes. Sometimes the other children did not want to.
One or two of the kids were keen to learn sign language but it was quite difficult.
The staff were very good. I have to say they were lovely.
Lovely. You came with me to primary school too.
Yes, I did. I remember when you first started at one primary school,
they asked me to come in and work with the class to help you settle,
alongside the teacher. I used to come in twice a week. After a while you started
saying to me that I was using the wrong signs for things, because your teacher
had told you something different. I asked you to please just follow what I told
you as I was Deaf like you and had used sign language my whole life.
Your teacher had not. At that time there was very little BSL awareness the teacher
thought they could just make it up and it would be fine.
There was a lot of that kind of attitude.
You and I have had a relationship since I was about one and a half.
You taught me sign language that whole time. I remember starting
primary at the age of about six and some of the kids telling me that my signs
were wrong. I remember asking you about it and you told me to ignore them.
There was nothing wrong with the way we signed and if they signed things
differently then perhaps they were from a different region or a different country.
You explained that things are signed differently in different places and that’s fine.
I was surprised to learn that, but of course it’s true. I remember you
explaining that to me.
Yes. Different signs in different regions, and that’s something parents may not
have been aware of. But we had that bond, and I know that your mum signed
as well and that was important.
Definitely! It has been so lovely to talk to you Margaret. I have one final question, if I may.
Do you have any tips or advice for any Deaf young people out there who might
be watching?
I would say to any Deaf young person, don’t let anyone tell you what you can or
can’t do. If you want to do something, go for it. If you feel passionately about BSL,
we need more Deaf people to work as assistants for Deaf children,
to encourage them to keep signing forever.
If the opportunity is out there, grab it!
Absolutely.
Brilliant! Thank you so much for talking to me. I’ve really enjoyed our chat. Goodbye.
Goodbye.