WEBVTT 00:00:09.037 --> 00:00:18.687 Hello. My name is Erin McCluskey. This is a Wee BSL Blethers video about Deaf model. 00:00:18.687 --> 00:00:21.704 You will see I have somebody with me. Could you introduce yourself please? 00:00:21.889 --> 00:00:27.000 My name is Margaret McLean. 00:00:27.496 --> 00:00:28.906 Marvellous! Do you have a sign name, Margaret? 00:00:28.906 --> 00:00:30.156 Just MML. 00:00:30.411 --> 00:00:35.451 I’ll call you this sign name today if that’s alright? Okay. So I am going to 00:00:35.451 --> 00:00:39.041 interview Margaret about her childhood. Find out what it was like for her growing up, 00:00:39.041 --> 00:00:41.579 getting her first job and so on. I’m really looking forward to finding out more. 00:00:41.579 --> 00:00:44.011 Margaret, firstly, can I ask what it was like for you growing up? 00:00:44.233 --> 00:00:48.233 Well I come from a Deaf family so BSL was used every day at home. 00:00:48.233 --> 00:00:51.313 I only have a ran into issues outside of home, with hearing people. 00:00:51.313 --> 00:00:52.853 It did make me a bit reluctant to mix. 00:00:52.853 --> 00:00:55.061 So growing up things were pretty easy and comfortable in terms of accessible 00:00:55.061 --> 00:00:56.041 communication, at home at least? 00:00:56.041 --> 00:01:00.041 Easy, yes. Everybody signed every day within my family so there were no issues at all. 00:01:00.041 --> 00:01:02.891 So your family were all Deaf then? 00:01:02.891 --> 00:01:03.571 Yes. 00:01:03.571 --> 00:01:05.634 Parents? Your siblings? 00:01:05.634 --> 00:01:08.095 Yes, all Deaf. 00:01:08.095 --> 00:01:10.414 And were you all close? 00:01:10.414 --> 00:01:15.054 Yes, we were a close family I would say, because of BSL. I was closest to 00:01:15.054 --> 00:01:18.704 my father because he would tell me a lot of stuff. I think he was my 00:01:18.704 --> 00:01:21.836 role model growing up. 00:01:22.543 --> 00:01:24.582 How lovely. Your dad was your role model. 00:01:24.780 --> 00:01:25.390 Yes. 00:01:25.555 --> 00:01:27.427 He encouraged and supported you growing up? 00:01:27.427 --> 00:01:28.119 Yes. 00:01:28.243 --> 00:01:31.354 Marvellous. And that’s a perfect link into what I want to ask you about next 00:01:31.354 --> 00:01:35.354 because I want to talk about school. When you first went to school, what was it like? 00:01:35.902 --> 00:01:40.910 I first went to a local school. One I could walk to from home. I think it was only about 00:01:40.910 --> 00:01:45.160 five minutes away. My parents wanted me to go there so I was nearby. 00:01:45.160 --> 00:01:47.800 They did not want to send me away to boarding school. 00:01:47.800 --> 00:01:52.800 Unfortunately, the focus was very much on speaking and listening so my parents 00:01:52.800 --> 00:01:56.800 eventually decided to send me to a school in Glasgow where they used sign language. 00:01:56.800 --> 00:02:00.910 Makes sense. So your parents decided to remove you from that local school 00:02:00.910 --> 00:02:03.060 because it did not suit you and they had to send you away. 00:02:03.060 --> 00:02:04.937 Were you happy at your school in Glasgow? 00:02:05.346 --> 00:02:09.734 It was okay. They used sign language there, but the teachers couldn’t really 00:02:09.734 --> 00:02:13.734 sign very well. They would speak and throw in a few signs here in there, but not many. 00:02:14.304 --> 00:02:17.134 And at that time I guess sign language was very much seen as undesirable, am I right? 00:02:17.363 --> 00:02:20.043 Yes. It was a long time ago now and there were very old-fashioned views. 00:02:20.043 --> 00:02:21.853 There was no real awareness of the language or its importance. 00:02:21.853 --> 00:02:23.593 I think things are very different now of course. 00:02:23.593 --> 00:02:24.189 Yes. 00:02:24.543 --> 00:02:27.359 So, thinking about school, what was your favourite topic and what did 00:02:27.359 --> 00:02:28.699 you really do not like learning about? 00:02:28.931 --> 00:02:35.211 I really loved arithmetic. Nobody calls it that anymore. It’s become maths now. 00:02:35.211 --> 00:02:40.580 But we used to call it arithmetic. 00:02:41.095 --> 00:02:43.482 Oh really! So you were good at that and enjoyed it? 00:02:43.663 --> 00:02:51.405 Yes. I loved arithmetic. I was okay at English. The subject I really hated was sewing. 00:02:51.405 --> 00:02:52.315 Really! Why? 00:02:52.315 --> 00:02:56.315 Yes! I always used to mess it up and get it wrong. I found it really frustrating. 00:02:56.315 --> 00:02:57.788 Maybe you lacked confidence in that subject. 00:02:57.788 --> 00:02:58.758 I think you’re right. 00:02:58.950 --> 00:03:02.950 So you progressed through your schooling and eventually left school. Did you have any 00:03:02.950 --> 00:03:06.950 support to help you find a job. Did you go to college or university? 00:03:07.245 --> 00:03:10.603 There was nothing really back then. I do remember meeting with the 00:03:10.603 --> 00:03:15.711 Careers Advisor and telling them I wanted to become a Teacher of the Deaf. 00:03:15.711 --> 00:03:22.536 They told me I could not do that because I was Deaf myself. What a discriminatory attitude! 00:03:22.536 --> 00:03:26.436 I decided to ask the social worker about it and told them the same thing, 00:03:26.436 --> 00:03:30.436 that I wanted to become a Teacher of the Deaf. They also told me that I could 00:03:30.436 --> 00:03:33.656 not do that job and suggested that I become a machinist. I refused and they 00:03:33.656 --> 00:03:35.439 said I would have to go to the DHSS in that case. 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:36.499 What is the DHSS? 00:03:36.499 --> 00:03:38.359 It’s what’s known as the DWP these days. 00:03:38.359 --> 00:03:39.089 Oh I see. 00:03:39.089 --> 00:03:43.599 Similar to the job centre now. So I went along, and they suggested I try for office 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:48.929 work, which sounded okay, but it meant I had to go to college. They helped me fill 00:03:48.929 --> 00:03:51.299 in the application forms and I sent them off. I soon heard that I’d been 00:03:51.299 --> 00:03:54.729 offered a place which was great. I went to college to learn how to be a secretary, 00:03:54.729 --> 00:03:57.989 but I found it really difficult because I did not have an interpreter. 00:03:57.989 --> 00:03:59.469 How did you get on? 00:03:59.521 --> 00:04:03.521 I managed the best I could. I kept asking the girl sat next to me what we were 00:04:03.521 --> 00:04:05.354 supposed to be doing. I think she found it a bit frustrating. 00:04:05.354 --> 00:04:07.534 She was fed up that I was taking up her time. I tried my best though and 00:04:07.534 --> 00:04:09.640 I did get through the course and luckily, straight out to work. 00:04:09.640 --> 00:04:12.777 And you got your certificate? Did you go off and work in an office then? 00:04:12.777 --> 00:04:15.637 Yes that’s right. The course was a year and then after that I got a job in an office. 00:04:15.637 --> 00:04:18.267 I was there for seven years, then I left to start a family. 00:04:19.397 --> 00:04:23.397 So when you became pregnant, you left your job and focused on raising your family. 00:04:23.397 --> 00:04:25.917 Did you take on any other work after that? 00:04:26.938 --> 00:04:30.938 I did a few little jobs, but nothing interesting until I saw an advert for a 00:04:30.938 --> 00:04:37.088 BSL role model essentially. At that time, the role was known as an auxiliary. 00:04:37.088 --> 00:04:41.088 It’s changed now. I was not successful the first time I applied for one of these roles. 00:04:41.088 --> 00:04:42.927 It wasn’t until my third attempt that I finally got a job. 00:04:42.927 --> 00:04:45.137 Do you know why you were unsuccessful the first two times you tried? 00:04:45.137 --> 00:04:47.947 I don’t know. I think it was because the organisation at that time was maybe not 00:04:47.947 --> 00:04:52.727 aware of what BSL was and were not expecting a Deaf person to apply for the role. 00:04:52.727 --> 00:04:55.927 The families they wanted someone to work with were hearing, so perhaps they assumed 00:04:55.927 --> 00:04:57.827 it would be better to have a hearing person in post. I don’t know that for sure though. 00:04:57.827 --> 00:05:01.267 So you were finally successful on your third attempt. What did your work as a 00:05:01.267 --> 00:05:03.833 BSL advocate involved? 00:05:04.100 --> 00:05:08.750 Well really, I just helped the parents. I taught them sign language. 00:05:08.750 --> 00:05:12.750 I supported nursery and primary school and even secondary 00:05:12.750 --> 00:05:14.125 school too with sign language. 00:05:14.125 --> 00:05:15.720 So you must have had to travel around a lot for your job? 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:17.974 Yes, I travelled all over the place. I had a lot of work to do. 00:05:17.974 --> 00:05:20.114 And did you teach sign language as part of your role? 00:05:20.114 --> 00:05:21.014 I did, yes. 00:05:21.014 --> 00:05:23.574 Did you cover Deaf identity, culture and so on as well? 00:05:23.574 --> 00:05:26.564 Yes, I did, but my role was really more focused around supporting the Deaf young person. 00:05:26.564 --> 00:05:29.574 For example, I would read a book with them and explain the meaning of particular 00:05:29.574 --> 00:05:37.184 words to try and increase their sign vocabulary. I would do the same for numbers. 00:05:37.789 --> 00:05:42.234 Sounds like a great job. Okay, let’s move on a little to our connection. 00:05:42.234 --> 00:05:44.730 When I was little, you taught me BSL didn’t you Margaret? 00:05:44.730 --> 00:05:45.460 I did. 00:05:45.870 --> 00:05:48.715 I remember Margaret working with me. She was my Deaf role model. 00:05:48.715 --> 00:05:54.763 She gave me the most wonderful gift, the gift of British Sign Language. 00:05:54.763 --> 00:05:57.833 I feel incredibly lucky to have had the opportunity to learn BSL from Margaret. 00:05:57.833 --> 00:06:01.003 Without her, I don’t know what my life would be like now. I don’t think I would 00:06:01.003 --> 00:06:03.133 be where I am now. It didn’t just stop with me though. I have been able to share 00:06:03.133 --> 00:06:06.143 this beautiful language with my parents too. This makes our family connections so much easier. 00:06:06.143 --> 00:06:10.143 So Margaret, you really are my Deaf role model. When I was little, you used to come out 00:06:10.143 --> 00:06:14.143 to my nursery. I still have some photos from that time which I’d love to share with our viewers: 00:06:23.216 --> 00:06:27.806 How sweet! Would you like to share any memories of that time, Margaret? 00:06:27.806 --> 00:06:30.668 I don’t really remember anything much because I was so very young, but maybe you can. 00:06:30.668 --> 00:06:35.778 Yes, I can remember very clearly. I remember I started working with you when you 00:06:35.778 --> 00:06:40.968 were about one and a half years old. When I first arrived, you ran off and hid under the table. 00:06:40.968 --> 00:06:44.968 You did this every single time I visited, every week, and I visited twice a week. 00:06:44.968 --> 00:06:50.888 Your mum would try to encourage you to come out and finally you did, and we 00:06:50.888 --> 00:06:53.231 started to form a bond. After that, things got better. 00:06:53.548 --> 00:06:56.758 I think I was probably just really thrown because you were using sign language and 00:06:56.758 --> 00:06:59.488 although my parents signed a little, it was the first time I had met anybody 00:06:59.488 --> 00:07:03.488 who was fluent in BSL. I just panicked. Once I realised you were okay, things improved, 00:07:03.488 --> 00:07:04.749 and I learned so much from you. 00:07:04.914 --> 00:07:11.268 I think because you had never seen a Deaf person before it was a bit of a shock. 00:07:11.268 --> 00:07:16.628 I remember when you were about three, you asked me why I was different. 00:07:16.628 --> 00:07:20.628 I remember having to explain to you that you and I were the same, that we were both 00:07:20.628 --> 00:07:24.628 Deaf and that we were different from your parents. I could see this really puzzled you. 00:07:24.628 --> 00:07:28.214 I explained that your mum and dad were learning to sign so they could help 00:07:28.214 --> 00:07:30.048 help you and that’s what happened now you’re all grown up. 00:07:30.048 --> 00:07:33.258 I was young, about three I think, when I realised I was different from my parents. 00:07:33.258 --> 00:07:36.418 Yes, it was about three and a half years old, very young. I remember that conversation. 00:07:36.723 --> 00:07:40.316 You used to come to my house twice a week to work with me, teach me 00:07:40.316 --> 00:07:41.580 sign language and so on. 00:07:41.721 --> 00:07:46.871 That’s right, yes. Your Teacher of the Deaf sed to give me things for you to work on 00:07:46.871 --> 00:07:51.311 but you were never interested. You were very focused on BSL and 00:07:51.311 --> 00:07:55.311 just wanted to sign with me. You were hungry to learn more signs. 00:07:55.311 --> 00:07:59.311 You were not interested in worksheets! 00:08:00.275 --> 00:08:03.975 I’m still like that now. I love nothing more than a long conversation in BSL! 00:08:05.428 --> 00:08:10.108 Like I said, I don’t really remember much rom that time, but I do remember a few things. 00:08:10.108 --> 00:08:13.152 I remember one day you came to my house, and we went out into the garden. 00:08:13.152 --> 00:08:16.068 You taught me the signs for things in the garden like STONE and LEAF and so on, 00:08:16.068 --> 00:08:17.078 do you remember that? 00:08:17.078 --> 00:08:19.748 I do, yes! It was a lovely sunny day. We usually stayed in the house 00:08:19.748 --> 00:08:22.938 but I wanted to go outside so I asked your mum if it was okay and she was really happy 00:08:22.938 --> 00:08:25.371 for us to go out into the garden. You were so curious. You wanted to know 00:08:25.371 --> 00:08:28.591 everything about everything! What is this? What is that? What is inside it? Why? 00:08:28.591 --> 00:08:29.931 So many questions! 00:08:29.931 --> 00:08:33.931 Why? Why? Why? Right! My favourite question. Wow. 00:08:33.931 --> 00:08:35.741 Absolutely. You always would ask why. 00:08:36.274 --> 00:08:39.294 So, you used to come to our house twice a week and you also used to visit 00:08:39.294 --> 00:08:40.704 my nursery setting, I think. 00:08:41.034 --> 00:08:46.364 Let me think. Yes, right, I did go to your nursery. I’ll never forget staff at your nursery 00:08:46.364 --> 00:08:56.874 saying once that they had never seen you cry, but your home was only just across the 00:08:56.874 --> 00:08:59.384 road and you knew it was there so you felt safe. They never thought of that. 00:08:59.384 --> 00:09:01.764 Yes, it was really close by. 00:09:01.764 --> 00:09:02.434 Honestly! 00:09:02.434 --> 00:09:07.344 Yes, I was the model child. You came to my nursery to help me to be more included. 00:09:07.344 --> 00:09:09.174 I remember you doing group work. 00:09:09.453 --> 00:09:13.453 Yes. We did that sometimes. Sometimes the other children did not want to. 00:09:13.453 --> 00:09:16.326 One or two of the kids were keen to learn sign language but it was quite difficult. 00:09:16.326 --> 00:09:19.096 The staff were very good. I have to say they were lovely. 00:09:19.096 --> 00:09:22.274 Lovely. You came with me to primary school too. 00:09:22.274 --> 00:09:26.274 Yes, I did. I remember when you first started at one primary school, 00:09:26.274 --> 00:09:30.274 they asked me to come in and work with the class to help you settle, 00:09:30.274 --> 00:09:34.454 alongside the teacher. I used to come in twice a week. After a while you started 00:09:34.454 --> 00:09:38.814 saying to me that I was using the wrong signs for things, because your teacher 00:09:38.814 --> 00:09:41.374 had told you something different. I asked you to please just follow what I told 00:09:41.374 --> 00:09:43.944 you as I was Deaf like you and had used sign language my whole life. 00:09:43.944 --> 00:09:46.404 Your teacher had not. At that time there was very little BSL awareness the teacher 00:09:46.404 --> 00:09:48.206 thought they could just make it up and it would be fine. 00:09:48.206 --> 00:09:49.424 There was a lot of that kind of attitude. 00:09:49.424 --> 00:09:53.424 You and I have had a relationship since I was about one and a half. 00:09:53.424 --> 00:09:56.554 You taught me sign language that whole time. I remember starting 00:09:56.554 --> 00:10:02.074 primary at the age of about six and some of the kids telling me that my signs 00:10:02.074 --> 00:10:06.994 were wrong. I remember asking you about it and you told me to ignore them. 00:10:06.994 --> 00:10:09.594 There was nothing wrong with the way we signed and if they signed things 00:10:09.594 --> 00:10:12.314 differently then perhaps they were from a different region or a different country. 00:10:12.314 --> 00:10:14.114 You explained that things are signed differently in different places and that’s fine. 00:10:14.114 --> 00:10:15.604 I was surprised to learn that, but of course it’s true. I remember you 00:10:15.604 --> 00:10:16.483 explaining that to me. 00:10:16.483 --> 00:10:19.153 Yes. Different signs in different regions, and that’s something parents may not 00:10:19.153 --> 00:10:21.733 have been aware of. But we had that bond, and I know that your mum signed 00:10:21.733 --> 00:10:22.993 as well and that was important. 00:10:23.339 --> 00:10:27.689 Definitely! It has been so lovely to talk to you Margaret. I have one final question, if I may. 00:10:27.689 --> 00:10:30.892 Do you have any tips or advice for any Deaf young people out there who might 00:10:30.892 --> 00:10:31.959 be watching? 00:10:32.397 --> 00:10:36.397 I would say to any Deaf young person, don’t let anyone tell you what you can or 00:10:36.397 --> 00:10:39.787 can’t do. If you want to do something, go for it. If you feel passionately about BSL, 00:10:39.787 --> 00:10:41.957 we need more Deaf people to work as assistants for Deaf children, 00:10:41.957 --> 00:10:43.737 to encourage them to keep signing forever. 00:10:43.737 --> 00:10:45.633 If the opportunity is out there, grab it! 00:10:45.633 --> 00:10:46.423 Absolutely. 00:10:46.423 --> 00:10:52.153 Brilliant! Thank you so much for talking to me. I’ve really enjoyed our chat. Goodbye. 00:10:52.153 --> 00:10:53.183 Goodbye.