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Hello. My name is Erin McCluskey. 
This is a Wee BSL Blethers video about Deaf model.

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You will see I have somebody with me. 
Could you introduce yourself please?

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My name is Margaret McLean.

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Marvellous! Do you have a sign name, Margaret?

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Just MML.

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I’ll call you this sign name today if 
that’s alright? Okay. So I am going to

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interview Margaret about her childhood. 
Find out what it was like for her growing up,

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getting her first job and so on. 
I’m really looking forward to finding out more.

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Margaret, firstly, can I ask what it 
was like for you growing up?

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Well I come from a Deaf family so BSL 
was used every day at home.

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I only have a ran into issues outside 
of home, with hearing people.

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It did make me a bit reluctant to mix.

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So growing up things were pretty easy 
and comfortable in terms of accessible

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communication, at home at least?

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Easy, yes. Everybody signed every day 
within my family so there were no issues at all.

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So your family were all Deaf then?

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Yes.

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Parents? Your siblings?

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Yes, all Deaf.

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And were you all close?

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Yes, we were a close family I would 
say, because of BSL. I was closest to

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my father because he would tell me 
a lot of stuff. I think he was my

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role model growing up.

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How lovely. Your dad was your role model.

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Yes.

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He encouraged and supported you growing up?

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Yes.

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Marvellous. And that’s a perfect link into 
what I want to ask you about next

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because I want to talk about school. 
When you first went to school, what was it like?

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I first went to a local school. One I could
walk to from home. I think it was only about

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five minutes away. My parents wanted 
me to go there so I was nearby.

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They did not want to send me away 
to boarding school.

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Unfortunately, the focus was very much 
on speaking and listening so my parents

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eventually decided to send me to a 
school in Glasgow where they used sign language.

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Makes sense. So your parents decided 
to remove you from that local school

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because it did not suit you and they 
had to send you away.

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Were you happy at your school in Glasgow?

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It was okay. They used sign language 
there, but the teachers couldn’t really

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sign very well. They would speak and 
throw in a few signs here in there, but not many.

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And at that time I guess sign language was 
very much seen as undesirable, am I right?

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Yes. It was a long time ago now and there 
were very old-fashioned views.

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There was no real awareness of the 
language or its importance.

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I think things are very different now of course.

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Yes.

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So, thinking about school, what was your 
favourite topic and what did

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you really do not like learning about?

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I really loved arithmetic. Nobody calls it 
that anymore. It’s become maths now.

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But we used to call it arithmetic.

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Oh really! So you were good 
at that and enjoyed it?

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Yes. I loved arithmetic. I was okay at 
English. The subject I really hated was sewing.

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Really! Why?

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Yes! I always used to mess it up and 
get it wrong. I found it really frustrating.

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Maybe you lacked 
confidence in that subject.

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I think you’re right.

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So you progressed through your schooling 
and eventually left school. Did you have any

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support to help you find a job. 
Did you go to college or university?

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There was nothing really back then.
I do remember meeting with the

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Careers Advisor and telling them 
I wanted to become a Teacher of the Deaf.

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They told me I could not do that because 
I was Deaf myself. What a discriminatory attitude!

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I decided to ask the social worker 
about it and told them the same thing,

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that I wanted to become a Teacher of 
the Deaf. They also told me that I could

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not do that job and suggested that 
I become a machinist. I refused and they

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said I would have to go 
to the DHSS in that case.

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What is the DHSS?

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It’s what’s known as the DWP these days.

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Oh I see.

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Similar to the job centre now. So I went 
along, and they suggested I try for office

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work, which sounded okay, but it meant 
I had to go to college. They helped me fill

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in the application forms and I sent 
them off. I soon heard that I’d been

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offered a place which was great. 
I went to college to learn how to be a secretary,

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but I found it really difficult 
because I did not have an interpreter.

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How did you get on?

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I managed the best I could. I kept asking 
the girl sat next to me what we were

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supposed to be doing. I think she 
found it a bit frustrating.

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She was fed up that I was taking up 
her time. I tried my best though and

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I did get through the course and 
luckily, straight out to work.

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And you got your certificate? Did you 
go off and work in an office then?

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Yes that’s right. The course was a year 
and then after that I got a job in an office.

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I was there for seven years, 
then I left to start a family.

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So when you became pregnant, you left 
your job and focused on raising your family.

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Did you take on any other work after that?

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I did a few little jobs, but nothing 
interesting until I saw an advert for a

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BSL role model essentially. At that time, 
the role was known as an auxiliary.

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It’s changed now. I was not successful 
the first time I applied for one of these roles.

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It wasn’t until my third attempt 
that I finally got a job.

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Do you know why you were unsuccessful 
the first two times you tried?

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I don’t know. I think it was because the 
organisation at that time was maybe not

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aware of what BSL was and were not 
expecting a Deaf person to apply for the role.

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The families they wanted someone to work 
with were hearing, so perhaps they assumed

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it would be better to have a hearing person
in post. I don’t know that for sure though.

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So you were finally successful on your 
third attempt. What did your work as a

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BSL advocate involved?

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Well really, I just helped the parents. 
I taught them sign language.

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I supported nursery and primary 
school and even secondary

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school too with sign language.

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So you must have had to travel 
around a lot for your job?

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Yes, I travelled all over the place. 
I had a lot of work to do.

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And did you teach sign language 
as part of your role?

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I did, yes.

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Did you cover Deaf identity, 
culture and so on as well?

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Yes, I did, but my role was really more focused 
around supporting the Deaf young person.

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For example, I would read a book with 
them and explain the meaning of particular

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words to try and increase their sign 
vocabulary. I would do the same for numbers.

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Sounds like a great job. Okay, let’s move
on a little to our connection.

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When I was little, you taught me
BSL didn’t you Margaret?

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I did.

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I remember Margaret working with me. 
She was my Deaf role model.

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She gave me the most wonderful gift, 
the gift of British Sign Language.

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I feel incredibly lucky to have had the 
opportunity to learn BSL from Margaret.

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Without her, I don’t know what my life 
would be like now. I don’t think I would

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be where I am now. It didn’t just stop 
with me though. I have been able to share

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this beautiful language with my parents too. 
This makes our family connections so much easier.

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So Margaret, you really are my Deaf role model. 
When I was little, you used to come out

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to my nursery. I still have some photos from 
that time which I’d love to share with our viewers:

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How sweet! Would you like to share any 
memories of that time, Margaret?

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I don’t really remember anything much 
because I was so very young, but maybe you can.

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Yes, I can remember very clearly. 
I remember I started working with you when you

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were about one and a half years old. When I first 
arrived, you ran off and hid under the table.

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You did this every single time I visited, 
every week, and I visited twice a week.

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Your mum would try to encourage you to 
come out and finally you did, and we

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started to form a bond. 
After that, things got better.

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I think I was probably just really thrown 
because you were using sign language and

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although my parents signed a little, 
it was the first time I had met anybody

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who was fluent in BSL. I just panicked. 
Once I realised you were okay, things improved,

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and I learned so much from you.

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I think because you had never seen a 
Deaf person before it was a bit of a shock.

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I remember when you were about three, 
you asked me why I was different.

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I remember having to explain to you that 
you and I were the same, that we were both

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Deaf and that we were different from 
your parents. I could see this really puzzled you.

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I explained that your mum and dad 
were learning to sign so they could help

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help you and that’s what happened 
now you’re all grown up.

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I was young, about three I think, when 
I realised I was different from my parents.

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Yes, it was about three and a half years old, 
very young. I remember that conversation.

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You used to come to my house twice a 
week to work with me, teach me

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sign language, vocabulary and so on.

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That’s right, yes. Your Teacher of the Deaf 
liked to give me things for you to work on

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but you were never interested in learning 
other work. You sill wanted to learn BSL.

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You were hungry to learn more signs.

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You were not interested in worksheets!

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I’m still like that now. I love nothing more 
than a long conversation in BSL!

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Like I said, I don’t really remember much 
from that time, but I do remember a few things.

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I remember one day you came to my house, 
and we went out into the garden.

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You taught me the signs for things in 
the garden like STONE and LEAF and so on,

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do you remember that?

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I do, yes! It was a lovely sunny day. 
We usually stayed in the house

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but I wanted to go outside so I asked your 
mum if it was okay and she was really happy

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for us to go out into the garden. 
You were so curious. You wanted to know

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everything! What is this? What is that? 
What is inside it? Worms. Why?

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So many questions!

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Why? Why? Why? Right! 
My favourite question. Wow.

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Absolutely. You always would ask why.

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So, you used to come to our house 
twice a week and you also used to visit

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my nursery setting, I think.

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Let me think. Yes, right, I did go to your 
nursery. I’ll never forget staff at your nursery

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saying once that they had never seen you cry, 
but your home was only just across the

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road and you knew it was there so
you felt safe. They never thought of that.

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Yes, it was really close by.

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Honestly!

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Yes, I was the model child. You came 
to my nursery to help me to be more included.

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I remember you doing group work.

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Yes. We did that sometimes. Sometimes 
the other children did not want to.

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One or two of the kids were keen to 
learn sign language but it was quite difficult.

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The staff were very good. 
I have to say they were lovely.

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Lovely. You came with me 
to primary school too.

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Yes, I did. I remember when you first 
started at one primary school,

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they asked me to come in and work 
with the class to help you settle,

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alongside the teacher. I used to come in 
twice a week. After a while you started

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saying to me that I was using the wrong 
signs for things, because your teacher

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had told you something different. 
I asked you to please just follow what I told

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you as I was Deaf like you, and we had 
been using sign language.

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At that time, there was no BSL awareness.

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The teacher thought they could 
just make it up and it would be fine.

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You and I have had a relationship since 
I was about one and a half.

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You taught me sign language that
whole time. I remember starting

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primary at the age of about six and 
some of the kids telling me that my signs

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were wrong. I remember asking you 
about it and you told me to ignore them.

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There was nothing wrong with the 
way we signed and if they signed things

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differently then perhaps they were 
from a different region or a different country.

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You explained that things are signed 
differently in different places and that’s fine.

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I was surprised to learn that, 
but of course it’s true. I remember you

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explaining that to me.

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Yes. Different signs in different regions, 
and that’s something parents may not

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have been aware of. But we had that 
bond, and I know that your mum signed

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as well and that was important.

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Definitely! It has been so lovely to talk 
to you Margaret. I have one final question, if I may.

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Do you have any tips or advice for any 
Deaf young people out there who might

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be watching?

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I would say to any Deaf young person, 
don’t let anyone tell you what you can or

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can’t do. If you want to do something, 
go for it. If you feel passionately about BSL,

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we need more Deaf people to work 
as assistants for Deaf children,

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to encourage them to keep signing forever.

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If the opportunity is out there, grab it!

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Absolutely.

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Brilliant! Thank you so much for talking 
to me. I’ve really enjoyed our chat. Goodbye.

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Goodbye.