WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.389 [Music] 00:00:04.560 --> 00:00:06.960 Tom Bilyeu: Hey everybody, welcome to Impact Theory. 00:00:06.960 --> 00:00:08.720 Today's guest is organizational 00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:11.679 psychologist Adam Grant. He's a four-time 00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:13.519 New York Times best-selling author who's 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:15.839 been called one of the top 10 most 00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:17.840 influential management thinkers of our 00:00:17.840 --> 00:00:20.480 time. He's been ranked Wharton's number 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:23.039 one professor for seven years running 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:24.800 and is one of the most sought after 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:27.439 speakers on the planet. Additionally, this 00:00:27.439 --> 00:00:29.599 former junior olympics diver was named 00:00:29.599 --> 00:00:31.760 by Fortune Magazine to their prestigious 00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:34.320 40 under 40 list. And everyone from Bill 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:36.800 Gates and Richard Branson to J.J. Abrams 00:00:36.800 --> 00:00:38.559 and Malcolm Gladwell have praised his 00:00:38.559 --> 00:00:40.719 work. And his Ted Talks together have a 00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:43.040 collective view count north of 20 00:00:43.040 --> 00:00:45.840 million views. Adam, welcome to the show 00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:46.640 man. 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:48.399 Adam Grant: Thanks for that Tom. I can assure you 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:50.635 it's all downhill from here. Tom Bilyeu: That's hilarious. 00:00:50.635 --> 00:00:52.960 It's funny how hearing 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:54.800 one's accomplishments strung out like 00:00:54.800 --> 00:00:57.680 that can sound very weird at times but 00:00:57.680 --> 00:00:59.199 it is pretty impressive man, like what 00:00:59.199 --> 00:01:01.680 you've been able to do is 00:01:01.680 --> 00:01:03.440 pretty extraordinary. And what I love is 00:01:03.440 --> 00:01:05.280 that it comes from 00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:08.320 a pretty aggressive approach to getting 00:01:08.320 --> 00:01:10.240 people to tell you what you're doing 00:01:10.240 --> 00:01:12.960 wrong so that you can get better. 00:01:12.960 --> 00:01:15.360 And right now we are living through some 00:01:15.360 --> 00:01:17.200 extraordinarily 00:01:18.479 --> 00:01:20.560 interesting times, the tables being 00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:22.080 overturned, we're in the middle of a lot 00:01:22.080 --> 00:01:23.520 of protesting. There's going to be just 00:01:23.520 --> 00:01:25.680 tremendous change, hopefully, tremendous 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.320 change taking place. And to get us 00:01:28.320 --> 00:01:30.799 through that kind of change well, we're 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:32.240 obviously going to need a lot of 00:01:32.240 --> 00:01:34.079 tremendous leadership. And I was 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:35.680 wondering in your research, I know that 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:38.240 you've focused heavily on what are sort 00:01:38.240 --> 00:01:39.520 of the universal principles of 00:01:39.520 --> 00:01:40.799 leadership, 00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:42.159 and I'd love to start there, like what do 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:44.799 you think makes for a great leader? 00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:46.880 Adam Grant: Oh where do we begin? How many hours do 00:01:46.880 --> 00:01:47.376 you have Tom? 00:01:47.376 --> 00:01:48.880 Tom Bilyeu: As many as you'll give me 00:01:48.880 --> 00:01:52.000 to be honest. Adam Grant: All right, I'm here. I 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:54.240 have not a lot else on my agenda today 00:01:54.240 --> 00:01:55.200 so 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:56.880 um, you know when I think about 00:01:56.880 --> 00:01:58.240 leadership, the first thing I want to do 00:01:58.240 --> 00:02:00.479 is I want to break it down into values 00:02:00.479 --> 00:02:01.920 and skills. 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:04.159 And I think that for me the values are 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:06.960 table stakes, right? So you can't lead if 00:02:06.960 --> 00:02:08.800 you're a taker, rather than a giver. If 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:10.639 it's all about you as opposed to saying 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:12.879 look, I care more about my people and the 00:02:12.879 --> 00:02:14.640 mission we're trying to advance than I 00:02:14.640 --> 00:02:16.800 do about glorifying myself. 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:18.239 So that would be the first value I'd put 00:02:18.239 --> 00:02:20.000 on the table. The second- Tom Bilyeu: So before we, before we move 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:21.599 off that one, just give people a quick Adam Grant: Yea. 00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:23.440 Tom Bilyeu: breakdown of givers versus takers, you 00:02:23.440 --> 00:02:24.480 have a whole book on it. It's really 00:02:24.480 --> 00:02:26.640 extraordinary. You talk about the 00:02:26.640 --> 00:02:28.080 three types, I think it'd be useful for 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:29.440 people to understand that. 00:02:29.440 --> 00:02:30.959 Adam Grant: Yeah, happy too. So when I think about 00:02:30.959 --> 00:02:32.400 your style of giving and taking the 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:34.239 question is just, when you interact with 00:02:34.239 --> 00:02:36.080 somebody new, what's your default 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:38.160 instinct? Is it to give and say what can 00:02:38.160 --> 00:02:40.800 I do for you? To take and think about 00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:43.120 what can you do for me? Or to match and 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:45.599 say okay can we trade some kind of favor? 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:47.360 And what I found over and over again is 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:49.360 that most people default to matching. 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:51.120 They don't want to be too selfish or too 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:53.840 generous, and yet in the long run the 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:55.920 most successful leaders especially, are 00:02:55.920 --> 00:02:57.440 the servant leaders 00:02:57.440 --> 00:02:58.879 who are interested in helping others 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:00.959 with no strings attached and who will 00:03:00.959 --> 00:03:03.120 put other people above their own narrow 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:05.360 self-interest. And so I think 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:07.040 that's just, that's a must-have in 00:03:07.040 --> 00:03:09.680 leadership and it's far more rare than I 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:11.040 would like it to be. 00:03:11.040 --> 00:03:12.720 Tom Bilyeu: Fair 00:03:12.720 --> 00:03:14.239 Adam Grant: I think beyond that, I think a second 00:03:14.239 --> 00:03:15.599 attribute I look for in leaders 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:18.560 value-wise is humility, to recognize 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:20.720 your shortcomings, but also be motivated 00:03:20.720 --> 00:03:23.599 to overcome those shortcomings. It's 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:25.200 not that helpful if you can say yeah, I 00:03:25.200 --> 00:03:26.959 can make a list of the 19 00:03:26.959 --> 00:03:29.519 weaknesses that I have, but I don't care 00:03:29.519 --> 00:03:31.599 about fixing any of them, right? I think 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:33.360 being an effective leader is heavily 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:35.840 about striving for self-improvement. 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:37.760 And the third value I'd put on the table 00:03:37.760 --> 00:03:39.760 is integrity. It's a consistency 00:03:39.760 --> 00:03:41.760 between your words and your deeds 00:03:41.760 --> 00:03:43.519 and a lot of people will say look you 00:03:43.519 --> 00:03:45.440 know, you have to practice what you 00:03:45.440 --> 00:03:47.360 preach. I actually think leaders should 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:49.760 be doing the reverse which is to say I 00:03:49.760 --> 00:03:51.760 am only going to preach what I already 00:03:51.760 --> 00:03:52.799 practice. 00:03:52.799 --> 00:03:54.720 And if we could just get leaders who 00:03:54.720 --> 00:03:57.680 value generosity, humility, and integrity, 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:00.159 I would be overjoyed. And then we get to 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:01.200 skills. 00:04:01.200 --> 00:04:03.280 Tom Bilyeu: All right, so before we go on to skills, 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:04.720 let's talk about those in a little more 00:04:04.720 --> 00:04:06.159 depth. So one of the things I found 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:08.000 interesting in the book 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:10.560 is when you're talking about takers, 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:12.720 givers, matchers, that you said the 00:04:12.720 --> 00:04:14.480 interesting thing about givers is that 00:04:14.480 --> 00:04:16.079 they represent both ends of the spectrum, 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:18.079 so you see some of the least successful 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:19.759 people are givers and then the most 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:21.918 successful people are givers. And so I'd 00:04:21.918 --> 00:04:24.000 love to know how to use it functionally 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.000 and when it sort of metastasizes and 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:27.520 becomes a problem. 00:04:27.520 --> 00:04:28.960 Adam Grant: Yeah. So if you look at the differences 00:04:28.960 --> 00:04:30.880 between failed and successful givers, 00:04:30.880 --> 00:04:33.759 they break down into the question of, 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:36.000 actually it's three questions. One, who do 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:38.479 you help? Two, when do you help? And three, 00:04:38.479 --> 00:04:39.919 how do you help? 00:04:39.919 --> 00:04:41.840 And what you see with failed givers is 00:04:41.840 --> 00:04:44.560 they're basically self-sacrificing, so 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:46.479 they're helping all the people all the 00:04:46.479 --> 00:04:48.800 time with all the requests which is a 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:50.639 recipe for burnout. It's also an easy way 00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:52.400 to get burned by takers. 00:04:52.400 --> 00:04:54.479 What you see with successful givers is 00:04:54.479 --> 00:04:56.080 they're more thoughtful about their 00:04:56.080 --> 00:04:58.320 helping choices and they say look, I will 00:04:58.320 --> 00:05:00.160 do whatever I can to support people who 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:02.240 are either generous or fair, right? Givers 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:03.919 or matchers. But if somebody has a 00:05:03.919 --> 00:05:05.440 history or reputation of selfish 00:05:05.440 --> 00:05:06.479 behavior, 00:05:06.479 --> 00:05:08.400 then they might be a taker and so I'm 00:05:08.400 --> 00:05:09.759 gonna be a little bit more cautious with 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:11.520 them and set some boundaries. 00:05:11.520 --> 00:05:13.039 One, because I don't want to reinforce 00:05:13.039 --> 00:05:15.360 that behavior and reward it. And two, 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:16.800 because they're going to take advantage 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:18.320 of me and prevent me from helping the 00:05:18.320 --> 00:05:19.440 people who are going to pay it back and 00:05:19.440 --> 00:05:20.800 pay it forward. 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:22.160 And then you also see that successful 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:24.880 givers are more likely to say okay, I'll 00:05:24.880 --> 00:05:26.880 block out time from my own agenda and own 00:05:26.880 --> 00:05:28.639 priorities because I want to be 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:30.400 ambitious around my own goals, not just 00:05:30.400 --> 00:05:32.800 around helping other people and yeah, if 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:34.720 it's an emergency I will show up and 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:36.639 help you, but otherwise I have some 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:38.000 priorities that I need to take care of 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:40.560 here. So I will be available to you when 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:41.840 you know, when it's not going to be a 00:05:41.840 --> 00:05:43.360 huge cost to me. 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:45.039 And then, they're also careful about 00:05:45.039 --> 00:05:47.520 helping in ways that energize them and 00:05:47.520 --> 00:05:49.600 where they add distinctive value. So you 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:51.360 see a lot of failed givers becoming 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:53.680 jacks of all trades and you know, pretty 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:55.600 soon they get a reputation for being 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:57.759 capable and helpful and then no good 00:05:57.759 --> 00:05:59.520 deed goes unpunished. 00:05:59.520 --> 00:06:01.280 Whereas the successful givers are more 00:06:01.280 --> 00:06:02.639 likely to say look, I've got a couple 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:05.280 ways of helping that I really like and 00:06:05.280 --> 00:06:07.199 that I excel at, and I'm going to focus 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:08.960 on those so that I can add more value 00:06:08.960 --> 00:06:11.120 and so when I do help, it's energizing to 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:13.120 me as opposed to exhausting. 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:15.039 Tom Bilyeu: One of the things I found in a company 00:06:15.039 --> 00:06:17.199 context and I'm not even sure yet how 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:19.360 applicable this is to 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:21.280 the greater time that we're living 00:06:21.280 --> 00:06:23.759 through right now, but when I think 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:25.520 about trying to provide leadership in a 00:06:25.520 --> 00:06:27.199 company context, it's a pretty 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:28.720 interesting dynamic when you talk about 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.120 humility where you do have to have a 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:32.720 degree of certainty, you have to have a 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:34.800 degree of like being able to step out 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:37.680 front to galvanize everybody's 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:39.759 attention, hopefully not on yourself, but 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:41.520 you're galvanizing it on a vision, and 00:06:41.520 --> 00:06:43.039 you have to get everybody pointed in the 00:06:43.039 --> 00:06:45.120 same direction. I often talk about one of 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:46.800 the things I think that leaders really 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.120 have to do is you have to understand how 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:50.960 to generate momentum, so we're in a 00:06:50.960 --> 00:06:52.000 moment right now where if we can 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:53.759 capitalize on the sort of emotional 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:55.280 momentum that we have, point it in a 00:06:55.280 --> 00:06:56.960 direction that is 00:06:56.960 --> 00:06:58.720 ultimately bringing everybody together 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:01.120 and is thoughtful in terms of the 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:03.840 long-term outcome that we want to have, 00:07:03.840 --> 00:07:05.680 that could be such a powerful 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:06.960 moment. But 00:07:06.960 --> 00:07:09.440 getting everybody to 00:07:09.440 --> 00:07:11.440 move in the same direction 00:07:11.440 --> 00:07:12.319 is 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:14.560 is a difficult task without getting 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:16.960 people to stare at you. So you want them 00:07:16.960 --> 00:07:18.560 to stare at the idea, right? You don't 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:19.759 want them to overfocus on you, but 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:21.039 somebody has to present it, somebody has 00:07:21.039 --> 00:07:22.800 to present it with clarity and get 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:25.039 everybody going, keep them enthusiastic, 00:07:25.039 --> 00:07:27.840 keep that energy level up. And 00:07:27.840 --> 00:07:30.000 so the type of person, and you've talked 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:31.280 really powerfully about this, the type of 00:07:31.280 --> 00:07:34.720 person that is drawn to that can often 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:36.560 spill into the narcissistic, right? They 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:38.720 enjoy the attention and so some of what Adam Grant: Yea. 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:40.800 Tom Bilyeu: they're seeking is that. And I'm just 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:42.319 curious how, 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:44.560 how somebody who really wants to help, 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:46.319 they really want to help sustain that 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:47.840 momentum, they want to be a beacon of 00:07:47.840 --> 00:07:49.680 hope in this time, 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:51.039 how do they make it about the mission 00:07:51.039 --> 00:07:53.039 and not about themselves? 00:07:53.039 --> 00:07:54.080 Adam Grant: I think that's such an important 00:07:54.080 --> 00:07:55.759 question Tom and I love how you've 00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:57.599 highlighted that distinction. 00:07:57.599 --> 00:07:59.199 I think that you know, for me it comes 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:01.520 down to promoting your ideas, not 00:08:01.520 --> 00:08:02.800 yourself. 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:03.680 And 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:05.120 when I look at how leaders do that 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:06.560 effectively, one of the things that 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:08.400 really surprised me is sometimes the 00:08:08.400 --> 00:08:10.879 message doesn't even come from them. 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:12.400 So as an example, years ago I was 00:08:12.400 --> 00:08:14.400 studying fundraising callers, and they 00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:16.160 were trying to bring in donations to a 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:17.360 university. 00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:19.360 And the leaders were trying to 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:20.879 motivate them because this is hard work, 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:22.639 right? You interrupt people's dinner, 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:24.319 you try to convince them that no your 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:26.479 tuition was not enough, you should keep 00:08:26.479 --> 00:08:28.240 sending money into the university and 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:30.560 now you should get nothing back for that 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:33.519 donation. So they got yelled at a lot, 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:35.120 they you know, they shouldered a lot of 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:36.559 complaints. And 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:38.559 the leaders tried to talk about why the 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:40.159 money was important and where it was 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:42.159 going and the callers just they looked 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:43.360 at that and they said 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:45.360 wait, these managers have an 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:47.120 ulterior motive, they want to motivate me 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:48.560 to work harder and bring in more 00:08:48.560 --> 00:08:50.800 donations. And so you know, 00:08:50.800 --> 00:08:52.959 I don't really buy into this whole story 00:08:52.959 --> 00:08:54.399 they're telling me. 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:56.160 So what some of the leaders did then was 00:08:56.160 --> 00:08:58.320 they actually outsourced inspiration and 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:00.000 they said okay, you know what, why do we 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:02.160 have to be the megaphone? What if instead, 00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:04.240 we bring in some scholarship students 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:05.600 who could talk about being the 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:07.760 first-hand beneficiaries of the money 00:09:07.760 --> 00:09:09.680 that's being raised by this call center. 00:09:09.680 --> 00:09:11.279 And so we ended up designing some 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:13.360 experiments together and lo and behold 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:15.519 it turned out that that message was much 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:17.519 more compelling coming from the end user 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:19.920 who could say look, you know, I might 00:09:19.920 --> 00:09:22.240 not have been able to afford tuition and 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:24.160 because of the work that you all do, I am 00:09:24.160 --> 00:09:26.720 in college today and really show that 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:28.160 sense of appreciation as opposed to 00:09:28.160 --> 00:09:29.920 managers doing it themselves. And so I 00:09:29.920 --> 00:09:31.360 think sometimes one of the best ways to 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:34.080 energize people is to shut up, 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.959 and say instead let me find the you know, if 00:09:36.959 --> 00:09:38.640 I've got a mission here, it's probably 00:09:38.640 --> 00:09:40.160 affecting some group of clients or 00:09:40.160 --> 00:09:42.800 customers or patients or end users, and 00:09:42.800 --> 00:09:44.320 let me bring their voices front and 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:45.440 center. 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:47.200 Tom Bilyeu: Yeah, I love that notion of sometimes 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:49.040 what you need to do is listen. That's one 00:09:49.040 --> 00:09:50.640 of my rules about being a leader is you 00:09:50.640 --> 00:09:53.440 really have to listen. I read Nelson 00:09:53.440 --> 00:09:55.600 Mandela's extraordinary book Long Walk 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:57.120 To Freedom, and in that he talks about 00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:59.760 his father who was sort of a local 00:09:59.760 --> 00:10:02.959 chief in his village, and he said that 00:10:02.959 --> 00:10:04.640 he would always listen before he would 00:10:04.640 --> 00:10:05.760 speak and he would make sure that 00:10:05.760 --> 00:10:08.240 everybody else had their opportunity to 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:11.120 air their ideas, to air their grievances, 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.360 and only after that would he come in and 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:14.800 say okay here's what I think that we 00:10:14.800 --> 00:10:16.800 need to do to move forward. So I'm a big 00:10:16.800 --> 00:10:18.079 believer when you read something, if it 00:10:18.079 --> 00:10:19.519 hits you and you think that this is a 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:20.720 useful thing that you should be deploying, 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:22.160 that you deploy it immediately. Adam Grant: I love 00:10:22.160 --> 00:10:24.079 the reference to Mandela because the 00:10:24.079 --> 00:10:25.519 one thing that's always stuck with me 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:27.279 from his writing is the idea that a 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:28.959 leader is like a shepherd. 00:10:28.959 --> 00:10:30.959 If you watch a shepherd with a flock, 00:10:30.959 --> 00:10:33.360 the shepherd is rarely out front, 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:35.680 right? You will often see a bunch of 00:10:35.680 --> 00:10:37.440 sheep leading the way and the shepherd 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.360 is kind of taking care of the stragglers. 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:40.399 There's a great organizational 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:42.399 psychologist, Victor Vroom, 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:44.240 who incidentally his license plate says NOTE Paragraph 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:46.908 vroom on it which is just such a fun- Tom Bilyeu: How could it not? 00:10:46.908 --> 00:10:48.691 Adam Grant: A fun detail, right? Tom Bilyeu: How could it not? 00:10:48.691 --> 00:10:50.480 Adam Grant: I would do that if that were my name, so 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:52.079 one of the things that Victor studied 00:10:52.079 --> 00:10:54.320 for years was the tension between 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:55.519 being a directive leader and a 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:57.040 participative leader. 00:10:57.040 --> 00:10:58.560 And he said one of the fundamental 00:10:58.560 --> 00:11:00.800 mistakes that a lot of leaders make is 00:11:00.800 --> 00:11:02.800 they develop a style and then they 00:11:02.800 --> 00:11:05.120 stick to that style, but the whole point 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:06.800 of leadership is flexibility and 00:11:06.800 --> 00:11:09.279 adaptability. And so you can't just say 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:11.200 well I'm either an empowering 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:13.440 leader or I'm more of an authoritative 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:15.040 leader, you actually have to be willing 00:11:15.040 --> 00:11:16.320 to adjust your style to fit the 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:17.440 situation. 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:19.120 And so what he was really interested in 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:21.760 is how do you flex effectively and he 00:11:21.760 --> 00:11:22.560 found that there are a bunch of 00:11:22.560 --> 00:11:24.320 conditions that really matter, a few that 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:25.680 stood out for me. 00:11:25.680 --> 00:11:26.560 One, 00:11:26.560 --> 00:11:28.800 relative expertise is huge, right? so when 00:11:28.800 --> 00:11:30.399 i look at effective leaders one of the 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:32.480 things i see over and over again is they 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:33.680 know what they know they know what they 00:11:33.680 --> 00:11:35.440 don't know and in situations where they 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:36.959 have more knowledge than their team 00:11:36.959 --> 00:11:38.959 they're comfortable in the driver's seat 00:11:38.959 --> 00:11:40.000 when they don't know what they're 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:42.000 talking about they'll step back and move 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:43.519 into the passenger seat 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.240 um some others were around getting by 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:48.079 and saying okay you know the more 00:11:48.079 --> 00:11:50.320 critical it is for people to you know to 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:51.920 really get behind this mission the more 00:11:51.920 --> 00:11:54.079 i need to hear their voices and and give 00:11:54.079 --> 00:11:55.920 them a say if people are already bought 00:11:55.920 --> 00:11:58.160 in then you know then i can i can kind 00:11:58.160 --> 00:11:59.200 of lead 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:01.279 um and i think that when i think about 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:02.240 leaders who've done this really 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:03.839 effectively the the examples that come 00:12:03.839 --> 00:12:06.079 to mind all follow a common meeting 00:12:06.079 --> 00:12:08.399 structure which is to open up by saying 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:10.560 look here's the objective of the meeting 00:12:10.560 --> 00:12:12.079 does anybody have any feedback on that 00:12:12.079 --> 00:12:14.079 before we go forward okay once we're 00:12:14.079 --> 00:12:15.440 aligned on the objective now i want to 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:16.639 go around and hear everybody's 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:19.120 independent view before i share mine and 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:20.320 then at the end i'm going to try to 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.560 synthesize add my perspective and then 00:12:22.560 --> 00:12:24.480 move us toward a decision and what i 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:26.079 like about that is the leader is still 00:12:26.079 --> 00:12:28.320 providing some guidance and direction 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:30.399 but the leader is actually not 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:32.240 disclosing hey you know here's where i 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:34.800 stand and that way we don't run into 00:12:34.800 --> 00:12:37.120 this conformity or group thing problem 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:40.000 i'd like to effect where the highest 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:41.839 paid person's opinion the moment that's 00:12:41.839 --> 00:12:43.600 known everyone wants to jump on the 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:44.880 bandwagon 00:12:44.880 --> 00:12:46.639 yeah you you cut out right as you said 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:47.920 it but it's the hippo effect if i 00:12:47.920 --> 00:12:49.200 remember correctly i just want to make 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.120 sure people hear that such a interesting 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:53.440 concept so we we hit the first part of 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:56.079 your leadership which is super powerful 00:12:56.079 --> 00:12:58.320 now talk to me about skills like what 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:00.079 are skills that a leader should be 00:13:00.079 --> 00:13:01.440 developing 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:03.279 yeah so when i break down leadership 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:05.279 into skills i think obviously 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:06.720 decision-making skills are critical we 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:08.800 started talking about those already um 00:13:08.800 --> 00:13:10.560 and i think decision-making skills have 00:13:10.560 --> 00:13:11.680 to do with being willing to hear 00:13:11.680 --> 00:13:13.600 dissenting views right being willing to 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.320 confront perspectives that maybe bruise 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:17.839 your ego a little bit 00:13:17.839 --> 00:13:19.760 in order to learn and then in order to 00:13:19.760 --> 00:13:21.120 gather better information and make 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.120 better choices can you give people an 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:26.079 example because this may be the most the 00:13:26.079 --> 00:13:27.760 thing that i've taken most deeply away 00:13:27.760 --> 00:13:30.720 from your work is this because this dude 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:32.480 of all the powerful things that you have 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:33.920 already said and will say in the rest of 00:13:33.920 --> 00:13:36.240 this time this how to 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:37.760 improve yourself 00:13:37.760 --> 00:13:39.920 to me is is at the the foundation of the 00:13:39.920 --> 00:13:43.279 human experience so 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:45.839 why have you become so 00:13:45.839 --> 00:13:48.480 dogged in your pursuit of 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:50.639 critical feedback 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:52.959 i mean from my perspective it's the only 00:13:52.959 --> 00:13:55.600 way you get better if if people just 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:57.199 praise you over and over again you're 00:13:57.199 --> 00:13:58.560 only going to repeat the excellence 00:13:58.560 --> 00:13:59.839 you've already achieved 00:13:59.839 --> 00:14:01.440 and you hit a plateau and then you're 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.760 you're done like great how exciting is 00:14:03.760 --> 00:14:06.399 it to just say okay i i peaked already 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:08.000 i'm gonna just try to maintain that 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.079 level uh what i want to do is i want to 00:14:10.079 --> 00:14:11.360 keep getting better 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:14.000 and i think to me it's it's so much 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:16.639 better to be on an upward trajectory 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.800 than it is to you know to flatline at 00:14:18.800 --> 00:14:21.760 some level uh or to stagnate and so 00:14:21.760 --> 00:14:23.519 i i think that that requires short-term 00:14:23.519 --> 00:14:25.199 sacrifices and it's a little bit like 00:14:25.199 --> 00:14:27.199 the you know the professional version of 00:14:27.199 --> 00:14:29.360 what you just you described you know in 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:31.839 a personal relationship which is if i 00:14:31.839 --> 00:14:33.839 want to if i want to achieve whatever 00:14:33.839 --> 00:14:35.600 potential i'm capable of 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:37.839 i have to be willing to hurt myself uh 00:14:37.839 --> 00:14:39.760 in the moment in order to you know to be 00:14:39.760 --> 00:14:41.360 a little bit stronger tomorrow i mean 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:42.800 it's a lot like weight training right 00:14:42.800 --> 00:14:44.800 you you know you have to tear a muscle 00:14:44.800 --> 00:14:46.639 in order to build it into you know into 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:48.320 a stronger muscle and so 00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:49.680 i feel like we should think about our 00:14:49.680 --> 00:14:51.519 skills and our capabilities the same way 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:52.800 that we do 00:14:52.800 --> 00:14:55.600 you know our bodies in that sense so 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:57.040 i guess this is something i learned 00:14:57.040 --> 00:14:59.120 first as an athlete not a real athlete 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:01.680 mind you just a springboard diver but 00:15:01.680 --> 00:15:03.040 i've seen footage of your springboard 00:15:03.040 --> 00:15:05.279 diving it's pretty impressive uh it 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:06.880 would be a lot more impressive if i was 00:15:06.880 --> 00:15:09.120 a little bit more talented and a little 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:10.160 bit less 00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:12.880 less stubborn but one of the things that 00:15:12.880 --> 00:15:15.920 i i learned as a diver right away was i 00:15:15.920 --> 00:15:18.480 couldn't see myself in the air right and 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:20.560 so what i would feel when i was flipping 00:15:20.560 --> 00:15:22.399 or twisting or even when i was entering 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:24.160 the water was completely different in 00:15:24.160 --> 00:15:26.240 many cases from what the judges would 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:27.040 see 00:15:27.040 --> 00:15:29.360 and so you know very early on i became 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.160 extremely dependent on my coach and then 00:15:32.160 --> 00:15:34.800 also on video to really try to process 00:15:34.800 --> 00:15:36.800 the disconnect between what i thought i 00:15:36.800 --> 00:15:39.519 was doing and what was coming across 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:42.399 and that as i moved into you know into 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:45.120 work life that became sort of a metaphor 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.360 for what we all deal with um you know i 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:49.440 think we definitely have we all have 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:51.199 bright spots right which are strengths 00:15:51.199 --> 00:15:53.360 we can't see but we have also lots of 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:54.880 blind spots which are weaknesses that we 00:15:54.880 --> 00:15:57.440 don't have have access to and so what i 00:15:57.440 --> 00:15:59.360 wanted was the clearest possible rear 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.920 view mirror to say if i can't see in 00:16:01.920 --> 00:16:03.680 that then you know i can't really figure 00:16:03.680 --> 00:16:04.880 out what i need to learn and what i need 00:16:04.880 --> 00:16:06.399 to get better at so 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:08.320 um i started doing this in the classroom 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:09.600 where you know i would just have 00:16:09.600 --> 00:16:12.160 students fill out feedback forms first 00:16:12.160 --> 00:16:13.600 when i gave guest lectures then when i 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:15.600 started teaching classes i just said 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:17.120 tell me everything you want me to do 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:18.880 more of and everything you want me to 00:16:18.880 --> 00:16:19.680 change 00:16:19.680 --> 00:16:20.720 and then i would just share all the 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:22.399 feedback with them verbatim which was my 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:24.079 own version of radical transparency i 00:16:24.079 --> 00:16:26.399 guess and then we can have a thoughtful 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:28.160 conversation about how i can fix those 00:16:28.160 --> 00:16:30.639 problems and improve upon those you know 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:32.639 those areas of weakness and that became 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.399 a conversation that really turned the 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:36.560 students i was teaching into my coaches 00:16:36.560 --> 00:16:38.480 which was immensely helpful and made me 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.399 much less awful at public speaking than 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:42.959 i was when i started dude i love that 00:16:42.959 --> 00:16:44.320 going back to what you were saying about 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:45.839 in athletics 00:16:45.839 --> 00:16:48.160 so i used to skateboard i will put that 00:16:48.160 --> 00:16:49.360 very lightly 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:51.040 i used to enjoy standing on a board with 00:16:51.040 --> 00:16:52.959 four wheels is probably a more accurate 00:16:52.959 --> 00:16:54.639 description and i remember trying to 00:16:54.639 --> 00:16:56.800 learn how to ollie and i'd finally 00:16:56.800 --> 00:16:58.240 gotten good where i could all eat pretty 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:01.040 high i was really proud of it and then 00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:02.560 the kids that i was skating with are 00:17:02.560 --> 00:17:04.480 like you do know that your back wheels 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:06.000 never leave the ground right and i was 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:06.799 like 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:09.119 what what are you talking about that 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:11.359 that's not possible i'm all-ing hi i 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:12.880 legitimately did not believe them i'm 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:14.480 like when you talk about how it feels 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:15.760 inside versus what it actually looks 00:17:15.760 --> 00:17:17.119 like outside 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:19.280 i was like i can feel it man i'm like 00:17:19.280 --> 00:17:21.359 really doing this and so they said let 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:23.280 me film you and they filmed me and i 00:17:23.280 --> 00:17:24.880 wasn't only my front wheels were coming 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:27.520 off i could not fathom that that 00:17:27.520 --> 00:17:30.480 feedback was real and because of that 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:33.440 disconnect and so getting that objective 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:36.799 look at myself was really transformative 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:38.080 at the beginning you said that you'd be 00:17:38.080 --> 00:17:40.000 a better diver if you were less stubborn 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:41.679 what did you mean by that i remember one 00:17:41.679 --> 00:17:42.880 day i was i was just trying to do a 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:44.880 front dive with a half twist so you take 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:46.640 off you're going in the water and then 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:48.559 you kind of turn into a back dive 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:50.640 and i had i guess a mental image of 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.320 where the twist happened that defied the 00:17:52.320 --> 00:17:54.480 laws of physics and by the way my diving 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:56.480 coach was a physics teacher 00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:58.559 and i still argued with it right i was 00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:00.160 so sure that i was right because i felt 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:02.080 like i was turning over one way and he 00:18:02.080 --> 00:18:04.000 said okay i'm just gonna have to show 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:05.280 you the tape because you won't believe 00:18:05.280 --> 00:18:07.280 me and my teammates were making fun of 00:18:07.280 --> 00:18:09.440 me and you know i wasted an hour and a 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:11.520 half of that practice but that became a 00:18:11.520 --> 00:18:14.400 microcosm for a series of mistakes that 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:16.000 i was making which is i was so 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:18.160 determined to be right 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:19.679 that i was standing in my own way of 00:18:19.679 --> 00:18:22.080 getting it right and so i i decided i 00:18:22.080 --> 00:18:23.440 was going to be really quick moving 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:24.400 forward 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:26.080 to admit when i was wrong about 00:18:26.080 --> 00:18:27.919 something and then try to improve upon 00:18:27.919 --> 00:18:29.919 it and that's i guess that's become a 00:18:29.919 --> 00:18:32.400 metaphor for how i try to with my life 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:34.320 oh my god you have to talk about shane 00:18:34.320 --> 00:18:35.919 please tell us a story because it is so 00:18:35.919 --> 00:18:37.760 crazy and so perfect for how i think 00:18:37.760 --> 00:18:39.520 people should approach life 00:18:39.520 --> 00:18:41.039 yeah so 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:42.480 i think anybody who hasn't heard of 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:44.320 shane battier uh there's a reason for 00:18:44.320 --> 00:18:46.480 that um if you know if you don't follow 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:49.360 basketball closely uh shane shane was a 00:18:49.360 --> 00:18:52.320 superstar for his whole career uh he was 00:18:52.320 --> 00:18:53.919 the player of the year in high school he 00:18:53.919 --> 00:18:55.760 was the captain of the duke national 00:18:55.760 --> 00:18:57.200 championship team 00:18:57.200 --> 00:18:58.880 and then he got to the nba and 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:00.720 discovered that pretty much everybody 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:02.720 there was more physically talented than 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:03.840 he was 00:19:03.840 --> 00:19:05.200 people would complain that he was too 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:07.280 slow he couldn't dribble 00:19:07.280 --> 00:19:09.520 and this was a real liability right if 00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:10.720 you want to be one of a few hundred 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.000 people in the world who can play 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:14.240 professional basketball and so what 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:15.919 shane did this was first captured by 00:19:15.919 --> 00:19:18.080 michael lewis a wonderful article called 00:19:18.080 --> 00:19:20.000 the no stats all-star 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:21.760 was he said okay i'm going to master the 00:19:21.760 --> 00:19:23.760 intangibles and some of that is obvious 00:19:23.760 --> 00:19:26.080 right i'm going to dive for loose balls 00:19:26.080 --> 00:19:27.520 i'm going to you know i'm going to take 00:19:27.520 --> 00:19:28.960 shots that 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:30.400 that are really critical for the team 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:31.679 even though they don't bring me a lot of 00:19:31.679 --> 00:19:34.160 glory necessarily but he also said you 00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:36.400 know what i'm going to master statistics 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:38.160 and i'm going to find the one spot on 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:40.640 the court that you know that the guy i'm 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:42.559 guarding tonight can't shoot from and 00:19:42.559 --> 00:19:44.080 i'm gonna force him there 00:19:44.080 --> 00:19:46.080 and i'm also gonna figure out where you 00:19:46.080 --> 00:19:47.760 know where my game is optimized by 00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:49.520 studying what the gaps in my team are 00:19:49.520 --> 00:19:51.600 and then figuring out how i can film 00:19:51.600 --> 00:19:53.120 and if you think about that that is the 00:19:53.120 --> 00:19:55.200 nexus of you know of generosity and 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.760 humility right shane is asking how do i 00:19:57.760 --> 00:19:59.600 make my team better right it's not about 00:19:59.600 --> 00:20:01.440 me i want to i want to contribute to a 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:02.799 championship team 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:06.400 and he's asking how do i reinvent myself 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:08.080 in order to you know to become the 00:20:08.080 --> 00:20:10.160 player who adds that kind of value 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:11.679 and you know if you look at the data he 00:20:11.679 --> 00:20:13.760 was one of the most effective players on 00:20:13.760 --> 00:20:15.840 a court in the sense that there's a huge 00:20:15.840 --> 00:20:17.520 discrepancy between how well a team 00:20:17.520 --> 00:20:19.679 performs when he's on the bench versus 00:20:19.679 --> 00:20:21.120 when he's playing 00:20:21.120 --> 00:20:23.039 even though he doesn't have you know a 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.120 crazy number of points scored or assists 00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:27.520 or rebounds or shots blocked 00:20:27.520 --> 00:20:28.880 and i think that that's that's something 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:30.480 we need in every team 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:31.760 i think it's you know it's somebody 00:20:31.760 --> 00:20:33.679 who's there to say there is no task 00:20:33.679 --> 00:20:35.200 that's beneath me 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:37.360 and if the leader is that person that 00:20:37.360 --> 00:20:40.159 has a huge cascading effect 00:20:40.159 --> 00:20:41.919 dude that like you want to talk about 00:20:41.919 --> 00:20:43.760 something that leaders need to be able 00:20:43.760 --> 00:20:45.200 to do it's 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:46.880 nothing is beneath you another stat in 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:47.919 basketball that you've talked about 00:20:47.919 --> 00:20:49.440 which is teams that have the most 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:51.679 all-stars tend to perform the worst 00:20:51.679 --> 00:20:52.960 which i think is is really pretty 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:54.400 interesting if you have a whole team of 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:55.600 all-stars 00:20:55.600 --> 00:20:57.520 they're less likely to want to do that 00:20:57.520 --> 00:20:59.039 right everybody wants to take the 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:01.280 game-winning shot and so yeah their are 00:21:01.280 --> 00:21:04.080 studies both in basketball as well as in 00:21:04.080 --> 00:21:05.840 in professional soccer 00:21:05.840 --> 00:21:08.400 showing that if you have a team of more 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:10.000 than about 60 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:12.559 superstars your odds of winning a 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:14.000 championship or having a highly 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.480 successful season go down because you're 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:18.480 missing the role players and so whenever 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:20.960 i hear a ceo say well i only hire a 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:22.880 players i think well you know what 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.360 there's a lot of important work that a 00:21:25.360 --> 00:21:27.200 players don't want to do and so i think 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:28.960 that's the wrong mentality i think the 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:31.120 evidence would tell us that an a team is 00:21:31.120 --> 00:21:33.360 actually composed of a and b and c 00:21:33.360 --> 00:21:35.360 players i am so desperate to get phil 00:21:35.360 --> 00:21:36.720 jackson on the show i don't know if you 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.919 read his book 11 rings but oh man when 00:21:39.919 --> 00:21:41.440 he talks about how 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:43.200 we weren't winning championships when 00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:45.039 jordan was just the best player in the 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:47.120 nba we started winning championships 00:21:47.120 --> 00:21:49.120 when he became a leader and when he 00:21:49.120 --> 00:21:51.360 realized you can't just punch people in 00:21:51.360 --> 00:21:53.600 the face and hope that that is going to 00:21:53.600 --> 00:21:55.360 take you like that it will inspire them 00:21:55.360 --> 00:21:57.520 to elevate their game he was like you 00:21:57.520 --> 00:21:59.039 have got to find a way to connect with 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:00.960 these guys to bring them together and he 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:02.559 said when i was able to focus him on 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:04.320 leadership and really being a leader 00:22:04.320 --> 00:22:06.000 then we start taking off and he was like 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.480 look he was still michael he was still 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:10.640 super hardcore but 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.640 in recognizing that he wasn't going to 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.600 be able to win by himself um and you 00:22:15.600 --> 00:22:16.720 know i think that speaks to your 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.200 earliest point about the best leaders 00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:21.600 being servant leaders and being able to 00:22:21.600 --> 00:22:23.360 um recognize how they have to give and 00:22:23.360 --> 00:22:24.960 not just take is pretty extraordinary 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:26.559 yeah one of the the questions i've 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:27.919 gotten really interested in lately is 00:22:27.919 --> 00:22:29.760 the question of leader emergence so 00:22:29.760 --> 00:22:31.679 you've got a team uh and you have 00:22:31.679 --> 00:22:33.760 different levels of ability um and then 00:22:33.760 --> 00:22:35.200 you know somebody steps up and becomes 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:37.760 the the informal leader what drives that 00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:39.039 and you know sometimes it's just the 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:40.480 most competent person 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.400 but often it's it's what psychologists 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:44.640 would call prototypicality which is to 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:46.559 say what does the group stand for and 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:48.799 then who's the person who's most likely 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.280 to exemplify uh the essence or the 00:22:51.280 --> 00:22:53.039 identity of the group and 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:54.640 i think that's that's something that 00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:56.240 very few people stop to think through 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:57.760 when you know when they either start a 00:22:57.760 --> 00:22:59.919 new job or when they build a team is to 00:22:59.919 --> 00:23:01.919 say okay if i were to make a list of the 00:23:01.919 --> 00:23:03.919 values that are distinctive central and 00:23:03.919 --> 00:23:06.960 enduring to this team or to this company 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:08.640 what are they and then how do i make 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:10.720 sure that i represent the most core 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:12.960 values all right now we have to talk and 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:14.640 i fear that i'm misremembering the words 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:16.480 you use but cognitive entrenchment 00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:17.760 that's close 00:23:17.760 --> 00:23:19.679 um so 00:23:19.679 --> 00:23:21.679 that's the phrase when i think about 00:23:21.679 --> 00:23:23.280 people getting stuck because humans hate 00:23:23.280 --> 00:23:24.880 change as you were saying what larry 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:26.640 page said i was like oh good luck man 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:28.640 like people really hate change um but 00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:30.799 it's such a powerful idea so 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:33.039 how do you deal with cognitive 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:34.720 entrenchment 00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:36.159 so when i think about cognitive 00:23:36.159 --> 00:23:37.760 entrenchment there was a brilliant paper 00:23:37.760 --> 00:23:39.520 that eric dain wrote about this and he 00:23:39.520 --> 00:23:41.200 said look you know we we generally 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:43.120 assume that the more expertise you gain 00:23:43.120 --> 00:23:45.039 the more creative you're going to be and 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:46.400 yet if you study the relationship 00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:48.320 between expertise and creativity it's 00:23:48.320 --> 00:23:50.400 not linear it's curvilinear uh there's 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:52.159 such a thing as being too knowledgeable 00:23:52.159 --> 00:23:54.480 like wait how could that be wait i jus i 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:56.159 should i should stop learning 00:23:56.159 --> 00:23:58.240 no what he's saying is that oftentimes 00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.320 when you get really deep in a domain 00:24:00.320 --> 00:24:01.679 you start to take for granted 00:24:01.679 --> 00:24:03.600 assumptions that need to be questioned 00:24:03.600 --> 00:24:04.880 and you don't even know you're taking 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:06.799 them for granted you're like a fish that 00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:09.039 doesn't realize it's in water and there 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:10.480 are some really funny demonstrations of 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:13.200 this like expert bridge players if you 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:14.720 change the rules up on them they 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:16.559 actually perform worse than a lot of 00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:18.960 novices do or if you take really skilled 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:21.360 and experienced accountants if uh if you 00:24:21.360 --> 00:24:23.200 look at how they adjust to a tax law 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:25.440 they're slower to adapt than people who 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.279 are just learning the accounting trade 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:29.360 uh and you know those are examples of 00:24:29.360 --> 00:24:30.960 cognitive entrenchment right people get 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:32.320 they get sort of accustomed to a 00:24:32.320 --> 00:24:34.159 particular way of thinking and solving 00:24:34.159 --> 00:24:35.679 problems and then they don't want to 00:24:35.679 --> 00:24:36.880 undo that 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:39.279 and i worry a lot about that 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:40.960 i think that you know organizations 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:42.000 you're starting to talk about 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:43.919 organizations get entrenched too right 00:24:43.919 --> 00:24:45.520 this is the way we've always done it 00:24:45.520 --> 00:24:47.919 well that will never work around here 00:24:47.919 --> 00:24:49.760 and those those to me are are some of 00:24:49.760 --> 00:24:51.679 the great warning signs that a culture 00:24:51.679 --> 00:24:54.159 is in danger of groupthink um i think 00:24:54.159 --> 00:24:56.720 the first thing to do is to to run run 00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:58.559 the exercise of asking what's missing 00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.960 from our culture uh if you know if 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.679 there's a pattern of behavior a routine 00:25:03.679 --> 00:25:05.760 a way of thinking that we wish we had 00:25:05.760 --> 00:25:07.840 but we didn't what is it 00:25:07.840 --> 00:25:09.200 and then how do we go out and find 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:11.360 people who excel at that how do we 00:25:11.360 --> 00:25:13.520 collectively and you know adjust our 00:25:13.520 --> 00:25:14.880 behaviors a little bit to move in that 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:15.840 direction 00:25:15.840 --> 00:25:17.760 um i think ideo did this beautifully so 00:25:17.760 --> 00:25:20.960 you you know ideo of course tom um i um 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:22.320 i knew them originally as the the 00:25:22.320 --> 00:25:23.760 company that invented the mouse for 00:25:23.760 --> 00:25:26.080 apple uh and they've done all kinds of 00:25:26.080 --> 00:25:28.159 creative work since then as as a great 00:25:28.159 --> 00:25:30.559 design consultancy and after a while 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:31.760 they realized you know we have a lot of 00:25:31.760 --> 00:25:33.440 engineers and designers 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:34.799 but we're getting called into these 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:36.799 weird worlds and we're not really sure 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:38.480 how to solve the problems that we face 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:40.320 in those worlds like they were tasked to 00:25:40.320 --> 00:25:42.080 redesign a shopping cart in a grocery 00:25:42.080 --> 00:25:42.960 store 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.360 and then to reimagine sesame street as a 00:25:45.360 --> 00:25:47.919 tv show this is not mouse building 00:25:47.919 --> 00:25:49.440 anymore 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:51.760 we need to figure out how to how to 00:25:51.760 --> 00:25:54.000 learn about a new world really quickly 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:56.400 and so they actually created a new job 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.320 that was called anthropologists and they 00:25:58.320 --> 00:25:59.760 said look this is what anthropologists 00:25:59.760 --> 00:26:01.840 do for a living they go out into foreign 00:26:01.840 --> 00:26:03.440 cultures and they make sense of them and 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.520 they bring that understanding back 00:26:05.520 --> 00:26:07.200 and so they literally went and hired 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:08.559 anthropologists because they discovered 00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:09.919 there was a skill set they were missing 00:26:09.919 --> 00:26:11.679 in their culture which was very design 00:26:11.679 --> 00:26:13.520 and engineering focused and i think that 00:26:13.520 --> 00:26:15.600 exercise could be run in every company 00:26:15.600 --> 00:26:17.440 and it's a great way of identifying 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:18.880 those gaps and then not getting 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:20.799 entrenched what's what's your take how 00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:23.120 do you think about solving that problem 00:26:23.120 --> 00:26:26.880 so one i think everybody has to agree on 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:29.279 what their goal is so part of what i try 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:31.840 to do is 00:26:31.840 --> 00:26:33.600 make sure that core values that are 00:26:33.600 --> 00:26:35.360 innate to the person that we hire are 00:26:35.360 --> 00:26:37.520 already there so if somebody 00:26:37.520 --> 00:26:39.679 doesn't like i think that you have to 00:26:39.679 --> 00:26:41.679 filter to a large extent and so the 00:26:41.679 --> 00:26:42.880 question is what do you filter for and i 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:44.640 think most people filter for skill set 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:46.640 it's very easy to put on a resume 00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:49.039 it's much easier to test in an interview 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:51.919 but the thing that we filter for is do 00:26:51.919 --> 00:26:53.840 you have a growth mindset and i feel 00:26:53.840 --> 00:26:55.760 like that is one of the most fundamental 00:26:55.760 --> 00:26:57.440 things um i get asked a lot about like 00:26:57.440 --> 00:26:58.799 hey i want to be in a relationship like 00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:00.400 you and your wife like how do i do it 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:01.840 and i'm like 80 of the battle is 00:27:01.840 --> 00:27:04.159 selection and if lisa didn't have a 00:27:04.159 --> 00:27:05.919 growth mindset or i didn't have a growth 00:27:05.919 --> 00:27:07.440 mindset and we weren't willing to get 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.200 better and improve 00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:10.640 then it would be nightmarish and you end 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:11.360 up 00:27:11.360 --> 00:27:12.960 one of you grows typically and the other 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:14.240 doesn't and you know it becomes this 00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.000 real drama so looking for people that 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.240 have a growth mindset so at the core all 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:20.960 i have to do is appeal to that right so 00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:22.320 as you were talking about what people 00:27:22.320 --> 00:27:24.640 have to do to improve a culture 00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:26.080 my belief is 00:27:26.080 --> 00:27:27.679 your current skill set or your current 00:27:27.679 --> 00:27:28.960 culture however you want to think of it 00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:30.240 has already taken you as far as it's 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:32.400 going to take you so if you're happy 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:33.679 where you're at and like you said 00:27:33.679 --> 00:27:34.799 earlier and you're comfortable being in 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:37.120 that plateau forever then hey yay you 00:27:37.120 --> 00:27:39.840 already won but my thing is i'm not and 00:27:39.840 --> 00:27:41.279 certainly in a business if you're not 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:42.799 growing the odds of you getting 00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:45.200 supplanted by somebody who comes out of 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:47.679 left field with some new innovation that 00:27:47.679 --> 00:27:50.320 you're just gonna get beaten to death so 00:27:50.320 --> 00:27:53.039 i'm i appeal to those sort of just they 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:55.200 are the physics of being human they are 00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:56.640 the physics of running a company you 00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:59.679 have to be improving um as a person the 00:27:59.679 --> 00:28:01.039 meaning of life is to see how many 00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:02.799 skills or how much potential you can 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:04.720 turn into actual usable skills so it's 00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:06.159 like i would be asking all right as we 00:28:06.159 --> 00:28:08.080 try to evolve this culture and somebody 00:28:08.080 --> 00:28:09.200 offers an 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:11.120 idea i would say how does it make us 00:28:11.120 --> 00:28:13.840 better in any sort of measurable way um 00:28:13.840 --> 00:28:16.080 is it gonna help us innovate so that we 00:28:16.080 --> 00:28:18.399 don't get supplanted by a new player is 00:28:18.399 --> 00:28:20.480 it going to 00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:22.640 allow us to do more with less like what 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:24.799 what is the outcome that you're trying 00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:26.240 to get because i find that in life 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:28.880 people steer by a vague sense and you 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:31.200 have to migrate them away from a vague 00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:32.480 sense into something that is 00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:35.039 articulatable into a very specific goal 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.440 with a timeline how much exactly what 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:38.960 those three elements being critical to a 00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.279 goal and then having an informed 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:42.640 hypothesis about how to get there and 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:45.520 the informed is the key part and so 00:28:45.520 --> 00:28:46.799 we've broken down so what i call the 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.200 physics of progress and we've turned 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:50.640 everything into 00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:52.720 sort of a stateable formula which is the 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:55.840 most effective way to do insert goal is 00:28:55.840 --> 00:28:58.480 to insert what i call a lever action a 00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:00.559 binary thing that you either do or don't 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:03.200 do it isn't um incumbent upon the 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:05.039 outside world to give you anything it's 00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:06.640 like either we do this or we don't and 00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:08.960 so that's our informed hypothesis i know 00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:10.880 enough about it you know to say i think 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:13.120 this will work but i know enough about 00:29:13.120 --> 00:29:15.039 the realities of myself and the world to 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:16.960 know i can't guess at whether this will 00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:19.200 actually work i have to test it 00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:22.080 i love formulating that as a hypothesis 00:29:22.080 --> 00:29:24.080 because i i've seen so many companies 00:29:24.080 --> 00:29:26.720 get in the trap of of declaring the best 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:28.640 practices and then never questioning 00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:30.880 them until it's too late and i think 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:32.480 what you've just outlined is a really 00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:34.399 effective way to keep learning 00:29:34.399 --> 00:29:36.799 yeah and and at an institutional level 00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:37.919 it becomes 00:29:37.919 --> 00:29:41.120 harder because you have so many of the 00:29:41.120 --> 00:29:43.200 a company is not a nameless faceless 00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:45.840 entity it it is entirely the sum total 00:29:45.840 --> 00:29:47.840 of the actual human beings that make up 00:29:47.840 --> 00:29:50.640 that company so if at the individual 00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:52.720 level you have a 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.399 sickness which could be cognitive 00:29:54.399 --> 00:29:56.880 entrenchment then the organization is 00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:58.399 going to have that same sickness of 00:29:58.399 --> 00:30:01.200 cognitive entrenchment so it's 00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:03.679 trying to find a way to boil this down 00:30:03.679 --> 00:30:05.840 where everybody can take ownership of it 00:30:05.840 --> 00:30:08.799 and make those changes be focused on the 00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:10.880 same desired outcome which is constant 00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:13.200 self-improvement in our company 00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:15.200 otherwise you 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:17.360 there's so much inertia to staying the 00:30:17.360 --> 00:30:18.799 same you just won't be able to get out 00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.120 of it because everybody has that vague 00:30:21.120 --> 00:30:24.399 sense and and i find that's the the most 00:30:24.399 --> 00:30:27.360 prototypical human sickness is a vague 00:30:27.360 --> 00:30:29.440 sense i have like what do you want to do 00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:30.799 this is perfect to speak to an olympic 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:32.880 diver what do you want to do i want to 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.200 win a gold medal and that is where i 00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:36.640 promise you most people stop i want to 00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:38.960 win a gold medal awesome in what the 00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:42.559 olympics yes the olympics amazing summer 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:45.360 or winter summer fantastic 00:30:45.360 --> 00:30:47.760 swimming diving tennis like where are we 00:30:47.760 --> 00:30:49.360 at here and then you get all the way 00:30:49.360 --> 00:30:51.200 down to i want to be you know the 10 00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:53.520 meter um springboard champion or 00:30:53.520 --> 00:30:54.960 whatever i'm not even sure that's the 00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:57.039 thing but like you get the idea you you 00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:58.399 know exactly 00:30:58.399 --> 00:31:02.000 would scare the hell out of everyone 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.640 so you you know specifically what you 00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:05.840 want to do and therefore you know 00:31:05.840 --> 00:31:07.120 specifically what you have to get good 00:31:07.120 --> 00:31:08.880 at 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:10.159 do you ever feel like people get 00:31:10.159 --> 00:31:13.440 exhausted by constant self-improvement 00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:14.880 um 00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:16.720 i i'll speak for myself i've never i 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:18.000 haven't been thoughtful enough to ask 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.000 that question so 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:22.720 where i come down on this is like you 00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:24.320 talking about okay somebody telling me 00:31:24.320 --> 00:31:26.799 that i move like a muppet it sucks in 00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:28.880 the short term but obviously your 00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:31.120 behavior tells me that you're focused on 00:31:31.120 --> 00:31:32.640 the long term like what can be gained 00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:34.320 from your improvement the fact that you 00:31:34.320 --> 00:31:36.159 become one of the most recognized 00:31:36.159 --> 00:31:37.840 thought leaders in the space the fact 00:31:37.840 --> 00:31:38.960 that you're seven years running the 00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:41.360 number one um ranked professor at 00:31:41.360 --> 00:31:43.600 wharton i mean it's the the results 00:31:43.600 --> 00:31:45.600 speak for themselves and so the way i 00:31:45.600 --> 00:31:48.080 think about it in my own life is i have 00:31:48.080 --> 00:31:49.919 so mentally conditioned myself to get a 00:31:49.919 --> 00:31:52.320 dopamine rush from somebody pointing out 00:31:52.320 --> 00:31:55.120 a flaw because i'm thinking you have no 00:31:55.120 --> 00:31:56.640 idea my 00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:58.240 adam i have the chills because i know 00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:00.720 how true what i'm about to say is i'm 00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:01.760 willing to 00:32:01.760 --> 00:32:03.919 actually take the pain of that and then 00:32:03.919 --> 00:32:06.880 go if i can improve this i'll now be a 00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:08.799 step farther ahead and on a long enough 00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:10.399 timeline i can win at anything because 00:32:10.399 --> 00:32:11.919 i'm i'm willing to do that constant 00:32:11.919 --> 00:32:13.519 iteration so 00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:14.880 there are definitely things that i do in 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:16.880 my life where for sort of brief periods 00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:18.080 of time i'm not thinking about getting 00:32:18.080 --> 00:32:19.840 better but honestly man they're they're 00:32:19.840 --> 00:32:22.720 really few and far between and i have 00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:24.240 i have this thing in my life where it is 00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:25.760 for 15 years because i was trying to 00:32:25.760 --> 00:32:27.120 build a business so i could build a film 00:32:27.120 --> 00:32:28.880 studio long story 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:30.720 i didn't watch movies because it it 00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.240 wasn't the skill that i needed at that 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:33.679 moment and then i found that that 00:32:33.679 --> 00:32:35.279 carried over even when i was building 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.360 the studio i wasn't watching movies 00:32:37.360 --> 00:32:38.880 anymore because i'd gotten into such a 00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:39.760 habit 00:32:39.760 --> 00:32:41.279 and i found that they didn't make me 00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:43.600 feel like i was getting better and so i 00:32:43.600 --> 00:32:45.120 couldn't do anything that didn't make me 00:32:45.120 --> 00:32:46.159 feel like i was getting better because 00:32:46.159 --> 00:32:47.679 the conditioning i'd put under myself to 00:32:47.679 --> 00:32:50.000 have this huge dopamine reaction so i 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:51.840 had to flip a switch and say i'm going 00:32:51.840 --> 00:32:53.919 to now start deconstructing this stuff 00:32:53.919 --> 00:32:55.360 and figuring out why it's good why it 00:32:55.360 --> 00:32:57.360 works and now dude i love watching 00:32:57.360 --> 00:32:59.440 movies more than i've ever loved it in 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.600 my life because before it was passive 00:33:01.600 --> 00:33:04.399 and now it's it's very proactive it's it 00:33:04.399 --> 00:33:06.640 feels far more creative and it feels 00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:08.320 like i'm i'm getting stronger which is 00:33:08.320 --> 00:33:09.679 my obsession 00:33:09.679 --> 00:33:12.240 yeah so two things on that one is i 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:13.919 think you just laid out beautifully 00:33:13.919 --> 00:33:15.440 robert eisenberger's theory of learned 00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:17.840 industriousness which is the idea that 00:33:17.840 --> 00:33:19.919 if if you look at kids who grow up to be 00:33:19.919 --> 00:33:22.320 extremely gritty and hardworking 00:33:22.320 --> 00:33:23.760 one of the things that that happens to 00:33:23.760 --> 00:33:25.760 them very early on is they get praised 00:33:25.760 --> 00:33:27.760 for effort over and over again or 00:33:27.760 --> 00:33:29.760 rewarded for effort over and over again 00:33:29.760 --> 00:33:31.519 and then the feeling of hard work itself 00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:33.600 takes on secondary reward properties and 00:33:33.600 --> 00:33:35.360 so it's like oh this hurts but it also 00:33:35.360 --> 00:33:37.279 feels good and i want to keep doing it 00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:38.559 because i've gotten rewarded for it in 00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:40.320 the past and it sounds like you've 00:33:40.320 --> 00:33:42.960 you've taken constructive criticism 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.200 as one of those reward keys uh that that 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:47.120 really motivates you to to keep getting 00:33:47.120 --> 00:33:48.000 better 00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:49.279 um the other thing that i thought was 00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:50.399 really interesting about what you just 00:33:50.399 --> 00:33:52.240 said is um i thought you were you were 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:53.440 actually going to go in a cognitive 00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:55.440 entrenchment direction on this uh when 00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:57.120 you said you didn't watch movies for a 00:33:57.120 --> 00:33:59.120 long period it reminded me of a simpsons 00:33:59.120 --> 00:34:00.720 writer that i uh that i interviewed once 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:02.880 george meyer who when he was writing for 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:04.880 the simpsons uh he refused to watch 00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:07.760 seinfeld because he was afraid that he'd 00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:10.399 fall into this clept amnesia trap and 00:34:10.399 --> 00:34:12.639 accidentally misremember one of their 00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:15.280 jokes as his and he just he didn't want 00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:16.800 to take that risk 00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:18.800 and i always feel like this is a 00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:20.399 tightrope walk because 00:34:20.399 --> 00:34:21.679 when you're you're trying to innovate in 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:23.520 an industry you can't be completely 00:34:23.520 --> 00:34:25.760 clueless about what everybody else is 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:27.440 doing otherwise you might miss something 00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:28.879 really important 00:34:28.879 --> 00:34:31.440 and yes blockbuster sears blackberry i'm 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:33.520 talking to you kodak 00:34:33.520 --> 00:34:34.480 but 00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:36.239 uh on the other hand if you're too 00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:37.839 obsessed with what your competitors are 00:34:37.839 --> 00:34:40.320 up to then you you get entrenched and 00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:42.800 it's harder to see with fresh eyes do 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:44.800 you have thoughts on how to stay on that 00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:46.879 tightrope and not fall off either side 00:34:46.879 --> 00:34:48.800 yeah so i would say this is where 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:50.320 self-awareness is going to be really 00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:51.440 really important i think there are 00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:53.280 people that um 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.520 they they maybe exist better in a vacuum 00:34:55.520 --> 00:34:58.880 or they have such strong intuition about 00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:01.359 something and i i believe exclusively in 00:35:01.359 --> 00:35:02.640 informed tuition i don't think you're 00:35:02.640 --> 00:35:04.400 born with intuition i think that it's 00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:06.240 developed just through your activities 00:35:06.240 --> 00:35:08.880 and you give a great example on this uh 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:11.760 with steve jobs and how he had informed 00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:13.599 intuition around technology but not 00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:14.960 around transportation and so what he 00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:16.960 does in apple is is life altering and 00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:20.079 his investment in segway was a waste so 00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:22.240 that i think is very very real but i 00:35:22.240 --> 00:35:23.920 think that like anything it's a spectrum 00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:25.359 and so there are some people maybe that 00:35:25.359 --> 00:35:27.040 intuition is developed more intensely or 00:35:27.040 --> 00:35:28.800 it's developed more quickly 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.119 invisibly whatever the case may be and 00:35:31.119 --> 00:35:32.640 then there are people who i'll call 00:35:32.640 --> 00:35:35.359 synthesizers so and that's me and if you 00:35:35.359 --> 00:35:37.040 put me on a desert island what i would 00:35:37.040 --> 00:35:39.440 come up with would probably not be very 00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:41.599 interesting but if you put me in an 00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:43.599 information rich environment i will make 00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:44.960 connections that are unlike the 00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:47.119 connections anybody else will make and i 00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:49.680 have cultivated a fearlessness over 00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:52.560 making unique connections and so i had 00:35:52.560 --> 00:35:55.040 to embrace that i am a synthesizer and 00:35:55.040 --> 00:35:57.760 that for me to take in all this data to 00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:01.040 read broadly like people that i think 00:36:01.040 --> 00:36:02.640 that confirm what i believe and people 00:36:02.640 --> 00:36:05.520 that violently oppose what i believe and 00:36:05.520 --> 00:36:07.599 all of that ends up coming together in a 00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:10.240 unique way in my own mind and so for a 00:36:10.240 --> 00:36:11.680 long time i was paralyzed because i felt 00:36:11.680 --> 00:36:13.280 like i'm never going to think a unique 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:15.440 thought and that was really discouraging 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:17.119 to me and if you've seen a beautiful 00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:19.200 mind that was at least as portrayed in 00:36:19.200 --> 00:36:21.680 the movie is what he struggled with was 00:36:21.680 --> 00:36:22.800 you know i'm never going to have an 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:25.280 original thought and it plagues him and 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:27.280 ends up being a driver for him and he 00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:28.800 ends up obviously having a very original 00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:30.800 thought and ends up really changing our 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:32.640 understanding of economics 00:36:32.640 --> 00:36:35.200 but for me what i found was i'm a 00:36:35.200 --> 00:36:37.920 process thinker so i need to i'm not i 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:39.280 don't sit in a vacuum and have these 00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:42.000 amazing breakthroughs i suffer and then 00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:44.240 have a breakthrough based on things that 00:36:44.240 --> 00:36:46.800 i've read that finally collide and i put 00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:48.800 them in a new context with a collision 00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:50.240 that maybe other people would make 00:36:50.240 --> 00:36:51.520 filtered through a value system that 00:36:51.520 --> 00:36:53.440 other people don't have and now i know 00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.079 how to move through in the world because 00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:58.720 i'm trying to satisfy my own emotional 00:36:58.720 --> 00:36:59.599 needs 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:01.920 and i'm a total slave to the physics of 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:03.920 the world so what actually moves me 00:37:03.920 --> 00:37:06.400 towards my goals so you you put all that 00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.040 together and i'm sort of unabashed 00:37:09.040 --> 00:37:11.440 about like i need to take in all this 00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:13.040 data i'm not worried about klepto 00:37:13.040 --> 00:37:15.359 amnesia i'm happy to celebrate and 00:37:15.359 --> 00:37:17.359 champion other people i 00:37:17.359 --> 00:37:19.520 i don't have those fears because i 00:37:19.520 --> 00:37:20.800 didn't need it to be my idea in the 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:22.720 first place so even when i think about 00:37:22.720 --> 00:37:24.640 writing like i when when he's a writer 00:37:24.640 --> 00:37:26.000 and he wants to say something original 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:27.520 he wants to be his own jokes i 00:37:27.520 --> 00:37:29.839 understand all of that for sure 00:37:29.839 --> 00:37:32.880 my thing as a writer is i'm i'm gonna 00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:34.560 tell like if i were to try to do 00:37:34.560 --> 00:37:37.040 seinfeld like literally i'm going to 00:37:37.040 --> 00:37:38.400 make seinfeld i'm going to do this just 00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:39.680 seinfeld i'm going to try to copy 00:37:39.680 --> 00:37:41.760 seinfeld as hard as i can as long as i 00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:44.320 trust my own intuition and i divert when 00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:46.560 i feel something is even funnier i'm 00:37:46.560 --> 00:37:48.000 trying to make it better it will just 00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:51.760 end up being so different that 00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:53.760 that gives me sort of that armor around 00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:56.000 not really worried about this 00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.280 and 00:37:57.280 --> 00:37:59.040 i would never intentionally go down that 00:37:59.040 --> 00:38:00.720 path of trying to mimic it so then once 00:38:00.720 --> 00:38:01.440 you 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:03.200 put in i'm really trying to take this 00:38:03.200 --> 00:38:06.240 somewhere new and i'm trusting my own 00:38:06.240 --> 00:38:08.560 unique quirks and i'm fearless about 00:38:08.560 --> 00:38:10.800 chasing them you get something that's 00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:11.920 original 00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:13.520 do you always trust your intuition 00:38:13.520 --> 00:38:14.880 though because when you were describing 00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:17.119 your hypothesis testing approach before 00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:18.720 it sounds like to me you're not 00:38:18.720 --> 00:38:21.280 following your gut you're testing it 00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:24.800 so i it's funny i wouldn't if i just 00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:27.359 gave the impression that i trust my 00:38:27.359 --> 00:38:29.359 instincts the answer is no so what i'm 00:38:29.359 --> 00:38:30.880 saying is when i'm writing something and 00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:32.320 i have something that bends me in a 00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:34.480 weird direction i'm going to follow that 00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:35.839 but the only thing i care about is how 00:38:35.839 --> 00:38:38.079 do people actually respond so what i 00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:39.839 used to tell my students is because i 00:38:39.839 --> 00:38:41.599 used to teach filmmaking i said you have 00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:43.839 you have a choice before you you you can 00:38:43.839 --> 00:38:45.359 be here to masturbate or you can be here 00:38:45.359 --> 00:38:46.720 to make love and if you want to 00:38:46.720 --> 00:38:48.160 masturbate go make some weird art house 00:38:48.160 --> 00:38:49.440 film that nobody understands that's 00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:50.720 absolutely fine like you're trying to 00:38:50.720 --> 00:38:53.200 please yourself respect but if you're 00:38:53.200 --> 00:38:54.560 here to make love you have to think 00:38:54.560 --> 00:38:56.560 about your partner and your partner is 00:38:56.560 --> 00:38:57.920 the audience and you have to understand 00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.720 how the things you do impact them and so 00:39:00.720 --> 00:39:03.280 your obsession has to be not what you 00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:04.960 intend to communicate but what is 00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:07.280 actually understood and so if you don't 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:08.400 understand that now you're in real 00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:10.720 trouble so i'm not trying to exist in a 00:39:10.720 --> 00:39:11.920 vacuum 00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:15.760 i'm i'm trying to say my hypothesis is 00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:17.760 that my unique way of interpreting this 00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:19.280 will actually have a bigger response 00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:20.880 than the other thing and i'm fearless 00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:22.720 enough to try it now if i get feedback 00:39:22.720 --> 00:39:24.720 that it didn't work then i'm going to 00:39:24.720 --> 00:39:27.680 adjust a hundred percent i'm just never 00:39:27.680 --> 00:39:29.599 afraid if i really feel that something 00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:31.520 is the right way i'm gonna do it and if 00:39:31.520 --> 00:39:33.040 i'm unsure i'll admit that i'm unsure 00:39:33.040 --> 00:39:34.720 and i'll try to get feedback from people 00:39:34.720 --> 00:39:36.400 to try to orient myself 00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:38.640 that's such a helpful edit because as a 00:39:38.640 --> 00:39:40.560 social scientist when when people say 00:39:40.560 --> 00:39:42.480 you know trust your intuition or follow 00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:44.240 your gut 00:39:44.240 --> 00:39:46.560 i generally don't trust things that i 00:39:46.560 --> 00:39:49.040 don't know where they came from and i 00:39:49.040 --> 00:39:50.960 want to know why why you're so confident 00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:52.720 in your intuition well let's actually 00:39:52.720 --> 00:39:54.560 talk about what intuition is it's just 00:39:54.560 --> 00:39:56.400 subconscious pattern recognition 00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:58.160 right you've you've detected some kind 00:39:58.160 --> 00:39:59.839 of connection that you're not fully able 00:39:59.839 --> 00:40:01.839 to articulate and don't you want to find 00:40:01.839 --> 00:40:03.440 out what that is right make the the 00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:05.760 pattern conscious so then you can test 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:07.200 whether the pattern that you're seeing 00:40:07.200 --> 00:40:09.680 now is actually relevant to the choice 00:40:09.680 --> 00:40:12.000 that you're about to make um you know 00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:14.079 steve jobs with the segway example is 00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:16.000 such a fun one for me because 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.560 he spent all those years in you know in 00:40:18.560 --> 00:40:20.720 the software worlds building up his 00:40:20.720 --> 00:40:23.119 intuition so that he could very quickly 00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:25.440 know whether design made sense or not he 00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:27.760 didn't have the subconscious pattern 00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:29.440 recognition calibrated for 00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:31.599 transportation and so you know he 00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:33.359 quickly got bowled over just by how 00:40:33.359 --> 00:40:35.280 brilliant the technology was 00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:36.640 and seemed to miss some of the user 00:40:36.640 --> 00:40:38.240 applications of it and how difficult it 00:40:38.240 --> 00:40:41.119 would be to write a segue down sidewalks 00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:42.640 um and i think a lot of people do this 00:40:42.640 --> 00:40:44.000 right they build up their intuition in 00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.839 one domain and then they just find they 00:40:45.839 --> 00:40:47.839 follow it blindly in another domain not 00:40:47.839 --> 00:40:49.520 realizing that the patterns that held in 00:40:49.520 --> 00:40:52.000 one world don't apply to the next one 00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:53.760 yeah no question 00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:56.400 dude i have thoroughly thoroughly 00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:58.319 thoroughly enjoyed this conversation i 00:40:58.319 --> 00:40:59.760 really enjoyed your works they are 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.240 incredible um i highly encourage people 00:41:02.240 --> 00:41:04.720 to get after it um and man in this time 00:41:04.720 --> 00:41:06.480 where i think that 00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:08.319 new leaders coming to the surface is 00:41:08.319 --> 00:41:09.680 going to be so critical for us 00:41:09.680 --> 00:41:11.599 navigating our way to 00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:14.079 a positive beautiful end i'm eternally 00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:15.599 grateful for everything that you write 00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:16.880 on the subject and helping people 00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:19.839 develop self-awareness and the skills um 00:41:19.839 --> 00:41:22.480 that they need to lead well uh amongst 00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:24.319 all the other amazing topics that you've 00:41:24.319 --> 00:41:26.400 covered so dude thank you for the way 00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:27.599 that you walk through the world where 00:41:27.599 --> 00:41:29.839 can people find out more about you 00:41:29.839 --> 00:41:32.400 um well first of all tom thank you i've 00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:34.800 heard many many rave reviews of your 00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:37.520 passion for self-improvement and i i 00:41:37.520 --> 00:41:39.520 think i underestimated just how curious 00:41:39.520 --> 00:41:41.440 you were even even having heard that 00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:43.839 from loss of mutual friends so it's it's 00:41:43.839 --> 00:41:45.520 really cool to see it in action and soak 00:41:45.520 --> 00:41:47.040 it up a little bit 00:41:47.040 --> 00:41:50.319 um on your question i would say i guess 00:41:50.319 --> 00:41:52.800 adamgrant.net is the place to start 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:55.440 i host a ted podcast called work life 00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:56.800 where i try to figure out how we can 00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:58.800 make work suck a little bit less and i 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:01.359 do a monthly newsletter called granted 00:42:01.359 --> 00:42:02.880 where i cover some of my favorite new 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.200 insights about work in psychology and 00:42:05.200 --> 00:42:06.800 would love to see people in either those 00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:08.960 places or hear them or have them hear me 00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:10.560 if they're interested 00:42:10.560 --> 00:42:12.720 i love it man all right everybody if you 00:42:12.720 --> 00:42:14.319 haven't already dive into this world you 00:42:14.319 --> 00:42:16.800 will be richly rewarded and speaking of 00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:18.079 rich rewards if you haven't already 00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:19.839 subscribed be sure to do so and until 00:42:19.839 --> 00:42:21.920 next time my friends be legendary take 00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:22.960 care 00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:24.640 the great irony is the way you build 00:42:24.640 --> 00:42:26.079 great companies 00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:28.160 is with an infinite mindset the way you 00:42:28.160 --> 00:42:31.200 build great companies is by prioritizing 00:42:31.200 --> 00:42:33.280 people before profit the way you build 00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:35.839 great companies is will before resources 00:42:35.839 --> 00:42:37.359 both things important but there has to 00:42:37.359 --> 00:42:41.240 be this general leaning