1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,389 [Music] 2 00:00:04,560 --> 00:00:06,960 Tom Bilyeu: Hey everybody, welcome to Impact Theory. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:08,720 Today's guest is organizational 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,679 psychologist Adam Grant. He's a four-time 5 00:00:11,679 --> 00:00:13,519 New York Times best-selling author who's 6 00:00:13,519 --> 00:00:15,839 been called one of the top 10 most 7 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:17,840 influential management thinkers of our 8 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,480 time. He's been ranked Wharton's number 9 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,039 one professor for seven years running 10 00:00:23,039 --> 00:00:24,800 and is one of the most sought after 11 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,439 speakers on the planet. Additionally, this 12 00:00:27,439 --> 00:00:29,599 former junior olympics diver was named 13 00:00:29,599 --> 00:00:31,760 by Fortune Magazine to their prestigious 14 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,320 40 under 40 list. And everyone from Bill 15 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,800 Gates and Richard Branson to J.J. Abrams 16 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:38,559 and Malcolm Gladwell have praised his 17 00:00:38,559 --> 00:00:40,719 work. And his Ted Talks together have a 18 00:00:40,719 --> 00:00:43,040 collective view count north of 20 19 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,840 million views. Adam, welcome to the show 20 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:46,640 man. 21 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:48,399 Adam Grant: Thanks for that Tom. I can assure you 22 00:00:48,399 --> 00:00:50,635 it's all downhill from here. Tom Bilyeu: That's hilarious. 23 00:00:50,635 --> 00:00:52,960 It's funny how hearing 24 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:54,800 one's accomplishments strung out like 25 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,680 that can sound very weird at times but 26 00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:59,199 it is pretty impressive man, like what 27 00:00:59,199 --> 00:01:01,680 you've been able to do is 28 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:03,440 pretty extraordinary. And what I love is 29 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:05,280 that it comes from 30 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,320 a pretty aggressive approach to getting 31 00:01:08,320 --> 00:01:10,240 people to tell you what you're doing 32 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,960 wrong so that you can get better. 33 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:15,360 And right now we are living through some 34 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,200 extraordinarily 35 00:01:18,479 --> 00:01:20,560 interesting times, the tables being 36 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,080 overturned, we're in the middle of a lot 37 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:23,520 of protesting. There's going to be just 38 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,680 tremendous change, hopefully, tremendous 39 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,320 change taking place. And to get us 40 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:30,799 through that kind of change well, we're 41 00:01:30,799 --> 00:01:32,240 obviously going to need a lot of 42 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,079 tremendous leadership. And I was 43 00:01:34,079 --> 00:01:35,680 wondering in your research, I know that 44 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,240 you've focused heavily on what are sort 45 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:39,520 of the universal principles of 46 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:40,799 leadership, 47 00:01:40,799 --> 00:01:42,159 and I'd love to start there, like what do 48 00:01:42,159 --> 00:01:44,799 you think makes for a great leader? 49 00:01:44,799 --> 00:01:46,880 Adam Grant: Oh where do we begin? How many hours do 50 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:47,376 you have Tom? 51 00:01:47,376 --> 00:01:48,880 Tom Bilyeu: As many as you'll give me 52 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,000 to be honest. Adam Grant: All right, I'm here. I 53 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,240 have not a lot else on my agenda today 54 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:55,200 so 55 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:56,880 um, you know when I think about 56 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:58,240 leadership, the first thing I want to do 57 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,479 is I want to break it down into values 58 00:02:00,479 --> 00:02:01,920 and skills. 59 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,159 And I think that for me the values are 60 00:02:04,159 --> 00:02:06,960 table stakes, right? So you can't lead if 61 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:08,800 you're a taker, rather than a giver. If 62 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:10,639 it's all about you as opposed to saying 63 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:12,879 look, I care more about my people and the 64 00:02:12,879 --> 00:02:14,640 mission we're trying to advance than I 65 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:16,800 do about glorifying myself. 66 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:18,239 So that would be the first value I'd put 67 00:02:18,239 --> 00:02:20,000 on the table. The second- Tom Bilyeu: So before we, before we move 68 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:21,599 off that one, just give people a quick Adam Grant: Yea. 69 00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:23,440 Tom Bilyeu: breakdown of givers versus takers, you 70 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:24,480 have a whole book on it. It's really 71 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,640 extraordinary. You talk about the 72 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:28,080 three types, I think it'd be useful for 73 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:29,440 people to understand that. 74 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:30,959 Adam Grant: Yeah, happy too. So when I think about 75 00:02:30,959 --> 00:02:32,400 your style of giving and taking the 76 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,239 question is just, when you interact with 77 00:02:34,239 --> 00:02:36,080 somebody new, what's your default 78 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,160 instinct? Is it to give and say what can 79 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,800 I do for you? To take and think about 80 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,120 what can you do for me? Or to match and 81 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,599 say okay can we trade some kind of favor? 82 00:02:45,599 --> 00:02:47,360 And what I found over and over again is 83 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,360 that most people default to matching. 84 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:51,120 They don't want to be too selfish or too 85 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,840 generous, and yet in the long run the 86 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:55,920 most successful leaders especially, are 87 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:57,440 the servant leaders 88 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:58,879 who are interested in helping others 89 00:02:58,879 --> 00:03:00,959 with no strings attached and who will 90 00:03:00,959 --> 00:03:03,120 put other people above their own narrow 91 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,360 self-interest. And so I think 92 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,040 that's just, that's a must-have in 93 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,680 leadership and it's far more rare than I 94 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,040 would like it to be. 95 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,720 Tom Bilyeu: Fair 96 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,239 Adam Grant: I think beyond that, I think a second 97 00:03:14,239 --> 00:03:15,599 attribute I look for in leaders 98 00:03:15,599 --> 00:03:18,560 value-wise is humility, to recognize 99 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,720 your shortcomings, but also be motivated 100 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,599 to overcome those shortcomings. It's 101 00:03:23,599 --> 00:03:25,200 not that helpful if you can say yeah, I 102 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,959 can make a list of the 19 103 00:03:26,959 --> 00:03:29,519 weaknesses that I have, but I don't care 104 00:03:29,519 --> 00:03:31,599 about fixing any of them, right? I think 105 00:03:31,599 --> 00:03:33,360 being an effective leader is heavily 106 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,840 about striving for self-improvement. 107 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:37,760 And the third value I'd put on the table 108 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,760 is integrity. It's a consistency 109 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,760 between your words and your deeds 110 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:43,519 and a lot of people will say look you 111 00:03:43,519 --> 00:03:45,440 know, you have to practice what you 112 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:47,360 preach. I actually think leaders should 113 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:49,760 be doing the reverse which is to say I 114 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,760 am only going to preach what I already 115 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:52,799 practice. 116 00:03:52,799 --> 00:03:54,720 And if we could just get leaders who 117 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,680 value generosity, humility, and integrity, 118 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,159 I would be overjoyed. And then we get to 119 00:04:00,159 --> 00:04:01,200 skills. 120 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,280 Tom Bilyeu: All right, so before we go on to skills, 121 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:04,720 let's talk about those in a little more 122 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,159 depth. So one of the things I found 123 00:04:06,159 --> 00:04:08,000 interesting in the book 124 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,560 is when you're talking about takers, 125 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,720 givers, matchers, that you said the 126 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:14,480 interesting thing about givers is that 127 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,079 they represent both ends of the spectrum, 128 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:18,079 so you see some of the least successful 129 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:19,759 people are givers and then the most 130 00:04:19,759 --> 00:04:21,918 successful people are givers. And so I'd 131 00:04:21,918 --> 00:04:24,000 love to know how to use it functionally 132 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,000 and when it sort of metastasizes and 133 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,520 becomes a problem. 134 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:28,960 Adam Grant: Yeah. So if you look at the differences 135 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:30,880 between failed and successful givers, 136 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,759 they break down into the question of, 137 00:04:33,759 --> 00:04:36,000 actually it's three questions. One, who do 138 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,479 you help? Two, when do you help? And three, 139 00:04:38,479 --> 00:04:39,919 how do you help? 140 00:04:39,919 --> 00:04:41,840 And what you see with failed givers is 141 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:44,560 they're basically self-sacrificing, so 142 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:46,479 they're helping all the people all the 143 00:04:46,479 --> 00:04:48,800 time with all the requests which is a 144 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,639 recipe for burnout. It's also an easy way 145 00:04:50,639 --> 00:04:52,400 to get burned by takers. 146 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,479 What you see with successful givers is 147 00:04:54,479 --> 00:04:56,080 they're more thoughtful about their 148 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,320 helping choices and they say look, I will 149 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,160 do whatever I can to support people who 150 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,240 are either generous or fair, right? Givers 151 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:03,919 or matchers. But if somebody has a 152 00:05:03,919 --> 00:05:05,440 history or reputation of selfish 153 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:06,479 behavior, 154 00:05:06,479 --> 00:05:08,400 then they might be a taker and so I'm 155 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:09,759 gonna be a little bit more cautious with 156 00:05:09,759 --> 00:05:11,520 them and set some boundaries. 157 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,039 One, because I don't want to reinforce 158 00:05:13,039 --> 00:05:15,360 that behavior and reward it. And two, 159 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:16,800 because they're going to take advantage 160 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,320 of me and prevent me from helping the 161 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:19,440 people who are going to pay it back and 162 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:20,800 pay it forward. 163 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:22,160 And then you also see that successful 164 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,880 givers are more likely to say okay, I'll 165 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,880 block out time from my own agenda and own 166 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,639 priorities because I want to be 167 00:05:28,639 --> 00:05:30,400 ambitious around my own goals, not just 168 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,800 around helping other people and yeah, if 169 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,720 it's an emergency I will show up and 170 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:36,639 help you, but otherwise I have some 171 00:05:36,639 --> 00:05:38,000 priorities that I need to take care of 172 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,560 here. So I will be available to you when 173 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:41,840 you know, when it's not going to be a 174 00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:43,360 huge cost to me. 175 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,039 And then, they're also careful about 176 00:05:45,039 --> 00:05:47,520 helping in ways that energize them and 177 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,600 where they add distinctive value. So you 178 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,360 see a lot of failed givers becoming 179 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,680 jacks of all trades and you know, pretty 180 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,600 soon they get a reputation for being 181 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:57,759 capable and helpful and then no good 182 00:05:57,759 --> 00:05:59,520 deed goes unpunished. 183 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,280 Whereas the successful givers are more 184 00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:02,639 likely to say look, I've got a couple 185 00:06:02,639 --> 00:06:05,280 ways of helping that I really like and 186 00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:07,199 that I excel at, and I'm going to focus 187 00:06:07,199 --> 00:06:08,960 on those so that I can add more value 188 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,120 and so when I do help, it's energizing to 189 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,120 me as opposed to exhausting. 190 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,039 Tom Bilyeu: One of the things I found in a company 191 00:06:15,039 --> 00:06:17,199 context and I'm not even sure yet how 192 00:06:17,199 --> 00:06:19,360 applicable this is to 193 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:21,280 the greater time that we're living 194 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:23,759 through right now, but when I think 195 00:06:23,759 --> 00:06:25,520 about trying to provide leadership in a 196 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,199 company context, it's a pretty 197 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:28,720 interesting dynamic when you talk about 198 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,120 humility where you do have to have a 199 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:32,720 degree of certainty, you have to have a 200 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,800 degree of like being able to step out 201 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,680 front to galvanize everybody's 202 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,759 attention, hopefully not on yourself, but 203 00:06:39,759 --> 00:06:41,520 you're galvanizing it on a vision, and 204 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,039 you have to get everybody pointed in the 205 00:06:43,039 --> 00:06:45,120 same direction. I often talk about one of 206 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:46,800 the things I think that leaders really 207 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,120 have to do is you have to understand how 208 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:50,960 to generate momentum, so we're in a 209 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,000 moment right now where if we can 210 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,759 capitalize on the sort of emotional 211 00:06:53,759 --> 00:06:55,280 momentum that we have, point it in a 212 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:56,960 direction that is 213 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:58,720 ultimately bringing everybody together 214 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,120 and is thoughtful in terms of the 215 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,840 long-term outcome that we want to have, 216 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:05,680 that could be such a powerful 217 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:06,960 moment. But 218 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,440 getting everybody to 219 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,440 move in the same direction 220 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:12,319 is 221 00:07:12,319 --> 00:07:14,560 is a difficult task without getting 222 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,960 people to stare at you. So you want them 223 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:18,560 to stare at the idea, right? You don't 224 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:19,759 want them to overfocus on you, but 225 00:07:19,759 --> 00:07:21,039 somebody has to present it, somebody has 226 00:07:21,039 --> 00:07:22,800 to present it with clarity and get 227 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,039 everybody going, keep them enthusiastic, 228 00:07:25,039 --> 00:07:27,840 keep that energy level up. And 229 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,000 so the type of person, and you've talked 230 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,280 really powerfully about this, the type of 231 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,720 person that is drawn to that can often 232 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,560 spill into the narcissistic, right? They 233 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,720 enjoy the attention and so some of what Adam Grant: Yea. 234 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,800 Tom Bilyeu: they're seeking is that. And I'm just 235 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,319 curious how, 236 00:07:42,319 --> 00:07:44,560 how somebody who really wants to help, 237 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,319 they really want to help sustain that 238 00:07:46,319 --> 00:07:47,840 momentum, they want to be a beacon of 239 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,680 hope in this time, 240 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,039 how do they make it about the mission 241 00:07:51,039 --> 00:07:53,039 and not about themselves? 242 00:07:53,039 --> 00:07:54,080 Adam Grant: I think that's such an important 243 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:55,759 question Tom and I love how you've 244 00:07:55,759 --> 00:07:57,599 highlighted that distinction. 245 00:07:57,599 --> 00:07:59,199 I think that you know, for me it comes 246 00:07:59,199 --> 00:08:01,520 down to promoting your ideas, not 247 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:02,800 yourself. 248 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:03,680 And 249 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:05,120 when I look at how leaders do that 250 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:06,560 effectively, one of the things that 251 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,400 really surprised me is sometimes the 252 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,879 message doesn't even come from them. 253 00:08:10,879 --> 00:08:12,400 So as an example, years ago I was 254 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,400 studying fundraising callers, and they 255 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,160 were trying to bring in donations to a 256 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:17,360 university. 257 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:19,360 And the leaders were trying to 258 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:20,879 motivate them because this is hard work, 259 00:08:20,879 --> 00:08:22,639 right? You interrupt people's dinner, 260 00:08:22,639 --> 00:08:24,319 you try to convince them that no your 261 00:08:24,319 --> 00:08:26,479 tuition was not enough, you should keep 262 00:08:26,479 --> 00:08:28,240 sending money into the university and 263 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,560 now you should get nothing back for that 264 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,519 donation. So they got yelled at a lot, 265 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:35,120 they you know, they shouldered a lot of 266 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:36,559 complaints. And 267 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,559 the leaders tried to talk about why the 268 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,159 money was important and where it was 269 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:42,159 going and the callers just they looked 270 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:43,360 at that and they said 271 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,360 wait, these managers have an 272 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,120 ulterior motive, they want to motivate me 273 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:48,560 to work harder and bring in more 274 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:50,800 donations. And so you know, 275 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,959 I don't really buy into this whole story 276 00:08:52,959 --> 00:08:54,399 they're telling me. 277 00:08:54,399 --> 00:08:56,160 So what some of the leaders did then was 278 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,320 they actually outsourced inspiration and 279 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,000 they said okay, you know what, why do we 280 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,160 have to be the megaphone? What if instead, 281 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,240 we bring in some scholarship students 282 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:05,600 who could talk about being the 283 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,760 first-hand beneficiaries of the money 284 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,680 that's being raised by this call center. 285 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:11,279 And so we ended up designing some 286 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:13,360 experiments together and lo and behold 287 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,519 it turned out that that message was much 288 00:09:15,519 --> 00:09:17,519 more compelling coming from the end user 289 00:09:17,519 --> 00:09:19,920 who could say look, you know, I might 290 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,240 not have been able to afford tuition and 291 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,160 because of the work that you all do, I am 292 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,720 in college today and really show that 293 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,160 sense of appreciation as opposed to 294 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:29,920 managers doing it themselves. And so I 295 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:31,360 think sometimes one of the best ways to 296 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,080 energize people is to shut up, 297 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,959 and say instead let me find the you know, if 298 00:09:36,959 --> 00:09:38,640 I've got a mission here, it's probably 299 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,160 affecting some group of clients or 300 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,800 customers or patients or end users, and 301 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,320 let me bring their voices front and 302 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:45,440 center. 303 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,200 Tom Bilyeu: Yeah, I love that notion of sometimes 304 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,040 what you need to do is listen. That's one 305 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:50,640 of my rules about being a leader is you 306 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,440 really have to listen. I read Nelson 307 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,600 Mandela's extraordinary book Long Walk 308 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:57,120 To Freedom, and in that he talks about 309 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,760 his father who was sort of a local 310 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,959 chief in his village, and he said that 311 00:10:02,959 --> 00:10:04,640 he would always listen before he would 312 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:05,760 speak and he would make sure that 313 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,240 everybody else had their opportunity to 314 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,120 air their ideas, to air their grievances, 315 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,360 and only after that would he come in and 316 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:14,800 say okay here's what I think that we 317 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:16,800 need to do to move forward. So I'm a big 318 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:18,079 believer when you read something, if it 319 00:10:18,079 --> 00:10:19,519 hits you and you think that this is a 320 00:10:19,519 --> 00:10:20,720 useful thing that you should be deploying, 321 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,160 that you deploy it immediately. Adam Grant: I love 322 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,079 the reference to Mandela because the 323 00:10:24,079 --> 00:10:25,519 one thing that's always stuck with me 324 00:10:25,519 --> 00:10:27,279 from his writing is the idea that a 325 00:10:27,279 --> 00:10:28,959 leader is like a shepherd. 326 00:10:28,959 --> 00:10:30,959 If you watch a shepherd with a flock, 327 00:10:30,959 --> 00:10:33,360 the shepherd is rarely out front, 328 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,680 right? You will often see a bunch of 329 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:37,440 sheep leading the way and the shepherd 330 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,360 is kind of taking care of the stragglers. 331 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:40,399 There's a great organizational 332 00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:42,399 psychologist, Victor Vroom, 333 00:10:42,399 --> 00:10:44,240 who incidentally his license plate says 334 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,908 vroom on it which is just such a fun- Tom Bilyeu: How could it not? 335 00:10:46,908 --> 00:10:48,691 Adam Grant: A fun detail, right? Tom Bilyeu: How could it not? 336 00:10:48,691 --> 00:10:50,480 Adam Grant: I would do that if that were my name, so 337 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,079 one of the things that Victor studied 338 00:10:52,079 --> 00:10:54,320 for years was the tension between 339 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:55,519 being a directive leader and a 340 00:10:55,519 --> 00:10:57,040 participative leader. 341 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:58,560 And he said one of the fundamental 342 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:00,800 mistakes that a lot of leaders make is 343 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,800 they develop a style and then they 344 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,120 stick to that style, but the whole point 345 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:06,800 of leadership is flexibility and 346 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,279 adaptability. And so you can't just say 347 00:11:09,279 --> 00:11:11,200 well I'm either an empowering 348 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,440 leader or I'm more of an authoritative 349 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,040 leader, you actually have to be willing 350 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:16,320 to adjust your style to fit the 351 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:17,440 situation. 352 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,120 And so what he was really interested in 353 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,760 is how do you flex effectively and he 354 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:22,560 found that there are a bunch of 355 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:24,320 conditions that really matter, a few that 356 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:25,680 stood out for me. 357 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:26,560 One, 358 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:28,800 relative expertise is huge, right? So when 359 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:30,399 I look at effective leaders, one of the 360 00:11:30,399 --> 00:11:32,480 things I see over and over again is they 361 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:33,680 know what they know, they know what they 362 00:11:33,680 --> 00:11:35,440 don't know and in situations where they 363 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:36,959 have more knowledge than their team 364 00:11:36,959 --> 00:11:38,959 they're comfortable in the driver's seat. 365 00:11:38,959 --> 00:11:40,000 When they don't know what they're 366 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,000 talking about they'll step back and move 367 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:43,519 into the passenger seat. 368 00:11:43,519 --> 00:11:46,240 Some others were around getting buy in 369 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,079 and saying okay, you know the more 370 00:11:48,079 --> 00:11:50,320 critical it is for people to you know, to 371 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:51,920 really get behind this mission, the more 372 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,079 I need to hear their voices and give 373 00:11:54,079 --> 00:11:55,920 them a say. If people are already bought 374 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,160 in, then you know, then I can kind 375 00:11:58,160 --> 00:11:59,200 of lead. 376 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,279 And I think that when I think about 377 00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:02,240 leaders who've done this really 378 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:03,839 effectively, the examples that come 379 00:12:03,839 --> 00:12:06,079 to mind all follow a common meeting 380 00:12:06,079 --> 00:12:08,399 structure which is to open up by saying 381 00:12:08,399 --> 00:12:10,560 look, here's the objective of the meeting. 382 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:12,079 Does anybody have any feedback on that 383 00:12:12,079 --> 00:12:14,079 before we go forward? Okay, once we're 384 00:12:14,079 --> 00:12:15,440 aligned on the objective, now I want to 385 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:16,639 go around and hear everybody's 386 00:12:16,639 --> 00:12:19,120 independent view before I share mine. And 387 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:20,320 then at the end I'm going to try to 388 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,560 synthesize, add my perspective, and then 389 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:24,480 move us toward a decision. And what I 390 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,079 like about that is the leader is still 391 00:12:26,079 --> 00:12:28,320 providing some guidance and direction, 392 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,399 but the leader is actually not 393 00:12:30,399 --> 00:12:32,240 disclosing hey, you know, here's where I 394 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,800 stand and that way we don't run into 395 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,120 this conformity or group think problem. 396 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,000 I'd like to [inaudible] where the highest 397 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,839 paid person's opinion, the moment that's 398 00:12:41,839 --> 00:12:43,600 known, everyone wants to jump on the 399 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:44,880 bandwagon. 400 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:46,639 Tom Bilyeu: Yeah. You cut out right as you said 401 00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:47,920 it, but it's the HIPPO effect if i 402 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:49,200 remember correctly, I just want to make 403 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,120 sure people hear that. it's such a interesting 404 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,440 concept. So we hit the first part of 405 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,079 your leadership which is super powerful, 406 00:12:56,079 --> 00:12:58,320 now talk to me about skills. Like what 407 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,079 are skills that a leader should be 408 00:13:00,079 --> 00:13:01,440 developing? 409 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,279 Adam Grant: Yeah. So when I break down leadership 410 00:13:03,279 --> 00:13:05,279 into skills, I think obviously 411 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:06,720 decision-making skills are critical, we 412 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:08,800 started talking about those already. 413 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,560 And I think decision-making skills have 414 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:11,680 to do with being willing to hear 415 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:13,600 dissenting views, right? Being willing to 416 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,320 confront perspectives that maybe bruise 417 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:17,839 your ego a little bit 418 00:13:17,839 --> 00:13:19,760 in order to learn, and then in order to 419 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,120 gather better information and make 420 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,120 better choices. Uh so- Tom Bilyeu: Can you give people an 421 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,079 example because this may be the most, the 422 00:13:26,079 --> 00:13:27,760 thing that I've taken most deeply away 423 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,720 from your work is this because this, dude, 424 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,480 of all the powerful things that you have 425 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:33,920 already said and will say in the rest of 426 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,240 this time, this how to 427 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:37,760 improve yourself 428 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:39,920 to me is at the foundation of the 429 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,279 human experience. So 430 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,839 why have you become so 431 00:13:45,839 --> 00:13:48,480 dogged in your pursuit of 432 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,639 critical feedback. 433 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:52,959 Adam Grant: I mean from my perspective, it's the only 434 00:13:52,959 --> 00:13:55,600 way you get better, right? If people just 435 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,199 praise you over and over again, you're 436 00:13:57,199 --> 00:13:58,560 only going to repeat the excellence 437 00:13:58,560 --> 00:13:59,839 you've already achieved, 438 00:13:59,839 --> 00:14:01,440 and you hit a plateau and then you're 439 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,760 done, like great. How exciting is 440 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,399 it to just say okay, I peaked already 441 00:14:06,399 --> 00:14:08,000 and I'm gonna just try to maintain that 442 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,079 level. What I want to do is I want to 443 00:14:10,079 --> 00:14:11,360 keep getting better 444 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,000 and I think to me it's so much 445 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,639 better to be on an upward trajectory 446 00:14:16,639 --> 00:14:18,800 than it is to you know to flatline at 447 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,760 some level or to stagnate. And so 448 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,519 I think that requires short-term 449 00:14:23,519 --> 00:14:25,199 sacrifices and it's a little bit like 450 00:14:25,199 --> 00:14:27,199 the you know, the professional version of 451 00:14:27,199 --> 00:14:29,360 what you just described you know, in 452 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,839 a personal relationship which is if I 453 00:14:31,839 --> 00:14:33,839 want to, if I want to achieve whatever 454 00:14:33,839 --> 00:14:35,600 potential I'm capable of, 455 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,839 I have to be willing to hurt myself 456 00:14:37,839 --> 00:14:39,760 in the moment in order to you know to be 457 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,360 a little bit stronger tomorrow. I mean 458 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:42,800 it's a lot like weight training, right? 459 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,800 You know you have to tear a muscle 460 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,639 in order to build it into you know, into 461 00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:48,320 a stronger muscle, and so 462 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:49,680 I feel like we should think about our 463 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,519 skills and our capabilities the same way 464 00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:52,800 that we do 465 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,600 you know, our bodies in that sense. So 466 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,040 I guess this is something I learned 467 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,120 first as an athlete, not a real athlete 468 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,680 mind you just a springboard diver, but- 469 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,040 Tom Bilyeu: I've seen footage of your springboard 470 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,279 diving, it's pretty impressive. 471 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:06,880 Adam Grant: It would be a lot more impressive if I was 472 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,120 a little bit more talented and a little 473 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,160 bit less, 474 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,880 less stubborn. But one of the things that 475 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,920 I learned as a diver right away was I 476 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,480 couldn't see myself in the air, right? And 477 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,560 so what I would feel when I was flipping 478 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,399 or twisting or even when I was entering 479 00:15:22,399 --> 00:15:24,160 the water was completely different in 480 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,240 many cases from what the judges would 481 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:27,040 see. 482 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,360 And so you know, very early on I became 483 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,160 extremely dependent on my coach and then 484 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,800 also on video to really try to process 485 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,800 the disconnect between what I thought I 486 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,519 was doing and what was coming across. 487 00:15:39,519 --> 00:15:42,399 And that, as I moved into you know, into 488 00:15:42,399 --> 00:15:45,120 work life, that became sort of a metaphor 489 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,360 for what we all deal with. You know, I 490 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,440 think we definitely have, we all have 491 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,199 bright spots, right, which are strengths 492 00:15:51,199 --> 00:15:53,360 we can't see, but we have also lots of 493 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:54,880 blind spots which are weaknesses that we 494 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,440 don't have access to, and so what I 495 00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,360 wanted was the clearest possible rear 496 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,920 view mirror to say if I can't see in 497 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:03,680 that then you know, I can't really figure 498 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:04,880 out what I need to learn and what I need 499 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,399 to get better at. So 500 00:16:06,399 --> 00:16:08,320 I started doing this in the classroom 501 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:09,600 where you know, I would just have 502 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,160 students fill out feedback forms, first 503 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:13,600 when I gave guest lectures then when I 504 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,600 started teaching classes. I just say 505 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,120 tell me everything you want me to do 506 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:18,880 more of and everything you want me to 507 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:19,680 change. 508 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:20,720 And then I would just share all the 509 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,399 feedback with them verbatim which was my 510 00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:24,079 own version of radical transparency I 511 00:16:24,079 --> 00:16:26,399 guess, and then we can have a thoughtful 512 00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:28,160 conversation about how I can fix those 513 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,639 problems and improve upon those you know 514 00:16:30,639 --> 00:16:32,639 those areas of weakness. And that became 515 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:34,399 a conversation that really turned the 516 00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:36,560 students I was teaching into my coaches 517 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,480 which was immensely helpful and made me 518 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,399 much less awful at public speaking than 519 00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:42,959 I was when I started. Tom Bilyeu: Dude I love that. 520 00:16:42,959 --> 00:16:44,320 Going back to what you were saying about 521 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:45,839 in athletics. 522 00:16:45,839 --> 00:16:48,160 So I used to skateboard, I will put that 523 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:49,360 very lightly. 524 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,040 I used to enjoy standing on a board with 525 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,959 four wheels is probably a more accurate 526 00:16:52,959 --> 00:16:54,639 description. And I remember trying to 527 00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:56,800 learn how to ollie and I'd finally 528 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,240 gotten good where I could ollie pretty 529 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,040 high, I was really proud of it. And then 530 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:02,560 the kids that I was skating with were 531 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,480 like you do know that your back wheels 532 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,000 never leave the ground, right? And I was 533 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:06,799 like 534 00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:09,119 what? What are you talking about? That, 535 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,359 that's not possible. I'm ollieing high. 536 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:12,880 I legitimately did not believe them. I'm 537 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:14,480 like, when you talk about how it feels 538 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:15,760 inside versus what it actually looks 539 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,119 like outside, 540 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,280 I was like I can feel it man, I'm like 541 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,359 really doing this. And so they said let 542 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,280 me film you and they filmed me and I 543 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:24,880 wasn't. Only my front wheels were coming 544 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,520 off. I could not fathom that that 545 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,480 feedback was real and because of that 546 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,440 disconnect and so getting that objective 547 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,799 look at myself was really transformative. 548 00:17:36,799 --> 00:17:38,080 At the beginning you said that you'd be 549 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,000 a better diver if you were less stubborn, 550 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,679 what did you mean by that? Adam Grant: I remember one 551 00:17:41,679 --> 00:17:42,880 day I was just trying to do a 552 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:44,880 front dive with a half twist. So you take 553 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,640 off, you're going in the water, and then 554 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,559 you kind of turn into a back dive. 555 00:17:48,559 --> 00:17:50,640 And I had I guess, a mental image of 556 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:52,320 where the twist happened that defied the 557 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,480 laws of physics and, by the way, my diving 558 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,480 coach was a physics teacher 559 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,559 and I still argued with him, right? I was 560 00:17:58,559 --> 00:18:00,160 so sure that I was right because I felt 561 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,080 like I was turning over one way and he 562 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,000 said okay, I'm just gonna have to show 563 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,280 you the tape because you won't believe 564 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,280 me. And my teammates were making fun of 565 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,440 me and you know, I wasted an hour and a 566 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,520 half of that practice, but that became a 567 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,400 microcosm for a series of mistakes that 568 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,000 I was making which is, I was so 569 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,160 determined to be right 570 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:19,679 that I was standing in my own way of 571 00:18:19,679 --> 00:18:22,080 getting it right. And so I decided I 572 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,440 was going to be really quick moving 573 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:24,400 forward 574 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,080 to admit when I was wrong about 575 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:27,919 something and then try to improve upon 576 00:18:27,919 --> 00:18:29,919 it and that's I guess, that's become a 577 00:18:29,919 --> 00:18:32,400 metaphor for how I try to live my life. 578 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,320 Tom Bilyeu: Oh my god, you have to talk about Shane. 579 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:35,919 Please tell us that story because it is so 580 00:18:35,919 --> 00:18:37,760 crazy and so perfect for how I think 581 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:39,520 people should approach life. 582 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,039 Adam Grant: Yeah. So 583 00:18:41,039 --> 00:18:42,480 I think anybody who hasn't heard of 584 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,320 Shane Battier, there's a reason for 585 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,480 that. If you know, if you don't follow 586 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,360 basketball closely, Shane was a 587 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:52,320 superstar for his whole career. He was 588 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:53,919 the player of the year in high school, he 589 00:18:53,919 --> 00:18:55,760 was the captain of the Duke national 590 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,200 championship team, 591 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:58,880 and then he got to the NBA and 592 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,720 discovered that pretty much everybody 593 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,720 there was more physically talented than 594 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:03,840 he was. 595 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,200 People would complain that he was too 596 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,280 slow, he couldn't dribble, 597 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,520 and this was a real liability, right, if 598 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:10,720 you want to be one of the few hundred 599 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,000 people in the world who can play 600 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,240 professional basketball. And so what 601 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,919 Shane did, this was first captured by 602 00:19:15,919 --> 00:19:18,080 Michael Lewis in a wonderful article called 603 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,000 the No-Stats All-Star, 604 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,760 was he said okay, I'm going to master the 605 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,760 intangibles. And some of that is obvious 606 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,080 right, I'm going to dive for loose balls, 607 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:27,520 I'm going to you know, I'm going to take 608 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:28,960 shots that, 609 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,400 that are really critical for the team 610 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:31,679 even though they don't bring me a lot of 611 00:19:31,679 --> 00:19:34,160 glory necessarily. But he also said you 612 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,400 know what, I'm going to master statistics 613 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,160 and I'm going to find the one spot on 614 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,640 the court that you know, that the guy I'm 615 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,559 guarding tonight can't shoot from and 616 00:19:42,559 --> 00:19:44,080 I'm gonna force him there, 617 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,080 and I'm also gonna figure out where you 618 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:47,760 know, where my game is optimized by 619 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,520 studying what the gaps in my team are 620 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,600 and then figuring out how I can fill. 621 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,120 And if you think about that, that is the 622 00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:55,200 nexus of you know, of generosity and 623 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,760 humility, right? Shane is asking how do I 624 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,600 make my team better, right? It's not about 625 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,440 me, I want to, I want to contribute to a 626 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:02,799 championship team. 627 00:20:02,799 --> 00:20:06,400 And he's asking how do I reinvent myself 628 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,080 in order to you know, to become the 629 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,160 player who adds that kind of value? 630 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,679 And you know, if you look at the data he 631 00:20:11,679 --> 00:20:13,760 was one of the most effective players on 632 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,840 a court in the sense that there's a huge 633 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,520 discrepancy between how well a team 634 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,679 performs when he's on the bench versus 635 00:20:19,679 --> 00:20:21,120 when he's playing, 636 00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:23,039 even though he doesn't have you know, a 637 00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:25,120 crazy number of points scored or assists 638 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:27,520 or rebounds or shots blocked. 639 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:28,880 And I think that that's something 640 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:30,480 we need in every team. 641 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:31,760 I think it's you know, it's somebody 642 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,679 who's there to say there is no task 643 00:20:33,679 --> 00:20:35,200 that's beneath me, 644 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,360 and if the leader is that person, that 645 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:40,159 has a huge cascading effect. 646 00:20:40,159 --> 00:20:41,919 Tom Bilyeu: Dude that, like you want to talk about 647 00:20:41,919 --> 00:20:43,760 something that leaders need to be able 648 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:45,200 to do it's 649 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,880 nothing is beneath you. Another stat in 650 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:47,919 basketball that you've talked about 651 00:20:47,919 --> 00:20:49,440 which is teams that have the most 652 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,679 all-stars tend to perform the worst 653 00:20:51,679 --> 00:20:53,130 which I think is really pretty interesting. 654 00:20:53,130 --> 00:20:54,400 Adam Grant: If you have a whole team of 655 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:55,600 all-stars, 656 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,520 they're less likely to want to do that, 657 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,039 right? Everybody wants to take the 658 00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:01,280 game-winning shot and so yeah, there are 659 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,080 studies both in basketball as well as in 660 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:05,840 in professional soccer 661 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,400 showing that if you have a team of more 662 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,000 than about 60 percent 663 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,559 superstars, your odds of winning a 664 00:21:12,559 --> 00:21:14,000 championship or having a highly 665 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,480 successful season go down because you're 666 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,480 missing the role players. And so whenever 667 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,960 I hear a CEO say well, I only hire A 668 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,880 players, I think well you know what, 669 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,360 there's a lot of important work that A 670 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:27,200 players don't want to do. And so I think 671 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:28,960 that's the wrong mentality, I think the 672 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,120 evidence would tell us that an A team is 673 00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:34,012 actually composed of A and B and C players. 674 00:21:34,012 --> 00:21:35,360 Tom Bilyeu: I am so desperate to get Phil 675 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:36,720 Jackson on the show. I don't know if you 676 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,919 read his book Eleven Rings, but oh man when 677 00:21:39,919 --> 00:21:41,440 he talks about how 678 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,200 we weren't winning championships when 679 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,039 Jordan was just the best player in the 680 00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:47,120 NBA, we started winning championships Adam Grant: Yeah. 681 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:49,120 Tom Bilyeu: when he became a leader and when he 682 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:51,360 realized you can't just punch people in 683 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:53,600 the face and hope that that is going to 684 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,360 take you like that, it will inspire them 685 00:21:55,360 --> 00:21:57,520 to elevate their game, he was like you 686 00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,039 have got to find a way to connect with 687 00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:00,960 these guys to bring them together. And he 688 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,559 said when I was able to focus him on 689 00:22:02,559 --> 00:22:04,320 leadership and really being a leader, 690 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,000 then we start taking off and he was like 691 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,480 look, he was still Michael, he was still 692 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,640 super hardcore, but 693 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,640 in recognizing that he wasn't going to 694 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,600 be able to win by himself, and you 695 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:16,720 know, I think that speaks to your 696 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,200 earliest point about the best leaders 697 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,600 being servant leaders and being able to 698 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,360 recognize how they have to give and 699 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:24,960 not just take is pretty extraordinary. 700 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,559 Adam Grant: Yeah. One of the questions I've 701 00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:27,919 gotten really interested in lately is 702 00:22:27,919 --> 00:22:29,760 the question of leader emergence. So 703 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,679 you've got a team and you have 704 00:22:31,679 --> 00:22:33,760 different levels of ability and then 705 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,200 you know, somebody steps up and becomes 706 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,760 the the informal leader. What drives that? 707 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,039 And you know, sometimes it's just the 708 00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:40,480 most competent person, 709 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,400 but often it's what psychologists 710 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,640 would call prototypicality which is to 711 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,559 say what does the group stand for and 712 00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:48,799 then who's the person who's most likely 713 00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:51,280 to exemplify the essence or the 714 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,039 identity of the group. And 715 00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:54,640 I think that's something that 716 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,240 very few people stop to think through 717 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:57,760 when you know, when they either start a 718 00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,919 new job or when they build a team, is to 719 00:22:59,919 --> 00:23:01,919 say okay, if I were to make a list of the 720 00:23:01,919 --> 00:23:03,919 values that are distinctive, central, and 721 00:23:03,919 --> 00:23:06,960 enduring to this team or to this company, 722 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,640 what are they? And then how do I make 723 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,523 sure that I represent the most core values? 724 00:23:11,523 --> 00:23:12,960 Tom Bilyeu: All right, now we have to talk and 725 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,640 I fear that I'm misremembering the words 726 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,480 you use but cognitive entrenchment? 727 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:17,760 That's close Adam Grant: Haha, yeah. 728 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,981 Tom Bilyeu: Um so that- Adam Grant: No that, that's the phrase. 729 00:23:20,981 --> 00:23:21,679 Tom Bilyeu: When I think about 730 00:23:21,679 --> 00:23:23,280 people getting stuck because humans hate 731 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:24,880 change as you were saying what Larry 732 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,640 Page said I was like, oh good luck man, 733 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,640 like people really hate change, but 734 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,799 it's such a powerful idea. So 735 00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:33,039 how do you deal with cognitive 736 00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:34,720 entrenchment? 737 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,159 Adam Grant: So when I think about cognitive 738 00:23:36,159 --> 00:23:37,760 entrenchment, there was a brilliant paper 739 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,520 that Eric Dane wrote about this and he 740 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,200 said look, you know we generally 741 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,120 assume that the more expertise you gain, 742 00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:45,039 the more creative you're going to be, and 743 00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:46,400 yet if you study the relationship 744 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,320 between expertise and creativity, it's 745 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,400 not linear, it's curvilinear. There's 746 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,159 such a thing as being too knowledgeable, 747 00:23:52,159 --> 00:23:54,480 like wait, how could that be? Wait I just, I 748 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,159 should, I should stop learning? 749 00:23:56,159 --> 00:23:58,240 No. What he's saying is that oftentimes 750 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,320 when you get really deep in a domain, 751 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:01,679 you start to take for granted 752 00:24:01,679 --> 00:24:03,600 assumptions that need to be questioned 753 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:04,880 and you don't even know you're taking 754 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,799 them for granted. You're like a fish that 755 00:24:06,799 --> 00:24:09,039 doesn't realize it's in water. And there 756 00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:10,480 are some really funny demonstrations of 757 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,200 this like expert bridge players. If you 758 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:14,720 change the rules up on them, they 759 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,559 actually perform worse than a lot of 760 00:24:16,559 --> 00:24:18,960 novices do or if you take really skilled 761 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,360 and experienced accountants. If you 762 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:23,200 look at how they adjust to a tax law, 763 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,440 they're slower to adapt than people who Tom Bilyeu: Woah. 764 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,279 Adam Grant: are just learning the accounting trade 765 00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:29,360 And you know, those are examples of 766 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:30,960 cognitive entrenchment, right? People get, 767 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,320 they get sort of accustomed to a 768 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,159 particular way of thinking and solving 769 00:24:34,159 --> 00:24:35,679 problems and then they don't want to 770 00:24:35,679 --> 00:24:36,880 undo that 771 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,279 and I worry a lot about that. 772 00:24:39,279 --> 00:24:40,960 I think that you know, organizations, 773 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,000 you're starting to talk about 774 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,919 organizations get entrenched too, right? 775 00:24:43,919 --> 00:24:45,520 This is the way we've always done it. 776 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,919 Well that will never work around here. 777 00:24:47,919 --> 00:24:49,760 And those to me are some of 778 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:51,679 the great warning signs that a culture 779 00:24:51,679 --> 00:24:54,159 is in danger of groupthink. I think 780 00:24:54,159 --> 00:24:56,720 the first thing to do is to run 781 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,559 the exercise of asking what's missing 782 00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:00,960 from our culture? If you know, if 783 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,679 there's a pattern, a behavior, a routine, 784 00:25:03,679 --> 00:25:05,760 a way of thinking that we wish we had 785 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,840 but we didn't, what is it? 786 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,200 And then how do we go out and find 787 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,360 people who excel at that? How do we 788 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:13,520 collectively and you know, adjust our 789 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:14,880 behaviors a little bit to move in that 790 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:15,840 direction. 791 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,760 I think IDEO did this beautifully so 792 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,960 you know IDEO of course, Tom. 793 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,320 I knew them originally as the 794 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:23,760 company that invented the mouse for 795 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,080 Apple. And they've done all kinds of 796 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,159 creative work since then as a great 797 00:25:28,159 --> 00:25:30,559 design consultancy. And after a while 798 00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:31,760 they realized you know we have a lot of 799 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,440 engineers and designers, 800 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:34,799 but we're getting called into these 801 00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:36,799 weird worlds and we're not really sure 802 00:25:36,799 --> 00:25:38,480 how to solve the problems that we face 803 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,320 in those worlds like they were tasked to 804 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,080 redesign a shopping cart in a grocery 805 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:42,960 store, 806 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,360 and then to reimagine Sesame Street as a 807 00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:47,919 TV show and they're like this is not mouse building 808 00:25:47,919 --> 00:25:49,440 anymore. 809 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,760 We need to figure out how to 810 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,000 learn about a new world really quickly, 811 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,400 and so they actually created a new job 812 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,320 that was called anthropologists and they 813 00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:59,760 said look, this is what anthropologists 814 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,840 do for a living, they go out into foreign 815 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,440 cultures and they make sense of them and 816 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,520 they bring that understanding back. 817 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,200 And so they literally went and hired 818 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:08,559 anthropologists because they discovered 819 00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:09,919 there was a skill set they were missing 820 00:26:09,919 --> 00:26:11,679 in their culture which was very design 821 00:26:11,679 --> 00:26:13,520 and engineering focused and I think that 822 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,600 exercise could be run in every company 823 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,440 and it's a great way of identifying 824 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:18,880 those gaps and then not getting 825 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,799 entrenched. What's your take, how 826 00:26:20,799 --> 00:26:23,120 do you think about solving that problem? 827 00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,880 Tom Bilyeu: So one, I think everybody has to agree on 828 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,279 what their goal is. So part of what I try 829 00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:31,840 to do is 830 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,600 make sure that core values that are 831 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,360 innate to the person that we hire are 832 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,520 already there, so if somebody 833 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,679 doesn't, like I think that you have to 834 00:26:39,679 --> 00:26:41,679 filter to a large extent and so the 835 00:26:41,679 --> 00:26:42,880 question is what do you filter for and I 836 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,640 think most people filter for skill set. 837 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,640 It's very easy to put on a resume. 838 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,039 It's much easier to test in an interview. 839 00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:51,919 But the thing that we filter for is do 840 00:26:51,919 --> 00:26:53,840 you have a growth mindset? And I feel 841 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,760 like that is one of the most fundamental 842 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,440 things. I get asked a lot about like 843 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:58,799 hey I want to be in a relationship like 844 00:26:58,799 --> 00:27:00,400 you and your wife like how do i do it? 845 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:01,840 And I'm like 80 percent of the battle is 846 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,159 selection and if Lisa didn't have a 847 00:27:04,159 --> 00:27:05,919 growth mindset or I didn't have a growth 848 00:27:05,919 --> 00:27:07,440 mindset and we weren't willing to get 849 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,200 better and improve, 850 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,640 then it would be nightmarish and you end 851 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:11,360 up, 852 00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:12,960 one of you grows typically and the other 853 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,240 doesn't and you know, it becomes this 854 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,000 real drama. So looking for people that 855 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,240 have a growth mindset, so at the core all 856 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,960 I have to do is appeal to that, right? So 857 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,320 as you were talking about what people 858 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,640 have to do to improve a culture, 859 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,080 my belief is 860 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,679 your current skill set or your current 861 00:27:27,679 --> 00:27:28,960 culture however you want to think of it, 862 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,240 has already taken you as far as it's 863 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,400 going to take you. So if you're happy 864 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:33,679 where you're at and like you said 865 00:27:33,679 --> 00:27:34,799 earlier, and you're comfortable being in 866 00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:37,120 that plateau forever, then hey, yay, you 867 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:39,840 already won, but my thing is I'm not and 868 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,279 certainly in a business, if you're not 869 00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:42,799 growing the odds of you getting 870 00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:45,200 supplanted by somebody who comes out of 871 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,679 left field with some new innovation that, 872 00:27:47,679 --> 00:27:50,320 you're just gonna get beaten to death. Adam Grant: Yeah. 873 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,039 Tom Bilyeu: So I appeal to those sort of just they 874 00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:55,200 are the physics of being human, they are 875 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,640 the physics of running a company, you 876 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,679 have to be improving. As a person the 877 00:27:59,679 --> 00:28:01,039 meaning of life is to see how many 878 00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:02,799 skills or how much potential you can 879 00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:04,720 turn into actual usable skills, so it's 880 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,159 like I would be asking all right, as we 881 00:28:06,159 --> 00:28:08,080 try to evolve this culture and somebody 882 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,200 offers an 883 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,120 idea, I would say how does it make us 884 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:13,840 better in any sort of measurable way? 885 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,080 Is it gonna help us innovate so that we 886 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,399 don't get supplanted by a new player? Is 887 00:28:18,399 --> 00:28:20,480 it going to 888 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,640 allow us to do more with less? Like what 889 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,799 is the outcome that you're trying 890 00:28:24,799 --> 00:28:26,240 to get because I find that in life 891 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,880 people steer by a vague sense and you 892 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,200 have to migrate them away from a vague 893 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:32,480 sense into something that is 894 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,039 articulatable into a very specific goal 895 00:28:35,039 --> 00:28:37,440 with a timeline, how much, exactly what. 896 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:38,960 Those three elements being critical to a 897 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,279 goal and then having an informed 898 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:42,640 hypothesis about how to get there and 899 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,520 the informed is the key part and so 900 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:46,799 we've broken down, so what I call the 901 00:28:46,799 --> 00:28:49,200 physics of progress, and we've turned 902 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:50,640 everything into 903 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,720 sort of a stateable formula which is the 904 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,840 most effective way to do insert goal is 905 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,480 to insert what i call a lever action, a 906 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:00,559 binary thing that you either do or don't 907 00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:03,200 do. It isn't incumbent upon the 908 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,039 outside world to give you anything, it's 909 00:29:05,039 --> 00:29:06,640 like either we do this or we don't, and 910 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,960 so that's our informed hypothesis. I know 911 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,880 enough about it you know, to say I think 912 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,120 this will work but I know enough about 913 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,039 the realities of myself and the world to 914 00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:16,960 know I can't guess at whether this will 915 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,200 actually work I have to test it. 916 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,080 Adam Grant: I love formulating that as the hypothesis 917 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,080 because I've seen so many companies 918 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,720 get in the trap of declaring the best 919 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,640 practices and then never questioning 920 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,880 them until it's too late. And I think 921 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,480 what you've just outlined is a really 922 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,399 effective way to keep learning. 923 00:29:34,399 --> 00:29:36,799 Tom Bilyeu: Yeah. And at an institutional level 924 00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:37,919 it becomes 925 00:29:37,919 --> 00:29:41,120 harder because you have so many of the, 926 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,200 a company is not a nameless, faceless 927 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,840 entity, it is entirely the sum total 928 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,840 of the actual human beings that make up 929 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,640 that company. So if at the individual 930 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,720 level you have a 931 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,399 sickness which could be cognitive 932 00:29:54,399 --> 00:29:56,880 entrenchment, then the organization is 933 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,399 going to have that same sickness of 934 00:29:58,399 --> 00:30:01,200 cognitive entrenchment. So it's 935 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,679 trying to find a way to boil this down 936 00:30:03,679 --> 00:30:05,840 where everybody can take ownership of it 937 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,799 and make those changes, be focused on the 938 00:30:08,799 --> 00:30:10,880 same desired outcome which is constant 939 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,200 self-improvement in our company, 940 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,200 otherwise you, 941 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,360 there's so much inertia to staying the 942 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:18,799 same, you just won't be able to get out 943 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:21,120 of it because everybody has that vague 944 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,399 sense. And I find that's the most 945 00:30:24,399 --> 00:30:27,360 prototypical human sickness, is a vague 946 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,440 sense. I have like, what do you want to do, 947 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:30,799 this is perfect to speak to an Olympic 948 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:32,880 diver, what do you want to do? I want to 949 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,200 win a gold medal and that is where I 950 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:36,640 promise you most people stop. I want to 951 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,960 win a gold medal. Awesome, in what? The 952 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,559 Olympics? Yes, the Olympics. Amazing! Summer 953 00:30:42,559 --> 00:30:45,360 or Winter? Summer. Fantastic. 954 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,760 Swimming, diving, tennis like where are we 955 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,360 at here? And then you get all the way 956 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,200 down to I want to be you know, the 10 957 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,520 meter springboard champion or 958 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:54,960 whatever, I'm not even sure if that's a 959 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,039 thing, but like you get the idea. 960 00:30:57,039 --> 00:30:59,103 You know exactly- Adam Grant: I mean a 10 meter board would scare 961 00:30:59,103 --> 00:31:02,000 the hell out of everyone. [Laughter] 962 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,640 Tom Bilyeu: So you know specifically what you 963 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:05,840 want to do and therefore you know 964 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,120 specifically what you have to get good 965 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:08,880 at. 966 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,159 Adam Grant: Do you ever feel like people get 967 00:31:10,159 --> 00:31:13,440 exhausted by constant self-improvement? 968 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,720 Tom Bilyeu: I'll speak for myself, I've never, i 969 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,000 haven't been thoughtful enough to ask 970 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,000 that question. So 971 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,720 where I come down on this is like you 972 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,320 talking about okay, somebody telling me 973 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,799 that I move like a muppet, it sucks in 974 00:31:26,799 --> 00:31:28,880 the short term, but obviously your 975 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,120 behavior tells me that you're focused on 976 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,640 the long term like what can be gained 977 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,320 from your improvement. The fact that you 978 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,159 become one of the most recognized 979 00:31:36,159 --> 00:31:37,840 thought leaders in the space, the fact 980 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:38,960 that you're seven years running the 981 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,360 number one ranked professor at 982 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,600 Wharton, I mean it's, the results 983 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,600 speak for themselves. And so the way I 984 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,080 think about it in my own life is I have 985 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:49,919 so mentally conditioned myself to get a 986 00:31:49,919 --> 00:31:52,320 dopamine rush from somebody pointing out 987 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,120 a flaw because I'm thinking you have no 988 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,640 idea. My- 989 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,240 Adam I have the chills because I know 990 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,720 how true what I'm about to say is. I'm 991 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:01,760 willing to 992 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,919 actually take the pain of that and then 993 00:32:03,919 --> 00:32:06,880 go if I can improve this I'll now be a 994 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,799 step farther ahead and on a long enough 995 00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:10,399 timeline I can win at anything because 996 00:32:10,399 --> 00:32:11,919 I'm willing to do that constant 997 00:32:11,919 --> 00:32:13,519 iteration. So 998 00:32:13,519 --> 00:32:14,880 there are definitely things that I do in 999 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:16,880 my life where for sort of brief periods 1000 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:18,080 of time I'm not thinking about getting 1001 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,840 better, but honestly man they're 1002 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,720 really few and far between and I have, 1003 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,240 I have this thing in my life where it is, 1004 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:25,760 for 15 years because I was trying to 1005 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,120 build a business so I could build a film 1006 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:28,880 studio, long story, 1007 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,720 I didn't watch movies because it 1008 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,240 wasn't the skill that I needed at that 1009 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:33,679 moment. And then I found that that 1010 00:32:33,679 --> 00:32:35,279 carried over even when I was building 1011 00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:37,360 the studio, I wasn't watching movies 1012 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:38,880 anymore because I'd gotten into such a 1013 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:39,760 habit 1014 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,279 and I found that they didn't make me 1015 00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:43,600 feel like I was getting better and so I 1016 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,120 couldn't do anything that didn't make me 1017 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:46,159 feel like I was getting better because 1018 00:32:46,159 --> 00:32:47,679 the conditioning I'd put under myself to 1019 00:32:47,679 --> 00:32:50,000 have this huge dopamine reaction, so I 1020 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,840 had to flip a switch and say I'm going 1021 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,919 to now start deconstructing this stuff 1022 00:32:53,919 --> 00:32:55,360 and figuring out why it's good, why it 1023 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,360 works, and now dude, I love watching 1024 00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,440 movies more than I've ever loved it in 1025 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,600 my life because before it was passive 1026 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,399 and now it's very proactive, it 1027 00:33:04,399 --> 00:33:06,640 feels far more creative and it feels 1028 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,320 like I'm getting stronger which is 1029 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:09,679 my obsession. 1030 00:33:09,679 --> 00:33:12,240 Adam Grant: Yeah. So two things on that. One is I 1031 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:13,919 think you just laid out beautifully 1032 00:33:13,919 --> 00:33:15,440 Robert Eisenberger's theory of learned 1033 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,840 industriousness which is the idea that 1034 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,919 if you look at kids who grow up to be 1035 00:33:19,919 --> 00:33:22,320 extremely gritty and hardworking, 1036 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:23,760 one of the things that happens to 1037 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,760 them very early on is they get praised 1038 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,760 for effort over and over again or 1039 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,760 rewarded for effort over and over again 1040 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,519 and then the feeling of hard work itself 1041 00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:33,600 takes on secondary reward properties, and 1042 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,360 so it's like oh this hurts, but it also 1043 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,279 feels good and I want to keep doing it 1044 00:33:37,279 --> 00:33:38,559 because I've gotten rewarded for it in 1045 00:33:38,559 --> 00:33:40,320 the past. And it sounds like you've 1046 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,960 taken constructive criticism 1047 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,200 as one of those reward keys that 1048 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,120 really motivates you to keep getting 1049 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:48,000 better. 1050 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,279 The other thing that I thought was 1051 00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:50,399 really interesting about what you just 1052 00:33:50,399 --> 00:33:52,240 said is I thought you were 1053 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:53,440 actually going to go in a cognitive 1054 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,440 entrenchment direction on this when 1055 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,120 you said you didn't watch movies for a 1056 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,120 long period. It reminded me of a Simpsons 1057 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:00,720 writer that I interviewed once, 1058 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,880 George Meyer, who when he was writing for 1059 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,880 the Simpsons, he refused to watch 1060 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,760 Seinfeld because he was afraid that he'd 1061 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,399 fall into this clept amnesia trap and 1062 00:34:10,399 --> 00:34:12,639 accidentally misremember one of their 1063 00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:15,280 jokes as his and he just, he didn't want 1064 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,800 to take that risk. 1065 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,800 And I always feel like this is a 1066 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,399 tightrope walk because 1067 00:34:20,399 --> 00:34:21,679 when you're trying to innovate in 1068 00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:23,520 an industry you can't be completely 1069 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,760 clueless about what everybody else is 1070 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,440 doing otherwise you might miss something 1071 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:28,879 really important, 1072 00:34:28,879 --> 00:34:31,440 and yes Blockbuster, Sears, Blackberry, I'm 1073 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,520 talking to you, Kodak. 1074 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:34,480 But 1075 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,239 on the other hand, if you're too 1076 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:37,839 obsessed with what your competitors are 1077 00:34:37,839 --> 00:34:40,320 up to, then you get entrenched and 1078 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,800 it's harder to see with fresh eyes. Do 1079 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:44,800 you have thoughts on how to stay on that 1080 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,879 tightrope and not fall off either side? 1081 00:34:46,879 --> 00:34:48,800 Tom Bilyeu: Yeah so, I would say this is where 1082 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,320 self-awareness is going to be really, 1083 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,440 really important. I think there are 1084 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,280 people that, 1085 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,520 they maybe exist better in a vacuum 1086 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,880 or they have such strong intuition about 1087 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,359 something, and I believe exclusively in 1088 00:35:01,359 --> 00:35:02,640 informed tuition, I don't think you're 1089 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,400 born with intuition. I think that it's 1090 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,240 developed just through your activities 1091 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:08,880 and you give a great example on this 1092 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,760 with Steve Jobs and how he had informed 1093 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,599 intuition around technology but not 1094 00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:14,960 around transportation, and so what he 1095 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,960 does in Apple is life altering and 1096 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,079 his investment in Segway was a waste. So 1097 00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:22,240 that I think is very, very real, but I 1098 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:23,920 think that like anything it's a spectrum 1099 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,359 and so there are some people maybe that 1100 00:35:25,359 --> 00:35:27,040 intuition is developed more intensely or 1101 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:28,800 it's developed more quickly, 1102 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,119 invisibly, whatever the case may be, and 1103 00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:32,640 then there are people who I'll call 1104 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,359 synthesizers, so and that's me. And if you 1105 00:35:35,359 --> 00:35:37,040 put me on a desert island, what I would 1106 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,440 come up with would probably not be very 1107 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,599 interesting, but if you put me in an 1108 00:35:41,599 --> 00:35:43,599 information rich environment I will make 1109 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:44,960 connections that are unlike the 1110 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,119 connections anybody else will make. And I 1111 00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:49,680 have cultivated a fearlessness over 1112 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,560 making unique connections, and so I had 1113 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,040 to embrace that I am a synthesizer and 1114 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,760 that for me, to take in all this data, to 1115 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,040 read broadly like people that I think 1116 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,640 that confirm what I believe and people 1117 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,520 that violently oppose what I believe and 1118 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,599 all of that ends up coming together in a 1119 00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:10,240 unique way in my own mind. And so for a 1120 00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:11,680 long time I was paralyzed because I felt 1121 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:13,280 like I'm never going to think a unique 1122 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,440 thought and that was really discouraging 1123 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,119 to me and if you've seen A Beautiful 1124 00:36:17,119 --> 00:36:19,200 Mind, that was at least, as portrayed in 1125 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,680 the movie, is what he struggled with was 1126 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:22,800 you know i'm never going to have an 1127 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,280 original thought and it plagues him and 1128 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,280 ends up being a driver for him and he 1129 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:28,800 ends up obviously having a very original 1130 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,800 thought and ends up really changing our 1131 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,640 understanding of economics 1132 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,200 but for me what i found was i'm a 1133 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,920 process thinker so i need to i'm not i 1134 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,280 don't sit in a vacuum and have these 1135 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,000 amazing breakthroughs i suffer and then 1136 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,240 have a breakthrough based on things that 1137 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:46,800 i've read that finally collide and i put 1138 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,800 them in a new context with a collision 1139 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:50,240 that maybe other people would make 1140 00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:51,520 filtered through a value system that 1141 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,440 other people don't have and now i know 1142 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,079 how to move through in the world because 1143 00:36:56,079 --> 00:36:58,720 i'm trying to satisfy my own emotional 1144 00:36:58,720 --> 00:36:59,599 needs 1145 00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:01,920 and i'm a total slave to the physics of 1146 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,920 the world so what actually moves me 1147 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,400 towards my goals so you you put all that 1148 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,040 together and i'm sort of unabashed 1149 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,440 about like i need to take in all this 1150 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,040 data i'm not worried about klepto 1151 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,359 amnesia i'm happy to celebrate and 1152 00:37:15,359 --> 00:37:17,359 champion other people i 1153 00:37:17,359 --> 00:37:19,520 i don't have those fears because i 1154 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:20,800 didn't need it to be my idea in the 1155 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,720 first place so even when i think about 1156 00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:24,640 writing like i when when he's a writer 1157 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,000 and he wants to say something original 1158 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,520 he wants to be his own jokes i 1159 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,839 understand all of that for sure 1160 00:37:29,839 --> 00:37:32,880 my thing as a writer is i'm i'm gonna 1161 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,560 tell like if i were to try to do 1162 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,040 seinfeld like literally i'm going to 1163 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,400 make seinfeld i'm going to do this just 1164 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:39,680 seinfeld i'm going to try to copy 1165 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,760 seinfeld as hard as i can as long as i 1166 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,320 trust my own intuition and i divert when 1167 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,560 i feel something is even funnier i'm 1168 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:48,000 trying to make it better it will just 1169 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,760 end up being so different that 1170 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,760 that gives me sort of that armor around 1171 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,000 not really worried about this 1172 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,280 and 1173 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,040 i would never intentionally go down that 1174 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:00,720 path of trying to mimic it so then once 1175 00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:01,440 you 1176 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,200 put in i'm really trying to take this 1177 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,240 somewhere new and i'm trusting my own 1178 00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:08,560 unique quirks and i'm fearless about 1179 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,800 chasing them you get something that's 1180 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:11,920 original 1181 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:13,520 do you always trust your intuition 1182 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:14,880 though because when you were describing 1183 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,119 your hypothesis testing approach before 1184 00:38:17,119 --> 00:38:18,720 it sounds like to me you're not 1185 00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:21,280 following your gut you're testing it 1186 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,800 so i it's funny i wouldn't if i just 1187 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,359 gave the impression that i trust my 1188 00:38:27,359 --> 00:38:29,359 instincts the answer is no so what i'm 1189 00:38:29,359 --> 00:38:30,880 saying is when i'm writing something and 1190 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,320 i have something that bends me in a 1191 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,480 weird direction i'm going to follow that 1192 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:35,839 but the only thing i care about is how 1193 00:38:35,839 --> 00:38:38,079 do people actually respond so what i 1194 00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:39,839 used to tell my students is because i 1195 00:38:39,839 --> 00:38:41,599 used to teach filmmaking i said you have 1196 00:38:41,599 --> 00:38:43,839 you have a choice before you you you can 1197 00:38:43,839 --> 00:38:45,359 be here to masturbate or you can be here 1198 00:38:45,359 --> 00:38:46,720 to make love and if you want to 1199 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:48,160 masturbate go make some weird art house 1200 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,440 film that nobody understands that's 1201 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:50,720 absolutely fine like you're trying to 1202 00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:53,200 please yourself respect but if you're 1203 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:54,560 here to make love you have to think 1204 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,560 about your partner and your partner is 1205 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:57,920 the audience and you have to understand 1206 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,720 how the things you do impact them and so 1207 00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:03,280 your obsession has to be not what you 1208 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:04,960 intend to communicate but what is 1209 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,280 actually understood and so if you don't 1210 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:08,400 understand that now you're in real 1211 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,720 trouble so i'm not trying to exist in a 1212 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:11,920 vacuum 1213 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,760 i'm i'm trying to say my hypothesis is 1214 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,760 that my unique way of interpreting this 1215 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,280 will actually have a bigger response 1216 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:20,880 than the other thing and i'm fearless 1217 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,720 enough to try it now if i get feedback 1218 00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:24,720 that it didn't work then i'm going to 1219 00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:27,680 adjust a hundred percent i'm just never 1220 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,599 afraid if i really feel that something 1221 00:39:29,599 --> 00:39:31,520 is the right way i'm gonna do it and if 1222 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,040 i'm unsure i'll admit that i'm unsure 1223 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:34,720 and i'll try to get feedback from people 1224 00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:36,400 to try to orient myself 1225 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,640 that's such a helpful edit because as a 1226 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,560 social scientist when when people say 1227 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,480 you know trust your intuition or follow 1228 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,240 your gut 1229 00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:46,560 i generally don't trust things that i 1230 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,040 don't know where they came from and i 1231 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,960 want to know why why you're so confident 1232 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:52,720 in your intuition well let's actually 1233 00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:54,560 talk about what intuition is it's just 1234 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,400 subconscious pattern recognition 1235 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,160 right you've you've detected some kind 1236 00:39:58,160 --> 00:39:59,839 of connection that you're not fully able 1237 00:39:59,839 --> 00:40:01,839 to articulate and don't you want to find 1238 00:40:01,839 --> 00:40:03,440 out what that is right make the the 1239 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,760 pattern conscious so then you can test 1240 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,200 whether the pattern that you're seeing 1241 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,680 now is actually relevant to the choice 1242 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,000 that you're about to make um you know 1243 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,079 steve jobs with the segway example is 1244 00:40:14,079 --> 00:40:16,000 such a fun one for me because 1245 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,560 he spent all those years in you know in 1246 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,720 the software worlds building up his 1247 00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:23,119 intuition so that he could very quickly 1248 00:40:23,119 --> 00:40:25,440 know whether design made sense or not he 1249 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,760 didn't have the subconscious pattern 1250 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:29,440 recognition calibrated for 1251 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,599 transportation and so you know he 1252 00:40:31,599 --> 00:40:33,359 quickly got bowled over just by how 1253 00:40:33,359 --> 00:40:35,280 brilliant the technology was 1254 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:36,640 and seemed to miss some of the user 1255 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,240 applications of it and how difficult it 1256 00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:41,119 would be to write a segue down sidewalks 1257 00:40:41,119 --> 00:40:42,640 um and i think a lot of people do this 1258 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,000 right they build up their intuition in 1259 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,839 one domain and then they just find they 1260 00:40:45,839 --> 00:40:47,839 follow it blindly in another domain not 1261 00:40:47,839 --> 00:40:49,520 realizing that the patterns that held in 1262 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,000 one world don't apply to the next one 1263 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:53,760 yeah no question 1264 00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,400 dude i have thoroughly thoroughly 1265 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,319 thoroughly enjoyed this conversation i 1266 00:40:58,319 --> 00:40:59,760 really enjoyed your works they are 1267 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,240 incredible um i highly encourage people 1268 00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:04,720 to get after it um and man in this time 1269 00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:06,480 where i think that 1270 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,319 new leaders coming to the surface is 1271 00:41:08,319 --> 00:41:09,680 going to be so critical for us 1272 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,599 navigating our way to 1273 00:41:11,599 --> 00:41:14,079 a positive beautiful end i'm eternally 1274 00:41:14,079 --> 00:41:15,599 grateful for everything that you write 1275 00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:16,880 on the subject and helping people 1276 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,839 develop self-awareness and the skills um 1277 00:41:19,839 --> 00:41:22,480 that they need to lead well uh amongst 1278 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,319 all the other amazing topics that you've 1279 00:41:24,319 --> 00:41:26,400 covered so dude thank you for the way 1280 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:27,599 that you walk through the world where 1281 00:41:27,599 --> 00:41:29,839 can people find out more about you 1282 00:41:29,839 --> 00:41:32,400 um well first of all tom thank you i've 1283 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,800 heard many many rave reviews of your 1284 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,520 passion for self-improvement and i i 1285 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,520 think i underestimated just how curious 1286 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,440 you were even even having heard that 1287 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,839 from loss of mutual friends so it's it's 1288 00:41:43,839 --> 00:41:45,520 really cool to see it in action and soak 1289 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,040 it up a little bit 1290 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,319 um on your question i would say i guess 1291 00:41:50,319 --> 00:41:52,800 adamgrant.net is the place to start 1292 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,440 i host a ted podcast called work life 1293 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:56,800 where i try to figure out how we can 1294 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,800 make work suck a little bit less and i 1295 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,359 do a monthly newsletter called granted 1296 00:42:01,359 --> 00:42:02,880 where i cover some of my favorite new 1297 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,200 insights about work in psychology and 1298 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:06,800 would love to see people in either those 1299 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,960 places or hear them or have them hear me 1300 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:10,560 if they're interested 1301 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,720 i love it man all right everybody if you 1302 00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:14,319 haven't already dive into this world you 1303 00:42:14,319 --> 00:42:16,800 will be richly rewarded and speaking of 1304 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,079 rich rewards if you haven't already 1305 00:42:18,079 --> 00:42:19,839 subscribed be sure to do so and until 1306 00:42:19,839 --> 00:42:21,920 next time my friends be legendary take 1307 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:22,960 care 1308 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:24,640 the great irony is the way you build 1309 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:26,079 great companies 1310 00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:28,160 is with an infinite mindset the way you 1311 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,200 build great companies is by prioritizing 1312 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,280 people before profit the way you build 1313 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,839 great companies is will before resources 1314 00:42:35,839 --> 00:42:37,359 both things important but there has to 1315 00:42:37,359 --> 00:42:41,240 be this general leaning