0:00:00.000,0:00:03.389 [Music] 0:00:04.560,0:00:06.960 Tom Bilyeu: Hey everybody, welcome to Impact Theory. 0:00:06.960,0:00:08.720 Today's guest is organizational 0:00:08.720,0:00:11.679 psychologist Adam Grant. He's a four-time 0:00:11.679,0:00:13.519 New York Times best-selling author who's 0:00:13.519,0:00:15.839 been called one of the top 10 most 0:00:15.839,0:00:17.840 influential management thinkers of our 0:00:17.840,0:00:20.480 time. He's been ranked Wharton's number 0:00:20.480,0:00:23.039 one professor for seven years running 0:00:23.039,0:00:24.800 and is one of the most sought after 0:00:24.800,0:00:27.439 speakers on the planet. Additionally, this 0:00:27.439,0:00:29.599 former junior olympics diver was named 0:00:29.599,0:00:31.760 by Fortune Magazine to their prestigious 0:00:31.760,0:00:34.320 40 under 40 list. And everyone from Bill 0:00:34.320,0:00:36.800 Gates and Richard Branson to J.J. Abrams 0:00:36.800,0:00:38.559 and Malcolm Gladwell have praised his 0:00:38.559,0:00:40.719 work. And his Ted Talks together have a 0:00:40.719,0:00:43.040 collective view count north of 20 0:00:43.040,0:00:45.840 million views. Adam, welcome to the show 0:00:45.840,0:00:46.640 man. 0:00:46.640,0:00:48.399 Adam Grant: Thanks for that Tom. I can assure you 0:00:48.399,0:00:50.635 it's all downhill from here. [br]Tom Bilyeu: That's hilarious. 0:00:50.635,0:00:52.960 It's funny how hearing 0:00:52.960,0:00:54.800 one's accomplishments strung out like 0:00:54.800,0:00:57.680 that can sound very weird at times but 0:00:57.680,0:00:59.199 it is pretty impressive man, like what 0:00:59.199,0:01:01.680 you've been able to do is 0:01:01.680,0:01:03.440 pretty extraordinary. And what I love is 0:01:03.440,0:01:05.280 that it comes from 0:01:05.280,0:01:08.320 a pretty aggressive approach to getting 0:01:08.320,0:01:10.240 people to tell you what you're doing 0:01:10.240,0:01:12.960 wrong so that you can get better. 0:01:12.960,0:01:15.360 And right now we are living through some 0:01:15.360,0:01:17.200 extraordinarily 0:01:18.479,0:01:20.560 interesting times, the tables being 0:01:20.560,0:01:22.080 overturned, we're in the middle of a lot 0:01:22.080,0:01:23.520 of protesting. There's going to be just 0:01:23.520,0:01:25.680 tremendous change, hopefully, tremendous 0:01:25.680,0:01:28.320 change taking place. And to get us 0:01:28.320,0:01:30.799 through that kind of change well, we're 0:01:30.799,0:01:32.240 obviously going to need a lot of 0:01:32.240,0:01:34.079 tremendous leadership. And I was 0:01:34.079,0:01:35.680 wondering in your research, I know that 0:01:35.680,0:01:38.240 you've focused heavily on what are sort 0:01:38.240,0:01:39.520 of the universal principles of 0:01:39.520,0:01:40.799 leadership, 0:01:40.799,0:01:42.159 and I'd love to start there, like what do 0:01:42.159,0:01:44.799 you think makes for a great leader? 0:01:44.799,0:01:46.880 Adam Grant: Oh where do we begin? How many hours do 0:01:46.880,0:01:47.376 you have Tom? 0:01:47.376,0:01:48.880 Tom Bilyeu: As many as you'll give me 0:01:48.880,0:01:52.000 to be honest.[br]Adam Grant: All right, I'm here. I 0:01:52.000,0:01:54.240 have not a lot else on my agenda today 0:01:54.240,0:01:55.200 so 0:01:55.200,0:01:56.880 um, you know when I think about 0:01:56.880,0:01:58.240 leadership, the first thing I want to do 0:01:58.240,0:02:00.479 is I want to break it down into values 0:02:00.479,0:02:01.920 and skills. 0:02:01.920,0:02:04.159 And I think that for me the values are 0:02:04.159,0:02:06.960 table stakes, right? So you can't lead if 0:02:06.960,0:02:08.800 you're a taker, rather than a giver. If 0:02:08.800,0:02:10.639 it's all about you as opposed to saying 0:02:10.639,0:02:12.879 look, I care more about my people and the 0:02:12.879,0:02:14.640 mission we're trying to advance than I 0:02:14.640,0:02:16.800 do about glorifying myself. 0:02:16.800,0:02:18.239 So that would be the first value I'd put 0:02:18.239,0:02:20.000 on the table. The second- [br]Tom Bilyeu: So before we, before we move 0:02:20.000,0:02:21.599 off that one, just give people a quick[br]Adam Grant: Yea. 0:02:21.599,0:02:23.440 Tom Bilyeu: breakdown of givers versus takers, you 0:02:23.440,0:02:24.480 have a whole book on it. It's really 0:02:24.480,0:02:26.640 extraordinary. You talk about the 0:02:26.640,0:02:28.080 three types, I think it'd be useful for 0:02:28.080,0:02:29.440 people to understand that. 0:02:29.440,0:02:30.959 Adam Grant: Yeah, happy too. So when I think about 0:02:30.959,0:02:32.400 your style of giving and taking the 0:02:32.400,0:02:34.239 question is just, when you interact with 0:02:34.239,0:02:36.080 somebody new, what's your default 0:02:36.080,0:02:38.160 instinct? Is it to give and say what can 0:02:38.160,0:02:40.800 I do for you? To take and think about 0:02:40.800,0:02:43.120 what can you do for me? Or to match and 0:02:43.120,0:02:45.599 say okay can we trade some kind of favor? 0:02:45.599,0:02:47.360 And what I found over and over again is 0:02:47.360,0:02:49.360 that most people default to matching. 0:02:49.360,0:02:51.120 They don't want to be too selfish or too 0:02:51.120,0:02:53.840 generous, and yet in the long run the 0:02:53.840,0:02:55.920 most successful leaders especially, are 0:02:55.920,0:02:57.440 the servant leaders 0:02:57.440,0:02:58.879 who are interested in helping others 0:02:58.879,0:03:00.959 with no strings attached and who will 0:03:00.959,0:03:03.120 put other people above their own narrow 0:03:03.120,0:03:05.360 self-interest. And so I think 0:03:05.360,0:03:07.040 that's just, that's a must-have in 0:03:07.040,0:03:09.680 leadership and it's far more rare than I 0:03:09.680,0:03:11.040 would like it to be. 0:03:11.040,0:03:12.720 Tom Bilyeu: Fair 0:03:12.720,0:03:14.239 Adam Grant: I think beyond that, I think a second 0:03:14.239,0:03:15.599 attribute I look for in leaders 0:03:15.599,0:03:18.560 value-wise is humility, to recognize 0:03:18.560,0:03:20.720 your shortcomings, but also be motivated 0:03:20.720,0:03:23.599 to overcome those shortcomings. It's 0:03:23.599,0:03:25.200 not that helpful if you can say yeah, I 0:03:25.200,0:03:26.959 can make a list of the 19 0:03:26.959,0:03:29.519 weaknesses that I have, but I don't care 0:03:29.519,0:03:31.599 about fixing any of them, right? I think 0:03:31.599,0:03:33.360 being an effective leader is heavily 0:03:33.360,0:03:35.840 about striving for self-improvement. 0:03:35.840,0:03:37.760 And the third value I'd put on the table 0:03:37.760,0:03:39.760 is integrity. It's a consistency 0:03:39.760,0:03:41.760 between your words and your deeds 0:03:41.760,0:03:43.519 and a lot of people will say look you 0:03:43.519,0:03:45.440 know, you have to practice what you 0:03:45.440,0:03:47.360 preach. I actually think leaders should 0:03:47.360,0:03:49.760 be doing the reverse which is to say I 0:03:49.760,0:03:51.760 am only going to preach what I already 0:03:51.760,0:03:52.799 practice. 0:03:52.799,0:03:54.720 And if we could just get leaders who 0:03:54.720,0:03:57.680 value generosity, humility, and integrity, 0:03:57.680,0:04:00.159 I would be overjoyed. And then we get to 0:04:00.159,0:04:01.200 skills. 0:04:01.200,0:04:03.280 Tom Bilyeu: All right, so before we go on to skills, 0:04:03.280,0:04:04.720 let's talk about those in a little more 0:04:04.720,0:04:06.159 depth. So one of the things I found 0:04:06.159,0:04:08.000 interesting in the book 0:04:08.000,0:04:10.560 is when you're talking about takers, 0:04:10.560,0:04:12.720 givers, matchers, that you said the 0:04:12.720,0:04:14.480 interesting thing about givers is that 0:04:14.480,0:04:16.079 they represent both ends of the spectrum, 0:04:16.079,0:04:18.079 so you see some of the least successful 0:04:18.079,0:04:19.759 people are givers and then the most 0:04:19.759,0:04:21.918 successful people are givers. And so I'd 0:04:21.918,0:04:24.000 love to know how to use it functionally 0:04:24.000,0:04:26.000 and when it sort of metastasizes and 0:04:26.000,0:04:27.520 becomes a problem. 0:04:27.520,0:04:28.960 Adam Grant: Yeah. So if you look at the differences 0:04:28.960,0:04:30.880 between failed and successful givers, 0:04:30.880,0:04:33.759 they break down into the question of, 0:04:33.759,0:04:36.000 actually it's three questions. One, who do 0:04:36.000,0:04:38.479 you help? Two, when do you help? And three, 0:04:38.479,0:04:39.919 how do you help? 0:04:39.919,0:04:41.840 And what you see with failed givers is 0:04:41.840,0:04:44.560 they're basically self-sacrificing, so 0:04:44.560,0:04:46.479 they're helping all the people all the 0:04:46.479,0:04:48.800 time with all the requests which is a 0:04:48.800,0:04:50.639 recipe for burnout. It's also an easy way 0:04:50.639,0:04:52.400 to get burned by takers. 0:04:52.400,0:04:54.479 What you see with successful givers is 0:04:54.479,0:04:56.080 they're more thoughtful about their 0:04:56.080,0:04:58.320 helping choices and they say look, I will 0:04:58.320,0:05:00.160 do whatever I can to support people who 0:05:00.160,0:05:02.240 are either generous or fair, right? Givers 0:05:02.240,0:05:03.919 or matchers. But if somebody has a 0:05:03.919,0:05:05.440 history or reputation of selfish 0:05:05.440,0:05:06.479 behavior, 0:05:06.479,0:05:08.400 then they might be a taker and so I'm 0:05:08.400,0:05:09.759 gonna be a little bit more cautious with 0:05:09.759,0:05:11.520 them and set some boundaries. 0:05:11.520,0:05:13.039 One, because I don't want to reinforce 0:05:13.039,0:05:15.360 that behavior and reward it. And two, 0:05:15.360,0:05:16.800 because they're going to take advantage 0:05:16.800,0:05:18.320 of me and prevent me from helping the 0:05:18.320,0:05:19.440 people who are going to pay it back and 0:05:19.440,0:05:20.800 pay it forward. 0:05:20.800,0:05:22.160 And then you also see that successful 0:05:22.160,0:05:24.880 givers are more likely to say okay, I'll 0:05:24.880,0:05:26.880 block out time from my own agenda and own 0:05:26.880,0:05:28.639 priorities because I want to be 0:05:28.639,0:05:30.400 ambitious around my own goals, not just 0:05:30.400,0:05:32.800 around helping other people and yeah, if 0:05:32.800,0:05:34.720 it's an emergency I will show up and 0:05:34.720,0:05:36.639 help you, but otherwise I have some 0:05:36.639,0:05:38.000 priorities that I need to take care of 0:05:38.000,0:05:40.560 here. So I will be available to you when 0:05:40.560,0:05:41.840 you know, when it's not going to be a 0:05:41.840,0:05:43.360 huge cost to me. 0:05:43.360,0:05:45.039 And then, they're also careful about 0:05:45.039,0:05:47.520 helping in ways that energize them and 0:05:47.520,0:05:49.600 where they add distinctive value. So you 0:05:49.600,0:05:51.360 see a lot of failed givers becoming 0:05:51.360,0:05:53.680 jacks of all trades and you know, pretty 0:05:53.680,0:05:55.600 soon they get a reputation for being 0:05:55.600,0:05:57.759 capable and helpful and then no good 0:05:57.759,0:05:59.520 deed goes unpunished. 0:05:59.520,0:06:01.280 Whereas the successful givers are more 0:06:01.280,0:06:02.639 likely to say look, I've got a couple 0:06:02.639,0:06:05.280 ways of helping that I really like and 0:06:05.280,0:06:07.199 that I excel at, and I'm going to focus 0:06:07.199,0:06:08.960 on those so that I can add more value 0:06:08.960,0:06:11.120 and so when I do help, it's energizing to 0:06:11.120,0:06:13.120 me as opposed to exhausting. 0:06:13.120,0:06:15.039 Tom Bilyeu: One of the things I found in a company 0:06:15.039,0:06:17.199 context and I'm not even sure yet how 0:06:17.199,0:06:19.360 applicable this is to 0:06:19.360,0:06:21.280 the greater time that we're living 0:06:21.280,0:06:23.759 through right now, but when I think 0:06:23.759,0:06:25.520 about trying to provide leadership in a 0:06:25.520,0:06:27.199 company context, it's a pretty 0:06:27.199,0:06:28.720 interesting dynamic when you talk about 0:06:28.720,0:06:31.120 humility where you do have to have a 0:06:31.120,0:06:32.720 degree of certainty, you have to have a 0:06:32.720,0:06:34.800 degree of like being able to step out 0:06:34.800,0:06:37.680 front to galvanize everybody's 0:06:37.680,0:06:39.759 attention, hopefully not on yourself, but 0:06:39.759,0:06:41.520 you're galvanizing it on a vision, and 0:06:41.520,0:06:43.039 you have to get everybody pointed in the 0:06:43.039,0:06:45.120 same direction. I often talk about one of 0:06:45.120,0:06:46.800 the things I think that leaders really 0:06:46.800,0:06:49.120 have to do is you have to understand how 0:06:49.120,0:06:50.960 to generate momentum, so we're in a 0:06:50.960,0:06:52.000 moment right now where if we can 0:06:52.000,0:06:53.759 capitalize on the sort of emotional 0:06:53.759,0:06:55.280 momentum that we have, point it in a 0:06:55.280,0:06:56.960 direction that is 0:06:56.960,0:06:58.720 ultimately bringing everybody together 0:06:58.720,0:07:01.120 and is thoughtful in terms of the 0:07:01.120,0:07:03.840 long-term outcome that we want to have, 0:07:03.840,0:07:05.680 that could be such a powerful 0:07:05.680,0:07:06.960 moment. But 0:07:06.960,0:07:09.440 getting everybody to 0:07:09.440,0:07:11.440 move in the same direction 0:07:11.440,0:07:12.319 is 0:07:12.319,0:07:14.560 is a difficult task without getting 0:07:14.560,0:07:16.960 people to stare at you. So you want them 0:07:16.960,0:07:18.560 to stare at the idea, right? You don't 0:07:18.560,0:07:19.759 want them to overfocus on you, but 0:07:19.759,0:07:21.039 somebody has to present it, somebody has 0:07:21.039,0:07:22.800 to present it with clarity and get 0:07:22.800,0:07:25.039 everybody going, keep them enthusiastic, 0:07:25.039,0:07:27.840 keep that energy level up. And 0:07:27.840,0:07:30.000 so the type of person, and you've talked 0:07:30.000,0:07:31.280 really powerfully about this, the type of 0:07:31.280,0:07:34.720 person that is drawn to that can often 0:07:34.720,0:07:36.560 spill into the narcissistic, right? They 0:07:36.560,0:07:38.720 enjoy the attention and so some of what[br]Adam Grant: Yea. 0:07:38.720,0:07:40.800 Tom Bilyeu: they're seeking is that. And I'm just 0:07:40.800,0:07:42.319 curious how, 0:07:42.319,0:07:44.560 how somebody who really wants to help, 0:07:44.560,0:07:46.319 they really want to help sustain that 0:07:46.319,0:07:47.840 momentum, they want to be a beacon of 0:07:47.840,0:07:49.680 hope in this time, 0:07:49.680,0:07:51.039 how do they make it about the mission 0:07:51.039,0:07:53.039 and not about themselves? 0:07:53.039,0:07:54.080 Adam Grant: I think that's such an important 0:07:54.080,0:07:55.759 question Tom and I love how you've 0:07:55.759,0:07:57.599 highlighted that distinction. 0:07:57.599,0:07:59.199 I think that you know, for me it comes 0:07:59.199,0:08:01.520 down to promoting your ideas, not 0:08:01.520,0:08:02.800 yourself. 0:08:02.800,0:08:03.680 And 0:08:03.680,0:08:05.120 when I look at how leaders do that 0:08:05.120,0:08:06.560 effectively, one of the things that 0:08:06.560,0:08:08.400 really surprised me is sometimes the 0:08:08.400,0:08:10.879 message doesn't even come from them. 0:08:10.879,0:08:12.400 So as an example, years ago I was 0:08:12.400,0:08:14.400 studying fundraising callers, and they 0:08:14.400,0:08:16.160 were trying to bring in donations to a 0:08:16.160,0:08:17.360 university. 0:08:17.360,0:08:19.360 And the leaders were trying to 0:08:19.360,0:08:20.879 motivate them because this is hard work, 0:08:20.879,0:08:22.639 right? You interrupt people's dinner, 0:08:22.639,0:08:24.319 you try to convince them that no your 0:08:24.319,0:08:26.479 tuition was not enough, you should keep 0:08:26.479,0:08:28.240 sending money into the university and 0:08:28.240,0:08:30.560 now you should get nothing back for that 0:08:30.560,0:08:33.519 donation. So they got yelled at a lot, 0:08:33.519,0:08:35.120 they you know, they shouldered a lot of 0:08:35.120,0:08:36.559 complaints. And 0:08:36.559,0:08:38.559 the leaders tried to talk about why the 0:08:38.559,0:08:40.159 money was important and where it was 0:08:40.159,0:08:42.159 going and the callers just they looked 0:08:42.159,0:08:43.360 at that and they said 0:08:43.360,0:08:45.360 wait, these managers have an 0:08:45.360,0:08:47.120 ulterior motive, they want to motivate me 0:08:47.120,0:08:48.560 to work harder and bring in more 0:08:48.560,0:08:50.800 donations. And so you know, 0:08:50.800,0:08:52.959 I don't really buy into this whole story 0:08:52.959,0:08:54.399 they're telling me. 0:08:54.399,0:08:56.160 So what some of the leaders did then was 0:08:56.160,0:08:58.320 they actually outsourced inspiration and 0:08:58.320,0:09:00.000 they said okay, you know what, why do we 0:09:00.000,0:09:02.160 have to be the megaphone? What if instead, 0:09:02.160,0:09:04.240 we bring in some scholarship students 0:09:04.240,0:09:05.600 who could talk about being the 0:09:05.600,0:09:07.760 first-hand beneficiaries of the money 0:09:07.760,0:09:09.680 that's being raised by this call center. 0:09:09.680,0:09:11.279 And so we ended up designing some 0:09:11.279,0:09:13.360 experiments together and lo and behold 0:09:13.360,0:09:15.519 it turned out that that message was much 0:09:15.519,0:09:17.519 more compelling coming from the end user 0:09:17.519,0:09:19.920 who could say look, you know, I might 0:09:19.920,0:09:22.240 not have been able to afford tuition and 0:09:22.240,0:09:24.160 because of the work that you all do, I am 0:09:24.160,0:09:26.720 in college today and really show that 0:09:26.720,0:09:28.160 sense of appreciation as opposed to 0:09:28.160,0:09:29.920 managers doing it themselves. And so I 0:09:29.920,0:09:31.360 think sometimes one of the best ways to 0:09:31.360,0:09:34.080 energize people is to shut up, 0:09:34.080,0:09:36.959 and say instead let me find the you know, if 0:09:36.959,0:09:38.640 I've got a mission here, it's probably 0:09:38.640,0:09:40.160 affecting some group of clients or 0:09:40.160,0:09:42.800 customers or patients or end users, and 0:09:42.800,0:09:44.320 let me bring their voices front and 0:09:44.320,0:09:45.440 center. 0:09:45.440,0:09:47.200 Tom Bilyeu: Yeah, I love that notion of sometimes 0:09:47.200,0:09:49.040 what you need to do is listen. That's one 0:09:49.040,0:09:50.640 of my rules about being a leader is you 0:09:50.640,0:09:53.440 really have to listen. I read Nelson 0:09:53.440,0:09:55.600 Mandela's extraordinary book Long Walk 0:09:55.600,0:09:57.120 To Freedom, and in that he talks about 0:09:57.120,0:09:59.760 his father who was sort of a local 0:09:59.760,0:10:02.959 chief in his village, and he said that 0:10:02.959,0:10:04.640 he would always listen before he would 0:10:04.640,0:10:05.760 speak and he would make sure that 0:10:05.760,0:10:08.240 everybody else had their opportunity to 0:10:08.240,0:10:11.120 air their ideas, to air their grievances, 0:10:11.120,0:10:13.360 and only after that would he come in and 0:10:13.360,0:10:14.800 say okay here's what I think that we 0:10:14.800,0:10:16.800 need to do to move forward. So I'm a big 0:10:16.800,0:10:18.079 believer when you read something, if it 0:10:18.079,0:10:19.519 hits you and you think that this is a 0:10:19.519,0:10:20.720 useful thing that you should be deploying, 0:10:20.720,0:10:22.160 that you deploy it immediately. [br]Adam Grant: I love 0:10:22.160,0:10:24.079 the reference to Mandela because the 0:10:24.079,0:10:25.519 one thing that's always stuck with me 0:10:25.519,0:10:27.279 from his writing is the idea that a 0:10:27.279,0:10:28.959 leader is like a shepherd. 0:10:28.959,0:10:30.959 If you watch a shepherd with a flock, 0:10:30.959,0:10:33.360 the shepherd is rarely out front, 0:10:33.360,0:10:35.680 right? You will often see a bunch of 0:10:35.680,0:10:37.440 sheep leading the way and the shepherd 0:10:37.440,0:10:39.360 is kind of taking care of the stragglers. 0:10:39.360,0:10:40.399 There's a great organizational 0:10:40.399,0:10:42.399 psychologist, Victor Vroom, 0:10:42.399,0:10:44.240 who incidentally his license plate says 0:10:44.240,0:10:46.908 vroom on it which is just such a fun-[br]Tom Bilyeu: How could it not? 0:10:46.908,0:10:48.691 Adam Grant: A fun detail, right?[br]Tom Bilyeu: How could it not? 0:10:48.691,0:10:50.480 Adam Grant: I would do that if that were my name, so 0:10:50.480,0:10:52.079 one of the things that Victor studied 0:10:52.079,0:10:54.320 for years was the tension between 0:10:54.320,0:10:55.519 being a directive leader and a 0:10:55.519,0:10:57.040 participative leader. 0:10:57.040,0:10:58.560 And he said one of the fundamental 0:10:58.560,0:11:00.800 mistakes that a lot of leaders make is 0:11:00.800,0:11:02.800 they develop a style and then they 0:11:02.800,0:11:05.120 stick to that style, but the whole point 0:11:05.120,0:11:06.800 of leadership is flexibility and 0:11:06.800,0:11:09.279 adaptability. And so you can't just say 0:11:09.279,0:11:11.200 well I'm either an empowering 0:11:11.200,0:11:13.440 leader or I'm more of an authoritative 0:11:13.440,0:11:15.040 leader, you actually have to be willing 0:11:15.040,0:11:16.320 to adjust your style to fit the 0:11:16.320,0:11:17.440 situation. 0:11:17.440,0:11:19.120 And so what he was really interested in 0:11:19.120,0:11:21.760 is how do you flex effectively and he 0:11:21.760,0:11:22.560 found that there are a bunch of 0:11:22.560,0:11:24.320 conditions that really matter, a few that 0:11:24.320,0:11:25.680 stood out for me. 0:11:25.680,0:11:26.560 One, 0:11:26.560,0:11:28.800 relative expertise is huge, right? So when 0:11:28.800,0:11:30.399 I look at effective leaders, one of the 0:11:30.399,0:11:32.480 things I see over and over again is they 0:11:32.480,0:11:33.680 know what they know, they know what they 0:11:33.680,0:11:35.440 don't know and in situations where they 0:11:35.440,0:11:36.959 have more knowledge than their team 0:11:36.959,0:11:38.959 they're comfortable in the driver's seat. 0:11:38.959,0:11:40.000 When they don't know what they're 0:11:40.000,0:11:42.000 talking about they'll step back and move 0:11:42.000,0:11:43.519 into the passenger seat. 0:11:43.519,0:11:46.240 Some others were around getting buy in 0:11:46.240,0:11:48.079 and saying okay, you know the more 0:11:48.079,0:11:50.320 critical it is for people to you know, to 0:11:50.320,0:11:51.920 really get behind this mission, the more 0:11:51.920,0:11:54.079 I need to hear their voices and give 0:11:54.079,0:11:55.920 them a say. If people are already bought 0:11:55.920,0:11:58.160 in, then you know, then I can kind 0:11:58.160,0:11:59.200 of lead. 0:11:59.200,0:12:01.279 And I think that when I think about 0:12:01.279,0:12:02.240 leaders who've done this really 0:12:02.240,0:12:03.839 effectively, the examples that come 0:12:03.839,0:12:06.079 to mind all follow a common meeting 0:12:06.079,0:12:08.399 structure which is to open up by saying 0:12:08.399,0:12:10.560 look, here's the objective of the meeting. 0:12:10.560,0:12:12.079 Does anybody have any feedback on that 0:12:12.079,0:12:14.079 before we go forward? Okay, once we're 0:12:14.079,0:12:15.440 aligned on the objective, now I want to 0:12:15.440,0:12:16.639 go around and hear everybody's 0:12:16.639,0:12:19.120 independent view before I share mine. And 0:12:19.120,0:12:20.320 then at the end I'm going to try to 0:12:20.320,0:12:22.560 synthesize, add my perspective, and then 0:12:22.560,0:12:24.480 move us toward a decision. And what I 0:12:24.480,0:12:26.079 like about that is the leader is still 0:12:26.079,0:12:28.320 providing some guidance and direction, 0:12:28.320,0:12:30.399 but the leader is actually not 0:12:30.399,0:12:32.240 disclosing hey, you know, here's where I 0:12:32.240,0:12:34.800 stand and that way we don't run into 0:12:34.800,0:12:37.120 this conformity or group think problem. 0:12:37.120,0:12:40.000 I'd like to [inaudible] where the highest 0:12:40.000,0:12:41.839 paid person's opinion, the moment that's 0:12:41.839,0:12:43.600 known, everyone wants to jump on the 0:12:43.600,0:12:44.880 bandwagon. 0:12:44.880,0:12:46.639 Tom Bilyeu: Yeah. You cut out right as you said 0:12:46.639,0:12:47.920 it, but it's the HIPPO effect if i 0:12:47.920,0:12:49.200 remember correctly, I just want to make 0:12:49.200,0:12:51.120 sure people hear that. it's such a interesting 0:12:51.120,0:12:53.440 concept. So we hit the first part of 0:12:53.440,0:12:56.079 your leadership which is super powerful, 0:12:56.079,0:12:58.320 now talk to me about skills. Like what 0:12:58.320,0:13:00.079 are skills that a leader should be 0:13:00.079,0:13:01.440 developing? 0:13:01.440,0:13:03.279 Adam Grant: Yeah. So when I break down leadership 0:13:03.279,0:13:05.279 into skills, I think obviously 0:13:05.279,0:13:06.720 decision-making skills are critical, we 0:13:06.720,0:13:08.800 started talking about those already. 0:13:08.800,0:13:10.560 And I think decision-making skills have 0:13:10.560,0:13:11.680 to do with being willing to hear 0:13:11.680,0:13:13.600 dissenting views, right? Being willing to 0:13:13.600,0:13:16.320 confront perspectives that maybe bruise 0:13:16.320,0:13:17.839 your ego a little bit 0:13:17.839,0:13:19.760 in order to learn, and then in order to 0:13:19.760,0:13:21.120 gather better information and make 0:13:21.120,0:13:23.120 better choices. Uh so- [br]Tom Bilyeu: Can you give people an 0:13:23.120,0:13:26.079 example because this may be the most, the 0:13:26.079,0:13:27.760 thing that I've taken most deeply away 0:13:27.760,0:13:30.720 from your work is this because this, dude, 0:13:30.720,0:13:32.480 of all the powerful things that you have 0:13:32.480,0:13:33.920 already said and will say in the rest of 0:13:33.920,0:13:36.240 this time, this how to 0:13:36.240,0:13:37.760 improve yourself 0:13:37.760,0:13:39.920 to me is at the foundation of the 0:13:39.920,0:13:43.279 human experience. So 0:13:43.360,0:13:45.839 why have you become so 0:13:45.839,0:13:48.480 dogged in your pursuit of 0:13:48.480,0:13:50.639 critical feedback. 0:13:50.639,0:13:52.959 Adam Grant: I mean from my perspective, it's the only 0:13:52.959,0:13:55.600 way you get better, right? If people just 0:13:55.600,0:13:57.199 praise you over and over again, you're 0:13:57.199,0:13:58.560 only going to repeat the excellence 0:13:58.560,0:13:59.839 you've already achieved, 0:13:59.839,0:14:01.440 and you hit a plateau and then you're 0:14:01.440,0:14:03.760 done, like great. How exciting is 0:14:03.760,0:14:06.399 it to just say okay, I peaked already 0:14:06.399,0:14:08.000 and I'm gonna just try to maintain that 0:14:08.000,0:14:10.079 level. What I want to do is I want to 0:14:10.079,0:14:11.360 keep getting better 0:14:11.360,0:14:14.000 and I think to me it's so much 0:14:14.000,0:14:16.639 better to be on an upward trajectory 0:14:16.639,0:14:18.800 than it is to you know to flatline at 0:14:18.800,0:14:21.760 some level or to stagnate. And so 0:14:21.760,0:14:23.519 I think that requires short-term 0:14:23.519,0:14:25.199 sacrifices and it's a little bit like 0:14:25.199,0:14:27.199 the you know, the professional version of 0:14:27.199,0:14:29.360 what you just described you know, in 0:14:29.360,0:14:31.839 a personal relationship which is if I 0:14:31.839,0:14:33.839 want to, if I want to achieve whatever 0:14:33.839,0:14:35.600 potential I'm capable of, 0:14:35.600,0:14:37.839 I have to be willing to hurt myself 0:14:37.839,0:14:39.760 in the moment in order to you know to be 0:14:39.760,0:14:41.360 a little bit stronger tomorrow. I mean 0:14:41.360,0:14:42.800 it's a lot like weight training, right? 0:14:42.800,0:14:44.800 You know you have to tear a muscle 0:14:44.800,0:14:46.639 in order to build it into you know, into 0:14:46.639,0:14:48.320 a stronger muscle, and so 0:14:48.320,0:14:49.680 I feel like we should think about our 0:14:49.680,0:14:51.519 skills and our capabilities the same way 0:14:51.519,0:14:52.800 that we do 0:14:52.800,0:14:55.600 you know, our bodies in that sense. So 0:14:55.600,0:14:57.040 I guess this is something I learned 0:14:57.040,0:14:59.120 first as an athlete, not a real athlete 0:14:59.120,0:15:01.680 mind you just a springboard diver, but- 0:15:01.680,0:15:03.040 Tom Bilyeu: I've seen footage of your springboard 0:15:03.040,0:15:05.279 diving, it's pretty impressive. 0:15:05.279,0:15:06.880 Adam Grant: It would be a lot more impressive if I was 0:15:06.880,0:15:09.120 a little bit more talented and a little 0:15:09.120,0:15:10.160 bit less, 0:15:10.160,0:15:12.880 less stubborn. But one of the things that 0:15:12.880,0:15:15.920 I learned as a diver right away was I 0:15:15.920,0:15:18.480 couldn't see myself in the air, right? And 0:15:18.480,0:15:20.560 so what I would feel when I was flipping 0:15:20.560,0:15:22.399 or twisting or even when I was entering 0:15:22.399,0:15:24.160 the water was completely different in 0:15:24.160,0:15:26.240 many cases from what the judges would 0:15:26.240,0:15:27.040 see. 0:15:27.040,0:15:29.360 And so you know, very early on I became 0:15:29.360,0:15:32.160 extremely dependent on my coach and then 0:15:32.160,0:15:34.800 also on video to really try to process 0:15:34.800,0:15:36.800 the disconnect between what I thought I 0:15:36.800,0:15:39.519 was doing and what was coming across. 0:15:39.519,0:15:42.399 And that, as I moved into you know, into 0:15:42.399,0:15:45.120 work life, that became sort of a metaphor 0:15:45.120,0:15:47.360 for what we all deal with. You know, I 0:15:47.360,0:15:49.440 think we definitely have, we all have 0:15:49.440,0:15:51.199 bright spots, right, which are strengths 0:15:51.199,0:15:53.360 we can't see, but we have also lots of 0:15:53.360,0:15:54.880 blind spots which are weaknesses that we 0:15:54.880,0:15:57.440 don't have access to, and so what I 0:15:57.440,0:15:59.360 wanted was the clearest possible rear 0:15:59.360,0:16:01.920 view mirror to say if I can't see in 0:16:01.920,0:16:03.680 that then you know, I can't really figure 0:16:03.680,0:16:04.880 out what I need to learn and what I need 0:16:04.880,0:16:06.399 to get better at. So 0:16:06.399,0:16:08.320 I started doing this in the classroom 0:16:08.320,0:16:09.600 where you know, I would just have 0:16:09.600,0:16:12.160 students fill out feedback forms, first 0:16:12.160,0:16:13.600 when I gave guest lectures then when I 0:16:13.600,0:16:15.600 started teaching classes. I just say 0:16:15.600,0:16:17.120 tell me everything you want me to do 0:16:17.120,0:16:18.880 more of and everything you want me to 0:16:18.880,0:16:19.680 change. 0:16:19.680,0:16:20.720 And then I would just share all the 0:16:20.720,0:16:22.399 feedback with them verbatim which was my 0:16:22.399,0:16:24.079 own version of radical transparency I 0:16:24.079,0:16:26.399 guess, and then we can have a thoughtful 0:16:26.399,0:16:28.160 conversation about how I can fix those 0:16:28.160,0:16:30.639 problems and improve upon those you know 0:16:30.639,0:16:32.639 those areas of weakness. And that became 0:16:32.639,0:16:34.399 a conversation that really turned the 0:16:34.399,0:16:36.560 students I was teaching into my coaches 0:16:36.560,0:16:38.480 which was immensely helpful and made me 0:16:38.480,0:16:40.399 much less awful at public speaking than 0:16:40.399,0:16:42.959 I was when I started. [br]Tom Bilyeu: Dude I love that. 0:16:42.959,0:16:44.320 Going back to what you were saying about 0:16:44.320,0:16:45.839 in athletics. 0:16:45.839,0:16:48.160 So I used to skateboard, I will put that 0:16:48.160,0:16:49.360 very lightly. 0:16:49.360,0:16:51.040 I used to enjoy standing on a board with 0:16:51.040,0:16:52.959 four wheels is probably a more accurate 0:16:52.959,0:16:54.639 description. And I remember trying to 0:16:54.639,0:16:56.800 learn how to ollie and I'd finally 0:16:56.800,0:16:58.240 gotten good where I could ollie pretty 0:16:58.240,0:17:01.040 high, I was really proud of it. And then 0:17:01.040,0:17:02.560 the kids that I was skating with were 0:17:02.560,0:17:04.480 like you do know that your back wheels 0:17:04.480,0:17:06.000 never leave the ground, right? And I was 0:17:06.000,0:17:06.799 like 0:17:06.799,0:17:09.119 what? What are you talking about? That, 0:17:09.119,0:17:11.359 that's not possible. I'm ollieing high. 0:17:11.359,0:17:12.880 I legitimately did not believe them. I'm 0:17:12.880,0:17:14.480 like, when you talk about how it feels 0:17:14.480,0:17:15.760 inside versus what it actually looks 0:17:15.760,0:17:17.119 like outside, 0:17:17.119,0:17:19.280 I was like I can feel it man, I'm like 0:17:19.280,0:17:21.359 really doing this. And so they said let 0:17:21.359,0:17:23.280 me film you and they filmed me and I 0:17:23.280,0:17:24.880 wasn't. Only my front wheels were coming 0:17:24.880,0:17:27.520 off. I could not fathom that that 0:17:27.520,0:17:30.480 feedback was real and because of that 0:17:30.480,0:17:33.440 disconnect and so getting that objective 0:17:33.440,0:17:36.799 look at myself was really transformative. 0:17:36.799,0:17:38.080 At the beginning you said that you'd be 0:17:38.080,0:17:40.000 a better diver if you were less stubborn, 0:17:40.000,0:17:41.679 what did you mean by that?[br]Adam Grant: I remember one 0:17:41.679,0:17:42.880 day I was just trying to do a 0:17:42.880,0:17:44.880 front dive with a half twist. So you take 0:17:44.880,0:17:46.640 off, you're going in the water, and then 0:17:46.640,0:17:48.559 you kind of turn into a back dive. 0:17:48.559,0:17:50.640 And I had I guess, a mental image of 0:17:50.640,0:17:52.320 where the twist happened that defied the 0:17:52.320,0:17:54.480 laws of physics and, by the way, my diving 0:17:54.480,0:17:56.480 coach was a physics teacher 0:17:56.480,0:17:58.559 and I still argued with him, right? I was 0:17:58.559,0:18:00.160 so sure that I was right because I felt 0:18:00.160,0:18:02.080 like I was turning over one way and he 0:18:02.080,0:18:04.000 said okay, I'm just gonna have to show 0:18:04.000,0:18:05.280 you the tape because you won't believe 0:18:05.280,0:18:07.280 me. And my teammates were making fun of 0:18:07.280,0:18:09.440 me and you know, I wasted an hour and a 0:18:09.440,0:18:11.520 half of that practice, but that became a 0:18:11.520,0:18:14.400 microcosm for a series of mistakes that 0:18:14.400,0:18:16.000 I was making which is, I was so 0:18:16.000,0:18:18.160 determined to be right 0:18:18.160,0:18:19.679 that I was standing in my own way of 0:18:19.679,0:18:22.080 getting it right. And so I decided I 0:18:22.080,0:18:23.440 was going to be really quick moving 0:18:23.440,0:18:24.400 forward 0:18:24.400,0:18:26.080 to admit when I was wrong about 0:18:26.080,0:18:27.919 something and then try to improve upon 0:18:27.919,0:18:29.919 it and that's I guess, that's become a 0:18:29.919,0:18:32.400 metaphor for how I try to live my life. 0:18:32.400,0:18:34.320 Tom Bilyeu: Oh my god, you have to talk about Shane. 0:18:34.320,0:18:35.919 Please tell us that story because it is so 0:18:35.919,0:18:37.760 crazy and so perfect for how I think 0:18:37.760,0:18:39.520 people should approach life. 0:18:39.520,0:18:41.039 Adam Grant: Yeah. So 0:18:41.039,0:18:42.480 I think anybody who hasn't heard of 0:18:42.480,0:18:44.320 Shane Battier, there's a reason for 0:18:44.320,0:18:46.480 that. If you know, if you don't follow 0:18:46.480,0:18:49.360 basketball closely, Shane was a 0:18:49.360,0:18:52.320 superstar for his whole career. He was 0:18:52.320,0:18:53.919 the player of the year in high school, he 0:18:53.919,0:18:55.760 was the captain of the Duke national 0:18:55.760,0:18:57.200 championship team, 0:18:57.200,0:18:58.880 and then he got to the NBA and 0:18:58.880,0:19:00.720 discovered that pretty much everybody 0:19:00.720,0:19:02.720 there was more physically talented than 0:19:02.720,0:19:03.840 he was. 0:19:03.840,0:19:05.200 People would complain that he was too 0:19:05.200,0:19:07.280 slow, he couldn't dribble, 0:19:07.280,0:19:09.520 and this was a real liability, right, if 0:19:09.520,0:19:10.720 you want to be one of the few hundred 0:19:10.720,0:19:12.000 people in the world who can play 0:19:12.000,0:19:14.240 professional basketball. And so what 0:19:14.240,0:19:15.919 Shane did, this was first captured by 0:19:15.919,0:19:18.080 Michael Lewis in a wonderful article called 0:19:18.080,0:19:20.000 the No-Stats All-Star, 0:19:20.000,0:19:21.760 was he said okay, I'm going to master the 0:19:21.760,0:19:23.760 intangibles. And some of that is obvious 0:19:23.760,0:19:26.080 right, I'm going to dive for loose balls, 0:19:26.080,0:19:27.520 I'm going to you know, I'm going to take 0:19:27.520,0:19:28.960 shots that, 0:19:28.960,0:19:30.400 that are really critical for the team 0:19:30.400,0:19:31.679 even though they don't bring me a lot of 0:19:31.679,0:19:34.160 glory necessarily. But he also said you 0:19:34.160,0:19:36.400 know what, I'm going to master statistics 0:19:36.400,0:19:38.160 and I'm going to find the one spot on 0:19:38.160,0:19:40.640 the court that you know, that the guy I'm 0:19:40.640,0:19:42.559 guarding tonight can't shoot from and 0:19:42.559,0:19:44.080 I'm gonna force him there, 0:19:44.080,0:19:46.080 and I'm also gonna figure out where you 0:19:46.080,0:19:47.760 know, where my game is optimized by 0:19:47.760,0:19:49.520 studying what the gaps in my team are 0:19:49.520,0:19:51.600 and then figuring out how I can fill. 0:19:51.600,0:19:53.120 And if you think about that, that is the 0:19:53.120,0:19:55.200 nexus of you know, of generosity and 0:19:55.200,0:19:57.760 humility, right? Shane is asking how do I 0:19:57.760,0:19:59.600 make my team better, right? It's not about 0:19:59.600,0:20:01.440 me, I want to, I want to contribute to a 0:20:01.440,0:20:02.799 championship team. 0:20:02.799,0:20:06.400 And he's asking how do I reinvent myself 0:20:06.400,0:20:08.080 in order to you know, to become the 0:20:08.080,0:20:10.160 player who adds that kind of value? 0:20:10.160,0:20:11.679 And you know, if you look at the data he 0:20:11.679,0:20:13.760 was one of the most effective players on 0:20:13.760,0:20:15.840 a court in the sense that there's a huge 0:20:15.840,0:20:17.520 discrepancy between how well a team 0:20:17.520,0:20:19.679 performs when he's on the bench versus 0:20:19.679,0:20:21.120 when he's playing, 0:20:21.120,0:20:23.039 even though he doesn't have you know, a 0:20:23.039,0:20:25.120 crazy number of points scored or assists 0:20:25.120,0:20:27.520 or rebounds or shots blocked. 0:20:27.520,0:20:28.880 And I think that that's something 0:20:28.880,0:20:30.480 we need in every team. 0:20:30.480,0:20:31.760 I think it's you know, it's somebody 0:20:31.760,0:20:33.679 who's there to say there is no task 0:20:33.679,0:20:35.200 that's beneath me, 0:20:35.200,0:20:37.360 and if the leader is that person, that 0:20:37.360,0:20:40.159 has a huge cascading effect. 0:20:40.159,0:20:41.919 Tom Bilyeu: Dude that, like you want to talk about 0:20:41.919,0:20:43.760 something that leaders need to be able 0:20:43.760,0:20:45.200 to do it's 0:20:45.200,0:20:46.880 nothing is beneath you. Another stat in 0:20:46.880,0:20:47.919 basketball that you've talked about 0:20:47.919,0:20:49.440 which is teams that have the most 0:20:49.440,0:20:51.679 all-stars tend to perform the worst 0:20:51.679,0:20:53.130 which I think is really pretty interesting. 0:20:53.130,0:20:54.400 Adam Grant: If you have a whole team of 0:20:54.400,0:20:55.600 all-stars, 0:20:55.600,0:20:57.520 they're less likely to want to do that, 0:20:57.520,0:20:59.039 right? Everybody wants to take the 0:20:59.039,0:21:01.280 game-winning shot and so yeah, there are 0:21:01.280,0:21:04.080 studies both in basketball as well as in 0:21:04.080,0:21:05.840 in professional soccer 0:21:05.840,0:21:08.400 showing that if you have a team of more 0:21:08.400,0:21:10.000 than about 60 percent 0:21:10.000,0:21:12.559 superstars, your odds of winning a 0:21:12.559,0:21:14.000 championship or having a highly 0:21:14.000,0:21:16.480 successful season go down because you're 0:21:16.480,0:21:18.480 missing the role players. And so whenever 0:21:18.480,0:21:20.960 I hear a CEO say well, I only hire A 0:21:20.960,0:21:22.880 players, I think well you know what, 0:21:22.880,0:21:25.360 there's a lot of important work that A 0:21:25.360,0:21:27.200 players don't want to do. And so I think 0:21:27.200,0:21:28.960 that's the wrong mentality, I think the 0:21:28.960,0:21:31.120 evidence would tell us that an A team is 0:21:31.120,0:21:34.012 actually composed of A and B and C players. 0:21:34.012,0:21:35.360 Tom Bilyeu: I am so desperate to get Phil 0:21:35.360,0:21:36.720 Jackson on the show. I don't know if you 0:21:36.720,0:21:39.919 read his book Eleven Rings, but oh man when 0:21:39.919,0:21:41.440 he talks about how 0:21:41.440,0:21:43.200 we weren't winning championships when 0:21:43.200,0:21:45.039 Jordan was just the best player in the 0:21:45.039,0:21:47.120 NBA, we started winning championships[br]Adam Grant: Yeah. 0:21:47.120,0:21:49.120 Tom Bilyeu: when he became a leader and when he 0:21:49.120,0:21:51.360 realized you can't just punch people in 0:21:51.360,0:21:53.600 the face and hope that that is going to 0:21:53.600,0:21:55.360 take you like that, it will inspire them 0:21:55.360,0:21:57.520 to elevate their game, he was like you 0:21:57.520,0:21:59.039 have got to find a way to connect with 0:21:59.039,0:22:00.960 these guys to bring them together. And he 0:22:00.960,0:22:02.559 said when I was able to focus him on 0:22:02.559,0:22:04.320 leadership and really being a leader, 0:22:04.320,0:22:06.000 then we start taking off and he was like 0:22:06.000,0:22:08.480 look, he was still Michael, he was still 0:22:08.480,0:22:10.640 super hardcore, but 0:22:10.640,0:22:12.640 in recognizing that he wasn't going to 0:22:12.640,0:22:15.600 be able to win by himself, and you 0:22:15.600,0:22:16.720 know, I think that speaks to your 0:22:16.720,0:22:19.200 earliest point about the best leaders 0:22:19.200,0:22:21.600 being servant leaders and being able to 0:22:21.600,0:22:23.360 recognize how they have to give and 0:22:23.360,0:22:24.960 not just take is pretty extraordinary. 0:22:24.960,0:22:26.559 Adam Grant: Yeah. One of the questions I've 0:22:26.559,0:22:27.919 gotten really interested in lately is 0:22:27.919,0:22:29.760 the question of leader emergence. So 0:22:29.760,0:22:31.679 you've got a team and you have 0:22:31.679,0:22:33.760 different levels of ability and then 0:22:33.760,0:22:35.200 you know, somebody steps up and becomes 0:22:35.200,0:22:37.760 the the informal leader. What drives that? 0:22:37.760,0:22:39.039 And you know, sometimes it's just the 0:22:39.039,0:22:40.480 most competent person, 0:22:40.480,0:22:42.400 but often it's what psychologists 0:22:42.400,0:22:44.640 would call prototypicality which is to 0:22:44.640,0:22:46.559 say what does the group stand for and 0:22:46.559,0:22:48.799 then who's the person who's most likely 0:22:48.799,0:22:51.280 to exemplify the essence or the 0:22:51.280,0:22:53.039 identity of the group. And 0:22:53.039,0:22:54.640 I think that's something that 0:22:54.640,0:22:56.240 very few people stop to think through 0:22:56.240,0:22:57.760 when you know, when they either start a 0:22:57.760,0:22:59.919 new job or when they build a team, is to 0:22:59.919,0:23:01.919 say okay, if I were to make a list of the 0:23:01.919,0:23:03.919 values that are distinctive, central, and 0:23:03.919,0:23:06.960 enduring to this team or to this company, 0:23:06.960,0:23:08.640 what are they? And then how do I make 0:23:08.640,0:23:11.523 sure that I represent the most core values? 0:23:11.523,0:23:12.960 Tom Bilyeu: All right, now we have to talk and 0:23:12.960,0:23:14.640 I fear that I'm misremembering the words 0:23:14.640,0:23:16.480 you use but cognitive entrenchment? 0:23:16.480,0:23:17.760 That's close[br]Adam Grant: Haha, yeah. 0:23:17.760,0:23:20.981 Tom Bilyeu: Um so that-[br]Adam Grant: No that, that's the phrase. 0:23:20.981,0:23:21.679 Tom Bilyeu: When I think about 0:23:21.679,0:23:23.280 people getting stuck because humans hate 0:23:23.280,0:23:24.880 change as you were saying what Larry 0:23:24.880,0:23:26.640 Page said I was like, oh good luck man, 0:23:26.640,0:23:28.640 like people really hate change, but 0:23:28.640,0:23:30.799 it's such a powerful idea. So 0:23:30.799,0:23:33.039 how do you deal with cognitive 0:23:33.039,0:23:34.720 entrenchment? 0:23:34.720,0:23:36.159 Adam Grant: So when I think about cognitive 0:23:36.159,0:23:37.760 entrenchment, there was a brilliant paper 0:23:37.760,0:23:39.520 that Eric Dane wrote about this and he 0:23:39.520,0:23:41.200 said look, you know we generally 0:23:41.200,0:23:43.120 assume that the more expertise you gain, 0:23:43.120,0:23:45.039 the more creative you're going to be, and 0:23:45.039,0:23:46.400 yet if you study the relationship 0:23:46.400,0:23:48.320 between expertise and creativity, it's 0:23:48.320,0:23:50.400 not linear, it's curvilinear. There's 0:23:50.400,0:23:52.159 such a thing as being too knowledgeable, 0:23:52.159,0:23:54.480 like wait, how could that be? Wait I just, I 0:23:54.480,0:23:56.159 should, I should stop learning? 0:23:56.159,0:23:58.240 No. What he's saying is that oftentimes 0:23:58.240,0:24:00.320 when you get really deep in a domain, 0:24:00.320,0:24:01.679 you start to take for granted 0:24:01.679,0:24:03.600 assumptions that need to be questioned 0:24:03.600,0:24:04.880 and you don't even know you're taking 0:24:04.880,0:24:06.799 them for granted. You're like a fish that 0:24:06.799,0:24:09.039 doesn't realize it's in water. And there 0:24:09.039,0:24:10.480 are some really funny demonstrations of 0:24:10.480,0:24:13.200 this like expert bridge players. If you 0:24:13.200,0:24:14.720 change the rules up on them, they 0:24:14.720,0:24:16.559 actually perform worse than a lot of 0:24:16.559,0:24:18.960 novices do or if you take really skilled 0:24:18.960,0:24:21.360 and experienced accountants. If you 0:24:21.360,0:24:23.200 look at how they adjust to a tax law, 0:24:23.200,0:24:25.440 they're slower to adapt than people who[br]Tom Bilyeu: Woah. 0:24:25.440,0:24:27.279 Adam Grant: are just learning the accounting trade 0:24:27.279,0:24:29.360 And you know, those are examples of 0:24:29.360,0:24:30.960 cognitive entrenchment, right? People get, 0:24:30.960,0:24:32.320 they get sort of accustomed to a 0:24:32.320,0:24:34.159 particular way of thinking and solving 0:24:34.159,0:24:35.679 problems and then they don't want to 0:24:35.679,0:24:36.880 undo that 0:24:36.880,0:24:39.279 and I worry a lot about that. 0:24:39.279,0:24:40.960 I think that you know, organizations, 0:24:40.960,0:24:42.000 you're starting to talk about 0:24:42.000,0:24:43.919 organizations get entrenched too, right? 0:24:43.919,0:24:45.520 This is the way we've always done it. 0:24:45.520,0:24:47.919 Well that will never work around here. 0:24:47.919,0:24:49.760 And those to me are some of 0:24:49.760,0:24:51.679 the great warning signs that a culture 0:24:51.679,0:24:54.159 is in danger of groupthink. I think 0:24:54.159,0:24:56.720 the first thing to do is to run 0:24:56.720,0:24:58.559 the exercise of asking what's missing 0:24:58.559,0:25:00.960 from our culture? If you know, if 0:25:00.960,0:25:03.679 there's a pattern, a behavior, a routine, 0:25:03.679,0:25:05.760 a way of thinking that we wish we had 0:25:05.760,0:25:07.840 but we didn't, what is it? 0:25:07.840,0:25:09.200 And then how do we go out and find 0:25:09.200,0:25:11.360 people who excel at that? How do we 0:25:11.360,0:25:13.520 collectively and you know, adjust our 0:25:13.520,0:25:14.880 behaviors a little bit to move in that 0:25:14.880,0:25:15.840 direction. 0:25:15.840,0:25:17.760 I think IDEO did this beautifully so 0:25:17.760,0:25:20.960 you know IDEO of course, Tom. 0:25:20.960,0:25:22.320 I knew them originally as the 0:25:22.320,0:25:23.760 company that invented the mouse for 0:25:23.760,0:25:26.080 Apple. And they've done all kinds of 0:25:26.080,0:25:28.159 creative work since then as a great 0:25:28.159,0:25:30.559 design consultancy. And after a while 0:25:30.559,0:25:31.760 they realized you know we have a lot of 0:25:31.760,0:25:33.440 engineers and designers, 0:25:33.440,0:25:34.799 but we're getting called into these 0:25:34.799,0:25:36.799 weird worlds and we're not really sure 0:25:36.799,0:25:38.480 how to solve the problems that we face 0:25:38.480,0:25:40.320 in those worlds like they were tasked to 0:25:40.320,0:25:42.080 redesign a shopping cart in a grocery 0:25:42.080,0:25:42.960 store, 0:25:42.960,0:25:45.360 and then to reimagine Sesame Street as a 0:25:45.360,0:25:47.919 TV show and they're like this is not mouse building 0:25:47.919,0:25:49.440 anymore. 0:25:49.440,0:25:51.760 We need to figure out how to 0:25:51.760,0:25:54.000 learn about a new world really quickly, 0:25:54.000,0:25:56.400 and so they actually created a new job 0:25:56.400,0:25:58.320 that was called anthropologists and they 0:25:58.320,0:25:59.760 said look, this is what anthropologists 0:25:59.760,0:26:01.840 do for a living, they go out into foreign 0:26:01.840,0:26:03.440 cultures and they make sense of them and 0:26:03.440,0:26:05.520 they bring that understanding back. 0:26:05.520,0:26:07.200 And so they literally went and hired 0:26:07.200,0:26:08.559 anthropologists because they discovered 0:26:08.559,0:26:09.919 there was a skill set they were missing 0:26:09.919,0:26:11.679 in their culture which was very design 0:26:11.679,0:26:13.520 and engineering focused and I think that 0:26:13.520,0:26:15.600 exercise could be run in every company 0:26:15.600,0:26:17.440 and it's a great way of identifying 0:26:17.440,0:26:18.880 those gaps and then not getting 0:26:18.880,0:26:20.799 entrenched. What's your take, how 0:26:20.799,0:26:23.120 do you think about solving that problem? 0:26:23.120,0:26:26.880 Tom Bilyeu: So one, I think everybody has to agree on 0:26:26.880,0:26:29.279 what their goal is. So part of what I try 0:26:29.279,0:26:31.840 to do is 0:26:31.840,0:26:33.600 make sure that core values that are 0:26:33.600,0:26:35.360 innate to the person that we hire are 0:26:35.360,0:26:37.520 already there, so if somebody 0:26:37.520,0:26:39.679 doesn't, like I think that you have to 0:26:39.679,0:26:41.679 filter to a large extent and so the 0:26:41.679,0:26:42.880 question is what do you filter for and I 0:26:42.880,0:26:44.640 think most people filter for skill set. 0:26:44.640,0:26:46.640 It's very easy to put on a resume. 0:26:46.640,0:26:49.039 It's much easier to test in an interview. 0:26:49.039,0:26:51.919 But the thing that we filter for is do 0:26:51.919,0:26:53.840 you have a growth mindset? And I feel 0:26:53.840,0:26:55.760 like that is one of the most fundamental 0:26:55.760,0:26:57.440 things. I get asked a lot about like 0:26:57.440,0:26:58.799 hey I want to be in a relationship like 0:26:58.799,0:27:00.400 you and your wife like how do i do it? 0:27:00.400,0:27:01.840 And I'm like 80 percent of the battle is 0:27:01.840,0:27:04.159 selection and if Lisa didn't have a 0:27:04.159,0:27:05.919 growth mindset or I didn't have a growth 0:27:05.919,0:27:07.440 mindset and we weren't willing to get 0:27:07.440,0:27:09.200 better and improve, 0:27:09.200,0:27:10.640 then it would be nightmarish and you end 0:27:10.640,0:27:11.360 up, 0:27:11.360,0:27:12.960 one of you grows typically and the other 0:27:12.960,0:27:14.240 doesn't and you know, it becomes this 0:27:14.240,0:27:16.000 real drama. So looking for people that 0:27:16.000,0:27:18.240 have a growth mindset, so at the core all 0:27:18.240,0:27:20.960 I have to do is appeal to that, right? So 0:27:20.960,0:27:22.320 as you were talking about what people 0:27:22.320,0:27:24.640 have to do to improve a culture, 0:27:24.640,0:27:26.080 my belief is 0:27:26.080,0:27:27.679 your current skill set or your current 0:27:27.679,0:27:28.960 culture however you want to think of it, 0:27:28.960,0:27:30.240 has already taken you as far as it's 0:27:30.240,0:27:32.400 going to take you. So if you're happy 0:27:32.400,0:27:33.679 where you're at and like you said 0:27:33.679,0:27:34.799 earlier, and you're comfortable being in 0:27:34.799,0:27:37.120 that plateau forever, then hey, yay, you 0:27:37.120,0:27:39.840 already won, but my thing is I'm not and 0:27:39.840,0:27:41.279 certainly in a business, if you're not 0:27:41.279,0:27:42.799 growing the odds of you getting 0:27:42.799,0:27:45.200 supplanted by somebody who comes out of 0:27:45.200,0:27:47.679 left field with some new innovation that, 0:27:47.679,0:27:50.320 you're just gonna get beaten to death.[br]Adam Grant: Yeah. 0:27:50.320,0:27:53.039 Tom Bilyeu: So I appeal to those sort of just they 0:27:53.039,0:27:55.200 are the physics of being human, they are 0:27:55.200,0:27:56.640 the physics of running a company, you 0:27:56.640,0:27:59.679 have to be improving. As a person the 0:27:59.679,0:28:01.039 meaning of life is to see how many 0:28:01.039,0:28:02.799 skills or how much potential you can 0:28:02.799,0:28:04.720 turn into actual usable skills, so it's 0:28:04.720,0:28:06.159 like I would be asking all right, as we 0:28:06.159,0:28:08.080 try to evolve this culture and somebody 0:28:08.080,0:28:09.200 offers an 0:28:09.200,0:28:11.120 idea, I would say how does it make us 0:28:11.120,0:28:13.840 better in any sort of measurable way? 0:28:13.840,0:28:16.080 Is it gonna help us innovate so that we 0:28:16.080,0:28:18.399 don't get supplanted by a new player? Is 0:28:18.399,0:28:20.480 it going to 0:28:20.480,0:28:22.640 allow us to do more with less? Like what 0:28:22.640,0:28:24.799 is the outcome that you're trying 0:28:24.799,0:28:26.240 to get because I find that in life 0:28:26.240,0:28:28.880 people steer by a vague sense and you 0:28:28.880,0:28:31.200 have to migrate them away from a vague 0:28:31.200,0:28:32.480 sense into something that is 0:28:32.480,0:28:35.039 articulatable into a very specific goal 0:28:35.039,0:28:37.440 with a timeline, how much, exactly what. 0:28:37.440,0:28:38.960 Those three elements being critical to a 0:28:38.960,0:28:41.279 goal and then having an informed 0:28:41.279,0:28:42.640 hypothesis about how to get there and 0:28:42.640,0:28:45.520 the informed is the key part and so 0:28:45.520,0:28:46.799 we've broken down, so what I call the 0:28:46.799,0:28:49.200 physics of progress, and we've turned 0:28:49.200,0:28:50.640 everything into 0:28:50.640,0:28:52.720 sort of a stateable formula which is the 0:28:52.720,0:28:55.840 most effective way to do insert goal is 0:28:55.840,0:28:58.480 to insert what i call a lever action, a 0:28:58.480,0:29:00.559 binary thing that you either do or don't 0:29:00.559,0:29:03.200 do. It isn't incumbent upon the 0:29:03.200,0:29:05.039 outside world to give you anything, it's 0:29:05.039,0:29:06.640 like either we do this or we don't, and 0:29:06.640,0:29:08.960 so that's our informed hypothesis. I know 0:29:08.960,0:29:10.880 enough about it you know, to say I think 0:29:10.880,0:29:13.120 this will work but I know enough about 0:29:13.120,0:29:15.039 the realities of myself and the world to 0:29:15.039,0:29:16.960 know I can't guess at whether this will 0:29:16.960,0:29:19.200 actually work I have to test it. 0:29:19.200,0:29:22.080 Adam Grant: I love formulating that as the hypothesis 0:29:22.080,0:29:24.080 because I've seen so many companies 0:29:24.080,0:29:26.720 get in the trap of declaring the best 0:29:26.720,0:29:28.640 practices and then never questioning 0:29:28.640,0:29:30.880 them until it's too late. And I think 0:29:30.880,0:29:32.480 what you've just outlined is a really 0:29:32.480,0:29:34.399 effective way to keep learning. 0:29:34.399,0:29:36.799 Tom Bilyeu: Yeah. And at an institutional level 0:29:36.799,0:29:37.919 it becomes 0:29:37.919,0:29:41.120 harder because you have so many of the, 0:29:41.120,0:29:43.200 a company is not a nameless, faceless 0:29:43.200,0:29:45.840 entity, it is entirely the sum total 0:29:45.840,0:29:47.840 of the actual human beings that make up 0:29:47.840,0:29:50.640 that company. So if at the individual 0:29:50.640,0:29:52.720 level you have a 0:29:52.720,0:29:54.399 sickness which could be cognitive 0:29:54.399,0:29:56.880 entrenchment, then the organization is 0:29:56.880,0:29:58.399 going to have that same sickness of 0:29:58.399,0:30:01.200 cognitive entrenchment. So it's 0:30:01.200,0:30:03.679 trying to find a way to boil this down 0:30:03.679,0:30:05.840 where everybody can take ownership of it 0:30:05.840,0:30:08.799 and make those changes, be focused on the 0:30:08.799,0:30:10.880 same desired outcome which is constant 0:30:10.880,0:30:13.200 self-improvement in our company, 0:30:13.200,0:30:15.200 otherwise you, 0:30:15.200,0:30:17.360 there's so much inertia to staying the 0:30:17.360,0:30:18.799 same, you just won't be able to get out 0:30:18.799,0:30:21.120 of it because everybody has that vague 0:30:21.120,0:30:24.399 sense. And I find that's the most 0:30:24.399,0:30:27.360 prototypical human sickness, is a vague 0:30:27.360,0:30:29.440 sense. I have like, what do you want to do, 0:30:29.440,0:30:30.799 this is perfect to speak to an Olympic 0:30:30.799,0:30:32.880 diver, what do you want to do? I want to 0:30:32.880,0:30:35.200 win a gold medal and that is where I 0:30:35.200,0:30:36.640 promise you most people stop. I want to 0:30:36.640,0:30:38.960 win a gold medal. Awesome, in what? The 0:30:38.960,0:30:42.559 Olympics? Yes, the Olympics. Amazing! Summer 0:30:42.559,0:30:45.360 or Winter? Summer. Fantastic. 0:30:45.360,0:30:47.760 Swimming, diving, tennis like where are we 0:30:47.760,0:30:49.360 at here? And then you get all the way 0:30:49.360,0:30:51.200 down to I want to be you know, the 10 0:30:51.200,0:30:53.520 meter springboard champion or 0:30:53.520,0:30:54.960 whatever, I'm not even sure if that's a 0:30:54.960,0:30:57.039 thing, but like you get the idea. 0:30:57.039,0:30:59.103 You know exactly-[br]Adam Grant: I mean a 10 meter board would scare 0:30:59.103,0:31:02.000 the hell out of everyone. [Laughter] 0:31:02.000,0:31:04.640 Tom Bilyeu: So you know specifically what you 0:31:04.640,0:31:05.840 want to do and therefore you know 0:31:05.840,0:31:07.120 specifically what you have to get good 0:31:07.120,0:31:08.880 at. 0:31:08.880,0:31:10.159 Adam Grant: Do you ever feel like people get 0:31:10.159,0:31:13.440 exhausted by constant self-improvement? 0:31:14.880,0:31:16.720 Tom Bilyeu: I'll speak for myself, I've never, i 0:31:16.720,0:31:18.000 haven't been thoughtful enough to ask 0:31:18.000,0:31:20.000 that question. So 0:31:20.000,0:31:22.720 where I come down on this is like you 0:31:22.720,0:31:24.320 talking about okay, somebody telling me 0:31:24.320,0:31:26.799 that I move like a muppet, it sucks in 0:31:26.799,0:31:28.880 the short term, but obviously your 0:31:28.880,0:31:31.120 behavior tells me that you're focused on 0:31:31.120,0:31:32.640 the long term like what can be gained 0:31:32.640,0:31:34.320 from your improvement. The fact that you 0:31:34.320,0:31:36.159 become one of the most recognized 0:31:36.159,0:31:37.840 thought leaders in the space, the fact 0:31:37.840,0:31:38.960 that you're seven years running the 0:31:38.960,0:31:41.360 number one ranked professor at 0:31:41.360,0:31:43.600 Wharton, I mean it's, the results 0:31:43.600,0:31:45.600 speak for themselves. And so the way I 0:31:45.600,0:31:48.080 think about it in my own life is I have 0:31:48.080,0:31:49.919 so mentally conditioned myself to get a 0:31:49.919,0:31:52.320 dopamine rush from somebody pointing out 0:31:52.320,0:31:55.120 a flaw because I'm thinking you have no 0:31:55.120,0:31:56.640 idea. My- 0:31:56.640,0:31:58.240 Adam I have the chills because I know 0:31:58.240,0:32:00.720 how true what I'm about to say is. I'm 0:32:00.720,0:32:01.760 willing to 0:32:01.760,0:32:03.919 actually take the pain of that and then 0:32:03.919,0:32:06.880 go if I can improve this I'll now be a 0:32:06.880,0:32:08.799 step farther ahead and on a long enough 0:32:08.799,0:32:10.399 timeline I can win at anything because 0:32:10.399,0:32:11.919 I'm willing to do that constant 0:32:11.919,0:32:13.519 iteration. So 0:32:13.519,0:32:14.880 there are definitely things that I do in 0:32:14.880,0:32:16.880 my life where for sort of brief periods 0:32:16.880,0:32:18.080 of time I'm not thinking about getting 0:32:18.080,0:32:19.840 better, but honestly man they're 0:32:19.840,0:32:22.720 really few and far between and I have, 0:32:22.720,0:32:24.240 I have this thing in my life where it is, 0:32:24.240,0:32:25.760 for 15 years because I was trying to 0:32:25.760,0:32:27.120 build a business so I could build a film 0:32:27.120,0:32:28.880 studio, long story, 0:32:28.880,0:32:30.720 I didn't watch movies because it 0:32:30.720,0:32:32.240 wasn't the skill that I needed at that 0:32:32.240,0:32:33.679 moment. And then I found that that 0:32:33.679,0:32:35.279 carried over even when I was building 0:32:35.279,0:32:37.360 the studio, I wasn't watching movies 0:32:37.360,0:32:38.880 anymore because I'd gotten into such a 0:32:38.880,0:32:39.760 habit 0:32:39.760,0:32:41.279 and I found that they didn't make me 0:32:41.279,0:32:43.600 feel like I was getting better and so I 0:32:43.600,0:32:45.120 couldn't do anything that didn't make me 0:32:45.120,0:32:46.159 feel like I was getting better because 0:32:46.159,0:32:47.679 the conditioning I'd put under myself to 0:32:47.679,0:32:50.000 have this huge dopamine reaction, so I 0:32:50.000,0:32:51.840 had to flip a switch and say I'm going 0:32:51.840,0:32:53.919 to now start deconstructing this stuff 0:32:53.919,0:32:55.360 and figuring out why it's good, why it 0:32:55.360,0:32:57.360 works, and now dude, I love watching 0:32:57.360,0:32:59.440 movies more than I've ever loved it in 0:32:59.440,0:33:01.600 my life because before it was passive 0:33:01.600,0:33:04.399 and now it's very proactive, it 0:33:04.399,0:33:06.640 feels far more creative and it feels 0:33:06.640,0:33:08.320 like I'm getting stronger which is 0:33:08.320,0:33:09.679 my obsession. 0:33:09.679,0:33:12.240 Adam Grant: Yeah. So two things on that. One is I 0:33:12.240,0:33:13.919 think you just laid out beautifully 0:33:13.919,0:33:15.440 Robert Eisenberger's theory of learned 0:33:15.440,0:33:17.840 industriousness which is the idea that 0:33:17.840,0:33:19.919 if you look at kids who grow up to be 0:33:19.919,0:33:22.320 extremely gritty and hardworking, 0:33:22.320,0:33:23.760 one of the things that happens to 0:33:23.760,0:33:25.760 them very early on is they get praised 0:33:25.760,0:33:27.760 for effort over and over again or 0:33:27.760,0:33:29.760 rewarded for effort over and over again 0:33:29.760,0:33:31.519 and then the feeling of hard work itself 0:33:31.519,0:33:33.600 takes on secondary reward properties, and 0:33:33.600,0:33:35.360 so it's like oh this hurts, but it also 0:33:35.360,0:33:37.279 feels good and I want to keep doing it 0:33:37.279,0:33:38.559 because I've gotten rewarded for it in 0:33:38.559,0:33:40.320 the past. And it sounds like you've 0:33:40.320,0:33:42.960 taken constructive criticism 0:33:42.960,0:33:45.200 as one of those reward keys that 0:33:45.200,0:33:47.120 really motivates you to keep getting 0:33:47.120,0:33:48.000 better. 0:33:48.000,0:33:49.279 The other thing that I thought was 0:33:49.279,0:33:50.399 really interesting about what you just 0:33:50.399,0:33:52.240 said is I thought you were 0:33:52.240,0:33:53.440 actually going to go in a cognitive 0:33:53.440,0:33:55.440 entrenchment direction on this when 0:33:55.440,0:33:57.120 you said you didn't watch movies for a 0:33:57.120,0:33:59.120 long period. It reminded me of a Simpsons 0:33:59.120,0:34:00.720 writer that I interviewed once, 0:34:00.720,0:34:02.880 George Meyer, who when he was writing for 0:34:02.880,0:34:04.880 the Simpsons, he refused to watch 0:34:04.880,0:34:07.760 Seinfeld because he was afraid that he'd 0:34:07.760,0:34:10.399 fall into this clept amnesia trap and 0:34:10.399,0:34:12.639 accidentally misremember one of their 0:34:12.639,0:34:15.280 jokes as his and he just, he didn't want 0:34:15.280,0:34:16.800 to take that risk. 0:34:16.800,0:34:18.800 And I always feel like this is a 0:34:18.800,0:34:20.399 tightrope walk because 0:34:20.399,0:34:21.679 when you're trying to innovate in 0:34:21.679,0:34:23.520 an industry you can't be completely 0:34:23.520,0:34:25.760 clueless about what everybody else is 0:34:25.760,0:34:27.440 doing otherwise you might miss something 0:34:27.440,0:34:28.879 really important, 0:34:28.879,0:34:31.440 and yes Blockbuster, Sears, Blackberry, I'm 0:34:31.440,0:34:33.520 talking to you, Kodak. 0:34:33.520,0:34:34.480 But 0:34:34.480,0:34:36.239 on the other hand, if you're too 0:34:36.239,0:34:37.839 obsessed with what your competitors are 0:34:37.839,0:34:40.320 up to, then you get entrenched and 0:34:40.320,0:34:42.800 it's harder to see with fresh eyes. Do 0:34:42.800,0:34:44.800 you have thoughts on how to stay on that 0:34:44.800,0:34:46.879 tightrope and not fall off either side? 0:34:46.879,0:34:48.800 Tom Bilyeu: Yeah so, I would say this is where 0:34:48.800,0:34:50.320 self-awareness is going to be really, 0:34:50.320,0:34:51.440 really important. I think there are 0:34:51.440,0:34:53.280 people that, 0:34:53.280,0:34:55.520 they maybe exist better in a vacuum 0:34:55.520,0:34:58.880 or they have such strong intuition about 0:34:58.880,0:35:01.359 something, and I believe exclusively in 0:35:01.359,0:35:02.640 informed tuition, I don't think you're 0:35:02.640,0:35:04.400 born with intuition. I think that it's 0:35:04.400,0:35:06.240 developed just through your activities 0:35:06.240,0:35:08.880 and you give a great example on this 0:35:08.880,0:35:11.760 with Steve Jobs and how he had informed 0:35:11.760,0:35:13.599 intuition around technology but not 0:35:13.599,0:35:14.960 around transportation, and so what he 0:35:14.960,0:35:16.960 does in Apple is life altering and 0:35:16.960,0:35:20.079 his investment in Segway was a waste. So 0:35:20.079,0:35:22.240 that I think is very, very real, but I 0:35:22.240,0:35:23.920 think that like anything it's a spectrum 0:35:23.920,0:35:25.359 and so there are some people maybe that 0:35:25.359,0:35:27.040 intuition is developed more intensely or 0:35:27.040,0:35:28.800 it's developed more quickly, 0:35:28.800,0:35:31.119 invisibly, whatever the case may be, and 0:35:31.119,0:35:32.640 then there are people who I'll call 0:35:32.640,0:35:35.359 synthesizers, so and that's me. And if you 0:35:35.359,0:35:37.040 put me on a desert island, what I would 0:35:37.040,0:35:39.440 come up with would probably not be very 0:35:39.440,0:35:41.599 interesting, but if you put me in an 0:35:41.599,0:35:43.599 information rich environment I will make 0:35:43.599,0:35:44.960 connections that are unlike the 0:35:44.960,0:35:47.119 connections anybody else will make. And I 0:35:47.119,0:35:49.680 have cultivated a fearlessness over 0:35:49.680,0:35:52.560 making unique connections, and so I had 0:35:52.560,0:35:55.040 to embrace that I am a synthesizer and 0:35:55.040,0:35:57.760 that for me, to take in all this data, to 0:35:57.760,0:36:01.040 read broadly like people that I think 0:36:01.040,0:36:02.640 that confirm what I believe and people 0:36:02.640,0:36:05.520 that violently oppose what I believe and 0:36:05.520,0:36:07.599 all of that ends up coming together in a 0:36:07.599,0:36:10.240 unique way in my own mind. And so for a 0:36:10.240,0:36:11.680 long time I was paralyzed because I felt 0:36:11.680,0:36:13.280 like I'm never going to think a unique 0:36:13.280,0:36:15.440 thought and that was really discouraging 0:36:15.440,0:36:17.119 to me and if you've seen A Beautiful 0:36:17.119,0:36:19.200 Mind, that was at least, as portrayed in 0:36:19.200,0:36:21.680 the movie, is what he struggled with was 0:36:21.680,0:36:22.800 you know, I'm never going to have an 0:36:22.800,0:36:25.280 original thought and it plagues him and 0:36:25.280,0:36:27.280 ends up being a driver for him and he 0:36:27.280,0:36:28.800 ends up obviously having a very original 0:36:28.800,0:36:30.800 thought and ends up really changing our 0:36:30.800,0:36:32.640 understanding of economics, 0:36:32.640,0:36:35.200 but for me what I found was I'm a 0:36:35.200,0:36:37.920 process thinker so I need to, I'm not, I 0:36:37.920,0:36:39.280 don't sit in a vacuum and have these 0:36:39.280,0:36:42.000 amazing breakthroughs, I suffer and then 0:36:42.000,0:36:44.240 have a breakthrough based on things that 0:36:44.240,0:36:46.800 I've read that finally collide and I put 0:36:46.800,0:36:48.800 them in a new context with a collision 0:36:48.800,0:36:50.240 that maybe other people would make 0:36:50.240,0:36:51.520 filtered through a value system that 0:36:51.520,0:36:53.440 other people don't have, and now I know 0:36:53.440,0:36:56.079 how to move through in the world because 0:36:56.079,0:36:58.720 I'm trying to satisfy my own emotional 0:36:58.720,0:36:59.599 needs 0:36:59.599,0:37:01.920 and I'm a total slave to the physics of 0:37:01.920,0:37:03.920 the world, so what actually moves me 0:37:03.920,0:37:06.400 towards my goals. So you put all that 0:37:06.400,0:37:09.040 together and I'm sort of unabashed 0:37:09.040,0:37:11.440 about like I need to take in all this 0:37:11.440,0:37:13.040 data, I'm not worried about klepto 0:37:13.040,0:37:15.359 amnesia, I'm happy to celebrate and 0:37:15.359,0:37:17.359 champion other people, I 0:37:17.359,0:37:19.520 I don't have those fears because I 0:37:19.520,0:37:20.800 didn't need it to be my idea in the 0:37:20.800,0:37:22.720 first place, so even when I think about 0:37:22.720,0:37:24.640 writing like I, when he's a writer 0:37:24.640,0:37:26.000 and he wants to say something original, 0:37:26.000,0:37:27.520 he wants to be his own jokes, I 0:37:27.520,0:37:29.839 understand all of that for sure. 0:37:29.839,0:37:32.880 My thing as a writer is I'm gonna 0:37:32.880,0:37:34.560 tell, like if I were to try to do 0:37:34.560,0:37:37.040 Seinfeld, like literally, I'm going to 0:37:37.040,0:37:38.400 make Seinfeld, I'm going to do this, just 0:37:38.400,0:37:39.680 Seinfeld, I'm going to try to copy 0:37:39.680,0:37:41.760 Seinfeld as hard as I can. As long as I 0:37:41.760,0:37:44.320 trust my own intuition and I divert when 0:37:44.320,0:37:46.560 I feel something is even funnier, I'm 0:37:46.560,0:37:48.000 trying to make it better, it will just 0:37:48.000,0:37:51.760 end up being so different that 0:37:51.760,0:37:53.760 that gives me sort of that armor around 0:37:53.760,0:37:56.000 not really worried about this 0:37:56.000,0:37:57.280 and 0:37:57.280,0:37:59.040 I would never intentionally go down that 0:37:59.040,0:38:00.720 path of trying to mimic it, so then once 0:38:00.720,0:38:01.440 you 0:38:01.440,0:38:03.200 put in I'm really trying to take this 0:38:03.200,0:38:06.240 somewhere new and I'm trusting my own 0:38:06.240,0:38:08.560 unique quirks and I'm fearless about 0:38:08.560,0:38:10.800 chasing them, you get something that's 0:38:10.800,0:38:11.920 original. 0:38:11.920,0:38:13.520 Adam Grant: Do you always trust your intuition 0:38:13.520,0:38:14.880 though because when you were describing 0:38:14.880,0:38:17.119 your hypothesis testing approach before, 0:38:17.119,0:38:18.720 it sounds like, to me, you're not 0:38:18.720,0:38:21.280 following your gut, you're testing it. 0:38:21.280,0:38:24.800 Tom Bilyeu: So I, it's funny. I wouldn't, if I just 0:38:24.800,0:38:27.359 gave the impression that I trust my 0:38:27.359,0:38:29.359 instincts, the answer is no. So what I'm 0:38:29.359,0:38:30.880 saying is when I'm writing something and 0:38:30.880,0:38:32.320 i have something that bends me in a 0:38:32.320,0:38:34.480 weird direction, I'm going to follow that, 0:38:34.480,0:38:35.839 but the only thing I care about is how 0:38:35.839,0:38:38.079 do people actually respond. So what I[br]Adam Grant: Right. 0:38:38.079,0:38:39.839 Tom Bilyeu: used to tell my students is, because I 0:38:39.839,0:38:41.599 used to teach filmmaking. I said 0:38:41.599,0:38:43.839 you have a choice before you, you can 0:38:43.839,0:38:45.359 be here to masturbate or you can be here 0:38:45.359,0:38:46.720 to make love. And if you want to 0:38:46.720,0:38:48.160 masturbate go make some weird art house 0:38:48.160,0:38:49.440 film that nobody understands and that's 0:38:49.440,0:38:50.720 absolutely fine, like you're trying to 0:38:50.720,0:38:53.200 please yourself, respect. But if you're 0:38:53.200,0:38:54.560 here to make love, you have to think 0:38:54.560,0:38:56.560 about your partner, and your partner is 0:38:56.560,0:38:57.920 the audience. And you have to understand 0:38:57.920,0:39:00.720 how the things you do impact them and so 0:39:00.720,0:39:03.280 your obsession has to be not what you 0:39:03.280,0:39:04.960 intend to communicate, but what is 0:39:04.960,0:39:07.280 actually understood, and so if you don't 0:39:07.280,0:39:08.400 understand that, now you're in real 0:39:08.400,0:39:10.720 trouble. So I'm not trying to exist in a 0:39:10.720,0:39:11.920 vacuum, 0:39:11.920,0:39:15.760 I'm trying to say my hypothesis is 0:39:15.760,0:39:17.760 that my unique way of interpreting this 0:39:17.760,0:39:19.280 will actually have a bigger response 0:39:19.280,0:39:20.880 than the other thing and I'm fearless 0:39:20.880,0:39:22.720 enough to try it. Now if I get feedback 0:39:22.720,0:39:24.720 that it didn't work, then I'm going to 0:39:24.720,0:39:27.680 adjust a hundred percent. I'm just never 0:39:27.680,0:39:29.599 afraid if I really feel that something 0:39:29.599,0:39:31.520 is the right way, I'm gonna do it. And if 0:39:31.520,0:39:33.040 I'm unsure, I'll admit that I'm unsure 0:39:33.040,0:39:34.720 and I'll try to get feedback from people 0:39:34.720,0:39:36.400 to try to orient myself. 0:39:36.400,0:39:38.640 Adam Grant: That's such a helpful edit because as a 0:39:38.640,0:39:40.560 social scientist, when people say 0:39:40.560,0:39:42.480 you know, trust your intuition or follow 0:39:42.480,0:39:44.240 your gut, 0:39:44.240,0:39:46.560 I generally don't trust things that I 0:39:46.560,0:39:49.040 don't know where they came from [Laughs]. And I 0:39:49.040,0:39:50.960 want to know why you're so confident 0:39:50.960,0:39:52.720 in your intuition. Well let's actually 0:39:52.720,0:39:54.560 talk about what intuition is. It's just 0:39:54.560,0:39:56.400 subconscious pattern recognition, 0:39:56.400,0:39:58.160 right? You've detected some kind 0:39:58.160,0:39:59.839 of connection that you're not fully able 0:39:59.839,0:40:01.839 to articulate and don't you want to find 0:40:01.839,0:40:03.440 out what that is, right? Make the 0:40:03.440,0:40:05.760 pattern conscious, so then you can test 0:40:05.760,0:40:07.200 whether the pattern that you're seeing 0:40:07.200,0:40:09.680 now is actually relevant to the choice 0:40:09.680,0:40:12.000 that you're about to make. You know, 0:40:12.000,0:40:14.079 Steve Jobs with the Segway example is 0:40:14.079,0:40:16.000 such a fun one for me because 0:40:16.000,0:40:18.560 he spent all those years in you know, in 0:40:18.560,0:40:20.720 the software worlds, building up his 0:40:20.720,0:40:23.119 intuition so that he could very quickly 0:40:23.119,0:40:25.440 know whether design made sense or not. He 0:40:25.440,0:40:27.760 didn't have the subconscious pattern 0:40:27.760,0:40:29.440 recognition calibrated for 0:40:29.440,0:40:31.599 transportation and so you know, he 0:40:31.599,0:40:33.359 quickly got bowled over just by how 0:40:33.359,0:40:35.280 brilliant the technology was 0:40:35.280,0:40:36.640 and seemed to miss some of the user 0:40:36.640,0:40:38.240 applications of it and how difficult it 0:40:38.240,0:40:41.119 would be to write a segway down sidewalks. 0:40:41.119,0:40:42.640 And I think a lot of people do this, 0:40:42.640,0:40:44.000 right? They build up their intuition in 0:40:44.000,0:40:45.839 one domain and then they just, they 0:40:45.839,0:40:47.839 follow it blindly in another domain not 0:40:47.839,0:40:49.520 realizing that the patterns that held in 0:40:49.520,0:40:52.000 one world don't apply to the next one. 0:40:52.000,0:40:53.760 Tom Bilyeu: Yeah, no question. 0:40:53.760,0:40:56.400 Dude I have thoroughly, thoroughly, 0:40:56.400,0:40:58.319 thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. 0:40:58.319,0:40:59.760 I've really enjoyed your works they are[br]Adam Grant: Same. 0:40:59.760,0:41:02.240 Tom Bilyeu: incredible. I highly encourage people 0:41:02.240,0:41:04.720 to get after it. And man in this time 0:41:04.720,0:41:06.480 where i think that 0:41:06.480,0:41:08.319 new leaders coming to the surface is 0:41:08.319,0:41:09.680 going to be so critical for us 0:41:09.680,0:41:11.599 navigating our way to 0:41:11.599,0:41:14.079 a positive beautiful end, I'm eternally 0:41:14.079,0:41:15.599 grateful for everything that you write 0:41:15.599,0:41:16.880 on the subject and helping people 0:41:16.880,0:41:19.839 develop self-awareness and the skills um 0:41:19.839,0:41:22.480 that they need to lead well amongst 0:41:22.480,0:41:24.319 all the other amazing topics that you've 0:41:24.319,0:41:26.400 covered, so dude thank you for the way 0:41:26.400,0:41:27.599 that you walk through the world. Where 0:41:27.599,0:41:29.839 can people find out more about you? 0:41:29.839,0:41:32.400 Well first of all Tom, thank you. I've 0:41:32.400,0:41:34.800 heard many, many rave reviews of your 0:41:34.800,0:41:37.520 passion for self-improvement and I 0:41:37.520,0:41:39.520 think I underestimated just how curious 0:41:39.520,0:41:41.440 you were even, even having heard that 0:41:41.440,0:41:43.839 from lots of mutual friends so it's 0:41:43.839,0:41:45.520 really cool to see it in action and soak 0:41:45.520,0:41:47.040 it up a little bit. 0:41:47.040,0:41:50.319 On your question i would say i guess 0:41:50.319,0:41:52.800 adamgrant.net is the place to start. 0:41:52.800,0:41:55.440 I host a TED podcast called Work Life 0:41:55.440,0:41:56.800 where I try to figure out how we can 0:41:56.800,0:41:58.800 make work suck a little bit less and I 0:41:58.800,0:42:01.359 do a monthly newsletter called Granted 0:42:01.359,0:42:02.880 where I cover some of my favorite new 0:42:02.880,0:42:05.200 insights about work in psychology and 0:42:05.200,0:42:06.800 would love to see people in either those 0:42:06.800,0:42:08.960 places or hear them or have them hear me 0:42:08.960,0:42:10.560 if they're interested. 0:42:10.560,0:42:12.720 I love it man. All right everybody if you 0:42:12.720,0:42:14.319 haven't already dived into his world you 0:42:14.319,0:42:16.800 will be richly rewarded and speaking of 0:42:16.800,0:42:18.079 rich rewards if you haven't already 0:42:18.079,0:42:19.839 subscribed be sure to do so and until 0:42:19.839,0:42:21.920 next time my friends be legendary, take 0:42:21.920,0:42:22.960 care. 0:42:22.960,0:42:24.640 The great irony is the way you build 0:42:24.640,0:42:26.079 great companies 0:42:26.079,0:42:28.160 is with an infinite mindset. The way you 0:42:28.160,0:42:31.200 build great companies is by prioritizing 0:42:31.200,0:42:33.280 people before profit. The way you build 0:42:33.280,0:42:35.839 great companies is will before resources, 0:42:35.839,0:42:37.359 both things important but there has to 0:42:37.359,0:42:41.240 be this general leaning.