Germany’s pro-Israel left – what the f*ck are you doing?

[Johannes] Alright,
I think we're live.

This is another MERA25 live
stream tonight in English.

And we are talking about
a very interesting topic.

My name is Johannes Fehr.

I'm from the board of MERA25,
our German Left party,

part of DiEM25, our
international movement.

And we regularly on our
YouTube channel talk

about German politics,
normally in German.

Tonight in our English episode

to take a bit of an inside
and outside look on the

interesting topic of the
Germany's so-called Left

that is pro-Israel and we'll
dive into questions like:

What the fuck are you doing there
and what the fuck is this?

And we will ask why that
happens that a part

of the so-called Left

positions themselves like this.

And I'm really, really happy
to have two guests tonight,

which is Yuval Gail Cohen from
the Jewish-Israeli descent in Leipzig,

and Udi Raas from

the Jewish Voice for Just
Peace in the Middle East.

Really happy to discuss this
with both of you tonight.

And I would ask you to also
introduce yourself very

shortly to the audience.

And the audience, you
out there, if you have

any questions during the episode,

please ask us so we can

dive into all the things that
you also want to share.

Also with us, if you have
any comments, please

put them in the chat
so we can react.

Welcome, Udi.

[Udi] Thank you, Johannes.

Well, you know, according,
with relation to the

general situation, I'm
doing as well as things

can be at the moment.

I'm really excited to talk
with you and with Yuval today

and I'm grateful that you hold
the space in this situation,

in a living reality,
where democratic

spheres are shrinking.

So it's so precious that we
got the opportunity to connect

and to discuss things publicly
within the belly of the

beast here in Germany.

[JOhannes] Thank you Udi,
and also welcome Yuval.

You're in Leipzig, correct?

[Yuval] I am.

I am in Leipzig at the
moment, in my home also.

Very much sharing Udi's
feelings, especially

in the past two weeks.

Just kind of, you're
doing as much, as well

as you can, kind of.

Yeah, excited to be here,
excited to talk about

this phenomenon and it's
called Antideutsch.

[Johannes] Maybe you can,
for the start,

I think it would be
good for especially

those that maybe watch from
the international level

and have a lot of questions
regarding the title,

if you could share a bit

your personal stories,
both of you, how you arrived

here and how you actually
encountered this so-called

part of the Left in Germany
that is surprisingly

pro-Israel.

Yuval, you want to go on.

[Yuval] Yeah, I can go.

I can go first.

Well, I have.

I'm going to start
by saying that I am.

I'm an anti-Zionist Israeli
Jew, co-founded YID,

Jewish Israelis Descent,
(Jüdisch-israelischer Dissens)

because we reasised that

meeting this concept of
Antideutsch and find it very

weird, regardless whether
you're on the spectrum of

being radically anti-Zionist
or just coming out of

just being a random Televivian that
is moving to Germany,

this is something that is a
collective experience

of like, what the fuck?

And I've been an activist
most of my life,

as a teenager, growing up.

I didn't go to the military,
refused to go to the military.

So it's important to me
to bring this kind of like

this background.

Moving to Germany five years
ago, moving to Leipzig,

I have to fight the fight here as well,
and surprisingly realizing

that the people who
were supposed to kind

of be my allies are not.

And we, that, yeah, we
actually don't share

the same values of equality
and human rights for all,

and even just being anti-war
in this moment, right?

My first interaction
with Antideutsch was

actually not in Leipzig.

It was before I even moved
to Leipzig and realized

what a hive I've moved into.

I took part in the
Hambacher forest.

There's a very successful
struggle against

deforestation of the forest.

And I remember sitting with
this one person that I met

there and we've been talking
and sharing our backgrounds,

where we come from.

And, of course, I'm me, so
I tell them my story and my

view, and of course,
as a Leftist activist,

back then, also within Israeli society,
I am not the same person

that I was five years ago,
but with the words that

I had, even back then

with the words that I had,
talking about the occupation,

talking about the injustices that
exist where I come from,

he looked at me after and
he said: You know, if you

say that too loud, people
will call you antisemitic.

And that was the first time
that I'm like, wait, what?

It's, first of all,
I thought it was...

Well, it is a real
global agreement.

Palestine is eventually
a global agreement of a

struggle that is right, a
struggle that is needed.

An old struggle, it didn't
start yesterday, right?

It did not start on
the 7th of October.

Obviously this was a
conversation topic before,

and this was something that
people fought for before.

But that was just this welcome to
the German sphere of

talking about things.

So that was my kind of
first interaction of like:

oh, maybe the people who fight
my fight are actually not...

They either don't get it, or
they don't want to get it.

And what started as feeling
just like quite discomfort,

Yeah, and moving to Leipzig
here, really experiencing,

not only witnessing the power
that Antideutsch have culturally

in the city, and how it's
systematically being used

to silence Palestinians, or
even more,

I think in the last few years,

Leipzig has been very much
more vocal about Palestine,

thanks to Handela, the Palestinian
group here,

and thanks to people who actually
do the work

and bring it to the front.

But before that, people
ignored the fact that they

had Palestinians in their town,

that we live among Palestinian refugees.

It's just been the natural path

of standing with
Palestinians wherever they are

because obviously
it's not just moving

out of Israel, of 48.

It's not only to not actively
participate in the occupation,

but yeah, it's seeing
the positions of power

here in the system around me

and also working against
them or with them in a way.

So, what emerged,
what made us start in Giyid,

because we, unlike
Yiddish Ishtima,

they are doing an amazing,
amazing job.

We are a group of Israelis
that we, for the record,

each and every one of us have
very complicated relationship

with this term also.

And we're in a constant
debate with ourselves on this

name for that as identity.

But we are all a group
of Israelis that were

activists against the
occupation, apartheid,

and now of course,
against the genocide.

We all come from that place of
being anti-Zionist activists,

coming to Germany and
realizing that we're not

only silenced back where
we come from,

but we are silenced here.

And with the layer of
weaponizing anti-Semitism,

suddenly we're not only
Israelis, we're Israelis,

we're Jewish because we
see other people

talking on our behalf

as if they don't want to
acknowledge at all the

reality on the ground.

And so, yeah, we put it
to ourselves as a promise

to be in solidarity with
Palestinians, bringing what

it's like to be a radical
Left within Israeli society.

What it's really like in the
so-called only democracy in

the Middle East that they
claim that they support,

we bring our experiences that
we actually come from a place

that is inherently fascist
and inherently racist,

and what it means to
actually stand against it

and fight it.

And I'm gonna close my segment now,
and give it to Udi.

[Johannes] Yuval, thank you,
Over to you, Udi.

[Udi] Thank you, Johannes.

It's so interesting to
listen to Yuval, because the

experiences that Yuval shares,
and Yuval brings in voices of

other self-identifying Jews
into this conversation,

resonate also with
my own experience.

Living as a Jewish
self-identifying Jew

in Germany means something very
specific, and it's different

in it's essence than the experience of
living as a self-identifying

Jew in the context of
Palestine, on the land of

Palestine governed by the
so-called state of Israel.

In the context of Palestine,
Jewish self-identification

means belonging to the
hegemonic, the ruling race,

let's say, or a social group.

while in the context of
Germany, it means belonging to

a subcategory of whiteness in
best case and in the same time

that you are being included
your experience as a

self-identifying Jew is
completely neglected by

those who wish to make
policy for you, so to say.

But there is something that
is quite overlapping in the

fact that you find within
the so-called Left here in

Germany, individuals who
nevertheless 17 months into an

ongoing genocide still support
the genocidal state of Israel.

And you will find also
the same phenomenon in the

context of Palestine, where
a self-identifying Jew would

still wave the Israeli flag
and go on the street

calling for the replacement of
war criminal Netanyahu

and with other war
criminals into power.

So, you know, the governing
discourse does not concern

Palestinians in either cases.

And it also does not concern
really the question of what

does it mean to be Jew in a
post-World War II world.

Because, if we think about the
legacies that we inherited from our

sisters, brothers, siblings
who were murdered during the

Second World War, we would
have said that legacies

like the German Basic Law,
like democracy,

like human rights, like international
law, we have to acknowledge

that all those legacies were
written among others,

also with the blood of more
than 6 million European

and North African Jews.

And it's quite telling that
those, specifically here

in Germany, who consider
themselves Left,

are so willing to give up all those
legacies, making it clear that

their policymaking is really
not informed by the atrocities

their parents or grandparents
or great-grandparents

have committed.

They inform their policies,
or what informs their policies

are their own supremacists'
desire or their own wish

to once again, feel superior
in relation to others.

And what allows them to do so
is the ideology of Zionism.

We can delve more into this
topic perhaps as we go during

the conversation,
but you asked specifically

about experiences that I had with

anti-Germans, let's say.

And, you know, if we
believe German politicians,

then we should assume that
Neukölln should be a no-go

area for Jews, for example.

I feel that Neukölln, for me,
Berlin is one of the safest

places at the moment,
precisely as a member

of a marginalized group,
but there are some places in

Neukölln that are indeed no-go
areas for Jews,

and one of them is the
so-called Beisel.

Beisel is a bar
of anti-Germans.

I will give you
just one example:

In 2023, in September 2023,
one month before the beginning

of the genocide, together with
other self-identifying Jews,

as they spoke about themselves
publicly in the room,

we attended an event that called
itself Mitos Israel 1948.

In this event, the speakers
insisted that the Nakba

is nothing else but a collection
of XXX Mitos

and they basically

laid open the interpretation
of why the Nakba should

be considered as a myth at
best or ignored altogether.

And I can recall as one of the
persons who self-identified

as Jew stood up in protest
again against this framing

of the Nakba as a myth and
expressed a concern that

this is not something that
one should tolerate,

let alone give room for this.

He was then pushed out with
violence from the room

and at least one individual who
was present in the room was

shouting at this person,
XXX do arm judah,

you poor Jew.

So this is really the
atmosphere that is

characteristic to XXXX

This person that was taken out,
left the room with a fractured rib

and was then, if I
remember correctly,

also received Strafanzeige.

What is Strafanzeige
in English?

He was charged with a fine.

So this is the experience
of self-identifying

Jews in specific places.

In Neukölln-Weiser is,
of course, only one minor

example, let's say, but quite
telling, quite symptomatic

to how this discourse
in general works.

On the one hand those places
claim to be places

where Jews should
feel most comfortable,

but rarely are Jews
actually asked: what are

our needs, what we wish for
ourselves, how we perceive

the world in general.

This discourse is designed for
anti-Antisemites, let's say,

to feel good about themselves
without the necessity

to actually engage with
living experiences of

self-identifying Jews.

[Johannes] Thank you.

Thank you Udi also for sharing.

I think to the ones listening
as someone that is actually

German and grew up in the
German countryside, maybe I

can also share quickly that
one of the problems,

of course, here is that we learn
a lot about the Holocaust

in school, and we should.

It's something really important
for us to reflect on.

But unfortunately, The Nakba is
for example a term that

I only learned about
when I was

long out of school,
what that event actually was.

And the same actually also,
we learn very very little about

the other genocides that
Germany perpetrated in the

past and I think those are all
telling signs for a lack of

understanding of the wider
history and the wider lessons

to be learned from history and from
all the atrocities form the past.

I would propose that also you
mentioned already the terms

Antideutsch and anti-Germans.

I think it's a bit confusing
for a lot of people,

although that is kind of
like the historic term on

how that group is called.

So I would propose that we
call them the XXX ultra-Germans.

I think it's much more telling
because there's nowadays

so much online, actually
also funny coincidence,

the first comment in this chat
today was Antifa means

solidarity with Israel.

So that's exactly one of those
people that waved the Antifa

flag together with the Israel
flag in German demonstrations

and of course they couldn't
be more wrong and that is not

what I think and what many
think is Antifa I think.

Today of course they
are very much in line with

what the German
state is actually doing,

and a big part of the German
society, unfortunately,

also is supporting.

Maybe, yeah, you can also
share a bit on how you see

that connection, I think,
because it's really

important between the
state and that so-called

self-proclaimed Left.

That would be, I think, interesting
to dive in a bit more.

Youva?

[Youva] Yeah, I think it's
exactly what you said.

It's true that it's considered
anti-Germans because actually

what we are saying, that
actually they're not

anti-German at all.

Actually when we see those
demonstrations of Gegen-Jeden

antisemitism, they're not
protesting against anything.

They're not really
protesting against anyone

or against any idea.

They're protesting
for the state.

Like Germany is already
supporting Israel

with billions, with billions

and yet you
still hear people

raising, with like, the whole
aesthetic the whole aesthetic

of being a radical thinker
calling for more weapons.

So it's, first this idea,
as I said, of like you

would think that Leftists
would be anti-war

as the base of even

I don't know,
being critically thinking

of our political situation,
whether it's global or local.

Like, would you be
in the 60s protesting for

the Vietnam War, like,
you haven't seen Hair?

But the second point
that I wanted to make,

especially with the Antifa,

because of my background,
I might be biased with

bringing experiences of
the so-called radical Lwft

which is 10 people.

I'm not pretending there
is any, you know,

but, the Antifa flag in Israel is
in support of Palestine.

So it just comes to show how
disconnected exactly what you

said before, of what
Udi said before

I'm not even engaging with
real experiences of people.

It's such deep level
of disconnection from the

people on the ground the
people that they're so-called...

Yes, but say that they
are in solidarity with...

They hold the Antifa flag
in one hand and the Israeli

flag in one hand while
my friend back in Israel

while holding the Antifa flag
is getting beaten up either

by cops or either by settlers.

So it's really amazing to
see the disconnection

just to show that.

Well I can go deeper
on that actually later.

That is a form of dehumanization

and anti-semitism basically,
that they don't see us as

humans, they don't really
see us as real people

with thoughts and etc.

So I just wanted to add
this couple of...

[Udi] Yeah you know, I want to.

Oh, sorry for interacting.

Yuval, I wanted to add
to what you said.

Also, it's interesting that in
the German case, specifically

in the case of Germany, when
we talk about the Jewish

population in Germany after
1945, after the end of the

Second World War,
the end of the Jewish Holocaust

and many other Holocausts that

took place during the
same time by Nazis.

We see that the Jewish population
was and remain really

a tiny, small social group
within the overall millions,

dozens of millions of population
of Germany in general.

So when we talk nowadays
about Jews in Germany,

we talk about a very optimistic
number of 250 ,000

self identifying Jews in Germany.

German politicians and policymakers
in Germany, and also it includes

ultra-Deutsche or
Antideutsche, Zionist Germans,

they have a challenge of
framing their or informing

themselves really in a climate
where Jews rarely exist.

So it would have taken from them
an active approach to do research,

basically, to reach out to those who
self-identify as Jews,

who move through this anti-Semitic
world as Jewish individuals

in order to inform their
decision-making process.

But it's perhaps not
quite surprising that

they choose not to do so.

The system has been
designed by Aryans for Aryans

and everybody who is not
Aryan, their experiences

remain marginalized within
this system of policymaking.

I'll give you
just one example.

Within the Bundestag,
for example, how many

self-identifying Jews are
sitting right now as we

speak in the Bundestag?

Do you have any idea?

[Johannes] To be honest, I haven't.

[Udi] So, the thing is that none
of them self-identify as Jew,

and this is the case not only
in the current legislation period

but also in the
former one under Olaf Scholz,

and the former one with
Anglea Merkel ruling before that.

So we see more than a decade
as anti-semitism becomes a

phenomenon that allegedly
concerns those in power

so deeply and policy making
around anti-semitism

is increasing actually
also while violating the

very basic German law.

It's quite telling the Jews
are not really part of this discussion

and whenever we do raise a voice,
whenever we speak up,

those who are in power will
point at us, call us anti-Semites,

self-hating Jews, and subject
us to boycott, divestment,

sanctions, state repression,
police brutality,

and so on and so on.

[Johannes] Thank you, yeah.

That is actually also
something that I didn't know

so thanks for sharing
some really telling facts

also in our stream.

I want to ask you one
question, but that someone

that is probably, I don't
know what the identity of the

person in the chat is,
his name is AntiAntiAnti

and he actually is
asking you Udi,

if you could wear a kippah in Neukölln,
since you have been

going around there.

So I wanted to forward
that question to you.

[Udi] Thank you, Johannes,
for the question.

Thank you for asking the
question that I think

perhaps also other people
ask themselves about how

I move around with a kippah.

I wear the kippah everywhere
I go, also in Neukölln.

The scary thing for me is to
work with this kippah right

there in Charlottenburg
and in places that are

marked as no-go areas
for Jews, basically.

[Johannes] Thank you
for clarifying that.

Okay, I think, Yuva, did
you want to add something?

Because I wanted to say
something about that.

You mentioned the education
system and what we are

learning, and I think this is
a massive, massive part of it.

I mean, we're going into
that before we even read the

history of the ultra-Deutsche,
but I think especially the

education system is a massive
part of it because they do teach a lot

about the Holocaust,
but they wouldn't teach.

about the system that allowed
the Holocaust to happen.

And what is resulting of that
is that fixation on one group

of victims, and then Ni Vider
is Yetz, is actually a dog whistle

to only specifically: Ni Vider for Juden,
only for Jews,

kind of forgetting the fact
that first of all,

throughout history and the
Holocaust, the survival of Jews

despite the Holocaust
and despite what is

happening, always happened
in solidarity with other

marginalized people.

Which the ultra-deutsch and

the political sphere and how
anti-Semitism is being taught

is not only lacking real facts
and real critical thinking

about a system, like a
societal system and political system

that allowed the Holocoust to happen

what happened is
this fixation of Jews,

of philo-semitism, as they
say, and the problem of

viewing anti-semitism as
something special

not as a form of racism,

actively fighting antisemitism
as a form of racism

which then unite the struggle
with other struggles

against other forms of racism.

It just aligns Jews more.

It just puts us in a box more.

And if there's one thing
that I always try to push

and to say to ultra-Deutsch
that actually, actually

as anti-Zionist Jews who either
experienced anti-Jewish racism

where we are here in Germany,

we know what it's like to
grow up with a narrative

that is being told to us
that we have to unlearn.

We know what it means
to come from

generational trauma and the
other way around, right.

I really believe that we
know and we understand how

ultra-Deutschism works.

We know them much more than
they know themselves

because of course, we are still
in this process, right?

It's always a process of
shedding the Zionism

and shedding the narratives that
has been taught to us

and been implied to us, especially
through the educational system

and everywhere we go,
teaching us what is solidarity,

what is unity and finding
out that actually it's

just for one people

and not for all people.

We know what it's like to
disagree with our grandpa

and that's the sad part of it,
that you would imagine that we

would find solidarity and we
would find allies based on

those processes like nobody
here in Germany those

ultra-Deutsch are born
with an Antifa flag

in their hand like they could
just as easily find themselves

growing up to be one of those
people walking in an

IfD demonstration, right?

So how come the work,
let's say, stops when

it comes to Palestine?

Where do you put your
comfort above justice

and the work that needs to
be done for justice?

And that's just my, yeah.

They teach us about
the Holocaust,

but they don't teach us about the
resistance to the Holocaust.

They don't teach us about
the different collaborations

that have done in the
name of resisting

human slaughter and the genocide.

Instead of having the
opportunity to really

actively resist, do what their
grandpa could not have done

they choose to stay in that lane,
in this false lane,

in a very harmful lane.

And what I wish is also for
people in general to take

from this episode and from our
conversation is that all of us

are always in process of
understanding our surrounding

and understanding ourselves
with our political surrounding

and where is our place.

And if we find ourselves
talking about antisemitism

but there's no Jews around,
then maybe we're not having

the right conversation.

And now we can move.

[Johannes] Those were almost
closing words already.

But it was a good summary,
that's what I wanted

to express with that.

[Yuva] I would like to go with this
intention of taking something

out of this conversation.

We're not just talking shit
about people.

We want them to actively
think about what we're saying.

So I invite them to put
their ego aside for a second

and then we can continue.

[Johannes] Yes, thank you.

I actually have never
experienced such an active

chat with just a few people
that seem to be identifying as

Antifa and pro-Israel, having
a very active discussion.

I just want to clarify one
thing, just because we are

speaking out against genocide

in one part of the world

does not mean that
we support

the regime in Iran or the
regime in Turkey, because

that's something that is
thrown around in the chat.

I just wanted to clarify that
without us, you know, diving

further into this, because
I don't think there's need.

And if there's anyone that
has interesting questions,

since we're going
into the second half

of our conversation, please
put them into the chat

and we will answer them.

[Udi] Johannes, just like shortly,
maybe it's a good opportunity

to ask the annti Ultra-Deutsch
that are with us in the chat.

Maybe for the second part
they could still invite their

other anti-German friends.

I think it's so essentially
important that they finally

get the opportunity to listen
to two self-identifying

Jews who live in
contemporary Germany.

[Johannes] Yeah, I think that's
a good invitation.

Also, a lot of comments help,
of course, the stream to

be spread, so thank you
also in that regard.

Yeah, and maybe we can talk
a bit on how that's, I think,

which is a big problem that
the German Left,

I think there's also, we need to
maybe talk about that part of

the German Left that is just
silent because there's also

that part that just don't

want to touch this complicated
topic and what it actually

means yeah for the German
Left being so isolated

in that regard from the
international Left, which has

a much more clear position
and which makes the

German Left very small.

And that is something that
needs to change,

because especially in this country,
with our history, we actually

need a very, very strong Left,
especially with the current

developments that we're
seeing all around us.

[Yuva] Can I actually correct
this one thing?

I have a thing with that especially
in our country, in every country

in every state there should be a
strong Left because it's not...

I refuse to believe that supporting

genocide is in somebody's DNA.

I really think that, yes,
in Germany

and with our German context, of course,
it's incredibly important for us

to be loud, but it's really
for every state,

it's really for every country,
because every country

and every state and every nation
has the potential to be,

taking into account geopolitics
and all this stuff.

I think everybody
has the potential to

be fascist, everybody.

Everybody also has the
potential to be anti-fascist.

Doing this exception of
Germany because it's in

every place, because Germany
is part of the world.

And that, well, we're going to
talk about it later,

but the part of the German Left versus
the global Left and how we

have those demonstrations
against the

international Left wrong.

And so I just wanted to
give into context this concept,

especially in Germany,
what do we mean by that?

That's all.

[Johannes] Yes, absolutely.

I think what I meant maybe
to put a bit of nuance to the

thought is that in a country
where fascism has been in

power for a very long time.

But of course, you're
absolutely right and

thank you for adding that.

How do one of the questions
that we actually prepared

for the conversation is:
How do we distinguish between

fighting anti-Semitism and
upholding Zionist ideology.

I think it's probably
something that you already

have answered in your
statements here and there,

but maybe we can
just give people some,

yeah, your opinion
and some guiding

on how to do this and
be in solidarity with

every marginalized
or suppressed group.

[Udi] Johannes, if that's okay
for you, and for you, Yuval,

I'm happy to at least offer
one possible answer to

this very urgent question.

I think perhaps it would
make more sense to answer this

question by considering what
is antisemitism, or even

more precisely, what is
antisemitism according

to those who are in power
here in Germany.

In 2017 the German government
adopted what we by now know

is an anti-semitic definition
of anti-semitism which was

introduced one year earlier in
2016 under the so-called IHRA

definition of anti-semitism.

IHRA stands for International
Holocaust Remembrance Alliance

and this is an
intergovernmental coalition

of 99% countries with predominantly

Christian population.

There is one exception in
this coalition, and this

is the so-called the Jewish
state, the state of Israel,

which is also part of this coalition.

So you have room for Christians
and one Jew in Germany,

they call this phenomenon diversity.

So in this very diverse room,
they all sit together in 2016

and introduce a definition
of antisemitism.

According to this definition,
antisemitism, I'm giving

here a citation from
the website of the IHRA.

You can look for it,
IHRA antisemitism.

It's written: 'Antisemitism is a
certain perception of Jews

which may be expressed
as hatred towards Jews.

Rhetorical and physical
manifestations of antisemitism

are directed toward Jewish or
non-Jewish individuals and or

their property toward Jewish
community institutions

and religious facilities.

If you feel confused, don't
feel surprised because also

those who framed or define
the definition of antisemitism

found it so confusing that
they found it necessary to

attach a list of 11 examples
of what this definition

could mean, what
antisemitism could mean.

But, you know, I just want
to draw your attention to the

very simple fact that if we
look already at the first

sentence of the definition of
antisemitism, which goes like:

Antisemitism, is a certain
perception of Jews

which may be expressed as
hatred towards Jews,

We already noticed that there is
something quite tricky in this

formulation, because may,
as we know, implies a

possibility, so the second
part of the sentence

already implies an example.

So if we leave this example
outside of the sentence,

we leave with the following
definition of antisemitism.

According to the IHRA,
antisemitism is a certain

perception of Jews.

If Yuval and myself
are sitting in front

of you and we tell you
that we self-identify as Jews

you have a certain
perception of Jews.

Is this anti-Semitic?

Let's leave this
question open for now.

Then we realize that we
really need to delve into the

specific context of each case.

I understand antisemitism
very much the same way as

Yuval defined it before.

Antisemitism is racism
towards Jews.

There was a moment
in history which

is still sustained under
Zionist knowledge production,

according to which Judaism
is a signifier of an

ethnic social group or
racial social group.

This is a phenomenon that
you see within Nazi knowledge

production and contemporary
Zionist knowledge production,

both in Palestine, within
the framework of

the State of Israel, in Germany,

in the US and many other
Zionist countries.

So we have a real problem
here with the definition of

antisemitism that has been
institutionalized by state

institutions here in Germany
that makes antisemitism

into a phenomenon that is
simply too complicated.

And they like to say, so they
would rather not even start

dealing with this.

The only institution that is
in charge of defining what

is antisemitism or not, is
the state of Israel from the

perspective of those who are
in power here in Germany.

Because if you look at
the examples also of what

antisemitism could mean
within the framework of the

IHRA, you will see that seven
out of the 11 examples are

directed directly to the state
of Israel as examples of what

antisemitism could mean.

Only 4 of those examples address
living experiences

of Jews as Jews.

So according to this IHRA
definition of antisemitism

in order to define or to decide
whether something could be

classified as antisemitic
falls into the hand of

the state of Israel.

And you see that all those
state institutions here that

are being designed allegedly
to protect Jewish life in

Germany very close connection
with Israeli Right extremist

policymakers and Israeli state
institutions, among others of

individuals who are committing
crimes against humanity

right now in Gaza.

So this is what I wanted to
say about this problematic

of how antisemitism has been
utilised, institutionalized

in policymaking in today's
Germany and how this

antisemitic definition
of antisemitism affects

the living realities also
of Jews here in Germany.

According to this definition,
everybody who speaks up for

democracy, for human rights
and international law must be

understood as an antisemite,
which to say in a rather ironic way.

I hope that everybody who
listens to this talk today

would be antisemitic but only

according to the IHRA
definition of antisemitism.

[Johannes] Thank you, Udi.

I hope that people
could follow that very

detailed explanation.

I think it's important to
dive into the details because

as you mentioned,
these definitions are used a lot

to justify repression
here in this state, especially

of course, against Arabs and
Palestinians, but also Jewish people

German people, lots of
people that work against the

support of the German state
for the genocide in Palestine.

There was someone asking
in the chat:

What do people mean by 'the
topic is complicated?'

Does someone
want to try and answer,

or had experience with that.

[Yuval] I can answer.

The topic is in the
topic of Palestine,

of Israel-Palestine,
right, or Anti-deutsch,

which is complicated.

[Johannes] The Israel-Palestine, yes.

Take a position.

[Yuval] Because I would argue that
the concept of Anti-deutsch

is more complicated and more layered
than Israel- Palestine.

The idea that it's complicated
is a manufactured idea.

If you really look at what is
happening, what has happened,

if you put some kind of
standard to your values of

displacing people and not
letting them go back to their home

can we agree this is
unacceptable no matter what?

Taking over lands,

erasing cultures, and in
the last 18 months as well,

literally killing more than
60 women on a daily basis on average

can we agree that
this is not very complicated,

that this is unacceptable
from the beginning,

no matter what excuse or
reason, will be brought.

So once you you recognize
that and you don't compromise,

it's really that simple.

Because a lot of the time,

it's very on purpose that
people will see it as very

complicated because,
as Jews, we come with

a lot of baggage.

We have a lot of baggage.

We see that baggage

literally
crushing not only us

but other people.

And the only reason it
feels complicated is

because we've been told
that it's complicated.

In reality, it's a
very textbook case of

settler colonialism.

It's very...

One-on-one generational
trauma being weaponized

and being abused by
a third bigger power.

It's really a text definition
of taking, of capitalizing

over somebody else's
suffering, I would even say,

because in the end of the
day, we say, it's a factory

of Zionism in Hebrew.

It's a Zionism factory, and
a factory means to benefit

financially from doing work,
the Zionist work, which is

taking over land, taking
over the demographic,

and no matter, no matter, no matter
what somebody else is going

through, can we agree that it
is not okay to project it

and to put it on somebody else,
and I'm very much purposely

talking with these kind of
wordings of almost talking

to a child because it's
really as simple as this.

No matter under what
circumstances, 750,000 people

should have not been expelled.

So, if we look from:
Remember, ah, this happened,

And it's not only if they
took this agreement or

not took this agreement
or this or that.

In the end of the day,
regardless also what

agreements are being
discussed, as we speak

right now, the settlers are going over,
doing another progrom

somewhere in the West Bank.

And the bombardment
of Gaza has resumed.

And so the use of:
it's so complicated,

is literally an excuse.

An excuse to not look
at reality as it is now.

Because can we agree that
killing people is wrong and

killing children is wrong?

That's what I mean
also by values and

principles of the Left.

Because based on my personal
experience, I found myself

in those different struggles,
where I was, the different

struggles of within Israeli
society, that just proves why

the concept of ethno-state, of
Jewish states, just don't work.

and would never work.

It comes from following
those values:

Oh yeah, stealing
somebody's home is wrong.

Demolishing somebody's
home is wrong.

Stealing sheep, killing
children is wrong.

And that leads me to
understand the reality

in which I'm living.

If we drop that it's
complicated and we just look

at the reality.

And also, it's
together with the sentence,

it's complicated, it comes,
it's like, it's complicated

on both sides, right?

It's the both sides that a
lot of the time comes with

it's complicated.

I think once we drop

the idea of both sides, and
if we actually then look

on both sides, then we
see that it's very simple.

Because you would not
put it on the same level.

That's, yeah.

[Udi] Yeah, Yuval, listening
to you and hearing this,

keeping in mind this,
it's not complicated.

sentence that we
hear around us.

Thank you, first of
all, for addressing

it so, so accurately.

I can offer maybe a way to
summarize it very briefly,

because when I listen to you,
I hear from you that what is

actually complicated is to
justify a Nakba, is to justify

ethnic cleansing, it's to
justify an apartheid regime,

it's to justify a genocide.

And what is not complicated,
on the other hand,

is the German Basic Law are the
legacies of human rights

and is international law.

All those legacies that, once
again, were written, among

others, also with the blood of
more than six million European

and North African Jews.

[Johannes] Thank you.

Thank you for summarizing
it again and putting

it to the point.

Thank you both for sharing
so much of your views.

As we are coming to the
end of the stream tonight,

do you have anything else
that you wanted to mention,

that you wanted to share?

Do you have a message maybe
also for the people that still

feel it's complicated,
that self-identify as Leftist

in Germany but are not
speaking out, I would be

interested to, yeah, for
you to share anything else

and anything else that
you, of course, want

to still leave with

the audience.

[Udi] I am happy to go first and you
know what crosses my mind is

this very powerful experiences
of going on the streets

here in Berlin but
also in other places in

Germany I've seen that.

We go on the street
year by year,

week by week, month by month.

Year by year, doing the bare
minimum, one can do to show

solidarity with our siblings
who are being subjected to

an ongoing genocide since
more than 17 months.

And you see with you on the
street, as you go on the

street, the most diverse
group of people you

can ever imagine.

And this is really a
gift that Gaza gave us.

Gaza taught us to finally

see how we are all connected,
how different struggles are

connected to each other and
entangled with each other.

And when we call for the
liberation of Palestine

from Zionism, we also
call for the liberation

of Judaism from Zionism.

And we call and we see and
we show solidarity also

with our siblings in
Congo and in Sudan.

and in Kashmir, and in Papua,
and in Myanmar, and in Mexico,

and in so many other places
around the world, places that

are affected by a system that
is based on racism,

is based on exploitive capitalism
and climate injustice,

all those phenomena that are very
much entangled with each other.

When we say that the
liberation of Palestine

from Zionism means also the
liberation of Judaism from

Zionism, we include in this
context also a long list

of other struggles that are
entangled with Palestine.

Palestine becomes a symptom
of a deeply sick ruling

system that we
finally address as such.

[Johannes] Thank you Udi.

Yuval, do you want
to add something?

[Yuval] Yeah, great words,
great words.

I think you really, you really
touched also on the one thing

I wish we could go even more
deeper into the history of

the anti-Deutsch because it's
a generational thing

and maybe we can do even another
episode because I think it is

something that Palestine
is really uncovering

layers, I feel, of how
societies are built

and manufactured and in the
psyche, in the mental,

in the emotional also.

Why do I feel emotion to
this group of people but

not to this group of people?

How was it shaped?

So, I find this topic and
these processes of where

humans can find themselves
pretty fascinating.

I wanted to add to your point
of the real diversity that

you feel, because one of
the things that a lot of the

time the Germans would find
themselves telling me

of course, calling me a kapo
and self-hating Jew

and all of those things.

But if they are the nicer
ones, they would say:

Oh you will never know co-existence
in this, ta, ta, ta, supporting this.

Or you would never
find peace and

ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-

Or like: Go to point 1. 2. 3 and see
how they treat you there.

Exactly from marching down the streets

and showing up
and really co-resisting...

Like, they don't understand,

I found my co-existence.

I exist through the
co-resistance on the street.

It sounds poetic, I didn't
make that up, but I found my

co-existence as, you know, as
wild or big or co-existence,

also a word that has been
so washed which I completely

understand why it's also
like, yeah, not a word that

is almost relevant anymore.

But my place as the Jewish
woman that I am, experience

what I've experienced as
the Jewish woman that I am,

led me to march down the
street with my Palestinian

brothers and sisters.

And this is where
I feel comfortable.

And this is my,
like, I found this.

This connection is
through solidarity.

You're the ones that actually
did not find that

and dove into nationalism

fake nationalism
as well because it's not like

they can show up their own
nationalism, right like

German flag is a very specific
connotation, but if I can

wave the Israeli flag, but do
the same things

nobody would notice
that I'm a bigot

actually.

So, if there's one thing that
I would like to say is that

they're wrong, and only
the way of solidarity

and doing internal work,
that trust that we do,

only then we can like really
move forward and make a

revolution which I really
think all of us want like

a better just world so I'm being
becoming hippie right now but

like that's the thing
I'm on the street, where you at?

That's it.

[Johannes] Yes, thank you.

Revolution is one of
the last words -

that has been a good stream.

The people in the comments
already second you, Yuval,

that we should do another
episode to really have time

to go into the history,
which I think we didn't

find so much tonight.

I really also look
forward to that.

People also please comment
afterwards under the video

what other questions you
might've felt that we left out

that we should answer
in that second episode.

Please subscribe
to the channel.

Thank you Yuval and Udi
for joining tonight.

I learned so much from you.

And I think, yeah, do you
agree that we will do this?

We'll do another episode.

Are you up for it?

[Udi] Definitely.

Thank you.

[Yuval] Yeah, 100%.

Thank you for
this opportunity.

[Johannes] Great.

So we will be back soon.

Also, if you want to
support our work in MERA25,

please go to MERA25.de
and leave us a small donation

or join as a member.

There's also an English
version of the website.

Yes.

Thank you, Yuval.

Thank you, Udi.

Thank you all for watching
and see you next time.

Ciao, ciao.

[Yuval] Thank you.

Free Palestine.