Webinar: Understanding international differences in maths

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με εμένα τον Duncan Crawford

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check that out now though let's get some

details from OC policy analyst Eduardo

magal from the transitions in Upper

secondary Education team at the

education and skills directorate right

here at the

oec over to you

Eduardo hi Lan thank you very much for

the the kind introduction it's a welcome

everyone is a real pleasure to be here

uh just as denan said before starting

with our disc discussion I'm going to

give you what I will try to be a short

that it will be a short presentation and

I'll just sare share my screen with

you

um can you confirm to me Duncan that you

see the presentation yes we can see okay

all good so uh let's start the the the

short presentation about this webinar

understanding International differences

in math so uh just a little bit of a

short contest before uh these report

that dcan mentioned was originally

commissioned by the department for

education in the UK in

2023 under the former conservative

government of Rishi sunak as a part of a

policy that intended to increase uh

participation mathematics up to uh 18

years result uh the former prime

minister was uh worried about the

relatively low participation of masss in

England Vis AES the other developed

Nations and he mentioned that England

suffered from a specific anti- mats

mindset

that needed to be countered by making

mats compulsory up to 18 years old so uh

in our report we that I mentioned before

we we look at provision of mathematics

in a secondary in England and in six

other peer uh systems uh these were just

for information Austria uh British

Columbia in Canada Denmark Ireland uh

New Zealand and uh also Singapore so

it's important to say obviously since

since then the UK changed governments

and this policy of making math

compulsory up to 18 is no longer in

place uh but nevertheless the the

analysis that this report does has very

interesting insights that I believe and

we believe it are very useful for for

not only England but a lot of systems

across the the oecd and the world uh so

let's start about um these big words

that are cultural view of mathematics

there are a lot of depictions and

connotations of mathematics in popular

culture that can provide some an

insights on mly how people uh see and

talk about mathematics and how children

and young people actually hear about it

and create their own perceptions so um

this first one is from a report in

England that talks about the views of

mathematics namely about parents and

this is a quote from a parent to a child

that was referred as a standard attitude

and this I I believe this uh Faithfully

represents what the ex prime minister

Rishi sunak mentioned when he talked

about an anti- mindsets another example

and this I found it particularly funny

but also in a dramatic tone of a

16-year-old this is a title of an

article from King's College London about

how uh the reasons why 16year olds uh

give to not continue study mathematics

uh further example uh comes from the USA

in '92 I believe about this tin Barbie

doll uh that said this phrase um math

class is tough and I mean obviously

today we consider this very problematic

uh obviously as well because of the

gender stereotypes it perpetuates but I

think it's quite telling about what was

considered normal at least at the time

uh in terms of the views of the

discipline and the more last one a more

contrasting example is from um Japan in

2002 uh where there was a

misunderstanding that in the context of

some policy reforms um P was being

taught in school as being three this

generated a massive turmo in Japanese

society which is also an interesting

contrasting examp example to the

previous ones uh we saw so there's like

three main messages I want to take on

from here before we go into the the

analysis itself first of all it's like

cultural uh views of anything but in

mathematics in particular are extremely

hard to pin down second Point obviously

everyone has their own views of

mathematics and these are influenced by

a myriad of different factors and uh but

but the depictions that we do with

mathematics and now we talk about in a

society level are extremely influential

on how younger people will actually

perceive and deal with the discipline uh

in their future so moving on to our

report mathematics for Life uh and work

which uh was out uh since this morning

and I advise you all to to take a look

uh we looked at a few things we looked

at outcomes of mathematics in a per

secondary systems the requirements for

mathematics in in across the systems how

these different uh systems cater for

different needs uh of students and their

abs uh throughout different uh Pro by

providing different levels an option

uh as well we discussed the cultural

views and attitudes towards the

discipline and lastly uh the influence

that student parent and labor market

perspectives have on mathematics uh one

important conclusion from this report is

that we look at obviously the policies

and now they they shape the way uh

students interact the discipline and a

lot of what might seem in the beginning

as cultural views actually are uh as

danan mention in introduction about

public policies uh so moving to this

piece of data in fact there important

Insight is that uh there is no specific

country or very few specific countries

with what we call a culture of of

mathematics here we have some dat look

at enjoyment of mathematics 15 from the

Pisa survey and the primary school from

the team survey and also a self uh

selfefficacy index and participation

just to be context what is self- index

participation this is an index that was

created in the cont of Pisa and

basically it's the student

self-perception on their capacity to

solve a problem problems of pure Applied

Mathematics I will give an example so

people understand better for instance uh

in terms of algebra is if students look

at the timetable of a train can they

work out like with what time the table

will reach uh certain stations uh so

what we see here is that when you look

at England it's actually above the OCD

average and most of their peer countries

uh on the on enjoyment and the selfon

index but the participation is still uh

quite low and this POS like like an

important question for us to to to

understand um but this is not just on

the the self-perception uh

self-perceptions on attitudes is also on

results when you look here the data from

the the the mean scores of mathematics

in Pisa 22 we see that England is here

on the right side on purple by the way

purple is obviously England and the peer

countries I mentioned before we see that

they they do quite well so um it is it

is it is interesting to see that uh

actually

they they they not only have positive

attitudes they do quite well and still

there was quite a few a few uh quite a

low percentage of of enrollment um one

further data point here is the chart uh

that looks at mathematics and numy

proficiency uh between um 15y old in p

and 24 years old in Pak just to give the

context basically uh this this is a an

exercise that was done in an o report

that harmonized the data of one cohort

that did P in 2003 and then how these

skills were evaluated later when they

did Pak in

2012 uh and obviously this is an

harmonization of data but this is not a

longital study uh but still holds

important conclusions and the main

message here to take is that a p at 15

although it's important it's not the end

of the line and what happens uh after 15

in Upp per secondary education and in

the early labor market interactions is

of extreme importance to the development

of an mental skills like literacy in in

students so we see here that actually

across the OCD uh these Group by 31

score points in this period which is a

very considerable uh value and just uh

by the way the new P the new Pak data

although this one is old will come out

next next month in December so keep an

eye out for

it so um what so if culture doesn't tell

us what give us the answer then we look

at the policies and like to to explain

maybe why England has so so low uh such

a low enrollment and uh obviously here

we talk about the the options and levels

uh and a diverse offer of mathematics in

Upper secondary education is very

important to cater for students with

different Ambitions and different

strength and we see these are very a

very common strategy on British Colombia

Denmark Ireland and so on a second of a

second option is second factor is the

vocational education and either as a

separate discipline itself or integrated

on other disciplines it is a crucial

strategy for many systems to uh uh make

sure that all students acquire the

mathematical skills they need and

Austria and Denmark are a very very

successful examples of of this uh third

Point uh is obviously making it

compulsory which is not in the uh in the

UK after 16 but is the case for instance

of Austria as a core subject of the

program curriculum uh but it's important

to say that uh although making it compul

could help it's not it's not uh not

necessarily the answer and we have

systems that why they don't have it

compulsory they have near Universal

participation which is the case of

Ireland Singapore which connects my next

point to the higher education about the

the ter teral requirements that can work

as a perer level for instance uh you

might not have it as a mandatory but if

all universities all uh higher education

institutions require you to have it in

Practical terms people will have to take

it and uh this can be an important

factor um just moving on towards the end

of presentation I wanted to go back to

my first point of diversity which is

really important to to as you can see

here that all systems provide near all

systems provide mathematically different

levels and uh and um options and we see

on the X uh access the the number of

options provide our PR secondary systems

and on the Y AIS the number of levels uh

and here we see that England uh like is

highlighted for having like a

particularly low diversity year they do

have they do offer Core Mathematics uh

as an alternative to the A Levels but uh

obviously um there is some problems and

the takeup was really low one of we

discussed in the report some of the

challenges one of them was actually

something we mentioned before that uh

education institutions were not valuing

this uh this discipline uh but basically

what are the consequences for of this is

what we want to discuss and one the lack

of diversity has the risk that mainly

the upper secondary programs on

disciplines will not cater for all

students which bring me to my last Point

here um which is basically levels

mathematics just for a little context uh

in England the the prary education

systems divide into stages from 14 to 16

uh we have what they call the gcsc then

they takes the they take these exams and

then after 16 they can pick uh three

threea levels to to do a ptil 18 being

mathematics is not mandatory after the

this transition that 16y old and here to

explain just this graph briefly on the

x-axis we see what are the grades they

they have this this exam at uh at 16 the

gcss being nine grade nine is a higher

grade and on the left on on the left on

the y axis we see the progression rates

from this gcsc stage to the A Levels

according to the the different

disciplines we're talking about and if

you look at this chart you can see that

mathematics that is here in this group

blue greenish uh color we see that this

the line is very flat on the lower

grades and then becomes extremely steep

which means that only the high

performing uh students in mathematics

are actually enrolling in the a levels

of mathematics um for for for give to

give a a bit of information what a grade

seven to a grade nine is equivalent to

an A or a star in England which means

that in pretty the consequence of this

only very very high performing kids are

doing this if they don't have a nay they

won't be be be be taking this um so

there is a lack of options mainly for

high perform for non-h high performing

students that could do maema could be

doing it but they don't have an option

that works for them just as a plus this

is also visible on the distribution of

grades when we see in England we see

that uh when we see the the A Levels

grades of different disciplines in

mathematics is only the distribution

reveals that most people have high

grades uh which reflects the obviously

the the selection bias of whom enter

this discipline and this contracts with

other systems that have more options

more levels and where the distribution

is flatter and more more equable which

is the case of Ireland if Linda wants to

touch this this point later on so with

this I conclude and apologize myself for

going a bit over

time thank you so much Eduardo that

really was very interesting indeed and

also interesting to see the drop off in

students who like mathematics when they

primary age but how much it drops off by

the time they're 15 years old there is a

question from kyi mamoto who's asking

about uh the former prime minister Rishi

sunak pledge to make all children learn

m to the age of 18 asking is it the UK

or just England and then it is just

England that's because education is

devolved in the UK and of course now the

sunap conservative government is no

longer there they lost the election so

there is now a labor government in the

UK

so thanks for that question and please

to everyone else please write in your

questions and we will try to get through

as many as possible now though I think

it's probably a good time to introduce

our panel without further Ado so ya

milang is joining us he's senior adviser

for the national Agency for education

and quality at Denmark's children and

education Ministry and Linda Ramsbottom

is also joining us she's senior post

primary inspector from Ireland's

Department of educ ation thank you both

so much for joining us I want to start

by talking uh about ages and Mathematics

because um math and numerously are

clearly an important part of education

but until what age should children learn

mathematics obviously the former British

prime minister said the age of 18 uh

Yola milang what do you

think so the short and politician answer

would definitely be that depends uh and

so I mean obviously mathematics is

important for most people right it's

instrumentally important from many jobs

it's a requirement for doing further

education but it's also something that's

useful in uh everyday life we all need

to be able to do our budget we all need

to be able to understand why it's a bad

idea to borrow money at a really high

interest rate so obviously one shouldn't

end mathematics too early uh but what

the exact right age would be I think is

a difficult question I think empirically

looking at Denmark we can see that we've

had a change over the past decades from

a system where the mathematics education

that we would do in our academic upper

secondary track would be geared H

towards mathematics as

um as a science disciplined to watch

more of a view that well really mathemat

and then those that chose not to do and

then you know that level could be really

high because it was a smaller group but

then with the with the for like 20 years

ago 15 20 years ago there was definitely

changes in how we we did our academic

track in Upper upper secondary so that

much more students like a greater number

of students now probably study

mathematics but then perhaps for some at

least at a lower level because the types

of student that used to not study

mathematics now study it but and that

reflects also I think a change in

mathematics is important for everyone so

one shouldn't end mathematics education

too early but it's definitely impossible

to say whether 16 17 18 19 14 would be

the right

age just a quick followup for you if you

don't mind so you said now there's more

children who are studying it to a later

age do you get push back from certain

young people you say you know why should

I be studying mathematics I'm not

interested in it I know you're telling

me it's important but it's not something

which I think I want to pursue in the

future or is necessary for whatever

career I want to do so luckily I don't

think the young people are aware of what

how they're impacted by reforms done 15

years ago so we don't definitely don't

get the push

back

in that

way um but uh what we definitely do get

is that you know the more varied student

population you have in a in a in a given

math problem the harder it is to teach

right it would it's easier to sit down

with five PhD students in mathematics

and discuss something that it is to

introduce a class of 25 people with with

different entry levels in mathematics so

uh you know there it is definitely the

case

that people's prior experience with

mathematics and how and motivation for

being in class would would definitely

have an impact that's something we hear

from from from teachers for sure okay I

see thanks so much for that Linda R

bottom from Ireland's Department of

Education let me bring you into the

conversation what is the situation in

Ireland actually do all students study

maths up until the age of 18 good

morning everybody um thank you yes in

Ireland we have compulsory mathematics

up to the age of 16 so that's lower

secondary um education in Ireland and

then after that we have a couple of

different ways students can access

mathematics well it's not compulsory it

is technically compulsory because the

majority of students will take um

mathematics to gain entry into further

education so into third level or they

may also want their mathematics to enter

the workforce or a trade so after our

Junior cycle which we call the first

three years we then have a track which

we call the leaving start applied about

3,000 students out of um a small

proportion of our students take that

that option which would be an

mathematical applications they call it

it's very practical it's not geared

towards getting you into University

although you can eventually move into

University or third level education it's

more practical course this students

would follow for two years the

traditional leaving start we would call

it is broken up then into three

different levels so students can access

a level that appropriate their needs and

abilities so technically while it's not

compulsory we have retention in Ireland

uh for for students from first year

lower secondary all the way to their

final upper secondary is over 90% so the

vast majority 98% of students would

follow some level of mathematics in in

Ireland

and if you having so many students do

that some 90% does that have an impact

which is quantifiable on the economy um

do you see it have a positive impact on

jobs or is that not is there not data to

show that yes we we do have some data to

show that um about

120,000 um Irish people would be

involved in stem educa stem um careers

and about a quarter of them are females

and we also have have statistic to show

that over the highest level of stem

graduates per capital we would have

between the 20 year years of age and 29

years of age in in comparison to Europe

so we would have a kind of um I suppose

a population who would be highly

qualified in the area of mathematics we

have a lot of industries that come into

Ireland um in the pharmaceutical

Industries and other that likes those

kind of industries that would require

mathematics in

Ireland thank you for that Eduardo let

me bring you back in to discuss some

more about the international data is

there any data that shows it's important

to teach more complex mathematics until

the age of

18 yeah definitely I think I think there

is a strongly evidence to support that

is important to to teach mathematics

during the during the upper secondary

and has implications not only for

individuals but also for society one of

the first things I wanted to to mention

here very briefly is that uh it's not

only not only about mathematics but also

numeracy while mathematics deals with

things as geometry algebra Etc numeracy

refers to the Practical ability to

understand these Concepts and apply them

on real life situations and these things

are

interconnected um many times people

would wonder oh why do I need this

certain content from the mathematics

program to to my daily life uh but but

the problem is is not only necessarily

by this content per se but about the

skills that this this gives to the to

the students and how they can apply them

then in their lives and this goes to a

goes from things to financial decisions

to health decision Etc and particular I

wanted to say about the the role of a

per secondary it's very often the last

stage of formal education people are uh

in contact with and it's just before

transitions to the transition to

adulthood where students many when

people many times will have to uh will

need these skills these numerously

related skills uh to make decisions in

very very complex decisions in the real

the real world setting but in more in

terms of data because because you

mentioned that there's some financial

data um we know from many studies and

studies in the UK particularly that uh

low numy skills are related to poor

financial decisions and there was one

stud in particular that says the annual

cost of around 460 pounds per year uh on

individuals that have low low numeracy

uh skills but also like in employment

and earnings we have some data from DOD

from from the P survey of adult skills

that I I mentioned uh early uh earlier

uh that St people with high numeracy

skills are more likely to to be employed

and earn per hour up to 133% more than

the their peers with lower numeracy

skills and not only that but we actually

see that this this impact on employment

and earnings is more is higher uh in

when we compare the numerous the

difference in numerous skills than

actually the differences in in literacy

skills so it's actually very important

but also the so societal level I want to

to make a last point it does affect

productivity national income social

wellbeing there was another state in the

UK that mentioned more than 20 billion

pounds per year of losses coming from uh

uh low numeracy skills uh that a lot of

people uh that lot a lot of percentage

of young people had in society and this

is equivalent to 1.3% of the GDP at the

time um and this also brings a question

of equity and distribution of skills um

a lot of times people that come from

more privileged backgrounds um actually

are the ones that are caught on this

Perpetual cycles of disadvantages and

having lower numeracy skills not

reaching the opportunities not reaching

the well the best paying jobs and

actually cannot break the this this

cycle so it's really important to

increase the the social Mobility to

restore the social elevator but also to

respond to a diverse and high skill

demands of today's economy so just uh

just to tell you like where where like

for example we see in pza level two it's

what we call the minimum proficiency uh

in mathematics is important uh we need

more and this is what the data from Pak

that I show earlier wanted meant is

meant to to tell you is precisely it

matters what happens after 15 it matters

what happens at the age of uh a per

secondary education and even perhaps

further so it's it's extremely important

that yes students to take this

discipline and uh acquire the numeracy

skills they need to lead successful

lives thank you so much for that Eduardo

and thank you to everyone who is in

sending in comments and questions uh hi

to Rachel from Bristol saying hello

greetings from Australia from Kina uh

Mel in Denmark saying hello and there's

a question from which has just jumped

off my screen from Ivon Elliot so I'll

I'll uh pose this question I think to

who's who's probably best yal at Malang

I think is probably best this question

ion Elliot asks yter do you think

mathematics is taught in a manner that

allows students to appreciate the need

to learn

mathematics I'm not sure but I'm

also I was thinking about whether we

whether it should be like that whether

we want you know students to learn

mathematics or indeed learn anything at

least if we talking about primary school

children because they feel the need to

do it I mean when when children enter

school at uh at six or five or seven

they're sort of little learning machines

right they want to learn they're really

really curious about the world and they

want to learn about reading they want to

learn about numbers they want to learn

about the world and then for whatever

reason uh we managed to make them less

interested in in learning I think 's

report showed this really well that when

you have those International assessments

that can uh that that have a measuring

Point both at fourth grade and e8th

grade you see that the children are

generally less or the young people are

less enthusiastic about learning

mathematics and other subjects when

they're older uh which I think is one of

the major problems we have with with

education in general and perhaps

mathematics

in in uh mathematics specifically so I

don't know whether it's the way we teach

uh La misses out because we don't manage

to communicate to students why

mathematics is important or whether it's

we fail for making it as engaging or

interesting as it should be but I'm I I

would certainly agree that there is

something about the way schooling is set

out and the way that mathematic is

taught where we seem to be losing people

losing children along the way and that's

certainly not good and we can see this

also moving you know beyond lower

secondary into all the different tracks

that all our countries have in Upper

secondary that the experiences that the

students the young people have had with

mathematics previously certainly have an

impact uh let's say the more vulnerable

student group we work with our national

education system I have I have talked to

teachers saying you know we really need

to before we can even get into teaching

mathematics we need to you know remove

from them all the bad experiences

they've had with uh being taught

mathematics previously uh and I mean

that's certainly important and I mean

most of those exper experiences are

experienced in in primary school so

there is something about how mathematics

is taught whether it's mathematics

specifically or whether it's something

in general with our schooling model I

don't know but we certainly have

challenges on on on retaining motivation

as as children grow older whereas very

few people have a problem with you know

maintaining the motivation to learn of

six years old and seven year olds right

me that's just just not a problem but it

it it increases as as they get

older thank you so much for that and

just a quick followup for you if you

don't mind because what kind of mats are

we talking about when you're teaching

older students um in Denmark is it is it

understanding how to do more complex

equations for example or is it giving

young people um information on how to

understand things like mortgages in car

loans what's sort of math are we talking

about well it depends I mean so for the

end of uh of a lower secondary right so

the last stages in which everyone

basically follows the same track you

know what which you do until you are 15

or 16 I mean there are more formal math

than there is when they're younger but

there is also an emphasis on uh on

applied math I think you know the idea

of mathematical competencies which is

basically that you should have some

skills and you should apply them to the

real world I think that's very strong in

in the Danish uh curriculum for uh for

lower secondary then moving into upper

secondary it it depends even more

because you know there are there are

different tracks right I mean there are

the general academic upper secondary

what we call gimnasium in Denmark

following sort of a German tradition and

even within that there are

different uh tracks that you can choose

from and some of them go more towards

mer education something more towards

technical education and something is

just more General academic and in all

these three you know they're supposed to

mathematics is supposed to be different

but of course once you you you finish

what we call a level or mathematics I

mean it becomes especially the general

academic it becomes quite theoretical

academic but of course always with an

emphasis on you know it should be used

for something it shouldn't just be for

its own sake but then you have a

completely different track in Upper

secondary which is vocation Education

and Training where you essentially train

to do a specific profession right you

train to become a carpenter or you train

to become a

um um something else right A technician

of some sort and I mean most

of the majority uh of sort of the the

technically minded profession

professions will have some requirements

for math there and there the curriculum

for the math studies you do will always

be geared towards the profession right

so so to the greatest extent possible

the teaching should be done with

examples that are relevant for the work

that's also because students in in the

vet track are often in the ret track

because they wanted to study a

profession not because they wanted to

study mathematics per se so it's

important to keep motivation and

engagement that also math class seem

relevant thank you so much for that one

of the key questions that OC report was

looking at was if there's a predominant

culture towards maass in different

countries that can influence the success

of policies uh Linda Ramsbottom from

Ireland's education department you're an

inspector so you're probably going in

and out of schools meeting teachers and

students and so on even maybe parents is

there sometimes an anti-mass mindset

among those who you meet in Ireland yes

I suppose um my role as an inspector

we're part of the division of the

Department of Education and we have a

dual role as such we have an evaluation

of we started early year so from about

three four years of age all the way

through to 18 19 years of age so we've

inspectorates for each of the different

sectors and we would regularly undertake

a variety of inspection models and we

have announced and unannounced

inspections and during the announced

inspections we would often um have focus

groups meetings with parents uh during

our whole school evaluations and we'd

often have then during the regular

inspections subject inspections in

particular mathematics or program

evaluations with have a number of

programs that we offer in in post

primary we would have a number of

meetings with the focus groups of

students we don't we don't like to call

our those anti-ms what we call their

perception of their ability and it was

interesting when Eduardo put up there

about the the little you know what the

child said about their own understanding

of mathematics I was never good at it

you'd often hear parents saying I was

never good so I don't expect my child to

be good at them or the child themselves

would say my brother or sister was

always better than I was at mathematics

and sometimes there's a gender

difference there as well more recently

in the last couple of weeks we've

started a project where we are looking

at the transfer from the upper upper uh

post Primary School into the first year

second year in post primary and looking

with the with a specific focus on

mathematics and we call these um an on

they're announced inspections for

incidental so it happens in in

incidental model and we're talking to

children and it's really interesting

listening to their voices and the kind

of the motivation that they have and

already they're having preconceived

ideas so that mindset is set nearly

before they even enter the post primary

lower post primary and then that'll

manifest itself as they go through I

think kind of come back to what you were

talking about a few minutes ago well

well we don't call it anti-at we think

it's kind of a perception about their

abilities um and I suppose looking at it

you know as they're how they're

motivated to learn and in Ireland I

suppose we can see as they move in to

the at the teaching practice that they

engage with they'd often say to you in

sixth class mind when I go into first

year the lower secondary it's going to

repeat of sixth class when I get into

second year there's a jump in my

education it's very different and then

we're ready for our first um high stakes

exam in the third year in lower

secondary and that determines sometimes

the approaches the methodologies that

are engaged with during the classes so

it can be once you get to high stakes we

find sometimes at the inspectorate we

would see the teachers per teachers um

pedagogies change um maybe sometimes

maybe it's not as engaging it's more you

know take it down from the board let's

make a note of this let's do the next

one do the next example do the next

question so I think pedagogi does have

an important influence on what happens

also coming back to something Edwardo

said there in Ireland in the last we've

had significant change in our curriculum

and I suppose in 2009 we had literacy

numeracy strategy but coming back to

numeracy in our new curriculum for

junior cycle the first three years of

lower secondary we' now have key skills

and we're looking at moving from a kind

of a comp a Content based curriculum to

a more skills based and one of the key

skills we have at Junior cycle would be

being numerous and what that entails and

moving into our post senior end our

upper secondary we're now looking at

revising our curriculum for upper

secondary and we're talking about key

competencies and we wrap around key

competencies we've ate key competencies

um but the real the main focus ones are

literacy anderes again and in each of

the curriculum specifications that are

being designed those key competencies

must factor into how the curriculum is

designed we've done it at Junior cycle

lower end but now we're moving it so

numeracy is quite a strong feature in

our mathematics and ensuring that

everybody has the ability and the skill

set um to implement it in Beyond

mathematics in other curriculum areas as

well so it's quite an interesting um

link that Eduardo has made as well

between mathematics and numeracy and

what we've done in Ireland so we're

still under a pathway of change

significant change our primary

curriculum is changing our early years

curriculum and framework that we use at

Asher is changing

also thank you for that Linda if I can

bring yelta back in on the question of

an anti-mass mindset is that much of an

issue in Denmark or

not I think I would say much the same

things Linda said right indeed building

on what I said before

that in many way mathematics might be an

Unforgiven subject right I mean at least

it's perceived as such uh that just

to say it really really really simply

and probably too simplistic but you know

an equation is either right or wrong and

making quite a few students scared of

mathematics right it's harder to just

Venture a guess or indeed having a a

discussion about let's think about this

problem mathematically because many

students think that mathematics is not

something you discuss right it's not

something where you reason together it's

something where you have you calculate

and then you have a right or a wrong

answer and that's not you know what

we're looking for in our curriculum

because we actually want students to be

able to see well we have this real life

problem let's translate it into

mathematics and then let's do some

calculations take the Cal the the

results of the calculations and

translate them back into real life

um and that's not often understood you

know it's more the Precision of

mathematics is often what people take

away from it so I wouldn't say anti in

the way that people have a coherent you

know opinion where they don't like math

it's more that I think the the quote

that Edo had on his slide you know

mathematics is just not for me or I've

had bad experience with mathematics in

the past is is is deeply ingrained in in

some student

who might also have had you know parents

saying exactly as was also on that slide

you know mathematics we were never good

at mathematics in this family um and I

think you know these kind of reactions

you can get that with students that have

had bad learning experiences in the past

you can get them in in any subject right

it's it's also really really really

prominent when you try to uh do dyslexia

teaching for adults that have just like

where reading is almost a traumatic

experience but I do think even though

you can get it across the Bo of subject

it's just it's prominent in mathematics

so it's not an anti I wouldn't call it a

culture in that you know it's not like

the the quotation from runak where there

are something in our culture where we

dislike math it's more that you know the

particular the more micro level

engagement that people that students

have had earlier on in their learning

careers uh with mathematics have made

them you

know like like that subject less and

then you know that's something you need

to work on a quick followup for you is a

question from Quan who's talking about

the rise of AI and other technologies

that can easily solve math problems is's

talking about and in a world of AI where

you can ask a computer to work out

almost anything specifically everyday

math questions um how is that impacting

the teaching of math and does math need

to

adapt so as I understand it uh AI is a

language model so it's actually much

worse I think the OCD did a project

where they tried to make uh artificial

intelligent work on on different uh

things and and you know in general they

they are less good at math than at

wordss your traditional computers are

good at words the sort of langu large

language models they're good at words

not numbers which is why they're

interesting anyway so of course you know

the society we live in uh impacts how we

should do I mean if for no other reason

as education systems we need to engage

with AI because it challenged our

examination model uh perhaps less so in

mathematics than in other subjects but

in Denmark we have sort of like long

form written assignments is quite quite

typical of how we assess and I mean

that's obviously the most AI vulnerable

way to assess so we need to we need to

take account of the fact that students

will probably use AI whether we want

them to or not so in that way we should

adapt but I mean at least personally I

haven't I don't think it's it's at least

currently I don't think there is any

need to revolutionize how we teach or

that there are any of the skills and

competences that we think are important

there none of those competen have become

less important with AI I don't think so

thank you so much for that again and I'd

like to for a moment if we all agree or

if most people agree watching this that

it is important for young people to

learn maths to a later age to 18 for

example uh as suggested at the start of

this webinar um how do you go about

doing that in practice particularly for

other countries where it might not be

the same approach uh Linda uh what

approach does Island

take yeah we have um at at the upper

senior cycle we have um we call it

senior cycle uh after our three-year

compulsory education up to the age of 16

or there about students can have the

option then of what we call a one-year

transition program so there's a one year

where students it's an optional program

and they can act up opt in or opt out of

the program if the school offers it in

their in their school in their school

area and and that would actually allow

them to follow on continue on with their

maths education in some format it

doesn't have to be formally it could

follow some aspects of the curriculum

for senior cycle but it shouldn't always

be in the full curriculum and then after

that year you have the two or three

further options we have what we call the

leaving certif leaving certificate

established and that offers three

different options to the students three

different levels of mathematics are

offered in that um leaving start

established we have a foundation level

which really cases for students

abilities who may want mathematics for

everyday life and may not want to go on

to further studies but may need it as an

access point to maybe a trade or an

apprenticeship we then have we call the

next level up will be ordinary level and

in the ordinary level then that will be

Geared for students who who are dealing

with kind of abstract they're starting

to begin with abstract IDE ideas um and

they would access the third level

education at a different level to what

their needs would be but the higher

level then is the top level we would

have in our twoyear final two years of

examination and that is geared towards

students who want to progress the

further studies of mathematics or other

disciplines associated with mathematics

and that would be developing um I

suppose the powers of abstraction and

generalization so there are the kind of

traditional established leaving

certificate the leaving certificate

applied then is a standalone two-year

program however more recently that has

um we've allowed the students to to who

are taking the leaving certify program

to access the leaving certif leaving

certificate established mathematics so

they can opt to do their leaving C

Applied Mathematics and and or follow

the ordinary level or higher level or

Foundation level depending on the school

so we have a range of options available

to students so we don't just after the

junior cycle that's it you don't have

options there are three more levels that

they can continue on with um and I

suppose after that we would um um we

also offer for students who take the

higher level program the higher level

option we've brought in um a bonus point

we call it that's purely for students

who want to go on to third level so they

get an extra 25 bonus points we call it

all of our students who sit their

leaving certif leaving certificate um

receive based on what award they receive

a H1 or whatever it is they receive

points and an additional point is added

on for higher level math matics not for

ordinary level not for foundation just

for higher level so I suppose they're

the kind of ways the the curriculum ways

that we can support

students sorry thank you very much I

need to unmute myself um a quick

followup for you actually because

there's a it's a statement from elizabe

Pastor on the chat who says my

experience is that people think that

being good at mathematics is a question

of talent and not of hard work this is a

serious problem if teachers reinforce

this impression what what experience do

you have uh in irland related to that

kind of issue yeah I suppose from my

perspective being in and out of

classrooms we can see that that there

are some teachers who would perceive

that a student if they're talented

they're excellent they'll be very good

at mathematics it's not always the case

you always have to you will see students

who would try their best and work hard

and will be quite good mathematically I

think sometimes it's how they it's their

motivation I suppose their exposure from

an early stage of as as we've already

spoken about I suppose you know that

need to kind of tease out questions talk

through the possibilities not just one

answer is the only answer and maybe yes

there are talented kids who are quite

good they will get to An Answer without

even thinking about or writing anything

down but some students have to work

through a process and I suppose it's the

ability of a teacher to understand that

some students have the ability to an

innate ability to understand and

different way and that not one approach

is the only approach and I find

sometimes in my inspection work we can

see that that it has to be the teacher's

way to do the question and not allowing

for the creativity amongst the students

and understanding and teasing out why

did you say that is there a

misconception here and using that

misconception to develop a students

understanding what's happening in the

Math's classroom so I think you are

right I think Talent is always

misunderstood as being very good at

mathematics it can be hard work that you

need to think about it work through and

see different problems in in different

ways and in different

contexts thank you so much I want to

bring Eduardo back in to get his

Reflections on some of the past few

comments also there's loads of stuff

going on in the chat apologies right now

it's moving so quickly I'm actually

struggling to read it but yeah AO if I

can bring you back in what are General

approaches that the oecd is taking oecd

countries I should say are taking to

encourage people to to stay in Ms yeah

so um building up uh on what building on

what Lindo was was talking about is very

important to understand that in

mathematics and particularly in F

fundamental disciplines like like

mathematics there is a individual

individual development rates and not uh

every not every student does develop it

like at the at the same Pace uh so I

mean while while for instance some some

students might have a great great skills

uh at 15 many many do need like after

after after 15 16 to solidify solidify

this FAL so I think the main the main

conclusion we take by looking at the

different o systems is the importance of

flexibility a lot of times when there is

no flexibility on how we provide

mathematics how we teach mathematics we

we might uh get students stuck in

certain milestones and then experience

problems of cycles of repetition of dis

motivation of this sense of failure and

um these more on the on the on the

policy side of the provision of

mathematics and um the assessments

actually there was a comment from I

believe Elizabeth that mentioned the

Reed in gcsc and this is actually a

great example to to to bring during this

discussion because in England for

instance when we saw at 16 when students

take the the match CSS and they don't

achieve grade four um when they don't

achieve at least this grade four they

need to take these resits meaning they

need to after 16 continue to do to try

to pass and a lot of times uh they just

get stuck on this cycle of repetition of

doing the same thing over and over again

which might imprint this sense of

failure this the motivation and also

create this fear of mathematics this

horrible thing they cannot get rid of um

so it's an important policy question if

uh the one fit size fits all policy is

actually the most effective approach and

uh in indeed it is not we need like a

diverse range of solutions um the the

the what Linda described as the like the

the Irish case with the different levels

or even we know also from d Mark there's

there is diversity are definitely a are

very important strategies to to do this

and to to make sure that we have a Tor

offer of students on how according to

their strengths and interests uh but the

main point here I I will I will say

again because it's really important to

to to say this is the diversity and um

there are also other ways for instance I

want to bring in the example from

Austria which is one of the peer

countries although for instance Austria

uh only have one maatic option in each

program that is mandatory uh there is a

variety of programs as offers many

programs and in particular in the

vocational uh sector uh it's extreme is

a extreme reach sector in which they

have mathematics taught in different

forms in many cases applies as well as

in different subjects ma imprinted on

the way they they they teach some trades

and some some other subjects and this is

extremely important because it provides

uh diverse range of Pathways uh and it

guarantees at least that students uh can

can can deal with Matas in different

ways and not and not only in one which

is important for their success and for

for their engagement um so yeah I would

say I would say definitely this is one

of the main messages uh we wanted to

bring is to uh one size fitall policies

normally don't work that well and uh try

to be open to to cater from the French

students thank you very much Eduardo and

thanks for all the messages coming in on

the chat as well I'll quickly run

through a few of them uh vmir writes

excellence in maths is a gift from God

which demands hard work but Maths for

every day is a result of hard work only

um in contrast I'm trying to ZIP down

here uh Vester writes mathematics is not

only talent but also hard work and it's

needed to develop logical thinking in

solving problems and there are loads

more comments as well but we really

don't have time to go through all of

them Y at Malang from Denmark's children

and education Ministry if I can bring

you back in because I want to talk to

you about student perceptions which we

did touch on earlier on Denmark does

comparatively well in math to those who

don't know uh internationally uh but

when you look at student perceptions

there is quite a big drop off between

primary and secondary schools and the

decline is pretty big in Denmark we see

this trend in lots of countries but the

decline is pretty steep in Denmark so

why do you think that is and is anything

being done to try and combat

that so I think I I I spoke to that uh

earlier right that there is there seems

to be a general uh problem with uh

children being more motivated to learn

than younger uh than um than older CH

older children and then you know old

older children becoming less motivated

as they go older so I mean we don't I

don't think we have any particular

policy on sort of like say the the stage

where you move from upper secondary to

lower secondary on but it's definitely a

part of our general let's say problem

description uh a couple of years ago we

had an expert group on mathematics

across uh both uh basic education and

upper second theory and all the the

tracks within the upper second that's

tried to uh look at at a a holistic

picture of mathematics teaching in

Denmark and you know this this issue

that you're talking about with the

students being disengaged is definitely

a part of that problem especially

because it means that it's um I think I

I'm repeating something I said earlier

but uh it's harder to teach a class

where you have not only

a uh not only variation in skill but

also a variation in motivation and a

motivation in self efficacy so uh

especially for uh um our vet tracks and

also our tracks for those that didn't

find an easy path path through education

uh there are quite a few students there

that that really have this uh

mathematics was not for me mindset and

you know that's definitely something

that you need to to address and I think

that's probably addressed best

uh by using different strategies in the

different tracks of Education because

you have different students so in the

sort of more practically oriented uh vet

track I think it's one one good way of

addressing motivation of students is to

show how mathematics is relevant to the

profession that they are there to learn

I mean they're motivated to train that

profession that they elected into and we

then think that it's probably good for

them to have some general mathematics as

well but that General mathematics should

be taught so that it's always clear to

the students that it's relevant then if

you go to academic up a secondary where

students or at least some of them are

are should be prep prepared for study in

The Sciences physics mathematics

chemistry where you kind of need

abstract Advanced mathematical skills um

in that way it's probably okay to focus

more on mathematics in its own in its

own sense so I mean I think it's uh just

as most countries in the world have more

differentiated education systems after

the age of 15 16 right and I think the

the solutions for this for how to cheat

math best is probably to build on

whatever was built into your system and

then tailor the teaching of math to uh

whatever track the students are in thank

you very much Linda if I can bring you

back in on the subject of lifelong

learning um we spoke we focus a lot on

you know students and then you know um

Yalta there was just explaining you know

differences between primary age and the

age of 15y old but what about adults how

do you engage or re-engage adults in in

math so that they're better equipped to

deal with societies which are becoming

more complex with more complex data and

more complex

Technologies Now in Ireland we have a

dedicated support service we call it

it's it's like teacher it's an Irish

word for um teacher um it's a

culmination of a number of support

services that we've had over a number of

years they traditionally they would have

had um an opportunity to engage with

teachers through um you know a variety

of different supports and now it's

emerged into this one dedicated um

support service and I suppose in terms

of mathematics we have um it provides a

support service in terms of one day um

release from school so teachers of

mathematics when a new curriculum is

established they have a number of days

one usually one or two per year and the

teachers would access that in addition

then the support services also have uh

worked on initiatives what we call um

numeracy Deep dive where the mathematics

teacher would collaborate with an we

call it um a carrier subject so would

say maybe geography or something like

that would have a level of mathematics

in it and it kind of promote numeracy in

the classroom and promote good

mathematical skills and competencies

throughout the system so you have a peer

working with you so your colleague would

be working with you to develop your

numeracy skills but also to support the

consistency in approaches and and

language that was used in the

mathematics class into other discipline

areas we would also have um out of field

report so teachers who want to come back

in and re-engage as a mathematics

teacher um the department has funded

since 2012 we've had two versions 2012

to about 2018 and 2019 then it started a

second um uh phase of this um support

the department will fund um upskilling

of teachers who want to come back into

the education system who have a degree

but are not mathematics teachers and

that has helped us to a certain extent

with supporting the lifelong learning of

teachers in

mathematics thank you so much look we

are almost out of time but I'm going to

do a quick fire around with our panelist

just before they go and thanks to

everyone again for sending in your

questions so yal I think I'll start with

you um if there was one suggestion for a

priority action that countries could

take to make maths more appealing to

more students if we're talking about

this culture of mathematics what

priority action would you recommend to

make maths more appealing to more

students

I think it's probably uh important to uh

make sure that students have early on

the right foundation so focus on letting

what we in D is call number

comprehension which is the basic Al

algebra that then too many students miss

out on that and then that just haunts

them for the rest of their education

system so sort of teaching them the most

important most foundational stuff early

on and then you know kindling the flame

and keeping it alive by by not making

them experience defeat after defeat

because they missed some basic stuff

early on would probably be very

important thank you very much and Linda

Rams botton totally agree and I suppose

we have a policy now that our literacy

numeracy and digital literacy strategy

if and get all my strategies out here we

had uh initially was in primary and

post- primary now we' brought it back to

the early year settings as well so we've

included the early year settings with

numeracy so developing that love and

that fun and the sense of achievement at

an early stage and developing it through

through practical you know real life

experiences and the continuity

appropriate continuity and teasing out

those questions with kids that's what I

would recommend if I could at all thanks

ail thanks so much and last but not

least oec policy analyst Eduardo madish

uh what do you think uh how do you make

maths more appealing to students what's

the one priority action you'd recommend

well our work is mostly on up per

secondary education and I I mean and

yelta and Linda already talked very well

about the previous the the younger age

than the primary but I would like to say

that at least at the per secondary

education level it would be important to

adapt to needs of all students uh

regardless of their previous experiences

we should build um diverse Pathways to

make sure they actually can many times

catch up they can change the perception

of mathematics and they can build the

skills they actually they need uh for

the future and to keep the doors open so

again I wanted to underline the question

of option levels also some Bridge

programs uh I this focus on not leaving

anyone behind despite uh any negative

experiences before I think it's the main

the central point I want to make on how

to improve the relationship with with

mathematics thank you so much to Eduardo

from the oecd of course also to yaa

malvan from Denmark's children and

education Ministry and also to Linda

Rams Borton from Ireland's Department of

Education that is it for now I'm afraid

thank you to the production team for all

their help behind the scenes and thank

you for tuning in for this o webinar we

will have plenty more of them in store

for you right up until Christmas uh

please do check out the new oecd report

Maths for life and work which this

webinar has been based on you'll be able

to learn much more about what we have

discussed the link was shared in the

chat also please do also check out the

oecd education podcast top class which

has featured various episodes on

mathematics including a chat with the US

teacher of the year who happens to be a

math teacher herself that's it for now

hope to see you for another o webinar

soon all the best