The psychology of scarcity: Why having too little means so much
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0:00 - 0:05♪ [upbeat violin and piano] ♪
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0:05 - 0:08♪ ♪
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0:08 - 0:11>[ ELDAR SHAFIR]
It's a pleasure to be here. -
0:11 - 0:13I'm going to talk to you about
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0:13 - 0:19how scarcity imposes demand
on our cognitive capacity. -
0:19 - 0:23In other words, on how the psychology
that comes from not having enough -
0:23 - 0:26demands attention
and cognitive capacity -
0:26 - 0:29and leaves us with
less mind for other things. -
0:29 - 0:34I want to include— I want to quickly
mention scarcity of money, certainly, -
0:34 - 0:36poverty, scarcity of time,
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0:36 - 0:39scarcity of calories
if you're dieting, water, etc. -
0:39 - 0:41And the argument is going to be then,
-
0:41 - 0:43when you don't have
enough of something, -
0:43 - 0:47it captures your attention,
it captures your mental capacity, -
0:47 - 0:48and leaves you with less.
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0:48 - 0:51You'll see that how all this
connects actually very nicely -
0:51 - 0:53with the talks we had before.
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0:53 - 0:55We all know that attention is limited.
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0:55 - 0:57One of the things that's interesting
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0:57 - 1:00is that we fail to appreciate
the extent to which it's limited. -
1:00 - 1:04Many of you may have seen recent
research on using cell phone in cars. -
1:04 - 1:06We all know it's not so good.
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1:06 - 1:10It's a disaster, as it compares to
being legally drunk by U.S. standards. -
1:10 - 1:12This is a classroom in New Haven.
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1:12 - 1:14It's a lovely study that was done,
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1:14 - 1:18where they noticed that the fifth graders
in this class, randomly assigned, -
1:18 - 1:21happened to find themselves
either on the quiet side of the school -
1:21 - 1:24or on the other side of the school
where trains were going by. -
1:24 - 1:27And so, when you sit in a class
and this train goes by, -
1:27 - 1:28there should be a sound.
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1:28 - 1:29If you could hear it,
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1:29 - 1:32that has an enormous distraction
on kids' attentional capacity, -
1:32 - 1:35and what they found is that
the kids near the train tracks -
1:35 - 1:39were one year in academic
performance behind their friends -
1:39 - 1:42on the other side of
the school at fifth grade. -
1:42 - 1:45They then installed soundproofing,
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1:45 - 1:48and a couple of years later,
they were matched again. -
1:48 - 1:51So, this is just a passing train
with an enormous impact, -
1:51 - 1:55and the point is that these
are trains in the external world. -
1:55 - 1:57You don't need them
to be in the external world. -
1:57 - 2:00Imagine yourself in an office,
very quiet, no distractions, -
2:00 - 2:08except you're worried about paying rent
or a child who is sick or anything else. -
2:08 - 2:11Those internal trains are going to
have an impact that could compare, -
2:11 - 2:15in terms of the attentional distraction
and the cognitive capacity, -
2:15 - 2:17to having distractions on the outside.
-
2:18 - 2:20An amazing study
that was done in the ’40s -
2:20 - 2:23had to do with when the allied forces
realized they were about to inherit -
2:23 - 2:25a lot of hungry people in Europe,
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2:25 - 2:27and they had no idea
how to feed them. -
2:27 - 2:30Feeding hungry people
is a non-trivial task. -
2:30 - 2:33A famous researcher
into nutrition in Minnesota -
2:33 - 2:35conducted a series of studies.
-
2:35 - 2:40These are conscientious objectors who,
since they're objecting to “the Good War,” -
2:40 - 2:42were very eager to volunteer
to these studies. -
2:42 - 2:44These are capable young men
who volunteered -
2:44 - 2:48to starve, not to death,
but to immense discomfort. -
2:48 - 2:51And when you look at
the descriptions of what happens, -
2:51 - 2:53you know, there is
the obvious physical stuff. -
2:53 - 2:56They're too tired to keep
their hands up to wash their hair. -
2:56 - 2:59They need pillows to sit down
because their butts are too naked. -
2:59 - 3:02But the amazing stuff
also is the psychological. -
3:02 - 3:03These are young talented men
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3:03 - 3:05who spend their entire time
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3:05 - 3:09planning to open restaurants,
reading recipes, -
3:09 - 3:13comparing prices of foods
in different stores in the newspapers. -
3:13 - 3:17That's all they're thinking about.
It's taking all their cognitive capacity. -
3:17 - 3:19It's about food.
-
3:19 - 3:21At some point, the researchers
decide to distract them -
3:21 - 3:25by showing them some films,
and these guys describe the films, -
3:25 - 3:28and they couldn't care less
about the love scenes. -
3:28 - 3:30They want to see the meals.
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3:30 - 3:31And what's important here is,
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3:31 - 3:33this is not something
they're choosing to do; -
3:33 - 3:35in a sense, they'd rather
do something else. -
3:35 - 3:38It just imposes itself on their minds
and it's very hard to avoid. -
3:38 - 3:42So the notion is that cognitive capacity,
which is a very limited resource, -
3:42 - 3:45is captured by when you
don't have enough of something, -
3:45 - 3:49and you basically find yourself
automatically paying a lot of mind -
3:49 - 3:52to that thing you don't have.
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3:52 - 3:55Now, a footnote, if this works well,
-
3:55 - 3:57you should have these
annoying blinks on the screen. -
3:57 - 4:00If it was darker in here,
it would be very annoying. -
4:00 - 4:04These blinks that you're seeing
last 350 milliseconds. -
4:04 - 4:08That's how long you get
darkness every time you blink. -
4:08 - 4:11You blink approximately
15 times a minute. -
4:11 - 4:13During the 12 hours
that you're awake every day, -
4:13 - 4:17you get one hour of nothing
but dark input into your eyes, -
4:17 - 4:19which you have never seen.
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4:19 - 4:23That's to say that your brain
is doing amazing stuff -
4:23 - 4:25to which you have no introspective access.
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4:25 - 4:26And that's sort of important
-
4:26 - 4:29because we walk around
with this amazing machine -
4:29 - 4:30and we think we know what it's doing.
-
4:30 - 4:33You know, we know roughly,
like we know what our liver is doing, -
4:33 - 4:35unless you're a physician.
-
4:35 - 4:37And so, basically, a lot
of the behavioral research, -
4:37 - 4:40and I'm saying this
because it's very important -
4:40 - 4:41when you get behavioral research
-
4:41 - 4:44not to do that,
“Yeah, does it feel right to me or not?” -
4:44 - 4:47The argument is a lot of what
we discover in behavioral research -
4:47 - 4:50is about a mechanism
that's magnificently sophisticated, -
4:50 - 4:52that's behind the eyes
and between the ears -
4:52 - 4:54to which you have very little access.
-
4:54 - 4:57I want to talk about particularly about
poverty and a little bit about time, -
4:57 - 5:00but again, the notion is
that scarcity in food, friends, water -
5:00 - 5:03will capture your attention in this way
and be very profound. -
5:03 - 5:06Nice studies have been shown,
for example, that it's top of mind. -
5:06 - 5:08So, you get subjects into a laboratory
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5:08 - 5:10who have been asked
not to drink for 4 hours. -
5:10 - 5:12They're now very thirsty.
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5:12 - 5:14Half of them are randomly
assigned to get water, -
5:14 - 5:16the other half get pretzels.
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5:16 - 5:18Not a good idea when you're thirsty.
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5:18 - 5:21Then they sit in front of a computer
and have to identify words. -
5:21 - 5:22These are words that are flashing
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5:22 - 5:26roughly as long as you had the [blink]
(it's 400 milliseconds), -
5:26 - 5:28and you have to decide:
yes, it's a word or not it's a word. -
5:28 - 5:32And what you find is, when you
get words that are related to thirst, -
5:32 - 5:34those who have had pretzels
identify these words -
5:34 - 5:37much faster than those who've had water.
-
5:37 - 5:40If you compare the performance
to neutral words, they're identical. -
5:40 - 5:43Again, this is not at the level--
this is pre-decisional. -
5:43 - 5:45It's way too fast.
-
5:45 - 5:48It's literally showing that the words
that are related to thirst -
5:48 - 5:50have higher semantic activation.
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5:50 - 5:51They're literally top of mind.
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5:51 - 5:55They're there to be tickled the minute
anything happens that's relevant, -
5:55 - 5:56as opposed to other words.
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5:56 - 5:59And what the notion is,
that when it's top of mind, -
5:59 - 6:02loneliness, for example,
there's nice research showing -
6:02 - 6:05(it's kind of a sad research,
but it's very compelling), -
6:05 - 6:09when you're very lonely and
loneliness is mentioned or brought up, -
6:09 - 6:11you function less well.
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6:11 - 6:12It's distracting.
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6:12 - 6:16So, the sort of tragic impact
that loneliness has -
6:16 - 6:19is that people are socially
as capable as anybody else, -
6:19 - 6:21[but] when they think about loneliness,
-
6:21 - 6:24such as, for example,
when you're interacting with somebody, -
6:24 - 6:27what really matters to you to do well,
that's when you do the least well -
6:27 - 6:31because you have cognitive capacity taken
by the concerns related to loneliness. -
6:31 - 6:34Dieting and [Cinnabons?], very similar.
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6:34 - 6:36Here was a study within California.
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6:36 - 6:39This was a study done
with dieters and non-dieters. -
6:39 - 6:41We have them play fun word searches.
-
6:41 - 6:43You see these are words
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6:43 - 6:46where the odd-number words are
food-related (cake, doughnuts, sweets) -
6:46 - 6:48and the even-number words are neutral.
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6:48 - 6:52There's two conditions: they get either
this one or they get another condition -
6:52 - 6:54where now the food-related
words have been replaced -
6:54 - 6:57by other irrelevant, neutral words.
-
6:57 - 7:00We have the dieters look
and the non-dieters look -
7:00 - 7:01to find all these words.
-
7:01 - 7:04And what I'm going to do now
is look at how long it takes them -
7:04 - 7:08to find the neutral words,
the words that are common to both. -
7:08 - 7:12So basically, I'm asking: How long
does it take you to find the word “cloud” -
7:12 - 7:17when it's preceded by a donut
or when it's preceded by a picture? -
7:17 - 7:20And what you see is
that [in] the non-dieters -
7:20 - 7:22it makes no significant difference.
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7:22 - 7:26The dieters take twice as long to find
“cloud,” having just seen a donut, -
7:26 - 7:28than having just seen a neutral word.
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7:28 - 7:30[light laughter from audience]
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7:30 - 7:32It literally interferes
with what you do next. -
7:32 - 7:36So, it's top of mind, and when it's
triggered, it sits there, and it lingers, -
7:36 - 7:39and it takes cognitive capacity
for what else you want to do. -
7:39 - 7:42Financial poverty is
the ultimate of all scarcities. -
7:42 - 7:44We've talked about
a lot of other scarcities. -
7:44 - 7:49It's important to keep in mind,
this is one that's nondiscretionary. -
7:49 - 7:51I'll talk briefly about the busy.
-
7:51 - 7:53You know, when you're very busy,
you don't have time. -
7:53 - 7:55We all talk about how busy we are.
-
7:55 - 7:57Don't tell anybody, but between us,
-
7:57 - 7:59if you stop doing what you're doing,
nothing would happen [chuckles] -
7:59 - 8:02except for a few physicians in the room.
[light laughter from audience] -
8:02 - 8:05But basically, it's discretionary.
We choose to be busy. -
8:05 - 8:06When you're poor –
-
8:06 - 8:08and we can get into
interesting discussions about -
8:08 - 8:12what is the minimum that you need
and how that changes culturally, -
8:12 - 8:14but when you don't have enough,
when you can't pay rent, -
8:14 - 8:16when you can't put food on the table,
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8:16 - 8:19that's not discretionary,
and you can't take a break. -
8:19 - 8:20When you're a dieter
(there's really nice research on this) -
8:20 - 8:23and you have a very important project
this week, you say, “You know what? -
8:23 - 8:25This week, I'll just do what I need to do.
I'll go back to dieting next week.” -
8:25 - 8:27Notice you can't say,
“I'll be rich this week. -
8:27 - 8:28I'll go back to being poor next.”
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8:28 - 8:29Not available.
-
8:29 - 8:33So, it's a much more chronic,
permanent, and imposing condition. -
8:33 - 8:36And what we did in this case is,
-
8:36 - 8:38we ran some studies
in a mall in New Jersey. -
8:38 - 8:41We go to people in the mall,
ask them to participate. -
8:41 - 8:45They sit in front of a computer,
we give them classic cognitive tests -
8:45 - 8:48that have been used in cognitive
science for the last 30 or 40 years. -
8:48 - 8:52One is a test of cognitive control,
divided attention of sorts. -
8:52 - 8:54So, you sit in front of a computer.
-
8:54 - 8:56When you see heart,
you have to quickly press the same side. -
8:56 - 8:59When you see flower,
you have to press the opposite side. -
8:59 - 9:03You're getting a headache right away.
It's confusing. It takes a lot of attention. -
9:03 - 9:07The other-- All of you have seen if you've
done an SAT or GRE, any kind of test, -
9:07 - 9:12it's a classic test that's supposed
to capture fluid intelligence. -
9:12 - 9:14It's a major component of the IQ test.
-
9:14 - 9:17Basically, what shape fits best
in the missing space? -
9:17 - 9:19So, they sit and do these tests.
-
9:19 - 9:22And while they're doing these tests,
-
9:22 - 9:24we give them
financial scenarios to contemplate. -
9:24 - 9:27Your car breaks down, you have to think:
Are you going to take care of it? -
9:27 - 9:31In one condition,
the non-menacing condition, -
9:31 - 9:33the car is going to cost $300 to fix.
-
9:33 - 9:36In the other condition,
the challenging condition, -
9:36 - 9:37it's going to cost $1,500.
-
9:37 - 9:40As you're thinking about:
Are you going to take care of the car? -
9:40 - 9:42You do these, and then
when you finish them, -
9:42 - 9:45you tell us how you’re going to solve
your financial problem, okay? -
9:45 - 9:50Finally, we'll get people's annual
household income and divide them -
9:50 - 9:51by basically splitting in half
into rich and poor, okay? -
9:54 - 9:56So, we know you're either rich or poor,
we'll give you these problems, -
9:56 - 9:59either a cheap car to take care of
or an expensive car to take care of, -
9:59 - 10:03and you do these cognitive
control and intelligence tests, -
10:03 - 10:05what do you get?
-
10:05 - 10:07Let's look first at the rich.
-
10:07 - 10:10The rich, when they contemplate
the easy or the difficult car, -
10:10 - 10:13perform equally well
in the cognitive control. -
10:13 - 10:15It's like a driving test.
-
10:15 - 10:21The poor, when they
contemplate the easy car, -
10:21 - 10:22the one that they can easily afford,
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10:22 - 10:25look exactly like the rich.
-
10:25 - 10:28But when they're thinking about
a car that's hard to manage, -
10:28 - 10:29that's hard to afford,
-
10:29 - 10:32they're now driving
significantly less well. -
10:32 - 10:34The cognitive control has diminished.
-
10:34 - 10:36Let's move to IQ.
-
10:36 - 10:39The rich are not impacted
by what kind of car they're fixing -
10:39 - 10:40while they're taking
these cognitive tests. -
10:40 - 10:44The poor, when they're thinking about
the car that's easy to take care of -
10:44 - 10:47look indistinguishable from the rich.
-
10:47 - 10:48But when the poor are worried
-
10:48 - 10:52about a car that's presenting
a real financial challenge, -
10:52 - 10:53they're performing here--
-
10:53 - 10:55We've done this now
four different ways, -
10:55 - 10:58replicated it four times
with financial incentives, -
10:58 - 11:00they're losing the equivalent
of 13 IQ points. -
11:01 - 11:04So, these are the same people
who, minutes ago, -
11:04 - 11:07when the car was manageable,
performed just like the rich. -
11:07 - 11:11Now that the car presents a serious
imposition (takes a lot of mind), -
11:11 - 11:14perform significantly less well
on these IQ tests, -
11:14 - 11:17on these fluid intelligence tests.
-
11:17 - 11:21We did all the controls we could
in New Jersey, -
11:21 - 11:22but these are, at the end of the day,
different people. -
11:22 - 11:24They're richer and less rich.
-
11:24 - 11:25They have had different education
-
11:25 - 11:27and they have different heart rates
and everything else. -
11:27 - 11:31The dream was, could we do this
within subjects? The same person. -
11:31 - 11:33It's not so easy to get people,
-
11:33 - 11:34you know, hundreds of them
who are both rich and poor, -
11:34 - 11:37but the third world does
present cases like these, -
11:37 - 11:38and this is the best one we found.
-
11:38 - 11:44These are sugarcane harvests
outside Chennai in the fields in India, -
11:44 - 11:46and the sugarcane is
a particularly good case -
11:46 - 11:48because you harvest only once a year.
-
11:48 - 11:51These are all people
whose bulk of their income -
11:51 - 11:53is received only once a year.
-
11:53 - 11:55They're rich after the harvest;
-
11:55 - 11:57and because they're living
relatively tight lives -
11:57 - 12:00and have a hard time
smoothing their consumption, -
12:00 - 12:03they find themselves poor
before the harvest. -
12:03 - 12:06So, we run the same people
now four months apart, -
12:06 - 12:09two months before harvest
and two months after harvest, -
12:09 - 12:13A lot of nuances that make this
very nice because the mills, -
12:13 - 12:16because they're over capacity,
they tell the farmer when to harvest. -
12:16 - 12:18So, the harvests are spread
over many months. -
12:18 - 12:20We get rid of all kinds
of months effects, etc. -
12:20 - 12:22What you find, essentially,
like in New Jersey, -
12:22 - 12:27the same people score
significantly less well -
12:27 - 12:30on cognitive control
and fluid intelligence tests -
12:30 - 12:33before harvest when they're poor
-
12:33 - 12:36as opposed to after harvest
when they're rich. -
12:36 - 12:40And now, of course, we've kept health,
education, everything else intact. -
12:40 - 12:42It's literally a function of
whether you have enough or not -
12:42 - 12:45and how much cognitive capacity
that takes from you -
12:45 - 12:47as you're trying to do these stupid tests.
-
12:47 - 12:53Time-- I'll spend less time today
on time, but many of us, -
12:53 - 12:57many of you are time-poor in ways
that are not completely different -
12:57 - 13:00from the way that our subjects in India
and New Jersey are money-poor. -
13:00 - 13:01You have to think trade-offs.
-
13:01 - 13:04You have to borrow from tomorrow
-
13:04 - 13:06to do things that you haven't had
time to do today at high interest, etc. -
13:06 - 13:12What we did here is run—
These are Princeton students. -
13:12 - 13:14Nobody would blame them for being myopic.
-
13:14 - 13:15They're highly educated,
they're very sophisticated. -
13:15 - 13:19We have them play a game, a classic
many of you know, Family Feud. -
13:19 - 13:20It's a game where they're
trying to get the answers. -
13:20 - 13:22They're very eager to do well.
-
13:22 - 13:24The performance gets
translated into payoff. -
13:24 - 13:27And we make them randomly
either time-rich or time-poor. -
13:27 - 13:31So, you either have 50 seconds
per round or 15 seconds per round, -
13:31 - 13:32which is not quite enough.
-
13:32 - 13:34And in some conditions,
you cannot borrow. -
13:34 - 13:37So, when you're out of time,
you have to move to the next round. -
13:37 - 13:39In other cases, we allow you to borrow.
-
13:39 - 13:43We offer you payday loans,
basically predatory lending rates. -
13:43 - 13:44You can borrow at high rates.
-
13:44 - 13:46So, every second you take now,
-
13:46 - 13:49you have 2 seconds less
left at the end of the game. -
13:49 - 13:52We look at how they do.
-
13:52 - 13:54What happens? There's two measures.
-
13:54 - 13:56There's rounds completed
and points earned. -
13:56 - 13:58I'm not going into the details.
-
13:58 - 14:01This is what you see
when there's no ability to borrow. -
14:01 - 14:02So, when you cannot borrow,
-
14:02 - 14:06notice the rich obviously play
more rounds and get more points -
14:06 - 14:08because they're rich,
they're playing more games. -
14:08 - 14:10Now I'm going to let you borrow.
-
14:10 - 14:12Now, if you run out of time,
-
14:12 - 14:14if you want to,
you can take more seconds. -
14:14 - 14:16The rich notice—
-
14:16 - 14:20(This should come on at a time.
Maybe I don't have it.) -
14:20 - 14:22[For] the rich, notice,
there's no impact at all. -
14:22 - 14:25There is high-interest
borrowing available. -
14:25 - 14:27Do I want to borrow?
I look and I say, -
14:27 - 14:29“No, it's not really useful.
It's not really worth it. -
14:29 - 14:30I'm not doing it.”
-
14:30 - 14:33The poor (same Princeton students
just with less money), -
14:33 - 14:36are dying to get this right,
are running out of time, -
14:36 - 14:38are focused on what
they're doing right now, -
14:38 - 14:42the periphery gets less mind,
and they borrow. -
14:42 - 14:43And they run out of time too quickly,
-
14:43 - 14:45and they score and they
leave the experiment -
14:45 - 14:46with substantially less money.
-
14:46 - 14:49So, we're basically seeing
the sophisticated Princeton students -
14:49 - 14:53taking payday loans of the kind
that we typically claim -
14:53 - 14:56the poor are doing out of
lack of insight and intelligence. -
14:56 - 14:58It looks very much
not a function of who the person is, -
14:58 - 15:02but the context you put them in
that makes them act poor -
15:02 - 15:03in ways that minutes earlier
-
15:03 - 15:07in the mall, in the fields of Chennai,
in the Princeton lab, -
15:07 - 15:10you avoided if you were
just a bit richer. -
15:10 - 15:15Implications, we all need to take
bandwidth a lot more seriously. -
15:15 - 15:19We have a very limited mind
when it's devoted to some areas -- -
15:19 - 15:22and in poverty, it's a massive one
that never leaves us alone -- -
15:22 - 15:24there is just less mind
to pay attention to other things. -
15:24 - 15:26And policymakers
typically don't think this way. -
15:26 - 15:30So, you saw Phil's FAFSA application.
-
15:30 - 15:33Think about a poor person
who comes for some benefits program. -
15:33 - 15:36Imagine I propose—
Let's charge them $300 to join. -
15:36 - 15:38You'd say to me,
“Wait, they have no money. -
15:38 - 15:39They're coming for help.
-
15:39 - 15:40Why would you charge them money?”
-
15:40 - 15:42Well, they also don't have bandwidth.
-
15:42 - 15:45And when we charge them massive bandwidth
-
15:45 - 15:47to attend all kinds of events
at the right hour -
15:47 - 15:49and fill out complicated forms
-
15:49 - 15:52and do all the things that exactly
are what they don't have enough of, -
15:52 - 15:55namely bandwidth
and attentional resources, -
15:55 - 15:57we're kind of doing the wrong policies.
-
15:57 - 16:00So, Phil's FAFSA, beautiful study
that you saw, is one example -
16:00 - 16:05where you basically could
alleviate some bandwidth limitations. -
16:05 - 16:09A lot of work has been done on defaulting
workers into retirement savings -
16:09 - 16:11as supposed to expecting them
to do it on their own. -
16:11 - 16:14That has a big effect among
people who are too busy. -
16:14 - 16:16And in healthcare,
there's a massive effect. -
16:16 - 16:17So, this is a glow cap.
-
16:17 - 16:22A glow cap is a $12 plastic bottle
that delivers you medication, -
16:22 - 16:25and it's structured so that
if it's not open at the right time, -
16:25 - 16:28it blips and blinks and
sends you an email saying, -
16:28 - 16:29“I haven't been opened in time.“
-
16:29 - 16:32And it turns out there are some
estimates in the third world -
16:32 - 16:35where HIV is one case where
you can't just take 60% of the time. -
16:35 - 16:37You have to take all of it all the time.
-
16:37 - 16:39Some estimates that $12 glow cap
-
16:39 - 16:42is having a two-decade
life expectancy impact. -
16:42 - 16:46And clearly, it's a case where people
want to take it, they intend to take it, -
16:46 - 16:48but bandwidth is limited, and they forget.
-
16:48 - 16:51And so, if you take that more seriously,
there's an enormous amount you can do. -
16:51 - 16:55Last thought, I'll leave you just
a picture that might stay in your mind. -
16:55 - 16:58In aviation, it's become
very clear very early on -
16:58 - 17:00that you can't train pilots any better.
-
17:00 - 17:01That's all they can do.
-
17:01 - 17:03As avionics get more complicated,
-
17:03 - 17:06it's up to you to design
more sophisticated cockpits. -
17:06 - 17:10And the argument here is, if you look
at people managing their poverty, -
17:10 - 17:11there is scarcity in different resources,
-
17:11 - 17:16it's up to us, policymakers and others,
to design basically a cockpit a life -
17:16 - 17:19that's more manageable
given severely limited resources. -
17:19 - 17:21Okay, I'll stop here.
-
17:21 - 17:24[audience applauds]
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