What’s Really Happening in Palestine — with Mohammed El-Kurd & Yanis Varoufakis

Hello, hello,
hello and welcome.

I'm Mehran Khalili.

We're DiEM25, a radical
political movement for Europe.

And this is another live
discussion featuring

subversive ideas you
won't hear anywhere else.

And tonight, once again,
we're focusing on Palestine.

We're nearly 20 months into a
live streamed modern variant

of what experts across the
board call a genocide in Gaza.

Key Israeli ministers have
publicly called for the

strip's total destruction and
the removal of its people.

And Israel's ongoing campaign
is executing that vision,

wiping out entire families,
bombing shelters and

schools.

For three months. Israel has imposed
a new siege and famine is spreading.

Harrowing doesn't even begin
to describe some of the images

that are coming out of Gaza.

And this will go down
as one of the greatest

crimes of history.

And yet, something is shifting.

Some Western leaders and high
profile commentators who are

not on the left are making
critical noises on Israel.

for the first time.

France, the UK and Canada jointly

branded Israel's conduct
intolerable, unacceptable

and wholly disproportionate.

Establishment flagship papers
like the Financial Times,

the Economist, the Times and the
Washington Post have followed suit.

Their editorial
boards urging hard

leverage on Israel.

And even former Israeli prime
ministers like Ehud Barak

and Ehud Olmert now call
the Gaza assault criminal

and say Netanyahu
belongs in the Hague.

And lastly, the optics
for Israel are terrible.

A fresh Pew poll finds Israel viewed
unfavorably in 20 of 24

countries surveyed, with
numbers collapsing among

young voters in the West.

So what's really happening
in the ground in Gaza

and of course, in the West Bank,
where we just saw last week

that Israel has announced
the construction of

22 new settlements.

Why has the international
reaction up to

now been so muted?

And are these recent
cracks real or cosmetic?

Or is it too little, too late?

And what has to happen next?

What can we as active,
engaged citizens

actively do about all this?

So we've got a great
panel for you tonight.

We've got Mohammed
Al Kurd with us.

Hey, Mohammed.

He's a writer, organiser,
one of the most outspoken

and unapologetic Palestinian
voices out there, and

the author of the new
book 'Perfect Victims'.

And of course, our
own Yanis Varoufakis.

And you, you out there, if
you've got thoughts, comments,

rants, things that you would like to
get off your chest about Gaza

and like to put
them to our panel.

Gaza, Palestine, the West
Bank, Israel in general.

Please put them in the
YouTube chat and we'll

put them to our panel.

[Yanis] Let's kick it off with Yanis.

[Yanis] Thank you, Mehran.

Thank you, Mohammed,
for joining us today.

It's so important
to have your voice.

It's so important to keep
drumming away at what is

happening in Palestine.

We keep saying that and
it has never been said

enough, however, that

what's going on in Palestine
today is the great ethical

clarifier of our time.

The position that
people have taken

either complicitous with the
genocide or opposing genocide

is going to stigmatise
or mark them forever.

There is no doubt that in
a few years time,

in a decade or so, everybody
will claim, in the same way

that now, they're claiming
that they were against

apartheid in South Africa.

They will claim that they
were against the genocide

of the Palestinians.

But of course, that
doesn't matter.

What matters is the ethical
stance, the political stance

that people take today.

Mehran, you mentioned
the sea change.

There has been a sea change
when it comes to the

official position of the
Western establishment media.

But the sea change which is
taking place in Palestine,

in Gaza, in East Jerusalem, in
the West Bank, is exactly

in the opposite direction.

Misanthropy and
barbarism is galloping.

It is being reinforced
on a daily basis.

Now we have this new outfit
of American mercenary

pseudo humanitarians, the what is
it called, the Gaza Misanthropic.

They call themselves
humanitarian agency or

whatever, and they are
simply the humanitarian

wing of the genocidal IDF.

They are luring Palestinians
to particular spots in

order to shoot them.

They're luring them with food.

At the same time, Mohammed is
going to tell us a lot more

about that, in East Jerusalem,
in the West bank, there is the

ultimate proof that Israel
is lying through its teeth

when it says that the problem
is Hamas, the problem is -

East Jerusalem is not Hamas -.

Even if Hamas simply did
a disappearing act,

the genocide, the ethnic cleansing
would continue in the same way

that it was going on very well
before Hamas came into being.

So one last word before I
invite you, Mohammed, to brief us

and to state your case
as you must, as we all must.

This sea change in the
establishment liberal

media and some conservative
media, I very much fear

that it's a smokescreen.

I very much fear that
it is a tactical,

not a strategic change.

I noticed that 10 days ago
or so, I was in England

and I was debating in a book fair
with a former Tory minister

who was a staunch Zionist.

He remains a staunch Zionist.

I noticed that on the same
day that the New York Times,

Wall Street Journal, Financial
Times, the Guardian,

Le Monde, on the same day,
they all started being

critical of Netanyahu.

So was he.

But my, if you want
interpretation,

is that they are tactically
criticising Netanyahu.

They call the massacres,
the starvation,

the what is a genocide.

They don't call it genocide,
but, but they call it

intolerable for one reason.

To shield Netanyahu and to
shield Israel from what really

would hurt, would be a total
embargo, not just on weaponry,

but complete sanctions,
commercial sanctions,

financial sanctions.

They are trying to avoid
that by conceding that

Netanyahu is a killer.

They are shielding him
by turning against him

in words in order to make
sure that the world is not...

Well, at least the West
doesn't turn against

Netanyahu's government
in practice.

Let us not forget that this
monstrous lie about the West

being committed to the two
state solution is hiding

the fact that, they have been
complicit and they have been

totally supportive of the
one man whose life project

is to kill any possibility
of a two state solution.

So, the complicity and hypocrisy
of the Western press, Western

governments, especially those
ones who support, supposedly

in words, but certainly not in
deeds, a two state solution.

This is long standing and
it's going to continue

even when Netanyahu
is out of the picture.

Because at some point
Netanyahu is going to

be out of the picture.

But let us not forget that
the crushing majority of

the Knesset, with the exception
of our comrade Ofer Cassif

and maybe one or two other people,
they are also in the business

of denying Palestinians
their right to exist,

denying that there is a people
called the Palestinians.

Essentially the so-called
Israeli peace movement

has disappeared, more or less,
it's shrunk immensely.

And at least when it comes
to its representation in the

Knesset, you have not just
a genocidal government,

but you have a genocidal regime.

And the liberal establishment
in Europe and in Canada,

in Australia, in the United
States, in the West,

are simply in the business
of shielding them through

some harsh words that
they're uttering.

At least that's my view.

I would like Mohammed
to comment on that.

But, Mohammed, don't feel
constrained to talk

about whatever it
is that I have said.

Feel free to share your
perspective with us.

[Mehran] Mohammed, your reaction,
please, to what Yanis said?

[Mohammed] I think you
absolutely had the...

First of all, it's a real
pleasure to be with you here

and it's a real pleasure
to be among all those

who are listening to us.

I think you hit
the nail on the head.

There's, I think, a
coordinated effort

and this is really expected
and almost played out.

And we've seen this throughout
every single Israeli assault on

the Gaza Strip, be it in 2008,
2014, or the various multiple

assaults on the West Bank

and the eastern part of Occupied
Jerusalem throughout the years

is that there's an
attempt to pin the blame on

Netanyahu.

There's an attempt to reframe
genocide as a one man show

whose responsibility falls
on Netanyahu's shoulder.

And we forget that Netanyahu
is elected time and time again

democratically by
the Israeli population.

We forget that Netanyahu
is upheld and supported

by an entire regime
and establishment

that is genocidal.

And there is the world, there
is a whole system responsible

for this genocide.

It is Zionism.

And I think what is happening
so far and wide, be it in the

mainstream media landscape or
in Western governments

around the world, is that
there's an attempt to

rehabilitate Zionism,
there's an attempt to

save Zionism from itself,
from its own actions.

But the world is
reaching a fever pitch.

And surely, maybe procedurally
and institutionally, things

have not changed much
around the world.

But in terms of public opinion
and in terms of the populist

sentiment, the world is
turning against Zionism.

And we understand now
that it must be abolished.

A recent poll that was

released, I think two weeks
ago, showed that 82%,

82% of the Israeli public believes
in ethnic cleansing and the

forcible displacement of
Gazans in the Gaza Strip.

And 47% believes in killing
every man, woman and child,

47% of the Israeli population.

But we also need not to look
to polls to understand this.

Because the Israeli policy,
the official Israeli policy,

indicates that this is
actually the sentiment

that is widespread inside
the Israeli society.

Their actions speak
much, much louder than

their words.

And I think this
brings to mind,

a kind of discrepancy that
I'm almost amused by,

if it weren't so grim and morbid,
I'm almost amused by

in the West, is that
Western leaders,

Western representatives are
fine with displacement

and dehumanisation
being the policy

and procedure of the
Israeli government.

They're fine with the Israeli
government grazing and

destroying and dismantling
Palestinian life.

But as soon as an Israeli
politician comes out and

says the quiet part out loud,
somehow it's an international

or diplomatic crisis.

And what this has allowed
is that as long as Israelis

can be polite or diplomatic in
their, in the way they operate

on the global stage, then
everything continues

to be business as usual.

It's almost like we have
to show a little gratitude

or a little thanks to
Israeli ministers like Itamar Ben-Gvir

and Bezalel Smotrich who are so rancid
and so blatant in their Zionism

and their anti-Palestinian racism.

But like you said, the story
doesn't begin or end in Gaza.

And it's a tough question to
navigate because in Gaza

you have people who are
incinerated alive by

Israeli warplanes.

every single day, we're hearing
that every 40 minutes there's

a new Palestinian child who
is killed in the Gaza Strip.

So it almost makes the
struggles and the battles that

are being waged on Jerusalem
and on the West Bank almost

seem trivial and futile.

But we know that they aren't.

And they're not only a matter
of violations of human rights,

but they are ultimately
essentially a battle over

the true essence and the
true identity of Palestine

or what remains of Palestine.

If I am to zero in on
Jerusalem, for example,

way, way before October 7th,
we've had various techniques of

ethnic cleansing at hand.

I'll speak a little bit about
my own neighborhood.

For example, I grew up in a
neighborhood called Sheikh Jarrah

that sits between
West and East Jerusalem.

And ever since I was alive
we've had cell organisations,

many of them registered
in the US as charities,

sue our families and say that

our houses are theirs
by dividing the (inaudible).

Of course they collaborate with the
Israeli government and Israeli

military to displace us and
dispossess us of our homes.

But this is not the end.

This is not the ceiling of this kind
of ethnic cleansing scheme

In Silwan, which
is just 10 minutes

away from our house.

You have Palestinian homes
now that are at the risk of

demolition because quote,
unquote, they were built

'without permission'.

But if you peel a little bit
behind or if you look behind

the headline, you would
realise that the Israeli

municipality rejects about
94% of building permit

applications submitted
by Palestinians.

If you go just a little bit,
10 minutes out of Silwan

you go to Issawiya and you see
that the community is deprived

of its natural growth because
it's surrounded by what the

Israeli government labeled
as natural resources

or environmentally
protected areas.

But again, if you peel behind
the headline, you would

realise that all but 10%
of land within so called

Israel has been declared
to be state owned.

And this is for the sole purpose
of expelling community growth

depriving communities
of natural growth.

Obviously there's a lot to be
said about settler violence

in the West Bank, about the
targeting of Palestinians,

fighters or otherwise,
all over Palestine

all over historic Palestine.

What's most grim to me,
and I'll end on this point,

I'll end on this note.

But what is most grim and
heartbreaking to me is that

after maybe 60,000,
if not 100,000 Palestinians

dead, killed, martyred,
everything has changed

and yet, it seems like
nothing has changed.

It seems that their ceiling
of brutality continues to

be raised every single day.

The ceiling of their
massacres, the creativity

with which they conduct their
massacres in the aid lines,

in the hospitals, in the
refugee tents,

continues to be heightened.

And yet, the ceiling of
our courage, the ceiling

of our boldness, our
bravery is lowered.

We expect of each
other way less.

And we commend each
other for very little.

We commend one another for
doing very, very little.

And I know we'll talk a
little bit more about what is

expected of people and what
are the pressure points

and so on.

But I will say that it is
heartbreaking that after

two years of genocide,
we are still yet to

call it a genocide.

We are still yet to completely
denounce and renounce Zionism

as a racist settler colonial
ideologies that needs

to be exterminated,
eradicated from the world.

There is no redeeming
it, not in a cultural sense,

not in a social sense,
in no sense,

because there is no
redeeming white supremacy.

In the same way, there is no
redeeming Nazism

and there is no
redeeming racism.

And we cannot continue
to allow Zionism to be

exceptionalised and coddled
in the Western world.

[Mehran] Thank you, Mohammed,
for those very heartfelt words.

And just to put some numbers
on this, the Economist

recently, which obviously
is not exactly a Left wing

publication, said that up to
109,000 people have died

as a direct result
of the violence in Gaza.

And that doesn't
even include

- Since October 7, 2023,
of course-

that doesn't include the so called
indirect cases, which could be

many many times higher
as a result of destroyed

health infrastructure and so on.

Yanis, could I ask just to
linger a bit more on this

issue of the international
reaction and the sense at least

that the Overton Window
is shifting a little.

What role, if any, has
public pressure played,

do you think, in this?

[Yanis] At the risk of,

at the risk of angering some
of our comrades, let me say

that the pressure that we have
exerted on our authorities has

been nowhere near sufficient.

You know, we like to pat
ourselves on the back that

we demonstrate and we stage
protests outside embassies.

And some of those protests
were quite large, especially

in London and in other places.

But folks, it's nothing,
nothing compared to the

magnitude of the crime against
humanity which is being

perpetrated in Palestine.

When the Eurovision Song Contest

is allowed to take place.

And we haven't managed
to shut this down.

Not only have we not
managed to shut it down

but, the Israeli entry, which was
clearly, I mean, it's got

nothing to do with singing
and dancing, it was a clear

Zionist ploy to put on
a show of complicity

and cheerleading for the IDF.

And it wins the public's vote.

And it wasn't rigged.

Of course, people
who vote for the Eurovision

are a sub-sample of the
European public opinion.

But still, Israel
is committing in real time

on live television, or at least
TikTok and Instagram and so on

live social media, a genocide.

And the furor that we are
creating is, I do not believe

that it is proportional to the
crime that is being committed.

So, yes, there's been
pressure, but not enough.

I go to demonstrations in
Athens and I can tell you,

because, I have
the benefit of old age.

I'm in my mid-60s now and I
remember demonstrations about

this, that and the other,
including demonstrations

for Palestine.

I mean, I happened to be in
a demonstration for Palestine

in 1982 in the center of
Athens at the time when

what Israel is now doing
to Gaza, it was doing to

South Lebanon and Beirut.

It was a time when the
enemy was not Hamas,

it was the PLO, Fatah and
Arafat and his warriors.

And I remember there were
no less than 800,000 people

in the center of Athens in
support of the Palestinians.

We have not reached
these numbers.

My country, and I mentioned
my country because it is

my country, what can I do

is complicit, totally complicit.

Right wing governments,
social democratic governments

and the Left wing government
in which I was a minister.

Well, to my defense, they only
did it after I resigned,

but nevertheless, they hugged
and kissed with Netanyahu

and signed commercial
and defense/offense deals

that effectively rendered
Greece a Zionist outpost.

And we have done nothing as
a movement, as a political

agglomeration, in
order to counter that.

Even the parties of the
opposition in Greece's

parliament, which signed a
document condemning Netanyahu

and so on and so forth.

They didn't condemn themselves
for having been complicit

in all these commercial
and military deals

when they were in government.

They have not done a mea culpa
to say: You know what,

we shouldn't have done that,
it was a mistake.

And they are not calling for a total
embargo of Israel.

So, even the center Left,
even parts of the Left

I mean, to think that
Die Linke in Germany,

our comrades in Germany were
going hand in hand with

those who were banning DiEM25
from staging a

Palestine Congress last year.

You had Die Linke politicians
who were signing with

the FDP, with the SPD,
with CDU and so on,

documents that
we're presenting us

as terrorist enablers.

So no, you know, we Europeans,
especially we Progressives

who are on the side of the
Palestinians, we have no right

to congratulate ourselves for
the resistance we've put up.

We have been below, below
the level at which we would

be in a position to say:
Yes, we've done our bit.

We have not done our bit.

[Mehran] Thank you,
Yanis

Mohammed, what
would you say to that?

Do you think that activism
for Palestine

has done its bit and has brought
about any of these changes?

Or is it just the realities
are shifting and as

Yanis said earlier, at the beginning
that maybe they feel like

now is the time when they need to
take a different stance.

[Mohammed] It's a hard
question to tackle

because you don't want to,

you don't want to
rain on people's parade

or kind of demoralise them.

But the honest truth
is that just by looking at

the situation in Gaza,
we can see that our efforts

have not been successful.

And if we are just
assessing our efforts by

the sentiment change
around the world that hasn't

yet translated into any
kind of systematic

or institutional change,
then we also understand

that we have failed.

I operate both in the Arab world
and in the Western world

and there's kind of a
dichotomy

that's always at play
our people love to say,

and Palestinians love to say:
Look at the West,

look at how many thousands
are in the streets

protesting for Gaza, because
this is kind of unmatched

in Arab countries.

And the key context here
is that people protest

here because they can.

And I wonder how much of these
protests would occur if they

were without permits,

If they didn't have,
in the United States,

the First Amendment rights
that they had here.

And I think with Egypt and
Jordan, other repressive

regimes that have kind of
banned and disallowed any

kind of protest for Gaza.

The issue between these
different kind of peoples

here in these geographies
is not an issue of different

bravery and so on,
but it's a different policy.

I think we understand
the open valve theory

idea that people should
be allowed to let off

some steam in order
to prevent revolution.

I thought with the coming and
with the inauguration of Trump

and the crackdown on
freedom of speech

the crackdown on
student movements

here in this country,
and I'm sorry to bring it in

to the United States context,

I thought with this kind of crackdown
there would be a rebellion.

But unfortunately, it's
as though people have not

learned anything about the
way fascism operates

and people have retreated.

I know stories from people who
are journalists who worked for

a summer in Beirut who have
decided to take off from

their LinkedIn because
they didn't want to be

targeted, as if that's
a rational fear to have.

I've thought about people who...

I've heard about people who
are now afraid to speak Arabic

on the phone, in the street,
people who have changed their names

stuff like this, all of this
preemptive obeying of fascism

all of this ceding
ground to fascism without

understanding that
whatever ground we

concede today,
we will not recover

is really, really disappointing.

And this elevation of the self
and the personal safety over

the collective liberation has
been really disappointing.

But I also want to think
about another aspect

of the failure of...

I don't want to call it the failure,
but the limitations of the

solidarity movement here.

If we are seeing day and night
images of children incinerated

limbs hanging from ceiling fans,

people being blown to
bits in their hospital beds,

journalists, about 300
journalists murdered

in broad daylight all the time,
we understand then the issue

around the world
is not ignorance

and the issue is not
about raising awareness.

So much of the work that
we need to be doing

needs to be done internally,

inside our own communities.

And particularly the example
I'll use, and again,

sorry to zero in on a US context,
but the example of using is

there needs to be discord,
internal discord within

the Jewish community.

This is absolutely
beyond necessary

and beyond late at this point.

There is not one single Jewish
institution or any single

facet of Jewish life that
is not in cahoots with

the Israeli government.

And of course, and absolutely
the Israeli government works

over time to synonymise
Judaism with Zionism.

But it falls on the shoulders
of progressive Jews to make

that conflation, to render
that completion absolutely

explicit and rejected.

And yet, you walk into
any random synagogue

and you find the Israeli
flag soaring in it.

You have Jewish activists who
come to our protest who then

go to dinner and have dinner
with their uncles and aunts

who work in the ADL and the
JNF and so on and so forth.

We've read history and we
understood that Algeria and

South Africa and all of these
places were not just liberated

or decolonised through the
sheer will of their people.

That was absolutely the
most important aspect of it.

But it was also discord
within the colony itself

and internal ruptures
within the colony itself.

And yet here, as people are
being burned alive

in their hospital beds, as people
are being starved to death

as a weapon of war waged by
the Zionist regime

you have prominent Jewish progressive
organisations and organisers

who still talk about the
dangers of ostracizing Zionists

the dangers of rejecting Zionism

or the importance of
understanding the nuances

of Zionism, as if they would
extend any of this nuance

or complexity or grace to
Nazism or white supremacy.

These are things that
are unforgivable.

Now, of course,

Jewish society is not
the only party here

to blame for the genocide.

And this critique can be
extended again to academia.

How, does it feel for us
as people who are outside of

the academy, who have been
informed by the academy,

by so-called revolutionary thinkers
in the academy, to watch them

not only retreat and concede
ground and cower

but actively condemn the resistance
that they so fiercely

write about in their
theoretical papers.

And I will name names, for
example, I thought it was

almost cartoonish and a
caricature to see that

the co-author of
'Decolonization Is Not A Metaphor'

go out of her way to
release a statement.

Denouncing and condemning
the colonial work and political violence

done by the Palestinian resistance

So Gaza, in a lot of ways
it has revealed all of

these contradictions that
are capable of driving

a sane person crazy.

Be it in academia,
be it in our allyships

in the circles of our allies,
be it in churches,

in cultural institutions, here,
for example, in New York.

But the task isn't just to
point out the double standard,

to point out the absurdity,
but to also draw

a clear line in the sand,
to reject this kind of

duplicitous behavior.

You cannot be in solidarity
with the Palestinian people

while actively keeping ties
and maintaining relationships

with the people,
dehumanising us.

And I will say just one more
thing about the fact that

so many people, it seems, are
finally turning the corner,

are finally, without any humility,
without any recognition

without any acknowledgment
of wrongdoing,

are finally saying that
what's happening in

Palestine is a genocide.

It isn't because they
are a moral compass of some sort

or because they have
a postponed or a belated

moral clarity emerging
from within them.

But it's because it's finally
safe to call it a war crime.

It's finally safe to
call it unacceptable

and reprehensible.

There's an economy for that.

There's an economy in
the suffering of the

Palestinian people.

Now there is room for people
to write books and lectures

and make art about the
genocide of the Palestinian people

make sculptures
about Palestinian corpses

and win awards.

Too late and two years after
a genocide has started.

We want to have as broad
a coalition as possible,

of course, and we need to
welcome people into our

movement with open arms.

But I think we also should
be wary and cautious of

opportunists and cautious
of people who are not honest

in their allyship.

I'll stop here.

[Mehran] Thank you Mohammed.

I'll just read out a couple
of quick comments, reactions

to what you've
been saying both of you

from people in the chat.

Eric says: 'There's a sense
in the US that at least here

that public protests, whether
peaceful or not on Palestine

has zero impact.'

Patricia says: 'Some protest
is better than no protest.

However it needs
to be ramped up.'

Kirk Doherty's again, referring
to the US: 'Too many refuse to leave

the two party monopoly and
continue to drink the cool aid

of the mainstream news media.'

David Nathan says:
'War crimes are not war.'

Alisa reminds us that:
Every single genocide scholar

has said: 'What's
going on is a genocide.

And Chris Fisher says: 'Israel's
is a military machine under

the direction of evil who
are slaughtering lightly

armed people with all the
might of a modern army.

It's not a war, it's an
atrocity and it's sick.'

Yanis, can I pass it to
you for your reaction

to what Mohammed said?

[Yanis] Three points in reaction
to Mohammed's

very important contribution.

The first one concerns our
DiEM25 Jewish comrades

and the good news there
Mohammed, is that

these particular people, the
people who helped us organise:

The Jewish Voice for a
Just Peace in the Middle East

-that's a Berlin based or
German based Jewish organisation.

People like Iris Hefets who's
appeared on this program

and Udi Raz and our great
comrade David Adler and so on.

These are Jewish comrades,
Mohammed that

have been totally demonised
and sidelined by, not just the Zionist

segment of Jewish
communities, but also by

liberal progressive Jews who
have not made the break,

the complete break that you've
been asking for and which

every anti-racist must make.

So there have been, and there
are, and these are our best

comrades, Jews that were
prepared to call a spade a spade

and essentially to
be jettisoned from Zionist

tolerant Jewish communities.

And they deserve our praise.

That's the first comment.

The other two, I think
extend the points that

Mohammed already made,

the very good points.

The first one concerns
resistance as opposed

to victim worshipping.

You know, even those who are
lamenting the genocide,

who are presenting, no holds bar
the tragedy that befalls people

especially in Gaza,
but not just in Gaza,

in Jenin, in East Jerusalem
and so on, in Bethlehem,

they tend to present
the Palestinians as victims

photograph after photograph
of bodies,

of maimed children and so on.

This is important to show the
world, but there is a danger there

that they are presented
as victims, when what is really

going on, at least that's
how I understand it,

is yes, there are victims, but there is
also something far more important.

There is resistance.

And the spirit of resistance
of the people of Gaza

has not been shattered,
it has not been bent

to the Zionist machine's will.

And that is something
that I don't see, for instance

on Al Jazeera.

Al Jazeera does a lot of good
work, but it doesn't present

the Palestinians as fighters,
as a resistance movement.

And that is something
we need to do.

And my final point concerns
the extent to which

we look at, we have the
courage to look at

what's happening within the
Palestinian community

and the Arab world.

There is nothing that is
more morally and spiritually

depressing than watching
the complicity

of the Palestinian Authority,
especially in the West Bank,

and in East Jerusalem.

Their complicity to the
Israeli war machine.

That has always been the case.

In the Nazi occupation
of my country,

of France, of Poland,
of the bits of Russia that

the Nazis got, the worst,
the worst has been done,

not so much by the Nazis,
but by their collaborators.

It is essential that...

This is not for me,
because I'm not a Palestinian.

This is for Palestinian
comrades to do.

It is important to isolate the
complicity within the various

institutions, especially
in the West Bank

and East Jerusalem.

I know this is a very

sensitive subject because we
need to hammer out a sense

of unity and solidarity
amongst all Palestinians.

But there is complicity
and you know,

there always is complicity.

Whenever there's an
occupation, there are

collaborators, whenever there
is oppression, there are

members of the oppressed
class that participate in the

reproduction of oppression.

Let's not forget that in
South Africa

most of the policemen
were black.

The ones who were attacking
the ANC inspired resistance

in Soweto and so on.

This is the case wherever
there is white settlement,

where there is colonialism,
where there is fascism,

where ever there is Nazism, and
of course, where there is Zionism.

But I think at some point,
we need to talk about it.

Of course, I have to keep my
mouth shut about these things

once I make the suggestion
to talk about this

and allow Palestinians to
lead this conversation.

[Mehran] Thank you, Yanis

and Mohammed, I would
love your reaction to that.

And while we're on the subject
of what can be done,

also, to ask you: this sort of narrative
shift, this space which is opening up

is there anything that activists,
artists, organisers in the West

can do to turn this drip into

more of a stream,
to reframe anti-Zionism

as a legitimate moral
stance as that seems to be.

Those dynamics seem to be
going in that direction

to take advantage of what's
currently happening.

Mohammed.

[Mohammed] Yeah, two things
first of all, about,

Yanis, I think you're absolutely
right about collaborators

and this has been true
in every single colonial

context in the world.

There's always a
comparator class.

I don't think actually it is just
a conversation for Palestinians.

I think it's just a
conversation and I think

in fact it is this.

The genocide has opened
rooms, slight small spaces for

sympathy with Palestinians,
spaces that I think can be

exploited by Palestinians who
are apoliticised or counter political

if they're not straight-up

collaborators or spies with
Israeli regime, who work

with a Liberal world order
that is interested in

maintaining and rehabilitating
Zionism.

And this is why it's important
to kind of always be critical

of identity politics and the
elite capture

that may accompany it

that may allow the elite classes
to take advantage of these niches

in Progressive circles that are
opening up and that are eager

for Palestinian participation
or Palestinian contribution.

The issue of collaboration
within Palestinian society

can be, and this is maybe like a
sensitive topic that we don't

really talk about in English
as much, but you know,

we have no tolerance for spies
in Palestinian society.

But a lot of the time,
those people who are,

who become spies or become
informants are

hungry people, poor people who
whose hunger and poverty

is exploited
by the Israeli regime

or people who have been sexually
blackmailed by the regime.

And of course, we have
no tolerance for them.

I think the fundamental
issues of poverty

and hunger should be addressed
and thus these following

consequences would
be addressed.

But I think so much it is
the collaborators who work

in high tech companies,

the collaborators who work
in Israeli institutions,

the collaborators who
wine and dine

with their Israeli
friends, who have business

deals with them, who kind
of get away with it scot-free,

the collaborators who

under the name of diplomacy,
get to normalize the

occupation, get to normalise
Zionism, who we do not meet

with the same wrath that we
offer the hungry informants.

And of course, it's not
at all a justification

of collaboration or
becoming an informant

or snitching on
your brothers and being

responsible for the
killing of innocents.

This is not at all
an endorsement of it,

but I think they're also...

We need to employ in
our understanding of

collaboration, in our
understanding of

Palestinian society dynamics.

We need to employ a class
lens in the way we

assess these dynamics
because so often it is the

bourgeoisie, the elites, the
people who are highly educated

that get to live in these
narrow and dark nuances

of what they call diplomacy
or what they call professionalism

and what they call
civil society and so on

and so forth, that allow them
these kind of gray spaces to

operate both as collaborators
and as mediators between

us and our oppressors.

And that could be an hour long
conversation, but it is beyond

atrocious to me,
that two years after

a genocide has started and 77
years after settler colonial regime

continues to persist
in our land, we still have

scholars and writers who are
not only eagerly accepting

the invitations to work with
Israeli publications

and Israeli universities, but are
desperate for their approval,

desperate to be with them
and with offering them their likeness.

They offer them also,
legitimacy

by being the Palestinian
token in those groups.

I spoke so much about
this that I forgot

the second question.

[Mehran] It was more about
what can be done,

I mean, what would you say
to the solidarity movement

in the West in terms of how

to exploit this shift
which is happening

and how to reframe anti-Zionism
as something which is a

legitimate stance to have.

[Mohammed] Yeah, thank you.

We don't know what's happening
behind the scenes. right?

We don't know if...

Maybe it's a cynical read,
but we don't know if for example,

the kind of rhetorical
changes, the very, very slight

rhetorical changes in the
official UK, France, German

stances are things that are
rehearsed behind the scenes

and are orchestrated to
allow people to let off

some steam or whatever.

But we should know that with
every slight positive change,

our efforts need to triple.

If they give us an inch,
we should be asking for a lot more.

We should be greedy and
entitled in the kind of

demands we have.

In terms of treating anti-Zionism

as the correct,
upright moral stance,

we should just treat it as such.

I think Zionism and I
think racism at large has

almost a genius feature about
it, that it operates with such

an entitlement and it assumes
that it is the correct moral stance.

It just assumes that is on
the right side of history.

This kind of entitlement
is what allows a group like

UK Lawyers for Israel, for
example, to call and complain

about children's artwork in a
hospital in London and demand

it be removed because it makes
Jewish patients feel unsafe

and have that hospital indeed
obey and remove the artwork.

It is precisely that
entitlement, that boldness of

their racism, that allows them
to render a chant like:

'From the river to the sea' genocidal
and anti-Semitic dog whistle.

Because so much of
world opinion is

not shaped by facts.

It's not shaped by the truth,
it's not shaped by statistics.

It is shaped by what is
compelling

because affect is
socially contagious.

And people see Zionists
appalled at our very righteous

actions and they think
that our very righteous

actions are appalling.

And thus this is something
that we can apply ourselves.

If we treat Zionism as this
kind of debatable, disputable

topic that we can deal with
rationally, then ultimately

it's a debatable, disputable
topic that can be dealt with

rationally as opposed to if
you reject it outright,

if you are bold and courageous
about your stance,

if you have no doubt
and no fear

and no shame about where
you stand in your anti Zionism

then, that is how you
shape public opinion.

I like to use the analogy of
cavities and rotting teeth.

You know, these people in
this, in the West, Zionists,

be the Evangelical Zionists or
Jewish Zionists or whatever,

are not very well in the head.

You know, they're
not very well.

And of course some of
them have fears and

paranoias that are real.

Maybe not
legitimate, but real.

But most of these fears and
paranoias are exploited by

Zionist civil society like the
ADL and so on and so forth,

or their collaborators and
mercenaries in the west to

crack down on Palestinian
speech, to crack down on

Palestinian rights and
so on and so forth.

And their fears are like, you
know, a second holocaust is

coming or Palestinians want
to throw Israelis into the

sea, and so on and so forth.

And instead of ridiculing
these absolutely ridiculous

claims, we give them
the time of day.

We debunk.

We debunk with rationality
and logic what is extremely

irrational and illogical.

And thus we render it
a legitimate argument.

But when you have a child
who has cavities, you

don't reward these
cavities with more candy.

You take them to the dentist.

And this is what we need
to do with Zionists.

We cannot coddle them, we
cannot coddle their fears

and their feelings, no
matter how real they are.

The only answer, intelligible
solution is treating the cause

at the root is abolishing
Zionism, which is equivalent

of taking a child with
cavities to the dentist.

Because the more you're going
to allow these fears, these

fake, pseudo manufactured
fears to fester, the more

you're going to suffocate
your own movement.

There is, again, I've said
this maybe 10 times thus

far on this stream, forgive
me, but there is no room

for nuance with Zionism.

There is no
rehabilitation of Zionism.

That is the enemy, number one.

Thank you, Mohammed.

As we get to the end of our
hour here, Yanis, I'd like

to ask you, I mean, you
have argued in the past that

Europe could choke Israel's
war machine very quickly

if it really wanted to.

While we're on the topic of
what can be done, especially

to urgently address the
humanitarian catastrophe

that is unfolding.

What do you think are the
concrete steps, meaningful

action from governments and
institutions in the West?

[Yanis] Well, that's an
easy one, Mehran.

The answer is in an acronym.

BDS.

Boycott Divest from
Israel and Sanction.

If Europe were prepared to
do that, then even if America

didn't follow suit, then
that would be a major blow.

Major blow.

Don't forget that one third
of munitions are coming from

Germany alone, Leonardo.

The Italian corporation is
providing them with much of

their drone technology or
equipment that they need

for their own Israeli
manufactured drones.

The Danish company Maersk is
handling almost 100% of of

all commercial and military
imports and exports to Israel.

So you know Maersk on its own,
just Maersk, a Danish company,

you know, from a country
that supposedly is

gungho about human rights.

They could just choke
Israel tomorrow.

I don't think the Americans
could have the capacity to

replace the import, export,
transportation services that

Maersk is offering Israel.

Let me give you just
another example.

The European Union common
budget has provided in

recent years 2000 million
euros for research.

2 billion euros.

Right, 2000 million euros.

I'm putting it in 2000 million
to make people, you know,

conceptualise that humongous
sum they provided through

the Horizon project, program,
research and development

monies to the Israeli
military industrial complex.

All right, so even the
announcement that we are

cutting them off as Europeans,
as the European Union would

really put the cat amongst
the pigeons in Tel Aviv

and in Jerusalem and so on.

So there's a lot we can do.

But if I may comment
on what Mohammed said.

Mohammed, you're
absolutely right.

In the same way that
the way I see Zionism

is at a larger scale,

the way that I see
the Golden Dawn Nazi

party here in Greece.

Anybody who says to me that
being anti Golden Dawn is

to be anti Greek, I just
laugh in their face.

Indeed, what I say is
exactly the opposite.

To be Golden Dawn
is to be anti Greek,

similarly to be Zionist,
you're anti Jewish.

Zionism has done an enormous
amount of damage to the Jewish

way of life, to Judaism, to
progressive Jews, to Jews

who do not want to be
associated with a white

settlement project.

But Mohammed, allow me just to
say something which I'm sure

you know, but I'm saying
it for the benefit of

our audience who may not
have heard me say this.

It's something I say often.

Look, Zionism is just a
mere extension of European

white settler ideology.

So, you know, what did the
British do in Australia?

Exactly what the Zionists
want to do to Palestine.

They looked at the
land, they wanted it.

They declared it terra
nullius, that is a land

without the people for
a people without a land.

And that was the first step
towards eradicating the

first nations people,
the Aboriginals.

This is what the British
did in South Africa.

This is what they
did in Kenya.

This is what the
Germans did in Namibia.

This is what the French
almost did in Algeria.

They would have completed
the story, you know,

the project had it
they not been stopped.

But yeah, so in a sense, the
Zionist, what are they, what

are they telling the Europeans
who maintain a psychological

and political and moral
connection to the white

European settlement project?

What they're saying to them
is that, you know, what are we

doing differently to what you
did and if we are going to be

stopped, well, maybe, maybe
some, you know, white farmers

in Australia will have to give
up their land to, you know,

the very few first nations

people who remain alive.

And therefore, you know,
when, take for instance,

Afrikaner, supporter of
apartheid, the very people

that Donald Trump now is
taking under his wing and

he's even giving them asylum
in the United States now.

Right.

I'm not talking about all the
Afrikaners because a lot of

them have completely accepted
the new post apartheid system,

but the ones who didn't
accept and who are remaining

nostalgic of apartheid, every
time they hear any politician,

any citizen talking about
equality in South Africa,

they immediately think, oh,

my God, we have looted that
land from the people of

this part of the earth
and now we may lose it.

So the word
equality, Mohammed.

Well, when people, when we
say we want equality from the

river to the sea, then, you
know, settlers immediately

understand, rightly, that
the land they have stolen

may be taken back from them.

So for them, you know, they.

It's so easy to make
the mental leap and

to say, ah, this is.

They want to genocide us
because they understand that

equality is not consistent
with their continued

occupation of land
that they have stolen.

So, you know, the European
collective guilt resonates

fully with the Zionist logic.

And this is why you're
absolutely right.

We need to sever any
connection between Zionism

and Judaism, between being
a Jew and being a Zionist.

One is as related to the other
as in the case of my country.

You can say that to be a
Greek means you have to

be a Nazi member of the, or
supporter of Golden Dawn.

Thank you, Yanis.

Yes.

Zionism, the last settler
colonial project of our time.

And Mohammed, I would like to
end with you to your reaction

to what Yanis has said and
also any final thoughts

on the discussion
that we've had today.

I think you're
muted, Mohammed.

[Mohammed] Fair, fair.

I think, you know, we can go.

We can go back and forth.

I think the most important
point is that there is

a lot to be done that
hasn't yet been done.

The fact that not a single
Western country has expelled

the Israeli ambassador yet
is astonishing and shocking.

And that is the
absolute bare minimum.

The fact that not one
Israeli embassy has yet to

be closed down is shocking.

And what we are demanding
isn't just that we're

demanding arms embargoes.

We're demanding complete
severing of ties with

the Israeli regime.

We're demanding a complete
not only halt, but

ban of weapons sales

and severance of all
diplomatic, economic

and social and academic
and cultural ties with

the Israeli regime.

That is the only
acceptable solution.

Now, obviously,
a lot of us here

are not in government.

Maybe the FBI guy that watches
my streams is, but most of

us are not in governments.

But there is something to
be done at the local level.

There is something to be
done at the grassroots level.

So many of us still work in
organisations that maintain

somewhat of a cultural
or academic tie with

the Israeli regime.

Some of us still have
supermarkets in our

neighborhoods that
carry settler produce.

And there's something to
be done about those things.

Obviously, each of us has
to do an assessment of their

own power, of their own class
positionality, of their own

risk of what they have on
the line before engaging in

any kind of direct action
or any kind of even

rhetorical action.

But it is important that we
engage in some kind of action.

I think, since we are closing,
I think it's important to

remind myself before I even
remind others that optimism

is a political obligation.

It's not a feeling, you
know, it's not something that

you wait to be bestowed by
God or by whatever divine

power before you begin your
work in organisation or in

shaping public discourse,
and so on and so forth.

But it's your absolute
obligation to be optimistic,

to believe in your decolonial
or anti colonial project and

your liberationist project.

It's an obligation.

One, because we don't have
the luxury of despair.

We don't have the
luxury of cynicism.

And two, because the
resilience of people on the

ground should bring us all
to shame about the kind of

comfort, comfort we live
in and kind of defeatism

we allow ourselves.

This isn't again,
to demoralise anyone

who is listening.

And it is really beautiful
to see so many people on the

right side of history who
continue to be on the right

side of history, who continue
to wage difficult battles and

their own personal spaces.

But it is important for
us to raise the ceiling.

This is ultimately what I
believe in our very limited,

small capacity as individuals,
we can at least raise

the ceiling of what
is permissible.

We can at least say the
quiet part out loud.

We can at least be unafraid
and eager to ruffle people's

feathers, to make racism
unwelcome and uneasy

in our gatherings.

So much of us, particularly
academics and thought leaders,

or so called thought leaders,
are quick to pile on students

when they make quote unquote
rhetorical mistakes or

they say something wrong.

So many of us are quick to
demand politeness

in the suffering of our victims,

demand from our victims

a perfect script when they
talk to television producers.

And I think it's a far more
effective and productive

technique to back our people
and to back our base, no

matter what, to hold, to
hold their back and to always

punch up instead of punching
down, to focus on the

collaborators, to focus
on the people who are in

bed with our murderers focus
on our murderers themselves

and on their mercenaries
rather than focusing on tone

policing and, I don't know,
training our own bases

into some kind of perfect
script and a perfect

way of direct action or
perfect way of boycott.

If anything, I have learned so
much from Zionism, I hate to

admit, and I think the most
valuable lesson has been

that we need to be entitled.

We need to be so entitled
in what we believe in and

what we know to be true.

We cannot cower in the
face of fascism, in

the face of authority.

I'll stop here.

Thank you Mohammed.

Optimism is a
political obligation.

Very, very well said.

Some final comments from
you guys in the chat.

Dr. Moussa says Zionism is
the same idea as apartheid,

seeing another human as
sub human and

Random User says Israel
wants all the land.

That's all it's ever been about
since day one.

They've always seen
Palestinians as below them

since day one.

and Violin, on the note of activism

and what we can do

says: "everyone has
a unique skill set,

use it".

Well,

Thank you so much to our
panel and to you out there.

Thank you Mohammed.

It's been a real treat
having you on our livestream

and there's really
so much to unpack in

everything you've said.

Really appreciate, the time
you've given us here tonight.

If you guys out there would
like to support DiEM25,

we have no big backers.

Then go to diem25.org/support
if you would like to join us

and try and make some of
the things that we've talked

about actually happen,
especially on Palestine,

we're very active,
especially on that front,

then please go to
diem25.org/join.

Thank you again to our panel
and to you out there

and we will see you at the same time,
same place two weeks from now.

Take care.