Yanis Varoufakis and Francesca Albanese on Israel, Palestine and Genocide
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Not Synced[Applause]
-
Not Synced[Yanis] Well, Francesca Albanese, the
United Nations rapporteur on Palestine, -
Not Syncedit is not only a personal
pleasure to be talking to you today, -
Not Syncedbut I want to convey
-
Not Syncedon behalf of our MERA25 friends and
members that are watching this -
Not Syncedtheir appreciation, our joint
appreciation -
Not Syncedfor everything you've been
doing so courageously -
Not Syncedover months and months of
this unfolding genocide, -
Not Syncedwhich will stigmatise humanity
for so many years. -
Not SyncedSo thank you on behalf of everyone,
not just on my behalf. -
Not SyncedLet me ask you, we are
having this conversation now -
Not Syncedless than 24 hours after
the announcement, finally -
Not Syncedof an agreement between
Hamas and Israel, -
Not Syncedto affect a ceasefire.
-
Not SyncedWhat are your feelings about this?
-
Not Synced[Francesca] I don't know, I don't know.
-
Not SyncedReally I'm still processing it,
-
Not SyncedI feel, I feel so happy to see
the Palestinians cheering, -
Not Syncedespecially the kids are looking forward to
the return of a peaceful normalcy. -
Not SyncedThis is on the one hand.
-
Not SyncedI also mean, I also know that for many
Israelis, this is the end of a nightmare. -
Not SyncedBut is it going to be the end of the
nightmare for the Palestinians? -
Not SyncedFor the Palestinians, first of all, we are
talking of the Palestinians in Gaza -
Not Syncedand people saying, I mean, I was listening
to the outgoing president of the US -
Not Syncedsaying, oh, now the Palestinians can
return to their homes, to their life. -
Not SyncedYeah where have you been for the
past 15 months President Biden? -
Not SyncedFor many of them
there are no more houses, -
Not Syncedand for many of them the houses,
whatever, even the rubbles will be empty. -
Not SyncedThe entire, hundreds and hundreds of
families have been exterminated. -
Not SyncedAnd again, the genocide has happened.
-
Not SyncedI don't know how you feel, Yanis,
-
Not Syncedbut somewhat, something, I say that,
but I'm still processing what it is -
Not Syncedsomething has broken this year.
-
Not SyncedAgain, this was not a war;
this was a genocidal war, -
Not Syncedand all these images of all these people,
all these children, -
Not Syncedkilled, amputated, brutalised, starved,
left in flooded tents, frozen to death. -
Not SyncedYeah, they're still here, so what.
-
Not Synced[Yanis] Well, a whole population has
been placed on death row -
Not Syncedfor the first time
since the Second World War. -
Not SyncedBut there is also another dimension,
I just had word from the West Bank -
Not Syncedthat settlers under the cover of the IDF
are attacking villages now. -
Not Syncedas we speak!
-
Not SyncedThis is not a ceasefire in Palestine.
-
Not SyncedIt's a ceasefire only in Gaza
from how I understand it. -
Not SyncedAnd remember, the original
idea of Ariel Sharon -
Not Syncedwas to move out of Gaza
-
Not Syncedin order to annex and complete
the occupation of the West Bank. -
Not SyncedSo from your perspective,
-
Not Syncedthe United Nations perspective,
reporting on Palestine, -
Not Syncedcan you comment on, you know,
what the Gaza ceasefire means -
Not Syncedfor Jerusalem, for the West Bank
more generally. -
Not Synced[Francesca] Yeah, yeah, Yanis,
you need it, -
Not Syncedbecause as I answered the first question,
I said this is only for Gaza, -
Not Syncedthere are some striking features
in the agreement. -
Not SyncedThere is the liberation of, I think
1,700 prisoners; they are all from Gaza. -
Not SyncedBut what about the thousands of people
who have been kidnapped? -
Not SyncedPalestinians who have been kidnapped,
arbitrarily detained, tortured; -
Not Syncedthis includes children. this includes
journalists and teachers, -
Not Syncedprofessors from the West Bank.
-
Not SyncedSince the very beginning
I've written about that. -
Not SyncedThis is why I've said we need to look at
Israel's intent, -
Not Syncedin terms of totality of conduct
-
Not Syncedand totality of crimes against
the totality of the Palestinians -
Not Syncedin the totality of the land that Israel
illegally occupies and claims as its own. -
Not SyncedHave you heard anyone talking about
withdrawal of Israel's presence, -
Not Syncedcivilian and military tangible and
intangible, material and immaterial -
Not Syncedbecause this is what the ICJ has asked,
has ordered in July last year -
Not Syncedand the General Assembly has given
a deadline to Israel is doing that. -
Not SyncedAnd no one is talking about that,
and this is the point: West Bank. -
Not SyncedWest Bank is the place where
the colonial erasure is advancing, -
Not Syncedthrough other means and through other
crimes and through other actors. -
Not SyncedBecause there you have the Israeli army
-
Not Syncedthe settlers, armed settlers,
-
Not Syncedand now you also have the repression
from the Palestinian Authority,. -
Not Synced[Yanis] It was poignant that you said
-
Not Syncedthat not all the Palestinian hostages
are going to be released, -
Not Syncedespecially not the ones from West Bank.
-
Not SyncedAnd by the way, I'm talking about hostages
so that I can be symmetrical. -
Not SyncedThere are Israeli hostages and
there are Palestinian hostages. -
Not SyncedThere are no conflicts or prisoners;
they are hostages; -
Not Syncedthey are the hostages by an army
of occupation. -
Not SyncedMy thought, as we were speaking,
-
Not Syncedmy thoughts wandered in the direction
of the family of Marwan Barghouti, -
Not Syncedwho's been in prison for decades now
-
Not Syncedprecisely because Israel does not
want any leadership to emerge -
Not Syncedwithin the Palestinians that
are representative of the Palestinians -
Not Syncedand which can actually
pave the ground for peace. -
Not Syncedbecause Israel does not want peace.
-
Not SyncedDo you know a white settler colonial
project loaths peace. -
Not SyncedI think that Israel somewhat wants peace
as long as it implies the subjugation -
Not Syncedof the Palestinians as a temporary
measure toward their erasure. -
Not SyncedThe plan of this settler colonial project
as it continues -
Not Syncedis not the integration of or the weakening
of the indigenous Palestinians -
Not Syncedbecause, as non-Jewish, they have no
place, no belonging in the Jewish State, -
Not Syncedthis is very clear, and this is the
problem I have with the state of Israel. -
Not SyncedIt's not the state of Israel per se; it's
how the state of Israel behaves -
Not SyncedThe state of Israel is quintessentially
as an apartheid state, -
Not SyncedI wish it was different.
-
Not SyncedThis has nothing to do with
the Jewish people, -
Not SyncedIt's about the design to subjugate,
oppress, dominate another people -
Not Syncedtill annihilation.
-
Not SyncedAnd unfortunately Yanis, it's happening;
-
Not Syncedit has not happened for one reason,
because the Palestinians do not give up. -
Not SyncedThe Palestinians could have, I mean,
when Rafa was invaded. -
Not SyncedI don't know what you think, but
this is my two cents: -
Not Syncedwhen Rafa was invaded in May
-
Not Syncedtill then the push of the army through
evacuation orders and safe zones -
Not Syncedhad been more southward from the
north to the south. -
Not SyncedWhen Rafa was, when Israel entered Rafa,
it pushed Palestinians east and south -
Not Syncedas much as it could and as it saw
that the Palestinians were not moving, -
Not Syncedand as it saw that the
pressure was mounting -
Not SyncedThen it gave up, and it started pushing.
them to eastward, -
Not Syncedum, sorry. westward, westward, not
eastward, westward toward the sea -
Not Syncedin an area like Forensic Architecture
has documented -
Not Syncedthat is totally, totally unsustainable
unlivable. -
Not SyncedBut the Palestinians have resisted
in the little that remains of their land, -
Not Syncedand still they resist in the little,
I mean, not the little, -
Not Syncedbut in what remains of their land in east
Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank -
Not Syncedor in Israel itself.
-
Not SyncedBut it's very hard, it is, and
if we don't keep the pressure on Israel -
Not Syncedit will be harder and harder.
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Not Synced[Yanis] Well, speaking of pressure and
going back to your contribution -
Not Syncedas a lawyer and a rapporteur for
the United Nations, -
Not Syncedone of the valiant contributions
you've made -
Not Syncedwas - and I've seen you do this in press
conference after press conference -
Not Syncedfrom one country to the other -
-
Not Syncedyou're taking your own views and beliefs
out of the equation, -
Not Syncedand when you talk about genocide
you insist -
Not Syncedthat this is not a matter of opinion.
-
Not SyncedCan you speak to you know, is this
genocide from a legal perspective? -
Not SyncedLook, I was listening to you and as you
were in introducing your question -
Not SyncedI was saying it's something
you put your opinions aside. -
Not SyncedThis is so true you have not even
an idea of how true it is, -
Not Syncedbecause probably you have not
heard me saying that -
Not Syncedbut in the beginning, I was not sure.
-
Not SyncedI mean, I had really superficial back then
understanding of what genocide was -
Not Syncedbecause it's quite a niche.
-
Not SyncedWhen I went back to study what
genocide is from a legal point of view -
Not Syncedand look looking at the cases and
the Juris Prudence -
Not SyncedI realised where my mistake came from.
-
Not SyncedIs that we tend to associate genocide to
extermination and mass killing -
Not Syncedin Rwanda or the Holocaust.
-
Not SyncedBut genocide is something really deeper
-
Not Syncedand in retrospect,
and then I'll tell you why. -
Not SyncedUm, from a legal point of view, I think
that the Palestinian genocide, -
Not Syncedthe genocide of the Palestinians
-
Not Syncedis THE textbook of genocide
-
Not Syncedand as Raz Segal had really
brilliantly put it -
Not Syncedbecause it's what the conceiver of
the term genocide had in mind: -
Not Syncedthe settler colonial genocide, erasure
of a people annihilation of a people. -
Not SyncedWhich doesn't mean killing them all,
-
Not Syncedin fact, in the genocide convention, the
act of, I mean the killing, -
Not Syncedis one of five acts.
-
Not SyncedBut Genocide is a crime constituting,
to be made of, the intent to destroy, -
Not Syncedin all or in part a national, religious,
racial, or national group as such. -
Not SyncedSo the group is targeted as such.
-
Not SyncedAnd what does constitute genocide?
-
Not SyncedSeveral acts of killing members
of the group, -
Not Syncedinflicting several mental
and bodily harm, -
Not Syncedcreating conditions calculated to
bring about the destruction of the group -
Not Syncedor also, not even these are
prevention of birth -
Not Syncedand transfer of children.
-
Not SyncedSo you see there are genocidal acts
-
Not Syncedthat resonate with settler colonial
genocides like in Canada and Australia, -
Not Syncedwhere the genocide was
primarily carried out -
Not Syncedby breaking the bloodline of the
Aboriginal on the one hand, -
Not Syncedand then the First Nations and
Métis, etc. in Canada -
Not Syncedseparating the kids or preventing births.
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Not Synced[Yanis] I'm glad you mentioned
Australia and Canada -
Not Syncedand the United States ofcourse.
-
Not SyncedFirst Nations peoples, Aboriginals
and so on, -
Not Syncedbecause recently I was in a debate
with a passionate defender -
Not Syncedof Israel's right to
implement genocidal policies. -
Not Syncedhe said to me: "Do you agree, Yanis,
that, expecting of Israel -
Not Syncedthings that we don't expect of
the great major Democratic -
Not Syncedstates of the the world, is racist?".
-
Not SyncedI said, we'll, go on
-
Not SyncedAnd he said, "Well, why should
we expect Israel -
Not Syncednot to engage in genocidal practices
-
Not Syncedwhen the whole of the United
States was essentially -
Not Synceda grand genocide, as was
Canada and Australia? ". -
Not SyncedThe point, the vile point is
that what do we expect -
Not Syncedof the Anglosphere in particular
or Germany? -
Not SyncedThink of what Germany did in
Namibia right? -
Not SyncedI mean, or Belgium in the Congo,
they practiced genocide, -
Not Syncedso why should they, if they retain a
kind of allegiance to their past, -
Not Syncedwhy should the representatives of
these states think of Israel -
Not Syncedas doing something out of the
ordinary? -
Not Synced[Francesca] Why Israel should be
held to a different standard -
Not Syncedfrom the other liberal democracies
born from genocides -
Not Syncedor colonial powers that spread genocide,
committed genocide across the world? -
Not SyncedDifferent and several answers.
-
Not SyncedFirst of all because after 1948, the world
enacted a legal framework, -
Not Syncedwhich prohibits genocide.
-
Not SyncedSo what was permitted in 1913 or
in the 15th and 16th century -
Not Syncedis clearly prohibited today, and it's
prohibited to the point -
Not Syncedthat you, genocide to be prevented,
stopped, and punished. -
Not SyncedSo Israel can commit genocide, and
in fact it has committed genocide, -
Not Syncedbut now it will have to face the
consequences. -
Not Synced[Yanis] You report to the
General Secretary, the Secretary General -
Not Syncedof the United Nations, to the
United Nations, -
Not Syncedhow do you, what is your sense of
the manner in which your reports -
Not Syncedand ofcourse, what we see on our
screens every day, is affecting -
Not Syncedthe atmosphere both within
the Security Council -
Not Syncedand the General Assembly of
the United Nations, and finally, -
Not Syncedwould it make any difference
if the United Nations -
Not Syncedadmitted the state
of Palestine formerly in it's ranks? -
Not Synced[Francesca] So what kind of difference
my reports are making? -
Not SyncedWell, my reports to the Human Rights
Council and the General Assembly -
Not Syncedproduce a response that reflects
the state of the world. -
Not SyncedIn the sense there is fierce opposition
by a small number of countries, -
Not Syncedvery, very small, no more than
five, open opposition. -
Not SyncedAnd then the rest is from
the West, of course: -
Not SyncedIsrael, and four of it's best allies,
closest allies. -
Not SyncedThen there is sort of silence,
silent appreciation, -
Not Syncedhappy that I said those things
-
Not Syncedbut not courageous enough or not
enabled enough, -
Not Syncedbecause of lack of representation t
o be able to say that, or just -
Not Syncedfor political convenience,
-
Not Syncedwhich is another good number
of states in the West. -
Not SyncedThe abstainers, and then there is the
absolute majority of member states -
Not Syncedwho support my work, who express
admiration -
Not Syncedand who takes those words,
-
Not Syncedthe recommendations
that I make, seriously. -
Not Synced
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