E104: Is 2025 Europe’s Last Chance? With Yanis Varoufakis and Srećko Horvat

Hello, hello, hello and welcome,

I'm Mehran Khalili.

We are DiEM25 a radical political
movement for Europe.

And this is another live stream
featuring subversive ideas

you won't hear anywhere else.

Tonight, as this is our final
live stream of the year,

we're taking a
look back at 2024.

It's been a year of upheaval and
awakening, a year marked by the rise of

authoritarian politics in Europe, the
worsening tragedies of the war in Ukraine

and the genocide in Gaza, and shocks like
the fall of Assad's government in Syria,

a year of political shifts, the return of
Trump in the US, paralysis in Germany,

martial law in South Korea,
a government collapse in France

and annulled election
in Romania.

So we'll be asking, what are
the themes emerging

from this year of
transformation?

What's the big picture?

Then we'll switch gears and we'll look

ahead to understand where do we go from
here as movements, as activists, what will

be the opportunities and challenges that
are waiting for us in 2025 and will next

year be Europe's last chance for relevance
in the world, for true democracy, for

change. And finally, as every time we do
this, we'll be wrapping up on a lighter

note asking what are the books, films, or
art that have left a mark on us this year

and which might give us all solace and
inspiration as we head into the next one?

So I can think of two no better people to
have this discussion with than our own

Yanis Varoufakis. Of course Yanis.

And joining us for the first time in a
while, our co-founder at DiEM25, the

writer and philosopher Srecko Horvat.

Welcome back to you, Srećko.

And of course, you out there, you watching
us on YouTube.

Our audience will be taking your questions
comments, suggestions throughout, so

please keep them coming.

Let's jump right in. Let's get started
with Yanis.

Well thank you Marianne. It's a great
pleasure in this bleakest of times to be

sharing plasma again with Srećko Because
many of you won't probably won't know

that. But since you are tuned in to DiEM25
DiEM25 started when Sarah and I were

having coffee in Berlin in the summer of
2015 or September of 2015, and the idea

came primarily from him.

We didn't even know we were going to call
it DiEM25 at the moment. So anyway, to cut

a long story short I think this is the
right time for a reunion just before 2025,

because that 25, which is attached to the
word diem, as in carpe diem came up when

we were asking ourselves when we were
discussing ways of turning Europe into a

progressive project as opposed to a
regressive one.

How long do we have as Europeans?

Not as Ukrainians, but as Europeans?

How long do Europeans have to fix the EU
to turn it around to stop its

fragmentation, disintegration, and descent
into the hell in which it has become.

And you know, this was 2015 and off the
cuff.

I think I answered the question. I said,
well, maybe a decade. Ten years. So 15

plus ten, 25.

And now 2025 is coming.

And I'm, I'm, I'm just going to pre-empt
my answer.

I'm going to try to review to 2024 before
we move to to 2025.

But let me preview my answer to man's
question.

Is 2025 Europe's last chance?

No, I don't think so. That last chance was
2019, the European Parliament elections

that I contested on purpose, symbolically
in Germany to make a point.

And we failed.

Not us, just as dreamers, as Yanis, but as
Europeans.

We failed and we missed the chance. But
allow me to come back to this when I reach

the point when Europe deserves to be
discussed because it doesn't deserve to be

topic number one.

When we are reviewing 2024 because the
historian of the future is going to look

back to 2024, and they will only be one
word that will dominate the historic

analysis of 2024.

And that word is Palestine, because there
is a genocide which is unfolding as we

speak this very moment, as we are here in
front of you, in YouTube, wherever you

are. There are tens of thousands of tens
of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands

of starving children, many of them maimed,
many of them without parents or with dead

parents, at least one of them who are
going hungry for the third consecutive,

fourth consecutive night without having
eaten anything, without water to drink or

to wash their face, let alone their
wounds. This is the reality as we speak.

And it's been the reality every day for,
you know, from the beginning and actually

before the beginning of 2024.

I think also the historian of the future
is going to look back to the 7th of

October, which is, of course a pivotal
moment because it was the moment when the

fence fencing in the Palestinians in Gaza
was attacked by Hamas militants, and then

you had the killings of the Israelis, and
then, of course, all hell broke loose. But

I think the the historian of the future is
going to look at the choice that I'm not

going to I'm not going to talk about Hamas
now, but the choice that Palestinian

resistance fighters had before the 7th of
October.

And it was a very stark choice, silent,
slow death under the conditions of the

concentration camp, the open concentration
camp that was Gaza, remember, 60% of

children were malnourished before the 7th
of October 2023, because Israel was

effectively placing a whole population
under siege and constantly silently

strangling them through that embargo and
occasionally bombing them.

Of course, right in September of 2023,
before the October 7th events there were

bombardments. Children were killed.

So please don't don't let me start there.

On those who begin, who begin their story
on the 7th of October, as if the 6th of

October was a peaceful and and tranquil
and a state of cohabitation between two

neighboring states.

Gaza is not a state. It is a concentration
camp in which people have been

incarcerated since 1948.

So the Palestinians had a choice.
Remember, before the 7th of October,

nobody talked about Palestine, not even
us. Diem25. We talked occasionally, but

not very often. We talk more about Europe.
We talked about Ukraine. We talked about a

number of things, very important issues,
but not about Palestine. And the

Palestinians were effectively abandoned by
the whole world, especially by the Arab

world. Remember, Donald Trump's great
success in his first term was to sign the

or to instigate the so-called Abraham
Accords, where essentially a whole swathe

of Arab states, including the United Arab
Emirates, Morocco and others, along with

Egypt, made peace with Israel without a
word about the Palestinians. Effectively,

the Palestinians were told, we will let
you perish. Just keep quiet and die slowly

and silently.

Don't bother us. Just die out of sight,
out of mind for the rest of the world.

So that's why I'm saying that the
Palestinians had a choice. Either allow

themselves to die silently, slowly, by not
resisting or breaking out.

Because that was what the 7th of October
was. It was a breakout. And time and again

I have incurred the wrath of the Zionists
and the German state in particular, by

saying that the act of resistance, the act
of bringing down that fence of the

concentration camp, was not a right of the
Palestinian resistance fighters, but it

was a duty at the same time.

Any fighter, whether they are an Israeli
soldier or a Palestinian militant who

touches touches, touches the hair of a
civilian who abducts people.

They are committing war crimes. So that
was our original position as DiEM25. Now,

since then the whole of the Palestinian
people have been placed on death row.

The West has supported Israel in taking
whole people and placing it on death row.

This is in Gaza.

If you are not dead already, you are on
death row tomorrow morning.

There is a strong probability that you
will not live or that you will not have a

leg or an arm and then you will die in six
months later. Out of sight, out of mind. I

think that, you know, looking back to
2024, also, the historian of the future is

going to pinpoint as a very significant
moment the South African beautifully

phrased case at the International Criminal
Court.

Sorry, the International Court of Justice
against Israel that this was a a central

point, one of the rare rays of light, but
these rays of light were not allowed to

penetrate in the European Union or, of
course, in Australia or in Canada or the

United States, because Zionism has become
the official ideology of Western

imperialism. Zionism, especially in
Germany, where they don't feel comfortable

due to the Holocaust. And they are right
not to feel comfortable about feeling

nationalistic and then expressing their
nationalism. So in Germany, they have

replaced German nationalism with Zionism.

It's really very simple. Which, by the
way, has nothing to do with the Jews.

Zionism has nothing to do with the Jews.
There are so many anti-Semitic Zionists

and so many Jews who are anti-Zionist.

You just need to state that to make the
case. And so remember, in April, DiEM25,

along with our friends and comrades in the
organization, the splendid organization,

German Jewish organization a Jewish voice
for a just peace in the Middle East.

We put together a Congress to discuss a
just peace in the Middle East and the

German state brought down upon us the full
weight of its authoritarianism.

They banned me from entering the country.
They banned me from even speaking through

zoom to anyone in Germany, which is a joke
and a half, because you can't even do that

even if you try.

Anyway, I'm in court.

I've taken the German authorities to
court, but I'm not going to say more on

that. Another pivotal moment in the
Palestinian tragedy during 2024 was the

decision by the International Court of
Justice, which ruled to its credit that

the occupation, the continuing occupation
of East Jerusalem, of the West Bank and of

Gaza by Israel is illegal and ordered the
Israeli state to move back to its pre 1967

borders. And how did Israel respond?

By convening the Knesset, the Israeli
parliament, where there was a vote, I

think it was 75 five, something like that
crushing majority, essentially binning the

verdict of the International Court of
Justice.

How did they do that? By proclaiming they
will never be a Palestinian state anywhere

in the occupied territories, and that
these occupied territories were the land

of Israel, effectively the Israeli
parliament, not just the government, but

the crushing majority of members of
parliament in the Knesset, told the

international community, we are not paying
any attention to what you have to say.

International law is none of our business.

Since then, we have an interesting
dialectical paradox, almost Hegelian

Srećko. On the one hand, you have the
complete victory of the Israeli armed

forces. They have pulverized Gaza.

They are supporting the the settlers in
their ethnic cleansing of West Bank.

They are taking over the houses of
Palestinians in East Jerusalem without. I

mean, there is resistance to the great
credit of the Palestinian people in Gaza,

in East Jerusalem, in the West Bank. But
the ironclad IDF, the Israeli army has

complete control.

The attacks on in south Lebanon,
effectively the mass killings, the mass

murder in south Lebanon in order to defeat
Hezbollah.

Well, they won that war, too.

There has been a ceasefire.

There's been an armistice, so to speak.
But Hezbollah had to decouple its own

fight from the fight of the of the
Palestinians in Gaza.

And that is a major victory for Netanyahu.
So you have let's not forget, the recent

collapse of the Assad regime, which while
Syrians, the majority of Syrians have have

celebrated because Assad was a
bloodstained tyrant.

At the same time, it's a major victory for
Israel and the United States.

It is another defeat for the Palestinians
because whatever support they got, they

got through Iran and Syria and Hezbollah.

There is no doubt about that. So why am I
saying this, that this is a Hegelian kind

of dialectical paradox? Because on the one
hand, you have the complete control, but

at the same time, as our friend Ilan Pappe
explains, and he explains this quite

nicely, the more successful militarily
Israel is, the less reproducible is

Israeli society, because increasingly
Israel itself is being taken over by the

genocide, genocidal maniacs who are in
control of the government and not the

government, but the majority of the
opposition as well.

So if you are a a liberal, civilized
Israeli, even if you support generally the

aims of Israel's annexation of of the
lands of the Palestinians?

You can't really live in Israel under the
Smotrich's and the ben-gvirs, those

utterly fascistic individuals that have
dominated the Israeli executive.

So this is, you see, where the dialectics
come.

I spoke about Syria just briefly.

In the last few days, I've been involved
in a running debate, let's put it

politely, with supporters of the
Palestinians who are lambasting me for

feeling, for allowing myself a moment of
joy at the fall of Assad, the tyrant, as I

called him. My message to them who I was
want accusing me of taking the side the

side of the imperialists of Israel, of the
United States. Is that. To think that by

supporting tyrannical figures like Assad
or before him, Saddam Hussein, because

he's an enemy of our imperialist enemy,
that you are being an imperialist. Think

again. Because to fight imperialism and
win in the long run, we must win the

hearts and minds of minds of people. And
you cannot do that by supporting tyrants

whom the people who live under them
loathe, and to support them just because

they are enemies of our enemies. And I've
been accused of being an idealistic

somebody recently, a few hours ago on
Twitter said, but Yanis, this is very

idealistic of you.

You have to be very pragmatic.

Do I do I need to be pragmatic?

Why do you think I dedicate most of my day
on the Palestinian cause?

What do I have to be pragmatic about
there? Do I have something to gain? Do I

gain anything by supporting a cause which
is essentially Labelling anyone in the

West who supports that cause an
anti-Semite and enemy of Western

civilisation. The only reason why I'm
supporting the Palestinians, the only

reason why I'm a lefty, the only reason
why I didn't sign the MoU when I was

forced to do that. I was threatened to do
that by the troika of lenders of Greece is

because of idealism.

It's because of ideology. If we ditch
ideology as anti-imperialist, what do we

have? It was an ideology that in the end
won for the Viet Cong the fight against

the American imperialists in Vietnam. It
is ideology which is behind every

revolution that ever succeeds. It is not
cost benefit analysis, folks. Anyway so

just to wrap up the Palestinian issue,
which was which is the main thing I'm

going to speak about here today, tonight,
the Palestinian people on the 7th of

October, the fighters decided a very
simple made a very simple decision.

They wouldn't allow themselves to go
silently into the good night.

They had the choice. As I said before,
between a slow, silent extinction and a

big bang resistance, and they chose the
latter. And now, as a result of that, we

have the International Criminal Court
indicting Netanyahu. This is not to be

scoffed at, even though the ICC cannot
arrest Netanyahu.

The fact that Netanyahu cannot easily
travel to Paris, to London, to Berlin

without creating a major crisis,
ideological crisis, legal crisis in those

countries, they will have to decide
whether to arrest him or to ditch the

international rules based order, which
supposedly they wax lyrical about. That is

a major success.

We must not forget that, and the fact that
we have the internal contradictions within

Israeli society, which I am sure that at
some point will lead to a change of heart

amongst the majority of the population in
Israel. Call me an idealist again. I don't

mind turning to Europe now.

I'll be brief here.

Europe is suffering the costs and the
perils of the legacy of denial.

For 15, 20 years now, we have not been
investing in our industry, in our society,

in our health, in our education. Because
of the logic, after the crisis of 2008, of

austerity for the many and money printing
for the very few, because when you have

austerity for the many, the few who get
the money that the central bank prints get

the money, but they don't invest because
they can see that the very many have no

money. So why invest in goods and services
that many don't can't afford to buy? So

what do the rich do with the money that
the central bank prints on their behalf?

They buy assets, houses.

House prices go up, shares share prices go
up, but no investment. And folks, the

result of that was after 15 years of not
investing. Guess what happened? Europe's

industries collapsing. The whole of the
German industrial model, which was such a

great success story. You know what it
resembles now that do the older amongst

you remember those electric type
typewriters of the 1970s like Olivetti?

There were some really nice typewriters,
electric ones where they had it used. They

used to have this ball that would rotate
and you type and it would go click, click,

click, click, click. It was actually quite
nice. Well then the PC came.

These electric Olivetti typewriters were
dead in the water.

No reduction in the wages of the people
making those Olivetti electric

typewriters. No subsidy by the state would
have saved them.

The PC had come.

Well, similarly, folks, the electric car
has come and Catl and BYD batteries have

come. We have new forms of turning wind
energy into green hydrogen that was

developed in China, in the United States.

You know what? Europe has not invested any
of these things. We are now in the

situation where Olivetti was with its
electric type typewriters in the 1970s.

So we had as DiEM25, we we had a policy
which we called the the European Green New

Deal, the Green New Deal for Europe. We
ran Srećko and I and others from DiEM25.

We ran in 7 or 8 countries in 2019.

It was a magnificent programme. I have no
doubt that had it been implemented Europe

now would not be in these dire straits.
But it wasn't implemented and we missed a

technological revolution. And the result
is even the powers that be that wax

lyrical about political consolidation and
you know, common investment programs and

so on. Well, they don't even talk about
it. What do they talk about now as the

engine of growth of Europe, the defence,
the defence industry, the arms trade, they

are talking about turning the European
Union into a European war Union.

They want an iron dome, Israel style.

This, of course, that means American
missiles, right? There will be no

development in this country. Then
recently, since we are going through a

review of 2024.

Mario Draghi, my arch enemy from 2025 to
2015, with whom I clashed mercilessly and

who shut down the Greek banks in order to
essentially blackmail the Greek people, to

accept universal austerity to the power of
n this gentleman.

You know what happens with these people
when they move away from their positions

of power? Then they become social
democrats. So he came up with a with a

report which essentially copied the 2019
DiEM25 Green New Deal for Europe.

Remember, we were saying that there must
be an investment fund that must be funded

to the tune of 5% of European income.

Well, that's what he says too, now. But of
course, it's dead in the water.

The Draghi report, which cost hundreds of
thousands, if not millions of euros, was

accepted by Ursula von der Leyen, the half
crazy president of the European

Commission, the warmonger. She thanked
him, she kissed him, she paid him for the

report and then immediately put it in the
bin, because this Europe is not capable of

doing anything of what we were saying back
in 2019.

And the result, of course, is the
political fragmentation. Why do you think

there is no government in Germany or
France as we speak? Because of that?

Because if the foundation, the economic
foundation of a primarily economic union

and monetary union like the European Union
collapses, that the politics on top of it

collapse as well.

Another great development in 2024, of
course, is Donald Trump.

We've already had the program here. So I
will ask you to go and listen to that. I

won't repeat too much, but just briefly
epigrammatic Dramatically.

Trump won for a very simple reason, folks.

The Democrats, Biden, Kamala, that whole
motley of particularly interesting

idiots. They were telling the American
people, you know, the American working

class that they've never had it so good.
The American people were telling them, no,

that's not true. We can't make ends meet.

We are bankrupt.

We can't afford a house.

We can't afford to put groceries in our
basket in the supermarket.

We cannot afford to put petrol in our car.

And in the United States, you don't have a
car. You're dead. You can't go anywhere

with this urban sprawl and the lack of
public transport and so on.

So, you know, Trump looked at these people
and said, I feel your pain.

There is carnage in America.

There is a lot of discontent.

I am your man.

Who do you think they voted for? They
voted for Trump. I think there are another

two things that I need to say about Trump.
Trump promised to to to to, to to end the

Ukrainian war in 24 hours.

I'm pleased that there is a president of
the United States, even if he doesn't mean

it, even if he's a hypocrite, a fascist, a
misogynist, and all those things that

Trump is who wants to end a war,
especially a war which is a complete dead

end? It's just a meat grinder killing
young men from Russia, from Ukraine, and

also civilians for no reason.

I mean, it's nothing is happening. There
will be no victory either on the one side

or the other. So it's good that he is
promising that. But I don't think he can

deliver this peace and he can't really
deliver it because Putin doesn't want to

end the war. He wants to keep grinding
away, taking one village after the other,

and he will set conditions for a peace
that Trump will not be able to accept

without being overthrown by his own
regime, even by his own Trumpist

Republican regime. That's my my feeling.

And then finally, his great Waterloo,
however, will be the promise he made to

the American working class to look after
them, to bring industry back to the United

States by introducing slapping huge
tariffs on imports from Europe and

primarily from China, but from Europe as
well, and therefore creating circumstances

for industry to return to the United
States. He will not succeed in doing that,

because, remember, his number one priority
is the stock exchange, the financiers and

the real estate. He's a real estate agent.
That's what he is personally. Okay. And

real estate and the stock exchange in the
United States only does. Well, as long as

the Chinese and the Germans have a trade
surplus with the United States, because

that surplus gives them the money that
then they take to the New York Stock

Exchange and to Miami and to California
and to New York to buy real estate.

Some comrades, some friends, some
progressives put a lot of stock in the

developments with the BRICs.

Remember the BRICs, Brazil, Russia, India,
China, South Africa and a whole gamut of

other countries that are now joining.
There was an interesting meeting in Russia

of the BRICs representatives who discussed
ways of creating a system of payments and

actually have instituted it. Now it's up
and running. Very interesting.

Technologically, it uses blockchain as
well. For those of you who are interested

in blockchain technology that allows them
to trade with one another and one another

in their own currencies, bypassing the
dollar system and therefore the sanctions.

Countries like South Africa, Saudi Arabia
and the United Arab Emirates are also

interested in the BRICs because, you know,
they don't want to put all their eggs in

the American dollar basket.

However, it is a mistake to think of the
BRICs as an alternative Soviet Union or

Warsaw Pact that is going to create checks
and balances for American hegemony.

It is a mistake to think of it that way.
Don't forget that India and China are

almost at war within the BRICs.

Don't forget that the United States is
pushing Apple to shift its factories

producing we just had a little earthquake
here in Athens, but I think everything's

okay, right?

Mehran. Yeah.

Well, the ground shakes when Diem does its
live stream.

So Washington is pushing Apple to shift
its production lines from from from China

to, to India.

So you can see there is a lot of
antagonism within the BRICs, so there's no

way there's ever going to be a kind of
geostrategic alliance. What they have, the

common interest that binds them together
is they don't want to be under the thumb

of the Federal Reserve, every transaction
to be ruled over by the American central

bank or the American government. This is
what they have in common. But this is not

enough. It is not enough in particular,
because China itself is facing its own

dilemma. Does China want to replace the
American dollar with a one?

Not yet.

Don't forget that Chinese capitalists who
sell, let's say, aluminium that is

produced in Shenzhen to California.

They rely on the American dollar and the
exorbitant privilege of the United States

to run a large trade deficit, because the
trade deficit of the United States is what

allows these Chinese capitalists to sell
aluminium to a Californian firm. And his

money comes in dollars, and he invests in
real estate in Miami or in California, or

in New York, or in American debt for that
matter. Does he want to see the demise of

the dollar? No, because his savings are in
dollars. In dollars. It's not clear that

the Chinese Communist Party, for instance,
wants to clash with the Chinese

capitalists. But even if he does, then
China has to accept the challenge of

playing the role within the BRICs that the
United States played after the Second

World War in the Bretton Woods system. And
this is not something that China does. You

know, China does not want to be hegemonic.
China wants to trade with everyone. It

wants, you know, free trade routes. It
wants to be able to go invest here, there

and everywhere. It doesn't want to run a
large part of the world.

This is not a decision that the Chinese
Communist Party has made. And finally, to

wrap up this long soliloquy, remember the
climate catastrophe.

We have forgotten about it because we have
wars. We have genocide. We are

sidetracked. But the world is moving
headlong.

The world, not the world.

Humanity. Our species is moving
straightforwardly, head on towards our

extinction. The only way of stopping it
would have been a tripartite agreement on

decarbonisation between the United States,
China and the European Union. The European

Union doesn't exist. It has rendered
itself obsolete.

The United States has Trump, who doesn't
believe in climate change. So we are left

only with China. China is producing the
bulk of all the decarbonisation

technologies in the world, but it can't do
it alone.

In the context of everything that I've
said, and I hope I haven't darkened your

soul too much.

But if we are going to review 2024,
Honestly, we can't beat about the bush and

we can't offer false hope and fake
optimism.

But here comes the hope.

We're here.

We're a small movement.

Diem25. We started it in that cafeteria.

Srećko and I in 2015in Berlin.

But now we are all together.

We have tens of thousands of people. Our
comrades are out in the streets of Germany

as we speak, gathering signatures.

If you live in Germany, sign for 25 to
become a registered party for the

forthcoming federal election.

We have created a progressive
international. We are very far away from

even dreaming of success.

But as long as we are fighting, there is
hope.

Hope without optimism.

Right? Srećko. Srećko.

Let's bring you in.

Go for it. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks. Yanis.
It's a nice finish finale with this hope

without optimism, which is, of course, a
phrase which comes from Terry Eagleton.

And there is nothing which I hate more
than optimism. But on the other hand, also

pessimism. So I, I mean, Gramsci put it
nicely, I don't want to repeat it but to

come to the gist of the matter and what
you said, and I will refer to some things

you said because I think definitely if we
think about 2024 these are the most

important defining moments, not just of
our present, but for the future.

And I think we have to put it in the
context of a historical sequence which I

think started after the financial crisis
and then with the so-called Arab Spring

you know, Tunisia, Egypt and other
countries and the huge hope and optimism,

if you want what will happen out of this?
That was also the years of Occupy Wall

Street. And then later, of course, your
own experience with Syriza at the

referendum in Greece and so on. What we
are witnessing now, I think, is you said

it correctly, a total triumph of the axis
between Israel, United States and Turkey.

And it's a triumph which kind of concludes
this historical sequence, which in a way

started 2010, 2011, when there was still
hope that some progressive revolution

might take place and some sort of
revolutions took place. But we have seen

very quickly what happened to Egypt after
Mubarak with the Muslim Brotherhood not to

mention Libya. And what happened to Libya
after the intervention and after Gaddafi,

when we got, like hundreds of Gaddafi's
and a continuous civil war in Libya.

So in this sense, yes, on the one hand,
it's a triumph of Washington and Israel

and then Erdogan and some other players.

I think at least 20 to 30 different
geopolitical players are at the moment

involved in that region already in various
ways.

And on the other hand, it also proves the
irrelevance of the European, European

Union. You know, what Macron and other
leaders were doing just at the time of

when the rebels were taking over Syria and
Damascus.

Well, they gathered at Notre Dame to open
the church, which unfortunately was caught

in fire, I think, five years ago or
something. And you could have seen just by

looking at their faces, at their gesture,
at their body language in which way?

They just were proving more and more their
own irrelevance.

You already said it about the French
government. That was just at that moment.

So Macron is definitely, definitely not
that powerful as he was or as he wishes to

be. And at the same time, you could have
seen in which way other political leaders

from all across Europe are react towards.

On the one hand, Donald Trump and now a
new addition in 2004, 2024 and especially

in 2025, Elon Musk and more and more
often, Elon Musk with his son on his

shoulders which in a way you it describes,
embodies perfectly the situation in which

we are in which businessmen become
politicians and in which billionaires are

now the ones who actually influence
politics.

You know, this is what you talk about.
Yanis in techno feudalism.

I mean, this is the best embodiment of it.
Trump and Elon Musk and in which way they

actually negotiate already with European
leaders from Giorgia meloni to now, you

know, who was just yesterday, yesterday at
Trump's villa in the United States, Viktor

Orban. You know, at the same time, while
all of this what we are talking about is

happening in the world. Palestine, Syria.

Viktor Orban is in the United States
meeting Donald Trump, Elon Musk and

already working on the fascist
international, if you want to put it like

that. So at the same time, while it was a
triumph of the transatlantic block and

imperialism 20, 2020, you know, the last
year, 2024 I think was also besides

proving the irrelevance of the European
Union at the same time, also a huge

setback huge disruption in the so-called
left progressive movements thinking

political parties, if you want. At the
same time you could have seen also, I

think if we speak about the establishment
parties you could have seen that all the

masks have fallen down from the so-called
green parties are.

Just look at the German Greens. Just you
know the letter to Jill Stein, for

instance, or more recently, what is
happening at the periphery of the European

Union in in Serbia you know that a while
ago they found the biggest reserve of

lithium anywhere in Europe.

They're at the periphery of the EU.

A little problem for them, as usual, is
that there is an autocrat in power,

Aleksandar Vucic.

But that didn't stop Olaf Schultz
yesterday welcoming Aleksandar Vucic in

Germany and talking further with him.

In which way the German automobile
industry, auto industry would use the

lithium mines in Serbia to extract further
lithium so that the middle class in

Germany can drive green cars and that they
can the Green Party speak of a Green Deal

or of a transition towards a Green Deal.

What we have seen in 2024 last year, and
what I think we will see more and more in

the next year, is that on the opposite we
are not nowhere near we are actually even

further away from solving or even
approaching the climate crisis, which is

the biggest crisis in the of the planet,
and not just the future of humanity, but

also many other species which are already
going extinct.

Because what we can see now with the
situation in Syria is that what is coming

back is, you know, good old I'm saying it
in a sarcastic way minerals and you know,

for instance if you look at the
interventions in Libya, in Iraq, in Syria,

it was always about oil, among other
things.

Of course, it was also if you take the
case of Libya, the problem was also

unification of Africa.

Of course. Whatever we can think of
Gaddafi.

If you look also now at the current
situation in Syria, very quickly, you will

also have the other hand come to pipeline
politics.

You know, one pipeline which was Russia
backed from Iran through through Iraq to

Syria and then further to Europe with gas
which would equip European households

which of course, no one among the
establishment in the EU wants.

And now there is a clearing. There is a
perfect situation. That's why I'm calling

it a triumph. Triumph in many ways for
this transatlantic bloc, plus Israel,

which was always part of it is the other
pipeline which is supposed to go and

that's a long dream, at least for a decade
or even longer from Qatar via Iraq and

Syria and then Turkey.

So this space is now open.

What is temporarily blocked is something
what I think the EU establishment is

trying to block that's I think, their
main, agenda.

One of the main fears of the EU
establishment is definitely Eurasian

integration. So I mean, Russia and Ukraine
is part of this story, but I think what

you can see very visibly and clearly is
that Syria and Iran are definitely a part

of this story because Iran and all these
countries are, to put it bluntly, in the

middle of China and Europe.

And now a block is created, a kind of
border which prevents the further Eurasian

integration which is in a way,
unstoppable.

If you look at China, of course. So I
think what the situation in Syria now

reveals is of course on the one hand,
imperialism which is as always as it

always was, coupled with capitalism the
so-called West.

What we can see these days is more afraid,
as it always was of genuine democracy,

then it is afraid of jihadists or Islamic
fundamentalists.

And that's what's happening now in Syria.
But that was also what was happening in

Iran. You know, remember Mosaddeq the
prime minister of Iran, who was overthrown

by the British secret service and with the
help of the CIA. Why? Because the Brits

wanted the wanted the oil, but Mosaddeq
wanted to nationalize it.

And then in the next decade, you had the
Shah, which was supported by the US. But

actually all these interventions and the
United States meddling inside of Iran

created Khomeini.

And if you look at Iran today, you will
see you will not find a secular country.

If you look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria.

I happen to be in Syria, I think just
before the Arab Spring. And I saw it with

my own eyes. These were all secular
countries.

I mean, even during Assad. And I have
also, like you, Yanis all the worst words

against Assad.

You know, I think at the same time. We
must, we can and we must be against Assad

or people like him, including Putin,
including Gaddafi.

And at the same time against imperialism.

I think this is not either or. I think
with the situation in Syria, what we can

clearly see is the consequences of
imperialism.

Assad is also a consequence of it.

But you know, as someone who comes from
socialist Yugoslavia who was here during a

bloody war I remember very well in which
way the so-called international left

supported Slobodan Milosevic.

You know, why did they support him? They
supported him because they thought

Milosevic is an anti-imperialist player.

And that's far from the truth.

Very far from the truth.

In the same way you can see today that,
you know, Schultz and those people, you

know, they would rather see Vucic in power
for the next ten years than they would

they would want to see democracy in
Serbia.

Because if there was true democracy in
Serbia, then the people would decide, we

don't want German companies to take all
the lithium out of our country.

And actually, what is happening now at the
periphery of the EU is the most massive

protest you can imagine in the. In Europe
today.

Exactly. In Serbia, where you have not
just hundreds of protests, public protests

on the streets, but in the last week you
actually have dozens of blockades,

occupations of faculties, universities,
courts.

You even have plenums councils.

I mean, all of this, which we also had in
Croatia 15 years ago with occupations and

faculties, what you had at Occupy Wall
Street and so on. So at the same time

there is there is resistance also within
the EU.

What I expect of.

But we are still at 20, 24 will come to
2025 to come back a bit, just again to to

to the EU.

What we can also see is that on the one
hand, of course, it's the further

irrelevance of the European Union. But on
the other hand, I think it's the it's the

further slide into not just right wing
politics, but full blown fascism which is

now operating on a level of diplomacy, you
know like a nice soft fascism, if you

want, like, like, just remember what
happened with this deal between Giorgia

meloni and Albania.

So basically, now Italy has built a
concentration camp for 30, 40,000 refugees

in Albania.

So basically, you have an outsourcing of
the of the migrants at the same time with

the Syrian crisis and, and and the war I
mean, many the Austrian government, the

German government, many EU governments are
now talking about openly talking about

repatriation and deportations of Syrian
refugees, millions of them who arrived

after the war in 2000 11.

So basically, they're sending them back
to, use your words. Yanis to the death row

in a way. And what we will see now is that
this situation will just progress.

So to, to to slowly conclude, I think
what, what the last year but also the last

years has have proven is that we are in a
state of, I would characterize it at that

as that of a total war total war in the
sense of that production and destruction

become the same you know, at the same time
to, to, to put it bluntly, at the same

time, when Israel is bombing military
facilities and weapons in Syria at the

same time, EU cargo ships under various
flags are transporting weapons to Israel.

So at the same at the same time, you have
this destruction of weapons, at the same

time, you have the production and and
transmission of weapons from the west of

the Mediterranean to the east of the
Mediterranean. Then you have Keir Starmer

on Cyprus. British troops on Cyprus.

Nato on Cyprus.

And at the same time, that's why I'm
saying it's it's a sort of total war where

production and destruction become the
same. From the east to the west of the

Mediterranean, you have another wave,
which is not the, the, the transmission of

arms, but it's people fleeing the wars
which were produced by imperialism and the

role which EU has in it.

So I think in that sense we are talking
about a total war, which if we come back,

you mentioned is already to Trump.

But I think this Notre Dame and all these
kind of events are also very interesting

from a semiotic perspective.

Because I think more and more we are not
just in a total war when it comes to the

economy, which is now more and more
focused or totally focused on on war

production, but we are more and more in a
in a in a state of war when it comes to

the semiosphere, when it comes to
semiosphere as the sphere of signs.

When it comes to this, I see you on a
screen, you see me on a screen. And the

power of cloud capital, if I if I may use
your words Yanis the power of Silicon

Valley and in which way it captured almost
everything.

You know, our communication, our emotions.

Just think of Grindr, Tinder, social
dating apps now coupled with AI.

So basically we are in a total war also in
the semiosphere.

So in that sense, it's not any more
important what Trump will do.

Now. I'm slowly coming to 2025 with the
economy in the United States.

I think what is becoming more and more
important. And by this, I don't say that,

that I don't recognize and I don't fight
against the real plight of the working

class. But what is more and more becoming
important, I think, is perception,

reality, the question of reality. I mean,
Jean Baudrillard was very quickly, in the

last 20 years, dismissed by, by radical
theory and leftists.

But I think Jean Baudrillard had a good
point when he talked about simulation and

in which way there is actually this kind
of simulation is becoming our new reality.

You know what Trump does, in which way he
moves the feast together with Macron and

so on. It changes the perception of
people.

And that's, you know, if you go back to
the mastermind behind it, Steve Bannon he

clearly understood, you know, the power of
Facebook already, the power of Silicon

Valley companies.

And what I think we will see even more and
more in 2025 is the further empowerment of

oligopolies of the billionaires, who are
mainly in the tech sector, who are now

coupled with, you know, not just Donald
Trump, but Javier Melaye in Argentina,

Viktor Orban, Giorgia meloni all the
people who are responsible also for the

irrelevance of the EU, and also for the
participation of the EU in war crimes and

genocide. So that's all for me.

Also very optimistic.

Thank you. That was 2024.

What can I do? Well I was just going to
say I mean it does sound very bleak, but

it was a very bleak year. And just to I
mean, Yanis talked about Gaza and children

in Gaza, just to put some, some stats
there on that.

It's Gaza between October 7th and three
days ago, at least 17,492 children have

been killed in Gaza. That equates to
approximately one in every 65 children in

the Gaza Strip.

So horrendous open wound there.

And and of course, all the other things
you mentioned do paint a very bleak

picture. A couple of quick comments from
the chat and questions.

Keith Sutton Jones notes that Russia has
just advised all Russian citizens to leave

the USA. I checked that out.

It's not exactly to leave the USA, but it
says that they shouldn't.

They advise Russian citizens not to visit
the United States. Balbo says in my view,

a reformed federal Europe would be best,
but that is a fantasy thought anyway.

Could you see that? How could you see that
happen? And how sorry, could you see that

happening and how? And Lonesome Cowgirl
says, how do we stop being run by lobbies,

especially in Europe? We feel 100%
powerless.

So as I hand the floor back over to you,
Yanis can we look forward 2025?

Do you see any any opportunities, any any
chances to avoid 2025 becoming a year of

stagnation and to ensure that it could be
a year of progress on some of the issues

you outlined and heard from Srećko as
well? Well, the resistance is whatever.

You know, the Palestinians have shown us
the way. When you're facing slow

degradation you have to accept either the
slow degradation which which is the best

gift to the fascists because they are
radical and they say, give me power and I

will smash everything down and I will
upend the world.

Yeah, so a genuine progressive has no
right to accept the slow degradation.

We have to put forward a radical agenda
now in 2019.

I'll repeat that. Diem25 put forward a
radical agenda of what the European

Central Bank should do, what the ESM
should do, what the the European

Commission should do, what the European
Investment Bank should do, and so on.

Well, that's gone now because none of
these institutions can be saved or can

become part of a solution. They are part
of the problem now, which means that our

radical policies and actions must be aimed
at building up solidarity

amongst the many for the many to resist
the repercussions.

To mitigate the repercussions of this
permanent austerity.

And now the industrial decline of the of
the heart of Europe, of the industrial

base of Europe. So it's it doesn't sound
very hopeful.

But you know what?

Looking after the victims of this
degradation is the first step.

Because if we don't like, don't look after
them, if we don't look after each other on

the basis of a genuine transnational
humanist agenda, it's a fascists who will

offer to look after them in the same way.
The same way that Donald Trump offered to

look after the working class in America,
only to betray them. Of course, we are not

going to betray them. We have proven. We
have proven that at least. So this is this

is our job. It's it's hard work and it is
thankless work to a very large extent,

because, you know, in 2019, when we were
running around Europe with our Green New

Deal for Europe. We said, oh, look, this
is what we we can do now. We can't do

that. I mean, if we were to do that, we
would be lying to the people. But what we

can now do is create grassroots
institutions for supporting the many, and

that will be the foundation on which to
build a new project, a new, new Green Deal

for Europe. We mustn't call it that,
because that terminology has now died.

We have to think of another way of
organizing our narrative and labeling our

narrative. But, you know, resistance is
never futile.

This is this is the the most hopeful thing
I have to say.

Thanks. Yanis. Srećko.

Yeah, I think there was also I just got it
a question in the chat which I would love

to respond, which also kind of connects to
what Yanis has said. Let me just find it.

By someone called Kukoc?

In which country state do you see? Real
democracy. Srećko.

Since you mentioned it. Well, I think the
word democracy.

Which brings us to another problem of the
name DiEM25 first problem is next year,

25. What to do with the name?

Because now it will be this year.

But I also have a deep problem with
democracy. As as at least as it is

understood today in the liberal framework,
you know, in the way that Athens, for

instance, is the main inspirations even
today of democracy.

And it's no surprise that it's the main
inspiration for liberal democracy today

because it was based on exclusion of
women, slaves, foreigners.

It was at the same time based on, I see
Yanis.

Yeah. You are in Athens.

You know more about it. But anyhow, I just
think that, you know, Kojin Karatani has

written beautifully about it. In which
way? Union politics were more democratic

than Athenian ones, because they were not
tribal in that way. They were not relied

on imperialism and exclusion and blah,
blah, blah. But to respond to that would

bring us in a much more, I would say,
philosophical discussion about democracy.

But to respond the question from the chat,
where do I see democracy? Well, I see it

in, in, in Syria these days.

But you know, where under the Turkish
bombs supported by the United States.

It's the Kurds.

And it's no wonder, you know, that no one
among the liberals or the EU establishment

supports the Kurds, because I think their
vision of democracy is more radical than

any liberal or contemporary European
vision of democracy.

And their vision of democracy is, of
course, called democratic Confederation

ism or the Kurdish communalism, which is
based on self-government, self-governance,

on autonomy, on political ecology, on
councils, on direct democracy.

Which brings me to what Yanis is saying.
What do we need in 2000 and just a moment.

You know, you know, who were the first who
defeated ISIS? The first defeat of ISIS?

That's it for the Kurds and the Kurdish
movement.

So instead of supporting them.

What the West is doing, they're supporting
ISIS. So, so much about Western democracy.

You know, and and the cynicism of the
West, which is now you know talking about.

Prisons, which definitely are horrific in
Syria.

But they were themselves who invented. Abu
Ghraib and Guantanamo. I mean, that that's

also a kind of another double standard.

Cynical play of the West.

But what I wanted to say where I see a
future. Unfortunately, this future is

being destroyed as we speak are different
concepts of democracy.

Which exist which are more radical than
the parliamentary concept of democracy

than the liberal concept of democracy. And
it brings us back to what you Yanis said

about the grass roots movement. You know,
one of the reasons among many why the

Muslim Brotherhood came to power after
Mubarak was that they were actually pretty

successful in grassroots organizing. You
know in what the left was traditionally

doing in providing you know, mutual aid,
cooperation, medicine, if you miss it,

help with someone. You know what the Mafia
is doing in Italy, if you want another

parallel, which might sound crazy, but
what they are doing, in a way is working

on this level, which is not necessarily
part of the state.

Which also brings me to another point. I
think what we should be doing, I at least

will be doing it in 2025 is also try in a
modest way, as much as we can to construct

parallel institutions.

I mean, DiEM25, in a way, is already a
parallel institution. Of course, you have

you know, we have hundreds of thousands of
members.

Not all are active and so on, but it is an
institution which functions in a way. But

what I'm saying also is different
institutions which can provide this basis

not just of resistance.

And I wouldn't, definitely wouldn't call
it resilience because I hate it. It's a,

you know, it's a very liberal concept,
resilience. You know, we just have to

adapt to another climate crisis, to
another heat wave, to another genocide.

Let's be a bit more resilient. I mean,
fuck, fuck resilience. So it's definitely

not resilience. But I think what we should
be building is, I know it might sound

pretentious, some sort of archipelagos of
autonomy or what the Kurds call

confederation ism institutions which can
which, which are not necessary, which are

not part of the state or not part of the
market. Institutions, parallel

institutions, if you want which have I
mean, and the reactionary movements have

been quite successful into building these
parallel institutions. And the left.

Historically, but today, not anymore. So
institutions which provide real, concrete

help and meaning to people and at the same
time, they provide means of resistance to

the corporative sector.

You know, I don't think it's enough to to
come back to this Luigi in the United

States. You know, I don't think it's
enough to kill a CEO of any company in the

same way, it wasn't enough when the
anarchists in Russia were killing one side

or the other. You know, you need you need
a movement.

You. And besides a movement, you also need
infrastructure. And that's, I think, what

is really missing in our camp, if you want
infrastructure, which is in villages, not

just in cities, infrastructure, which is
not just doing a big event in a theater,

but infrastructure in the way that you
don't even need social media anymore. But

you can communicate to people directly.
Because what I'm seeing as well is that

this phase of let's call it the left or
whatever, which was also organizing or

promoting their ideas or mobilizing via
social media.

I think it's a big question in which way
will that continue? You know, if our

feudal lord, for instance, is Elon Musk
and we know what he is doing at the

moment, you know. So these are all
questions which are open questions for

2025. And I think the left, not to mention
the Greens, because I think the Greens

have lost all the credibility. They, they,
they had at least the European greens,

which doesn't mean that ecology, political
ecology is not important.

It's more important than ever precisely
because of the failure of the Greens. But

what we have to face. And the left as
well, but also the liberals is a major

defeat of democracy, a major defeat of of
for the planet itself because war,

climate, refugees, rising fascism, it all
comes together and it actually it's

completely intertwined. Thanks, Srećko.

We seem to be talking about a left that
needs to move from mobilizing to

organizing. Am I right?

And talking about grassroots institutions
like making being the change rather than

just trying to change things. Yanis would
you like to react to anything that Srećko

just said? And then I think we're reaching
the end of the hour. I, you know, thanks

for for mentioning the Kurds and their
confederation democracy, which is indeed a

remarkable, remarkable example of a
democracy that works, and which, of

course, then supports the choice that we
made as DiEM25 to retrieve the concept of

democracy, to take it away from the
so-called liberal Democrats who have

destroyed democracy like the Greens or
have destroyed the green movement. They

are brown, the Democrats are oligarchic,
and they have completely, completely

rubbished democracy as a concept.

One small philosophical, Historical if you
want reaction.

Yeah. Of course. Just I expected it, so
just go for it.

Of course you did. You know, only too
well.

But, you know, it is true that Western
liberal capitalists like to bathe

themselves in the aura of ancient Athenian
democracy.

But it is not true that they modelled
themselves on the ancient Athenian

democratic model.

No, their model is the Magna Carta.

It is not ancient Athens.

Ancient Athens is is used as a prop.

But the real model is Magna Carta. And
what was Magna Carta was a deal between

the king and the barons so that they would
they would divide amongst themselves the

spoil of the land or the spoils of the
land, including the human beings. So it

was the right of barons to exploit slaves
or peasants, that the that the barons

forced the king to give them.

This is what democracy is today. It's an
oligarchy with frequent elections, with

periodic elections. But it's not an easy
analysis because the analysis, even though

you had the inclusion of the women of the
metrics of, you know, there was a very

small, narrow band of men who were
citizens. Nevertheless, it had something

that today no liberal capitalist regime
will ever allow.

It was ruled by the poor because the
majority of the men who had the vote in

ancient Athens were poor, and they were
the Democrats, and they were against

elections. That's why they believed in
jury systems, in sortition.

So there's something very progressive
about ancient Athenian democracy, which

modern liberal democracy rejects
wholeheartedly.

They just want to take the Parthenon and,
you know, the concept of Pericles. Anyway,

this this is irrelevant. 111 final point.

I have seen democracy in the most unlikely
of places I've seen democracy in certain

communities in the United States.

You know, where they elect their judge or
their sheriff and they worked, you know,

especially poor communities.

I've seen it in some in even in some
corporations, a corporation that I worked

for in the United States, which had a one
share, one person, one vote system, which

is the essence of economic democracy,
without which you can't have democracy.

You end up with oligarchy if you don't
have economic democracy. But it's, you

know, tiny little what you said, the
archipelago of tiny little experiments.

I've seen democracy in the townhall of
Shanghai a few months ago in Shanghai, in

China, people say, oh, what do you mean,
China? Chinese Communist Party autocracy.

Yes, there is autocracy. There is
totalitarianism. There are political

prisoners. There is all that. But if you
go to a as if you had been with me at the

Shanghai town Hall, and you saw one hole
after the other full of people

representing neighborhoods of Shanghai
debating the laws of their neighbourhood

and effectively together in a
participatory way, writing the legislation

that rules over their own neighbourhoods.
You see a grassroots democracy at the

level of the grassroots of the
municipality, which we don't have in

Europe under liberal capitalism.

No. Of course, then nobody has the right
to criticize the Communist Party, right?

So these pockets of democratic experiments
with, I think, as you said, the Kurdish

experiment being at the top of it, give us
the sense that the only thing that stops

us from having democracy is oligarchic
power, the power of big capital and the

power of cloud capital.

Where I may have a small disagreement, is
that I think we need to use social media.

There is no way of not using social media.
It's like saying that, you know, in the

18th century, 17th century that because
the press is controlled by the church we

don't want the press. Of course we want
the press. We just want to usurp it and

take it and print our own pamphlets.

Radical, subversive pamphlets.

Similarly, as we as we speak now, we speak
through zoom.

We speak through YouTube.

What? We shouldn't do that because YouTube
is part of cloud capital of the techno

feudal empire. No, of course we should.
What? We should do more to use their

weapons against them in exactly the same
way that the whole point about the Marxist

left has been to take over the machines,
not to break them up. Thank you.

Yanis. And I'm aware that we've gone a
little bit over, and Srećko is soon going

to be overrun with small people or perhaps
one small person.

So can we move to the last segment where
we.

I just want to ask, starting with you,
Srećko like what?

What works of art left a mark on you this
year?

Books, movies, anything?

Well, after all this discussion, I would
also love to respond to Yanis.

But next time on social media.

Just to add, I think of course I'm always
for subversion, as you know, and using the

weapons against those who created them.
But I think at the same time, we should be

creating our own, our own infrastructure
and platform, which so far wasn't that

successful. But that's a completely
different not different topic. But it

would be a long discussion regarding yeah,
arts books theory and to, to move on this

kind of more gentle topics.

Well, I've been reading a lot in the last
months.

I had this luck to do.

So I was rereading Well, now it's not that
new anymore.

The book by David Wengrow and David
Graeber, the Dawn of everything because I

think it really beautifully shows. In
which way? Until now, at least until their

book, we were not even able to imagine or
to prove and thanks.

We thank God we have this archaeologist,
David Wengrow.

In which way even prehistoric societies
were in many respects more radical than

our today's society when it comes to
communal living to democracy.

And I think it's a very important book
also opposed to, you know, Harari, Pinker

and all these progressivist linear
thinking, you know, which would then end

up in Fukuyama at the end of history, as
if the whole history of humanity was

progressing you know, from hunter
gatherers through the agricultural

revolution to finally, finally arrive at
liberal democracy which, as we have

discussed today, is nothing but actually a
power game of the oligarchy today at the

same time, I've been reading books by
Christine Ross. I think both books are

published by verso.

One is communal luxury about the Paris
Commune, and the other one is a communal

form which goes from the Paris Commune to
movements in Japan to the Zads in France,

which actually develops, I think, a very
interesting theoretical thought which was

left behind you know, a century or two
centuries ago when there was a very

interesting discussion, both from Marxists
including Marx and anarchists, Proudhon,

Kropotkin and others. Elisée Reclus about
the meaning of the Paris Commune. And I

think Kristin Ross beautifully makes a
point, which we tried to make today, but

she puts it more she puts it, puts it
better in the context of the Paris

Commune, in which way we have to actually
in the here and now create a sort of

communal form which, you know, as soon as
you hear it, you can see, you know, the

communes of Paris 68, you can see
Bertolucci, the his movie The Dreamers and

how it ended up in the commodification of
capitalism. But this is not the kind of

communion she is talking about.

Also, last days I've been reading this
nice small book. It's called Gramsci at

the sea which is a book about the
importance of the oceans.

And, you know, it talks about deep sea
mining and in which way the oceans have

become you know, this territory of
primitive accumulation, if you want, or or

the privatization of the commons. It's a
very interesting and important book, I

think also if you read it parallelly, with
the geopolitical situation which is

unfolding in front of our eyes or screens
in the Mediterranean Sea, but also in the

Pacific and I think that's, you know, the
if we talked about the previous historical

sequence during our conversation, I think
that's the next historical sequence or

future sequence which is very connected to
oceans and to future islands, but also

geopolitical interests in the
Mediterranean and in the Pacific. So,

yeah, these were the, the the the, the
books, but I've been.

Yeah, also reading a lot.

Some other books I quite liked actually.

Yeah. Yanis. I think he lives on the same
island as you. James Bridle's book, Ways

of Seeing, Ways of Being Sorry, John
Berger is ways of seeing, and he talks

about ways of beings.

And I had the opportunity to have him at
our Isa school event on the island of EAS

two months ago. It was a very inspiring
lecture because I think he he he

especially when we are paralyzed by the
current moment of atrocities all across

the world and by a total war.

He speaks about broadening our senses of
perception and taking into account, I

mean, something what Peter Kropotkin was
doing already a great geographer with

investigating the animal world and showing
in which way mutual aid cooperation

already exists among other species.

James Bridle is doing this also with
plants.

With machines.

And I think that's very important to get
rid of this very narcissistic,

anthropocentric position in which humanity
today is thinking that with the end of us,

it will be the end of everything. It
won't.

And that's good news.

But that doesn't mean that on a daily
level, we shouldn't be active and

mobilizing as much as we can. But I think
we should also broaden our senses of

perception and sensibilities to things
which are not just geopolitics, wars as

much as we have to mobilize against them.
Yeah. That's great, but I watched movies.

I went to whatever.

I talk for hours.

But Yanis, I'm very curious to see what
you have been reading or watching. Go for

it. Except Star Trek, which Star Trek is
not new?

Yeah, I know it is.

It's like I wouldn't mention Das Kapital
in the same way I want to use Star Trek

here, but now I've got I've got a book
here for you folks, because I think what's

happening in India over the last ten
years, the demise of cosmopolitanism, of

secularism and the rise of radical
neofascist Hinduism.

This is a book here.

Put it for you. The incarcerations by Al
Basha. It's a very well, beautifully

written book on the political prisoners
who are languishing in jail for opposing

the conversion of India into an axis of
the Trumpist, nationalist international.

I recommend it thoroughly. When it comes
to movies, it has to be Ken Loach's Old

Oak. The old oak.

It's a typical masterpiece by the man who
has produced so many masterpieces in the

last 30 years, Ken Loach, our great
comrade DiEM25 member and friend but

primarily Ken Loach.

The movie is fantastic, and I highly
recommend it because it deals with the

question of migration.

The story, which I'll just brief without
spoiling the movie for you, is taking

place in a godforsaken Yorkshire village
that was devastated by the miners strike.

Half, half the people left. The other half
are unemployed, and they've become

Brexiteers. They've become they've turned
their their discontent into into racism.

And suddenly there are these Syrian
refugees, Syrian refugees that arrive in

the middle of a devastated place amongst
people who hate the foreigners simply

because they need to hate something. And
there are the divisions between these

people, between the people who supported
the miners strike or the strikebreakers.

And now you have the Syrians and how they
all come together.

And you and Loach is fantastic.

While he tells the progressive story that
he needs to tell, he makes it a human

story where you understand everyone in
there, and in the end, you know, you come

out of the movie feeling feelings of joy
that are very rare in these days.

So I've given you a book, I've given you a
movie. I'll give you a series as well, I'm

afraid, on Apple TV.

So, you know, bad luck is part of techno
feudalism.

It's called silo.

It it's science fiction.

Unfortunately, very soon it may be science
reality.

Because humans live in silos, dug deeply
into the ground, because the earth is

poisoned, the air is poisoned.

And you can see how underground we are
replicating structures of hierarchy, of

lies, of fake news, of oppression.

And and, you know, if you really want to
come to terms with the fact that we are

poisoning the Earth.

And what that means for us, I think, is a
pretty good series to watch. Thank you.

Yanis. I have a recommendation of my own,
actually. I mean, it's from two, 2019, but

I, I only just saw it. It's called Years
and Years.

Six episodes.

Brilliant, scary, science fiction,
dystopic, but also inspiring and so

prescient. Considering it was made in
2019.

It talks about refugees, the Ukraine
crisis, China, everything. And it's it's

not perfect, but it's very anxiety
inducing.

Wonderful to watch some recommendations
from you guys out there.

Sam Wilkinson recommends Fossil Capital by
Andreas Malm Libra recommends the film by

John London Martins Eden okay to let go
notes that Wengrow who you mentioned

Srećko has some good YouTube has a good
YouTube channel.

He recommends Future Primitive revisited,
a book by John Zerzan about primitivism.

He says it's the only way that we will be
able to survive as a species. P McGee

recommends Joanna macy, the environmental
activist and scholar of Buddhism, anything

that she has written. And that's it for
your recommendations. Allow me just to

finish with a couple more comments. I
should have read these up before. Just

more generally that I've been collecting
over the last half an hour. H.d.

says we need to return to city states for
true democracy. Democracy to flourish. The

freak contradicts him and says localism
can't tackle the large problems of our

time, including climate change. Mighty
insect asks, what are the robust,

self-organized structures that allow us to
collaborate across all kinds of borders? A

genuine question because you're looking
for best practices? Well, I can tell you

that this is something that we're doing
actively at DiEM25. We're going to be

doing more of it. I'm personally very
invested in this topic. Best practice,

good tactics. So please stay tuned to our
YouTube channel. Click the Hit the Bell

icon. We've got interviews with activists
who have done serious good work, and we're

definitely into cataloging those and
putting forward good tactics for everyone

to emulate. And Masshouse says that the
left should worry less about coming up

with the correct ideological line and more
about building popular support, which is

capable of putting pressure on
politicians. We take stances towards no

end, I would agree.

Finally, TJ says, My God, Srećko needs to
appear on more live streams and I heartily

agree with that.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, yeah, see you in a year. See you in
a year or something. No, no, I mean, you

mean in, in January 20th, a few days in a
few days, right. No.

One last one last suggestion.

It came to my mind. One of the best
documentaries I saw this year was

soundtrack for a coup.

It's a documentary by, I think, Belgian
filmmakers about the coup d'état in Congo.

And it's amazing because it talks about
the role of jazz.

Resources. I mean, at some point it was
also nuclear uranium which was used for

the bomb in Hiroshima and so on. It all
came from Congo. Today we know what's

happening in Congo. And I think it's it's
a very good movie. I didn't watch I will

sounds very depressing.

Years and years I watched and I think,
yeah, in my memory, it was a very good

series. Cool.

That's brilliant. Brilliant.

Well, thank you guys.

Thank you. Yanis. Thank you, Srećko. And
thank you to you out there. If you would

like to get more involved with DiEM25, if
you like what you've heard, please go to

diem25.org/join or slash donate to give us
funds to keep us going.

Keep the lights on. We've got no big
backers, so we depend on people like you,

small donors, and see you next year.

The. Just click the YouTube bell icon to
find out when the next live stream will be

up, but it won't be long. Thank you. Take
care. Stay safe and happy Christmas season

to you. Bye.