E104: Is 2025 Europe’s Last Chance? With Yanis Varoufakis and Srećko Horvat
-
0:03 - 0:05Hello, hello, hello and welcome,
-
0:05 - 0:07I'm Mehran Khalili.
-
0:07 - 0:11We are DiEM25 a radical political
movement for Europe. -
0:11 - 0:14And this is another live stream
featuring subversive ideas -
0:14 - 0:16you won't hear anywhere else.
-
0:16 - 0:20Tonight, as this is our final
live stream of the year, -
0:20 - 0:22we're taking a
look back at 2024. -
0:22 - 0:27It's been a year of upheaval and
awakening, a year marked by the rise of -
0:27 - 0:31authoritarian politics in Europe, the
worsening tragedies of the war in Ukraine -
0:31 - 0:36and the genocide in Gaza, and shocks like
the fall of Assad's government in Syria, -
0:36 - 0:40a year of political shifts, the return of
Trump in the US, paralysis in Germany, -
0:40 - 0:43martial law in South Korea,
a government collapse in France -
0:43 - 0:45and annulled election
in Romania. -
0:45 - 0:48So we'll be asking, what are
the themes emerging -
0:48 - 0:50from this year of
transformation? -
0:50 - 0:51What's the big picture?
-
0:51 - 0:53Then we'll switch gears
and we'll look ahead -
0:53 - 0:57to understand where do we go from
here as movements, as activists, -
0:58 - 1:00what will be the opportunities
-
1:00 - 1:02and challenges that are
waiting for us in 2025 -
1:02 - 1:04and will next year be
Europe's last chance -
1:04 - 1:08for relevance in the world,
for true democracy, for change. -
1:08 - 1:11And finally, as every time we do
this, we'll be wrapping up on a lighter -
1:11 - 1:16note asking what are the books, films, or
art that have left a mark on us this year -
1:16 - 1:21and which might give us all solace and
inspiration as we head into the next one? -
1:21 - 1:26So I can think of two no better people to
have this discussion with than our own -
1:26 - 1:28Yanis Varoufakis,
of course, Yanis. -
1:28 - 1:33And joining us for the first time in a
while, our co-founder at DiEM25, -
1:33 - 1:35the writer and philosopher
Srećko Horvat. -
1:35 - 1:37Welcome back to you, Srećko.
-
1:37 - 1:41And of course, you out there, you
watching us on YouTube, our audience -
1:41 - 1:44we'll be taking your questions
comments, suggestions throughout, -
1:44 - 1:46so please keep them coming.
-
1:46 - 1:49Let's jump right in,
let's get started with Yanis. -
1:49 - 1:51[Yanis] Well thank you Mehran.
-
1:51 - 1:55It's a great pleasure in this
bleakest of times to be -
1:55 - 2:01sharing XXX again with Srećko Because
many of you probably won't know, -
2:01 - 2:04but since you are tuned in to DiEM25,
-
2:04 - 2:06DiEM25 started when Srećko
-
2:06 - 2:12and I were having coffee in Berlin in
the summer of 2015 or September of 2015, -
2:13 - 2:15and the idea came
primarily from him. -
2:16 - 2:19We didn't even know we were going to call
it DiEM25 at the moment. -
2:19 - 2:21So anyway, to cut a long story short
-
2:21 - 2:26I think this is the right time for
a reunion just before 2025, -
2:26 - 2:31because that 25, which is attached to the
word DiEM, as in carpe diem -
2:33 - 2:36came up when we
were asking ourselves -
2:37 - 2:40when we were discussing ways
of turning Europe -
2:40 - 2:45into a progressive project
as opposed to a regressive one. -
2:45 - 2:48How long do we have as Europeans,
-
2:48 - 2:50not as Ukrainians,
but as Europeans? -
2:50 - 2:57How long do Europeans have to fix the EU
to turn it around to stop its -
2:57 - 3:02fragmentation, disintegration, and descent
into the hell in which it has become. -
3:03 - 3:07And you know, this was 2015
and off the cuff, -
3:07 - 3:09I think I answered the question.
-
3:09 - 3:11I said: Well, maybe a
decade, ten years. -
3:11 - 3:13So, 15 + ten = 25.
-
3:13 - 3:15And now 2025 is coming.
-
3:15 - 3:19And I'm just going to preempt
my answer. -
3:19 - 3:24I'm going to try to review 2024 before
we move to 2025. -
3:24 - 3:27But let me preview my answer
to Mehran's question. -
3:27 - 3:30Is 2025 Europe's last chance?
-
3:30 - 3:31No, I don't think so.
-
3:31 - 3:34That last chance was 2019,
the European Parliament elections -
3:34 - 3:37that Srećko and I
contested on purpose, -
3:37 - 3:40symbolically, in Germany
to make a point. -
3:40 - 3:42And we failed.
-
3:42 - 3:47Not us, just as DiEMers,
as Srećko and Yanis, but as Europeans. -
3:47 - 3:49We failed and we missed the chance.
-
3:49 - 3:51But allow me to come back to this
-
3:51 - 3:56when I reach the point when
Europe deserves to be discussed -
3:56 - 4:00because it doesn't deserve to be
topic number one -
4:00 - 4:04when we are reviewing 2024 because
the historian of the future is going to -
4:04 - 4:09look back to 2024, and there will
only be one word -
4:10 - 4:17that will dominate the
historic analysis of 2024. -
4:17 - 4:21And that word is Palestine, because there
is a genocide which is unfolding as we -
4:21 - 4:24speak, this very moment,
as we are here -
4:24 - 4:26in front of you, in YouTube,
wherever you are. -
4:29 - 4:34There are tens of thousands of tens
of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands -
4:34 - 4:38of starving children, many of them maimed,
many of them without parents -
4:38 - 4:41or with dead parents,
at least one of them -
4:41 - 4:45who are going hungry for
the third consecutive, -
4:45 - 4:48fourth consecutive night without
having eaten anything, -
4:48 - 4:51without water to drink or
to wash their face, -
4:51 - 4:52let alone their wounds.
-
4:52 - 4:54This is the reality as we speak.
-
4:54 - 5:01And it's been the reality every day
from the beginning and actually -
5:01 - 5:03before the beginning of 2024.
-
5:05 - 5:08I think also the historian of the future
is going to look back -
5:09 - 5:11to the 7th of October,
which is, of course, -
5:12 - 5:15a pivotal moment because
it was the moment when the fence -
5:15 - 5:21fencing in the Palestinians in Gaza
was attacked by Hamas militants, -
5:21 - 5:24and then, you had the
killings of the Israelis, -
5:24 - 5:26and then, of course,
all hell broke loose. -
5:26 - 5:31ButI think the historian of the future is
going to look at the choice that -
5:31 - 5:35I'm not going to talk about Hamas
now, but the choice that Palestinian -
5:35 - 5:39resistance fighters had before
the 7th of October. -
5:39 - 5:47And it was a very stark choice: silent,
slow death under the conditions of the -
5:47 - 5:50concentration camp, the open
concentration camp that was Gaza, -
5:51 - 5:55remember, 60% of children
were malnourished before -
5:55 - 5:57the 7th of October 2023,
-
5:57 - 6:02because Israel was effectively placing
a whole population under siege -
6:02 - 6:06and constantly, silently,
strangling them -
6:07 - 6:10through that embargo and
occasionally bombing them -
6:10 - 6:15of course, right, in September of 2023,
before the October 7th events -
6:16 - 6:20there were bombardments,
children were killed. -
6:20 - 6:24So please don't
let me start there -
6:24 - 6:27on those who begin their story
on the 7th of October, -
6:27 - 6:32as if the 6th of October
was a peaceful and tranquil -
6:33 - 6:37and a state of cohabitation between
two neighboring states. -
6:37 - 6:38Gaza is not a state.
-
6:38 - 6:40It is a concentration
camp in which people -
6:40 - 6:42have been
incarcerated since 1948. -
6:42 - 6:44So the Palestinians had a choice.
-
6:44 - 6:45Remember, before the 7th of October,
-
6:45 - 6:48nobody talked about Palestine,
not even us, Diem25. -
6:48 - 6:50We talked occasionally,
but not very often. -
6:50 - 6:54We talked more about Europe,
we talked about Ukraine, we talked about -
6:54 - 6:57a number of things, very important issues,
but not about Palestine. -
6:57 - 7:00And the Palestinians were effectively
abandoned by the whole world, -
7:00 - 7:02especially by the Arab world.
-
7:02 - 7:08Remember, Donald Trump's great
success in his first term was to -
7:08 - 7:13instigate the so-called Abraham
Accords, where essentially, a whole swathe -
7:13 - 7:17of Arab states, including the United Arab
Emirates, Morocco and others, -
7:17 - 7:20along with Egypt, made
peace with Israel -
7:20 - 7:22without a word about
the Palestinians. -
7:22 - 7:25Effectively, the Palestinians
were told: We will let you perish. -
7:25 - 7:28Just keep quiet and
die slowly and silently. -
7:28 - 7:30Don't bother us.
-
7:30 - 7:33Just die out of sight, out of mind
for the rest of the world. -
7:33 - 7:36So that's why I'm saying that the
Palestinians had a choice: -
7:36 - 7:43either allow themselves to die silently,
slowly, by not resisting or breaking out. -
7:43 - 7:46Because that was what the 7th of October
was: it was a breakout. -
7:46 - 7:50And time and again, I have
incurred the wrath of the Zionists -
7:51 - 7:53and the German state in particular
-
7:53 - 7:58by saying that the act of resistance,
the act of bringing down that fence -
7:58 - 7:59of the concentration camp,
-
7:59 - 8:02was not a right of the
Palestinian resistance fighters, -
8:02 - 8:03but it was a duty.
-
8:03 - 8:09At the same time any fighter,
whether they are -
8:09 - 8:13an Israeli soldier
or a Palestinian militant -
8:13 - 8:20who touches the hair of a
civilian who abducts people, -
8:20 - 8:22they are committing war crimes.
-
8:22 - 8:24So that was our original
position as DiEM25. -
8:25 - 8:29Now, since then the whole
of the Palestinian people -
8:29 - 8:33have been placed on death row.
-
8:33 - 8:39The West has supported Israel in taking
whole people and placing it on death row. -
8:39 - 8:43In Gasa, if you are not dead already,
you are on death row. -
8:43 - 8:47Tomorrow morning, there is a strong
probability that you will not live -
8:47 - 8:49or that you will not have
a leg or an arm -
8:49 - 8:53and then you will die six months
later, out of sight, out of mind. -
8:54 - 8:57I think that, looking back to 2024,
-
8:57 - 9:01also, the historian of the future is going
to pinpoint as a very significant moment, -
9:01 - 9:06the South African beautifully
-
9:06 - 9:10phrased case at the
International Criminal Court. -
9:10 - 9:16Sorry, the International Court of Justice
against Israel, that this was -
9:16 - 9:22a central point, one of the
rare rays of light. -
9:23 - 9:27But these rays of light were not allowed
to penetrate in the European Union -
9:27 - 9:31or of course, in Australia or in
Canada or the United States, -
9:31 - 9:38because Zionism has become the
official ideology of Western imperialism. -
9:39 - 9:42Zionism, especially in Germany,
where they don't feel comfortable -
9:42 - 9:46due to the Holocaust and they are right
not to feel comfortable -
9:46 - 9:49about feeling nationalistic and
expressing nationalism. -
9:49 - 9:52So in Germany, they have replaced
German nationalism with Zionism. -
9:52 - 9:56It's really very simple, which, by the
way, has nothing to do with the Jews. -
9:56 - 9:58Zionism has nothing to do with the Jews.
-
9:58 - 10:03There are so many anti-Semitic Zionists
and so many Jews who are anti-Zionist. -
10:03 - 10:06You just need to state
that to make the case. -
10:06 - 10:11And so remember, in April, DiEM25,
along with our friends and comrades -
10:11 - 10:14in the organisation,
the splendid organisation, -
10:14 - 10:18German Jewish organisation:
-
10:20 - 10:23a Jewish Voice for a Just Peace
in the Middle East. -
10:23 - 10:28We put together a Congress to discuss a
just peace in the Middle East -
10:28 - 10:31and the German state
brought down upon us -
10:31 - 10:34the full weight of
its authoritarianism. -
10:34 - 10:36They banned me from
entering the country. -
10:36 - 10:38They banned me from
even speaking through Zoom -
10:38 - 10:41to anyone in Germany,
which is a joke and a half, -
10:41 - 10:44because you can't even do that,
even if you try. -
10:44 - 10:45Anyway, I'm in court.
-
10:45 - 10:48I've taken the German
authorities to court, -
10:48 - 10:50but I'm not going to say
more on that. -
10:50 - 10:56Another pivotal moment in the
Palestinian tragedy during 2024 -
10:56 - 11:02was the decision by the
International Court of Justice, -
11:03 - 11:07which ruled to its credit
that the occupation, -
11:07 - 11:11the continuing occupation
of East Jerusalem, of the West Bank -
11:11 - 11:14and of Gaza by Israel is illegal
-
11:14 - 11:20and ordered the Israeli state to
move back to its pre 1967 borders. -
11:20 - 11:23And how did Israel respond?
-
11:23 - 11:27By convening the Knesset, the Israeli
parliament, where there was a vote, -
11:27 - 11:32I think it was 75/5, something like that,
crushing majority, -
11:32 - 11:40essentially binning the verdict of
the International Court of Justice. -
11:40 - 11:41How did they do that?
-
11:41 - 11:46By proclaiming there will never be
a Palestinian state anywhere -
11:46 - 11:51in the occupied territories, and that
these occupied territories were -
11:51 - 11:53the land of Israel.
-
11:53 - 11:58Effectively the Israeli parliament,
not just the government, -
11:58 - 12:01but the crushing majority of members
of parliament in the Knesset, -
12:02 - 12:04told the international community:
-
12:04 - 12:08We are not paying any attention
to what you have to say. -
12:08 - 12:11International law is
none of our business. -
12:13 - 12:18Since then, we have an interesting
dialectical paradox, -
12:18 - 12:19almost Hegelian, Srećko.
-
12:19 - 12:23On the one hand, you have
the complete victory -
12:23 - 12:24of the Israeli armed forces.
-
12:24 - 12:27They have pulverised Gaza.
-
12:27 - 12:35They are supporting the settlers in
their ethnic cleansing of West Bank. -
12:35 - 12:39They are taking over the houses of
Palestinians in East Jerusalem -
12:39 - 12:41without, I mean, there is resistance
-
12:41 - 12:43to the great credit
of the Palestinian people in Gaza, -
12:43 - 12:47in East Jerusalem, in the West Bank.
-
12:47 - 12:52But the ironclad IDF,
the Israeli army, has complete control. -
12:52 - 12:56The attacks on in south Lebanon,
-
12:56 - 12:59effectively the mass killings,
the mass murder in south Lebanon -
12:59 - 13:03in order to defeat
Hezbollah. -
13:03 - 13:05Well, they won that war, too.
-
13:05 - 13:08There has been a ceasefire.
-
13:08 - 13:14There's been an armistice, so to speak.
But Hezbollah had to decouple its own -
13:14 - 13:17fight from the fight of the of the
Palestinians in Gaza. -
13:17 - 13:23And that is a major victory for Netanyahu.
So you have, let's not forget, -
13:23 - 13:27the recent collapse of the Assad regime,
-
13:27 - 13:33which, while Syrians,
the majority of Syrians -
13:33 - 13:38have celebrated because Assad was
a bloodstained tyrant. -
13:38 - 13:42At the same time, it's a major victory for
Israel and the United States. -
13:42 - 13:46It is another defeat for the Palestinians
because whatever support they got, -
13:46 - 13:50they got through Iran and
Syria and Hezbollah. -
13:50 - 13:52There is no doubt about that.
-
13:54 - 14:01So why am I saying that this is a
Hegelian kind of dialectical paradox? -
14:01 - 14:03Because on the one hand,
you have the complete control, -
14:03 - 14:07but at the same time, as
our friend Ilan Pappe explains, -
14:07 - 14:09and he explains this quite nicely,
-
14:09 - 14:15the more successful militarily
Israel is, -
14:15 - 14:17the less reproducible is Israeli society,
-
14:17 - 14:23because increasingly
Israel itself is being taken over -
14:23 - 14:28by the genocide, genocidal maniacs
who are in control of the government -
14:28 - 14:31and not the government, but
the majority of the opposition as well. -
14:32 - 14:38So if you are a a liberal,
civilised Israeli, -
14:38 - 14:40even if you support generally
-
14:40 - 14:45the aims of Israel's annexation of
the lands of the Palestinians? -
14:46 - 14:54You can't really live in Israel under the
Smotrich's and the Ben-Gvirs, -
14:55 - 15:00those utterly fascistic individuals that
have dominated the Israeli executive. -
15:00 - 15:04So this is, you see, where
the dialectics come. -
15:07 - 15:10I spoke about Syria just briefly.
-
15:11 - 15:15In the last few days, I've been
involved in a running debate, -
15:15 - 15:16let's put it politely,
-
15:16 - 15:21with supporters of the
Palestinians -
15:21 - 15:24who are lambasting me for
feeling, for allowing myself -
15:24 - 15:32a moment of joy at the fall
of Assad, the tyrant, as I called him. -
15:33 - 15:38My message to them who are
accusing me -
15:38 - 15:40of taking the side the side of
the imperialists, -
15:40 - 15:42of Israel, of the United States,
-
15:42 - 15:50Is that to think that by
supporting tyrannical figures like Assad -
15:50 - 15:54or before him, Saddam Hussein, because
he's an enemy of our imperialist enemy, -
15:54 - 15:57that you are being an anti-imperialist,
think again. -
15:57 - 16:00Because to fight imperialism
and win in the long run, -
16:00 - 16:03we must win the hearts
and minds of minds of people. -
16:03 - 16:05And you cannot do that
by supporting tyrants -
16:05 - 16:07whom the people who
live under them loathe, -
16:07 - 16:10and to support them just because
they are enemies of our enemies. -
16:10 - 16:12And I've been accused
of being an idealistic. -
16:12 - 16:15Somebody recently, a few hours ago
on Twitter said, -
16:15 - 16:17but Yanis, this is very idealistic of you.
-
16:17 - 16:19You have to be very pragmatic.
-
16:19 - 16:21Do I do I need to be pragmatic?
-
16:21 - 16:25Why do you think I dedicate most
of my day on the Palestinian cause? -
16:25 - 16:29What do I have to be pragmatic about
there? Do I have something to gain? -
16:29 - 16:32Do I gain anything by
supporting a cause which -
16:33 - 16:39is essentially labelling anyone in
the West who supports that cause -
16:39 - 16:43an anti-Semite and enemy
of Western civilisation? -
16:43 - 16:45The only reason why I'm
supporting the Palestinians, -
16:45 - 16:48the only reason why I'm a Lefty,
-
16:48 - 16:51the only reason why I didn't sign
the MoU when I was forced to do that. -
16:51 - 16:54I was threatened to do that
by the Troika of lenders of Greece -
16:54 - 16:55is because of idealism.
-
16:55 - 16:57It's because of ideology.
-
16:57 - 17:00If we ditch ideology as
anti-imperialist, what do we have? -
17:00 - 17:05It was an ideology that in the end
won for the Viet Cong -
17:05 - 17:08the fight against the American
imperialists in Vietnam. -
17:08 - 17:11It is ideology which is behind every
revolution that ever succeeds. -
17:11 - 17:14It is not cost benefit analysis, folks.
-
17:14 - 17:17Anyway so just to wrap up
the Palestinian issue, -
17:17 - 17:21which was which is the main thing I'm
going to speak about here today, tonight. -
17:21 - 17:24The Palestinian people
on the 7th of October, -
17:24 - 17:28the fighters decided,
made a very simple decision. -
17:28 - 17:33They wouldn't allow themselves to go
silently into the good night. -
17:34 - 17:38They had the choice as I said before,
between a slow, silent extinction -
17:38 - 17:43and a big bang resistance, and
they chose the latter. -
17:43 - 17:44And now, as a result of that,
-
17:44 - 17:47we have the International Criminal
Court indicting Netanyahu. -
17:47 - 17:49This is not to be scoffed at,
-
17:49 - 17:51even though the ICC cannot
arrest Netanyahu. -
17:51 - 17:57The fact that Netanyahu cannot easily
travel to Paris, to London, to Berlin -
17:57 - 18:00without creating a major crisis,
-
18:00 - 18:04ideological crisis, legal crisis
in those countries, -
18:04 - 18:07they will have to decide
whether to arrest him or -
18:07 - 18:10to ditch the international
rules based order, -
18:10 - 18:12which supposedly they wax lyrical about.
-
18:12 - 18:14That is a major success.
-
18:14 - 18:19We must not forget that, and the fact that
we have the internal contradictions within -
18:19 - 18:24Israeli society, which I am sure that at
some point will lead to a change of heart -
18:24 - 18:27amongst the majority of
the population in Israel. -
18:27 - 18:30Call me an idealist again. I don't mind.
-
18:30 - 18:32Turning to Europe now.
-
18:32 - 18:34I'll be brief here.
-
18:36 - 18:45Europe is suffering the costs and the
perils of the legacy of denial. -
18:45 - 18:52For 15, 20 years now, we have not been
investing in our industry, in our society, -
18:52 - 18:56in our health, in our education. Because
of the logic, after the crisis of 2008, -
18:56 - 19:00of austerity for the many and
money printing for the very few, -
19:00 - 19:03because when you have
austerity for the many, -
19:03 - 19:05the few who get the money
that the central bank prints, -
19:05 - 19:06get the money,
-
19:06 - 19:10but they don't invest because they can see
that the very many have no money. -
19:10 - 19:13So why invest in goods and services
that many don't can't afford to buy? -
19:13 - 19:16So what do the rich do with the money that
the central bank prints on their behalf? -
19:16 - 19:18They buy assets:
-
19:18 - 19:21houses, house prices go up,
shares, share prices go up, -
19:21 - 19:22but no investment.
-
19:22 - 19:26And folks, the result of that was
after 15 years of not investing. -
19:26 - 19:27Guess what happened?
-
19:27 - 19:29Europe's industries collapsing.
-
19:29 - 19:33The whole of the German industrial model,
which was such a great success story. -
19:33 - 19:38You know what it resembles now?
-
19:38 - 19:41Do the older amongst you remember
-
19:41 - 19:43those electric typewriters
of the 1970s like Olivetti? -
19:43 - 19:46There were some really nice typewriters,
electric ones, -
19:46 - 19:50where they used to have this ball
that would rotate -
19:50 - 19:53and you type and it would go
click, click, click, click, click. -
19:53 - 19:55It was actually quite nice.
-
19:55 - 19:56Well then the PC came.
-
19:56 - 20:00These electric Olivetti typewriters were
dead in the water. -
20:00 - 20:05No reduction in the wages of the people
making those Olivetti electric typewriters. -
20:05 - 20:09No subsidy by the state would
have saved them. -
20:09 - 20:10The PC had come.
-
20:10 - 20:13Well, similarly, folks,
the electric car has come -
20:13 - 20:17and CATLand BYD batteries have come.
-
20:17 - 20:27We have new forms of turning wind
energy into green hydrogen -
20:27 - 20:30that wasdeveloped in China,
in the United States. -
20:30 - 20:34You know what? Europe has
not invested any of these things. -
20:34 - 20:36We are now in the situation
where Olivetti was -
20:36 - 20:40with its electric typewriters,
in the 1970s. -
20:40 - 20:45So we had as DiEM25, we had a policy
-
20:45 - 20:48which we called
the European Green New Deal, -
20:48 - 20:50the Green New Deal for Europe.
-
20:50 - 20:52We ran, Srećko and I
and others from DiEM25, -
20:52 - 20:55We ran in 7 or 8 countries in 2019.
-
20:55 - 20:57It was a magnificent programme.
-
20:57 - 20:59I have no doubt that
had it been implemented -
20:59 - 21:02Europe now would not be
in these dire straits. -
21:02 - 21:05But it wasn't implemented and we
missed a technological revolution. -
21:05 - 21:10And the result is: even the
powers that be that wax lyrical -
21:10 - 21:15about political consolidation and
common investment programs -
21:15 - 21:17and so on, well, they
don't even talk about it. -
21:17 - 21:20What do they talk about now as
the engine of growth of Europe, -
21:21 - 21:24the defence industry, the arms trade?
-
21:24 - 21:29They are talking about turning the
European Union into a European war Union. -
21:29 - 21:32They want an iron dome, Israel style.
-
21:32 - 21:35This, of course, that means American
missiles, right? -
21:35 - 21:38There will be no
development in this country. -
21:38 - 21:42Then recently, since we are
going through a review of 2024. -
21:42 - 21:48Mario Draghi, my arch enemy from 2015,
with whom I clashed mercilessly -
21:48 - 21:50and who shut down the Greek banks
-
21:50 - 21:52in order to essentially
blackmail the Greek people, -
21:52 - 21:57to accept universal austerity
to the power of N. -
21:57 - 22:00This gentleman. you know what
happens with these people -
22:00 - 22:02when they move away from
their positions of power? -
22:02 - 22:04Then they become
social democrats. -
22:04 - 22:06So he came up with a report
-
22:06 - 22:12which essentially copied the 2019
DiEM25 Green New Deal for Europe. -
22:12 - 22:18Remember, we were saying that there must
be an investment fund that must be funded -
22:18 - 22:21to the tune of 5% of European income?
-
22:21 - 22:26Well, that's what he says too, now
but of course, it's dead in the water. -
22:26 - 22:31The Draghi report, which cost hundreds of
thousands, if not millions of euros, -
22:32 - 22:37was accepted by Ursula von der Leyen,
the half crazy president -
22:37 - 22:39of the European Commission,
the warmonger. -
22:39 - 22:42She thanked him, she kissed him,
she paid him for the report -
22:42 - 22:48and then immediately put it in the
bin, because this Europe is not capable -
22:48 - 22:52of doing anything of what we
were saying back in 2019. -
22:52 - 22:55And the result, of course, is the
political fragmentation. -
22:55 - 22:57Why do you think there is no
government in Germany -
22:57 - 22:58or France as we speak?
-
22:58 - 22:59Because of that.
-
22:59 - 23:05Because if the foundation, the economic
foundation of a primarily economic union -
23:05 - 23:07and monetary union like the
European Union collapses, -
23:07 - 23:09that the politics on top of it
collapse as well. -
23:11 - 23:17Another great development in 2024,
of course, is Donald Trump. -
23:17 - 23:19We've already had a program here.
-
23:19 - 23:21So I will ask you to
go and listen to that. -
23:21 - 23:25I won't repeat too much,
but just briefly, epigrammatically, -
23:26 - 23:29Trump won for a very
simple reason, folks. -
23:30 - 23:39The Democrats: Biden, Kamala, that whole
motley of particularly interesting idiots. -
23:40 - 23:44They were telling the American
people, the American working class -
23:44 - 23:45that they've never had it so good.
-
23:45 - 23:48The American people were
telling them: no, that's not true. -
23:48 - 23:50We can't make ends meet.
-
23:50 - 23:52We are bankrupt.
-
23:52 - 23:53We can't afford a house.
-
23:53 - 23:58We can't afford to put groceries in our
basket in the supermarket. -
23:58 - 24:00We cannot afford to
put petrol in our car. -
24:00 - 24:05And in the United States, you don't have a
car, you're dead, you can't go anywhere -
24:05 - 24:09with this urban sprawl and the lack of
public transport and so on. -
24:09 - 24:15So, Trump looked at these people
and said, I feel your pain. -
24:15 - 24:17There is carnage in America.
-
24:17 - 24:19There is a lot of discontent.
-
24:19 - 24:20I am your man.
-
24:20 - 24:22Who do you think they voted for?
-
24:22 - 24:24They voted for Trump.
-
24:26 - 24:30I think there are another two things
that I need to say about Trump. -
24:30 - 24:37Trump promised to end the
Ukrainian war in 24 hours. -
24:37 - 24:40I'm pleased that there is a
president of the United States, -
24:40 - 24:42even if he doesn't mean it,
-
24:42 - 24:46even if he's a hypocrite, a fascist,
a misogynist, and all those things -
24:46 - 24:48that Trump is who
wants to end a war, -
24:48 - 24:50especially a war which is
a complete dead end. -
24:50 - 24:57It's just a meat grinder killing
young men from Russia, from Ukraine, -
24:57 - 24:59and also civilians for no reason.
-
24:59 - 25:00I mean, nothing is happening.
-
25:00 - 25:03There will be no victory either
on the one side or the other. -
25:03 - 25:05So it's good that he is
promising that. -
25:05 - 25:07But I don't think he can
deliver this peace -
25:07 - 25:11and he can't really deliver it because
Putin doesn't want to end the war. -
25:11 - 25:14He wants to keep grinding away,
taking one village after the other, -
25:14 - 25:20and he will set conditions for a peace
that Trump will not be able to accept -
25:20 - 25:22without being overthrown
by his own regime, -
25:22 - 25:25even by his own Trumpist,
Republican regime. -
25:25 - 25:27That's my my feeling.
-
25:27 - 25:31And then finally, his great Waterloo,
however, will be the promise he made -
25:31 - 25:34to the American working class
to look after them, -
25:34 - 25:38to bring industry back to the
United States by introducing, -
25:38 - 25:41slapping huge tariffs
on imports from Europe -
25:41 - 25:44and primarily from China,
but from Europe as well, -
25:44 - 25:46and therefore creating
circumstances -
25:46 - 25:48for industry to return
to the United States. -
25:48 - 25:50He will not succeed
in doing that, -
25:50 - 25:53because, remember, his number
one priority is the stock exchange, -
25:53 - 25:55the financiers
and the real estate. -
25:55 - 25:56He's a real estate agent.
-
25:56 - 25:58That's what he is personally, okay.
-
25:58 - 26:02Real estate and the stock exchange
in the United States only does well, -
26:02 - 26:05as long as the Chinese
and the Germans -
26:05 - 26:07have a trade surplus
with the United States, -
26:07 - 26:09because that surplus
gives them the money -
26:09 - 26:11that then they take to
the New York Stock Exchange -
26:11 - 26:16and to Miami and to California
and to New York to buy real estate. -
26:18 - 26:23Some comrades, some friends, some
progressives put a lot of stock -
26:23 - 26:28in the developments
with the BRICs. -
26:28 - 26:35Remember the BRICs, Brazil, Russia, India,
China, South Africa and a whole gamut -
26:35 - 26:37of other countries
that are now joining. -
26:37 - 26:44There was an interesting meeting in
Russia of the BRICs representatives -
26:44 - 26:48who discussed ways of creating
a system of payments -
26:48 - 26:51and actually have instituted it.
-
26:51 - 26:52Now it's up and running.
-
26:52 - 26:55Very interesting technologically,
it uses blockchain as well. -
26:55 - 26:58-for those of you who are interested
in blockchain technology- -
27:00 - 27:03that allows them to
trade with one another -
27:03 - 27:07in their own currencies, bypassing the
dollar system and therefore the sanctions. -
27:07 - 27:12Countries like Saudi Arabia and the
United Arab Emirates are also -
27:12 - 27:16interested in the BRICs because,
they don't want to put all their eggs -
27:16 - 27:18in the American dollar basket.
-
27:19 - 27:26However, it is a mistake to think of the
BRICs as an alternative Soviet Union -
27:26 - 27:33or Warsaw Pact that is going to create
checks and balances for American hegemony. -
27:33 - 27:35It is a mistake to think of it that way.
-
27:35 - 27:38Don't forget that India and China are
-
27:38 - 27:40almost at war within the BRICs.
-
27:40 - 27:44Don't forget that the United States is
-
27:44 - 27:49pushing Apple to shift its
factories producing... -
27:50 - 27:53We just had a little earthquake
here in Athens, -
27:53 - 27:56but I think everything's okay,
right Mehran? -
27:57 - 28:04Yeah, well, the ground shakes when
Diem does its live stream. -
28:07 - 28:16So Washington is pushing Apple to shift
its production lines from China to India. -
28:16 - 28:19So you can see there is a lot of
antagonism within the BRICs, -
28:19 - 28:21so there's no way
there's ever going to be -
28:21 - 28:24a kind of geostrategic alliance.
-
28:24 - 28:26The common interest
that binds them together -
28:26 - 28:31is they don't want to be under the
thumb of the Federal Reserve, -
28:31 - 28:36every transaction to be ruled over
by the American central bank -
28:36 - 28:38or the American government.
-
28:38 - 28:39This is what they
have in common. -
28:39 - 28:40But this is not enough.
-
28:40 - 28:46It is not enough in particular, because
China itself is facing its own dilemma. -
28:47 - 28:51Does China want to replace the
American dollar with a Yuan? -
28:51 - 28:52Not yet.
-
28:53 - 28:58Don't forget that Chinese capitalists who
sell, let's say, aluminium -
28:58 - 29:01that is produced in
Shenzhen, to California. -
29:01 - 29:05They rely on the American dollar and the
exorbitant privilege of the United States -
29:05 - 29:09to run a large trade deficit, because the
trade deficit of the United States is what -
29:09 - 29:13allows these Chinese capitalists to sell
aluminium to a Californian firm. -
29:13 - 29:16And his money comes in dollars,
and he invests in real estate in Miami -
29:16 - 29:18or in California, or in New York,
-
29:18 - 29:20or in American debt
for that matter. -
29:20 - 29:22Does he want to see the
demise of the dollar? -
29:22 - 29:24No, because his savings
are in dollars. -
29:24 - 29:29It's not clear that the Chinese
Communist Party, Xi Jinping for instance, -
29:29 - 29:33wants to clash with the
Chinese capitalists. -
29:33 - 29:40But even if he does, then China
has to accept the challenge -
29:40 - 29:43of playing the role within the BRICs
that the United States played -
29:43 - 29:46after the Second World War
in the Bretton Woods system. -
29:46 - 29:48And this is not something
that China does. -
29:48 - 29:53China does not want to be hegemonic,
China wants to trade with everyone. -
29:53 - 29:54It wants, free trade routes.
-
29:54 - 29:57It wants to be able to go invest
here, there and everywhere. -
29:57 - 30:01It doesn't want to run a
large part of the world. -
30:01 - 30:04This is not a decision that the Chinese
Communist Party has made. -
30:04 - 30:07And finally, to wrap up
this long soliloquy, -
30:08 - 30:10remember the climate catastrophe.
-
30:11 - 30:12We have forgotten about it
-
30:12 - 30:15because we have wars, we have
genocide, we are sidetracked. -
30:16 - 30:19But the world is moving
headlong. -
30:19 - 30:22The world, not the world, Humanity,
-
30:22 - 30:28our species, is moving straightforwardly,
head on towards our extinction. -
30:31 - 30:37The only way of stopping it would
have been a tripartite agreement on -
30:38 - 30:41decarbonisation between the United States,
China and the European Union. -
30:41 - 30:43The European Union doesn't exist.
-
30:43 - 30:45It has rendered
itself obsolete. -
30:45 - 30:49The United States has Trump, who doesn't
believe in climate change. -
30:49 - 30:51So we are left only with China.
-
30:51 - 30:55China is producing the
bulk of all the decarbonisation -
30:56 - 31:00technologies in the world,
but it can't do it alone. -
31:03 - 31:05In the context of everything
that I've said, -
31:05 - 31:09and I hope I haven't darkened
your soul too much. -
31:09 - 31:16But if we are going to review 2024,
honestly, we can't beat about the bush -
31:16 - 31:19and we can't offer false hope
and fake optimism. -
31:19 - 31:21But here comes the hope.
-
31:21 - 31:22We're here.
-
31:22 - 31:25We're a small movement,
Diem25. -
31:25 - 31:27We started it in that cafeteria
-
31:27 - 31:30Srećko and I in 2015 in Berlin.
-
31:30 - 31:32But now, we are all together.
-
31:32 - 31:34We have tens of thousands of people.
-
31:34 - 31:36Our comrades are out
in the streets of Germany -
31:36 - 31:39as we speak, gathering signatures.
-
31:39 - 31:44If you live in Germany, sign for MERA25
to become a registered party -
31:44 - 31:46for the forthcoming federal election.
-
31:46 - 31:49We have created a Progressive
International. -
31:50 - 31:56We are very far away from
even dreaming of success. -
31:56 - 31:59But as long as we are fighting,
there is hope. -
31:59 - 32:00Hope without optimism.
-
32:00 - 32:02Right, Srećko?
-
32:06 - 32:08[Mehran] Srećko,
let's bring you in. -
32:09 - 32:11Yeah, thank you, thanks Yanis.
-
32:13 - 32:18It's a nice finish finale with this
hope without optimism, -
32:18 - 32:22which is, of course, a phrase which
comes from Terry Eagleton. -
32:22 - 32:24And there is nothing which
I hate more than optimism, -
32:24 - 32:27but on the other hand,
also pessimism. -
32:27 - 32:32So, I mean, Gramsci put it nicely,
I don't want to repeat it but to come -
32:32 - 32:35to the gist of the matter and what
you said, and I will refer to some things -
32:35 - 32:41you said because I think definitely if we
think about 2024 these are the most -
32:41 - 32:48important defining moments, not just of
our present, but for the future. -
32:48 - 32:52And I think we have to put it in the
context of a historical sequence -
32:52 - 32:56which I think started
after the financial crisis -
32:56 - 32:58and then with the
so-called Arab Spring -
32:59 - 33:06Tunisia, Egypt and other countries
and the huge hope and optimism, -
33:06 - 33:08if you want, what will
happen out of this? -
33:08 - 33:11That was also the years
of Occupy Wall Street, -
33:12 - 33:16and then later, of course, your
own experience with Syriza at the -
33:16 - 33:18referendum in Greece and so on.
-
33:18 - 33:21What we are witnessing now,
I think, is you said it correctly, -
33:21 - 33:29a total triumph of the axis between
Israel, United States and Turkey. -
33:29 - 33:34And it's a triumph which kind of concludes
this historical sequence, which in a way -
33:34 - 33:41started 2010, 2011, when there was still
hope that some progressive revolution -
33:41 - 33:44might take place and some sort of
revolutions took place. -
33:44 - 33:47But we have seen very quickly
what happened to Egypt -
33:47 - 33:52after Mubarak with the Muslim
Brotherhood not to mention Libya -
33:52 - 33:57and what happened to Libya
after the intervention and after Gaddafi, -
33:57 - 34:01when we got, like hundreds of Gaddafi's
and a continuous civil war in Libya. -
34:02 - 34:08So in this sense, yes, on the one hand,
it's a triumph of Washington and Israel -
34:08 - 34:10and then Erdogan and
some other players. -
34:11 - 34:16I think at least 20 to 30 different
geopolitical players are at the moment -
34:16 - 34:19involved in that region
already in various ways. -
34:19 - 34:24And on the other hand, it also proves the
irrelevance of the European Union. -
34:25 - 34:31What Macron and other
leaders were doing just at the time -
34:31 - 34:35when the rebels were taking
over Syria and Damascus. -
34:35 - 34:42Well, they gathered at Notre Dame to open
the church, which unfortunately was caught -
34:42 - 34:45in fire, I think, five years
ago or something -
34:45 - 34:47and you could have seen just
by looking at their faces, -
34:47 - 34:52at their gesture, at their
body language in which way -
34:52 - 34:56they just were proving more and more
their own irrelevance. -
34:56 - 34:58You already said it about
the French government. -
34:58 - 35:00That was just at that moment.
-
35:00 - 35:03So Macron is definitely, definitely not
that powerful as he was -
35:03 - 35:06or as he wishes to be.
-
35:06 - 35:10And at the same time, you could have
seen in which way other political leaders -
35:10 - 35:13from all across Europe react towards
-
35:13 - 35:20on the one hand, Donald Trump and now a
new addition in 2024 and especially -
35:20 - 35:27in 2025, Elon Musk and more and more
often, Elon Musk with his son on his -
35:27 - 35:32shoulders which in a way it describes,
embodies perfectly the situation in which -
35:32 - 35:38we are, in which businessmen become
politicians and in which billionaires are -
35:38 - 35:40now the ones who actually
influence politics. -
35:40 - 35:45This is what you talk about.
Yanis, in Technofeudalism. -
35:45 - 35:49I mean, this is the best embodiment of it:
Trump and Elon Musk and in which way they -
35:49 - 35:55actually negotiate already with European
leaders from Giorgia Meloni to now, -
35:55 - 35:58you know, who was just yesterday,
-
35:58 - 36:02at Trump's villa in the
United States, Viktor Orbán. -
36:02 - 36:06At the same time, while all of this
what we are talking about -
36:06 - 36:09is happening in the world,
Palestine, Syria, -
36:10 - 36:15Viktor Orban is in the United States
meeting Donald Trump, Elon Musk -
36:16 - 36:20and already working on
the fascist international, -
36:20 - 36:22if you want to put it like that.
-
36:22 - 36:29So at the same time, while it was a
triumph of the transatlantic block -
36:30 - 36:38and imperialism, the last year,
2024 I think was also besides -
36:38 - 36:43proving the irrelevance of the European
Union at the same time, also a huge -
36:43 - 36:51setback, a huge disruption in the
so-called Left progressive movements -
36:51 - 36:54thinking political parties, if you
want, at the same time. -
36:54 - 36:58You could have seen also, I think if we
speak about the establishment parties -
36:58 - 37:03you could have seen that all
the masks have fallen down -
37:03 - 37:06from the so-called Green parties.
-
37:06 - 37:08Just look at the German Greens.
-
37:09 - 37:13Just the letter to
Jill Stein, for instance -
37:13 - 37:19or more recently, what is happening
at the periphery of the European Union -
37:19 - 37:26in Serbia, that a while ago
they found the biggest reserve -
37:26 - 37:28of lithium anywhere in Europe
-
37:29 - 37:31there at the periphery of the EU.
-
37:31 - 37:36A little problem for them, as usual, is
that there is an autocrat in power, -
37:36 - 37:38Aleksandar Vučić.
-
37:38 - 37:43But that didn't stop Olaf Scholz
yesterday welcoming Aleksandar Vučić -
37:43 - 37:46in Germany and talking further with him
-
37:46 - 37:52in which way the German automobile
industry, auto industry would use the -
37:52 - 37:57lithium mines in Serbia to extract further
lithium so that the middle class -
37:57 - 37:59in Germany can drive green cars
-
37:59 - 38:02and that the Green Party can
speak of a Green Deal -
38:02 - 38:05or of a transition towards a Green Deal.
-
38:05 - 38:10What we have seen in 2024 last year, and
what I think we will see more and more -
38:10 - 38:13in the next year,
is that on the opposite, -
38:13 - 38:16we are nowhere near,
we are actually even -
38:16 - 38:21further away from solving or even
approaching the climate crisis, -
38:22 - 38:25which is the biggest crisis
f the planet, -
38:25 - 38:27and not just the future of humanity,
-
38:27 - 38:31but also many other species
which are already going extinct. -
38:32 - 38:37Because what we can see now, with the
situation in Syria is that what is coming -
38:37 - 38:46back is, good old -I'm saying it
in a sarcastic way- minerals for instance. -
38:47 - 38:51If you look at the interventions
in Libya, in Iraq, in Syria, -
38:51 - 38:55it was always about oil,
among other things. -
38:55 - 39:01Of course, it was also: if you take the
case of Libya, the problem was also -
39:01 - 39:03unification of Africa, of course,
-
39:03 - 39:06whatever we can think of
Gaddafi. -
39:06 - 39:10If you look also now at the current
situation in Syria, very quickly, you will -
39:10 - 39:14also, have the other hand
come to pipeline politics. -
39:14 - 39:19You know, one pipeline which was Russia
backed from Iran through through Iraq to -
39:19 - 39:25Syria and then further to Europe with gas
which would equip European households -
39:25 - 39:29which of course, no one among the
establishment in the EU wants. -
39:29 - 39:32And now there is a clearing. There is a
perfect situation. That's why I'm calling -
39:32 - 39:37it a triumph. Triumph in many ways for
this transatlantic bloc, plus Israel, -
39:37 - 39:43which was always part of it is the other
pipeline which is supposed to go and -
39:43 - 39:48that's a long dream, at least for a decade
or even longer from Qatar via Iraq and -
39:48 - 39:49Syria and then Turkey.
-
39:50 - 39:53So this space is now open.
-
39:53 - 39:57What is temporarily blocked is something
what I think the EU establishment is -
39:57 - 40:01trying to block that's I think, their
main, agenda. -
40:01 - 40:07One of the main fears of the EU
establishment is definitely Eurasian -
40:07 - 40:13integration. So I mean, Russia and Ukraine
is part of this story, but I think what -
40:13 - 40:21you can see very visibly and clearly is
that Syria and Iran are definitely a part -
40:21 - 40:25of this story because Iran and all these
countries are, to put it bluntly, in the -
40:25 - 40:27middle of China and Europe.
-
40:28 - 40:33And now a block is created, a kind of
border which prevents the further Eurasian -
40:33 - 40:36integration which is in a way,
unstoppable. -
40:36 - 40:42If you look at China, of course. So I
think what the situation in Syria now -
40:42 - 40:49reveals is of course on the one hand,
imperialism which is as always as it -
40:49 - 40:55always was, coupled with capitalism the
so-called West. -
40:55 - 41:02What we can see these days is more afraid,
as it always was of genuine democracy, -
41:02 - 41:06then it is afraid of jihadists or Islamic
fundamentalists. -
41:06 - 41:10And that's what's happening now in Syria.
But that was also what was happening in -
41:10 - 41:15Iran. You know, remember Mosaddeq the
prime minister of Iran, who was overthrown -
41:15 - 41:19by the British secret service and with the
help of the CIA. Why? Because the Brits -
41:19 - 41:23wanted the wanted the oil, but Mosaddeq
wanted to nationalize it. -
41:23 - 41:28And then in the next decade, you had the
Shah, which was supported by the US. But -
41:28 - 41:34actually all these interventions and the
United States meddling inside of Iran -
41:34 - 41:35created Khomeini.
-
41:35 - 41:39And if you look at Iran today, you will
see you will not find a secular country. -
41:39 - 41:42If you look at Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria.
-
41:42 - 41:46I happen to be in Syria, I think just
before the Arab Spring. And I saw it with -
41:46 - 41:49my own eyes. These were all secular
countries. -
41:50 - 41:54I mean, even during Assad. And I have
also, like you, Yanis all the worst words -
41:54 - 41:55against Assad.
-
41:56 - 42:02You know, I think at the same time. We
must, we can and we must be against Assad -
42:02 - 42:06or people like him, including Putin,
including Gaddafi. -
42:06 - 42:08And at the same time against imperialism.
-
42:08 - 42:13I think this is not either or. I think
with the situation in Syria, what we can -
42:13 - 42:16clearly see is the consequences of
imperialism. -
42:18 - 42:20Assad is also a consequence of it.
-
42:20 - 42:26But you know, as someone who comes from
socialist Yugoslavia who was here during a -
42:26 - 42:31bloody war I remember very well in which
way the so-called international left -
42:32 - 42:34supported Slobodan Milosevic.
-
42:34 - 42:37You know, why did they support him? They
supported him because they thought -
42:37 - 42:39Milosevic is an anti-imperialist player.
-
42:40 - 42:42And that's far from the truth.
-
42:43 - 42:45Very far from the truth.
-
42:45 - 42:49In the same way you can see today that,
you know, Schultz and those people, you -
42:49 - 42:53know, they would rather see Vucic in power
for the next ten years than they would -
42:53 - 42:56they would want to see democracy in
Serbia. -
42:56 - 43:00Because if there was true democracy in
Serbia, then the people would decide, we -
43:00 - 43:05don't want German companies to take all
the lithium out of our country. -
43:05 - 43:09And actually, what is happening now at the
periphery of the EU is the most massive -
43:09 - 43:12protest you can imagine in the. In Europe
today. -
43:13 - 43:18Exactly. In Serbia, where you have not
just hundreds of protests, public protests -
43:18 - 43:22on the streets, but in the last week you
actually have dozens of blockades, -
43:23 - 43:26occupations of faculties, universities,
courts. -
43:26 - 43:29You even have plenums councils.
-
43:29 - 43:33I mean, all of this, which we also had in
Croatia 15 years ago with occupations and -
43:33 - 43:37faculties, what you had at Occupy Wall
Street and so on. So at the same time -
43:37 - 43:41there is there is resistance also within
the EU. -
43:42 - 43:43What I expect of.
-
43:43 - 43:51But we are still at 20, 24 will come to
2025 to come back a bit, just again to to -
43:51 - 43:52to the EU.
-
43:53 - 43:58What we can also see is that on the one
hand, of course, it's the further -
43:58 - 44:03irrelevance of the European Union. But on
the other hand, I think it's the it's the -
44:03 - 44:10further slide into not just right wing
politics, but full blown fascism which is -
44:10 - 44:19now operating on a level of diplomacy, you
know like a nice soft fascism, if you -
44:19 - 44:25want, like, like, just remember what
happened with this deal between Giorgia -
44:25 - 44:26meloni and Albania.
-
44:26 - 44:32So basically, now Italy has built a
concentration camp for 30, 40,000 refugees -
44:32 - 44:33in Albania.
-
44:33 - 44:38So basically, you have an outsourcing of
the of the migrants at the same time with -
44:38 - 44:43the Syrian crisis and, and and the war I
mean, many the Austrian government, the -
44:43 - 44:47German government, many EU governments are
now talking about openly talking about -
44:47 - 44:53repatriation and deportations of Syrian
refugees, millions of them who arrived -
44:53 - 44:56after the war in 2000 11.
-
44:57 - 45:01So basically, they're sending them back
to, use your words. Yanis to the death row -
45:01 - 45:07in a way. And what we will see now is that
this situation will just progress. -
45:07 - 45:12So to, to to slowly conclude, I think
what, what the last year but also the last -
45:12 - 45:18years has have proven is that we are in a
state of, I would characterize it at that -
45:18 - 45:26as that of a total war total war in the
sense of that production and destruction -
45:26 - 45:31become the same you know, at the same time
to, to, to put it bluntly, at the same -
45:31 - 45:38time, when Israel is bombing military
facilities and weapons in Syria at the -
45:38 - 45:45same time, EU cargo ships under various
flags are transporting weapons to Israel. -
45:45 - 45:48So at the same at the same time, you have
this destruction of weapons, at the same -
45:48 - 45:53time, you have the production and and
transmission of weapons from the west of -
45:53 - 45:57the Mediterranean to the east of the
Mediterranean. Then you have Keir Starmer -
45:57 - 46:00on Cyprus. British troops on Cyprus.
-
46:00 - 46:01Nato on Cyprus.
-
46:01 - 46:05And at the same time, that's why I'm
saying it's it's a sort of total war where -
46:05 - 46:09production and destruction become the
same. From the east to the west of the -
46:09 - 46:14Mediterranean, you have another wave,
which is not the, the, the transmission of -
46:14 - 46:21arms, but it's people fleeing the wars
which were produced by imperialism and the -
46:21 - 46:23role which EU has in it.
-
46:24 - 46:30So I think in that sense we are talking
about a total war, which if we come back, -
46:30 - 46:33you mentioned is already to Trump.
-
46:33 - 46:37But I think this Notre Dame and all these
kind of events are also very interesting -
46:37 - 46:38from a semiotic perspective.
-
46:40 - 46:45Because I think more and more we are not
just in a total war when it comes to the -
46:45 - 46:50economy, which is now more and more
focused or totally focused on on war -
46:50 - 46:55production, but we are more and more in a
in a in a state of war when it comes to -
46:55 - 47:00the semiosphere, when it comes to
semiosphere as the sphere of signs. -
47:00 - 47:04When it comes to this, I see you on a
screen, you see me on a screen. And the -
47:04 - 47:10power of cloud capital, if I if I may use
your words Yanis the power of Silicon -
47:10 - 47:15Valley and in which way it captured almost
everything. -
47:15 - 47:18You know, our communication, our emotions.
-
47:18 - 47:24Just think of Grindr, Tinder, social
dating apps now coupled with AI. -
47:24 - 47:28So basically we are in a total war also in
the semiosphere. -
47:28 - 47:32So in that sense, it's not any more
important what Trump will do. -
47:32 - 47:37Now. I'm slowly coming to 2025 with the
economy in the United States. -
47:37 - 47:41I think what is becoming more and more
important. And by this, I don't say that, -
47:41 - 47:46that I don't recognize and I don't fight
against the real plight of the working -
47:46 - 47:50class. But what is more and more becoming
important, I think, is perception, -
47:50 - 47:54reality, the question of reality. I mean,
Jean Baudrillard was very quickly, in the -
47:54 - 47:59last 20 years, dismissed by, by radical
theory and leftists. -
47:59 - 48:03But I think Jean Baudrillard had a good
point when he talked about simulation and -
48:03 - 48:08in which way there is actually this kind
of simulation is becoming our new reality. -
48:08 - 48:13You know what Trump does, in which way he
moves the feast together with Macron and -
48:13 - 48:16so on. It changes the perception of
people. -
48:16 - 48:21And that's, you know, if you go back to
the mastermind behind it, Steve Bannon he -
48:21 - 48:25clearly understood, you know, the power of
Facebook already, the power of Silicon -
48:25 - 48:26Valley companies.
-
48:26 - 48:33And what I think we will see even more and
more in 2025 is the further empowerment of -
48:33 - 48:38oligopolies of the billionaires, who are
mainly in the tech sector, who are now -
48:38 - 48:43coupled with, you know, not just Donald
Trump, but Javier Melaye in Argentina, -
48:43 - 48:49Viktor Orban, Giorgia meloni all the
people who are responsible also for the -
48:49 - 48:55irrelevance of the EU, and also for the
participation of the EU in war crimes and -
48:55 - 48:57genocide. So that's all for me.
-
48:57 - 49:00Also very optimistic.
-
49:01 - 49:03Thank you. That was 2024.
-
49:03 - 49:06What can I do? Well I was just going to
say I mean it does sound very bleak, but -
49:06 - 49:11it was a very bleak year. And just to I
mean, Yanis talked about Gaza and children -
49:11 - 49:14in Gaza, just to put some, some stats
there on that. -
49:14 - 49:20It's Gaza between October 7th and three
days ago, at least 17,492 children have -
49:20 - 49:24been killed in Gaza. That equates to
approximately one in every 65 children in -
49:24 - 49:25the Gaza Strip.
-
49:25 - 49:29So horrendous open wound there.
-
49:29 - 49:33And and of course, all the other things
you mentioned do paint a very bleak -
49:33 - 49:37picture. A couple of quick comments from
the chat and questions. -
49:37 - 49:41Keith Sutton Jones notes that Russia has
just advised all Russian citizens to leave -
49:41 - 49:43the USA. I checked that out.
-
49:43 - 49:47It's not exactly to leave the USA, but it
says that they shouldn't. -
49:47 - 49:55They advise Russian citizens not to visit
the United States. Balbo says in my view, -
49:55 - 49:59a reformed federal Europe would be best,
but that is a fantasy thought anyway. -
49:59 - 50:03Could you see that? How could you see that
happen? And how sorry, could you see that -
50:03 - 50:08happening and how? And Lonesome Cowgirl
says, how do we stop being run by lobbies, -
50:08 - 50:11especially in Europe? We feel 100%
powerless. -
50:11 - 50:17So as I hand the floor back over to you,
Yanis can we look forward 2025? -
50:17 - 50:26Do you see any any opportunities, any any
chances to avoid 2025 becoming a year of -
50:26 - 50:30stagnation and to ensure that it could be
a year of progress on some of the issues -
50:30 - 50:36you outlined and heard from Srećko as
well? Well, the resistance is whatever. -
50:36 - 50:40You know, the Palestinians have shown us
the way. When you're facing slow -
50:40 - 50:48degradation you have to accept either the
slow degradation which which is the best -
50:48 - 50:54gift to the fascists because they are
radical and they say, give me power and I -
50:54 - 50:57will smash everything down and I will
upend the world. -
50:57 - 51:03Yeah, so a genuine progressive has no
right to accept the slow degradation. -
51:03 - 51:09We have to put forward a radical agenda
now in 2019. -
51:09 - 51:13I'll repeat that. Diem25 put forward a
radical agenda of what the European -
51:13 - 51:17Central Bank should do, what the ESM
should do, what the the European -
51:17 - 51:21Commission should do, what the European
Investment Bank should do, and so on. -
51:22 - 51:27Well, that's gone now because none of
these institutions can be saved or can -
51:27 - 51:30become part of a solution. They are part
of the problem now, which means that our -
51:30 - 51:40radical policies and actions must be aimed
at building up solidarity -
51:40 - 51:46amongst the many for the many to resist
the repercussions. -
51:46 - 51:50To mitigate the repercussions of this
permanent austerity. -
51:50 - 51:55And now the industrial decline of the of
the heart of Europe, of the industrial -
51:55 - 51:59base of Europe. So it's it doesn't sound
very hopeful. -
51:59 - 52:00But you know what?
-
52:00 - 52:06Looking after the victims of this
degradation is the first step. -
52:06 - 52:10Because if we don't like, don't look after
them, if we don't look after each other on -
52:10 - 52:18the basis of a genuine transnational
humanist agenda, it's a fascists who will -
52:18 - 52:22offer to look after them in the same way.
The same way that Donald Trump offered to -
52:22 - 52:25look after the working class in America,
only to betray them. Of course, we are not -
52:25 - 52:30going to betray them. We have proven. We
have proven that at least. So this is this -
52:30 - 52:36is our job. It's it's hard work and it is
thankless work to a very large extent, -
52:36 - 52:41because, you know, in 2019, when we were
running around Europe with our Green New -
52:41 - 52:44Deal for Europe. We said, oh, look, this
is what we we can do now. We can't do -
52:44 - 52:48that. I mean, if we were to do that, we
would be lying to the people. But what we -
52:48 - 52:56can now do is create grassroots
institutions for supporting the many, and -
52:56 - 53:02that will be the foundation on which to
build a new project, a new, new Green Deal -
53:02 - 53:07for Europe. We mustn't call it that,
because that terminology has now died. -
53:07 - 53:13We have to think of another way of
organizing our narrative and labeling our -
53:13 - 53:18narrative. But, you know, resistance is
never futile. -
53:18 - 53:22This is this is the the most hopeful thing
I have to say. -
53:24 - 53:25Thanks. Yanis. Srećko.
-
53:28 - 53:35Yeah, I think there was also I just got it
a question in the chat which I would love -
53:35 - 53:40to respond, which also kind of connects to
what Yanis has said. Let me just find it. -
53:40 - 53:42By someone called Kukoc?
-
53:42 - 53:45In which country state do you see? Real
democracy. Srećko. -
53:46 - 53:50Since you mentioned it. Well, I think the
word democracy. -
53:50 - 53:55Which brings us to another problem of the
name DiEM25 first problem is next year, -
53:55 - 53:5825. What to do with the name?
-
53:58 - 54:01Because now it will be this year.
-
54:02 - 54:07But I also have a deep problem with
democracy. As as at least as it is -
54:07 - 54:12understood today in the liberal framework,
you know, in the way that Athens, for -
54:12 - 54:17instance, is the main inspirations even
today of democracy. -
54:17 - 54:22And it's no surprise that it's the main
inspiration for liberal democracy today -
54:22 - 54:27because it was based on exclusion of
women, slaves, foreigners. -
54:27 - 54:30It was at the same time based on, I see
Yanis. -
54:30 - 54:33Yeah. You are in Athens.
-
54:33 - 54:37You know more about it. But anyhow, I just
think that, you know, Kojin Karatani has -
54:37 - 54:43written beautifully about it. In which
way? Union politics were more democratic -
54:43 - 54:47than Athenian ones, because they were not
tribal in that way. They were not relied -
54:47 - 54:52on imperialism and exclusion and blah,
blah, blah. But to respond to that would -
54:52 - 54:56bring us in a much more, I would say,
philosophical discussion about democracy. -
54:56 - 55:01But to respond the question from the chat,
where do I see democracy? Well, I see it -
55:01 - 55:03in, in, in Syria these days.
-
55:03 - 55:08But you know, where under the Turkish
bombs supported by the United States. -
55:10 - 55:11It's the Kurds.
-
55:12 - 55:17And it's no wonder, you know, that no one
among the liberals or the EU establishment -
55:17 - 55:21supports the Kurds, because I think their
vision of democracy is more radical than -
55:21 - 55:25any liberal or contemporary European
vision of democracy. -
55:25 - 55:30And their vision of democracy is, of
course, called democratic Confederation -
55:30 - 55:36ism or the Kurdish communalism, which is
based on self-government, self-governance, -
55:36 - 55:41on autonomy, on political ecology, on
councils, on direct democracy. -
55:41 - 55:47Which brings me to what Yanis is saying.
What do we need in 2000 and just a moment. -
55:47 - 55:52You know, you know, who were the first who
defeated ISIS? The first defeat of ISIS? -
55:52 - 55:56That's it for the Kurds and the Kurdish
movement. -
55:56 - 55:58So instead of supporting them.
-
55:58 - 56:03What the West is doing, they're supporting
ISIS. So, so much about Western democracy. -
56:03 - 56:10You know, and and the cynicism of the
West, which is now you know talking about. -
56:10 - 56:14Prisons, which definitely are horrific in
Syria. -
56:14 - 56:18But they were themselves who invented. Abu
Ghraib and Guantanamo. I mean, that that's -
56:18 - 56:21also a kind of another double standard.
-
56:21 - 56:22Cynical play of the West.
-
56:22 - 56:27But what I wanted to say where I see a
future. Unfortunately, this future is -
56:27 - 56:32being destroyed as we speak are different
concepts of democracy. -
56:32 - 56:37Which exist which are more radical than
the parliamentary concept of democracy -
56:37 - 56:40than the liberal concept of democracy. And
it brings us back to what you Yanis said -
56:40 - 56:46about the grass roots movement. You know,
one of the reasons among many why the -
56:46 - 56:51Muslim Brotherhood came to power after
Mubarak was that they were actually pretty -
56:51 - 56:56successful in grassroots organizing. You
know in what the left was traditionally -
56:56 - 57:02doing in providing you know, mutual aid,
cooperation, medicine, if you miss it, -
57:02 - 57:05help with someone. You know what the Mafia
is doing in Italy, if you want another -
57:05 - 57:10parallel, which might sound crazy, but
what they are doing, in a way is working -
57:10 - 57:14on this level, which is not necessarily
part of the state. -
57:15 - 57:20Which also brings me to another point. I
think what we should be doing, I at least -
57:20 - 57:27will be doing it in 2025 is also try in a
modest way, as much as we can to construct -
57:27 - 57:28parallel institutions.
-
57:28 - 57:33I mean, DiEM25, in a way, is already a
parallel institution. Of course, you have -
57:34 - 57:37you know, we have hundreds of thousands of
members. -
57:37 - 57:41Not all are active and so on, but it is an
institution which functions in a way. But -
57:41 - 57:48what I'm saying also is different
institutions which can provide this basis -
57:49 - 57:50not just of resistance.
-
57:50 - 57:54And I wouldn't, definitely wouldn't call
it resilience because I hate it. It's a, -
57:54 - 57:58you know, it's a very liberal concept,
resilience. You know, we just have to -
57:58 - 58:03adapt to another climate crisis, to
another heat wave, to another genocide. -
58:03 - 58:06Let's be a bit more resilient. I mean,
fuck, fuck resilience. So it's definitely -
58:06 - 58:11not resilience. But I think what we should
be building is, I know it might sound -
58:11 - 58:17pretentious, some sort of archipelagos of
autonomy or what the Kurds call -
58:17 - 58:23confederation ism institutions which can
which, which are not necessary, which are -
58:23 - 58:26not part of the state or not part of the
market. Institutions, parallel -
58:26 - 58:31institutions, if you want which have I
mean, and the reactionary movements have -
58:31 - 58:35been quite successful into building these
parallel institutions. And the left. -
58:35 - 58:42Historically, but today, not anymore. So
institutions which provide real, concrete -
58:42 - 58:48help and meaning to people and at the same
time, they provide means of resistance to -
58:48 - 58:50the corporative sector.
-
58:50 - 58:56You know, I don't think it's enough to to
come back to this Luigi in the United -
58:56 - 59:00States. You know, I don't think it's
enough to kill a CEO of any company in the -
59:00 - 59:04same way, it wasn't enough when the
anarchists in Russia were killing one side -
59:04 - 59:08or the other. You know, you need you need
a movement. -
59:08 - 59:12You. And besides a movement, you also need
infrastructure. And that's, I think, what -
59:12 - 59:18is really missing in our camp, if you want
infrastructure, which is in villages, not -
59:18 - 59:21just in cities, infrastructure, which is
not just doing a big event in a theater, -
59:21 - 59:25but infrastructure in the way that you
don't even need social media anymore. But -
59:25 - 59:29you can communicate to people directly.
Because what I'm seeing as well is that -
59:29 - 59:35this phase of let's call it the left or
whatever, which was also organizing or -
59:35 - 59:38promoting their ideas or mobilizing via
social media. -
59:39 - 59:43I think it's a big question in which way
will that continue? You know, if our -
59:43 - 59:47feudal lord, for instance, is Elon Musk
and we know what he is doing at the -
59:47 - 59:50moment, you know. So these are all
questions which are open questions for -
59:50 - 59:562025. And I think the left, not to mention
the Greens, because I think the Greens -
59:56 - 60:00have lost all the credibility. They, they,
they had at least the European greens, -
60:00 - 60:05which doesn't mean that ecology, political
ecology is not important. -
60:05 - 60:09It's more important than ever precisely
because of the failure of the Greens. But -
60:09 - 60:14what we have to face. And the left as
well, but also the liberals is a major -
60:14 - 60:21defeat of democracy, a major defeat of of
for the planet itself because war, -
60:21 - 60:26climate, refugees, rising fascism, it all
comes together and it actually it's -
60:26 - 60:30completely intertwined. Thanks, Srećko.
-
60:30 - 60:36We seem to be talking about a left that
needs to move from mobilizing to -
60:36 - 60:39organizing. Am I right?
-
60:39 - 60:45And talking about grassroots institutions
like making being the change rather than -
60:45 - 60:48just trying to change things. Yanis would
you like to react to anything that Srećko -
60:48 - 60:53just said? And then I think we're reaching
the end of the hour. I, you know, thanks -
60:54 - 60:59for for mentioning the Kurds and their
confederation democracy, which is indeed a -
60:59 - 61:05remarkable, remarkable example of a
democracy that works, and which, of -
61:05 - 61:10course, then supports the choice that we
made as DiEM25 to retrieve the concept of -
61:10 - 61:14democracy, to take it away from the
so-called liberal Democrats who have -
61:14 - 61:18destroyed democracy like the Greens or
have destroyed the green movement. They -
61:18 - 61:23are brown, the Democrats are oligarchic,
and they have completely, completely -
61:23 - 61:25rubbished democracy as a concept.
-
61:25 - 61:34One small philosophical, Historical if you
want reaction. -
61:34 - 61:37Yeah. Of course. Just I expected it, so
just go for it. -
61:37 - 61:40Of course you did. You know, only too
well. -
61:41 - 61:46But, you know, it is true that Western
liberal capitalists like to bathe -
61:46 - 61:51themselves in the aura of ancient Athenian
democracy. -
61:51 - 61:55But it is not true that they modelled
themselves on the ancient Athenian -
61:55 - 61:56democratic model.
-
61:56 - 61:58No, their model is the Magna Carta.
-
61:59 - 62:00It is not ancient Athens.
-
62:00 - 62:03Ancient Athens is is used as a prop.
-
62:03 - 62:08But the real model is Magna Carta. And
what was Magna Carta was a deal between -
62:08 - 62:13the king and the barons so that they would
they would divide amongst themselves the -
62:13 - 62:17spoil of the land or the spoils of the
land, including the human beings. So it -
62:17 - 62:24was the right of barons to exploit slaves
or peasants, that the that the barons -
62:24 - 62:26forced the king to give them.
-
62:26 - 62:30This is what democracy is today. It's an
oligarchy with frequent elections, with -
62:30 - 62:33periodic elections. But it's not an easy
analysis because the analysis, even though -
62:33 - 62:38you had the inclusion of the women of the
metrics of, you know, there was a very -
62:38 - 62:42small, narrow band of men who were
citizens. Nevertheless, it had something -
62:42 - 62:47that today no liberal capitalist regime
will ever allow. -
62:47 - 62:53It was ruled by the poor because the
majority of the men who had the vote in -
62:53 - 62:57ancient Athens were poor, and they were
the Democrats, and they were against -
62:57 - 63:01elections. That's why they believed in
jury systems, in sortition. -
63:01 - 63:05So there's something very progressive
about ancient Athenian democracy, which -
63:06 - 63:10modern liberal democracy rejects
wholeheartedly. -
63:10 - 63:15They just want to take the Parthenon and,
you know, the concept of Pericles. Anyway, -
63:15 - 63:18this this is irrelevant. 111 final point.
-
63:20 - 63:26I have seen democracy in the most unlikely
of places I've seen democracy in certain -
63:26 - 63:28communities in the United States.
-
63:29 - 63:33You know, where they elect their judge or
their sheriff and they worked, you know, -
63:33 - 63:35especially poor communities.
-
63:35 - 63:40I've seen it in some in even in some
corporations, a corporation that I worked -
63:40 - 63:46for in the United States, which had a one
share, one person, one vote system, which -
63:46 - 63:49is the essence of economic democracy,
without which you can't have democracy. -
63:49 - 63:53You end up with oligarchy if you don't
have economic democracy. But it's, you -
63:53 - 63:57know, tiny little what you said, the
archipelago of tiny little experiments. -
63:57 - 64:02I've seen democracy in the townhall of
Shanghai a few months ago in Shanghai, in -
64:02 - 64:06China, people say, oh, what do you mean,
China? Chinese Communist Party autocracy. -
64:06 - 64:09Yes, there is autocracy. There is
totalitarianism. There are political -
64:09 - 64:15prisoners. There is all that. But if you
go to a as if you had been with me at the -
64:15 - 64:21Shanghai town Hall, and you saw one hole
after the other full of people -
64:21 - 64:26representing neighborhoods of Shanghai
debating the laws of their neighbourhood -
64:26 - 64:31and effectively together in a
participatory way, writing the legislation -
64:31 - 64:36that rules over their own neighbourhoods.
You see a grassroots democracy at the -
64:36 - 64:39level of the grassroots of the
municipality, which we don't have in -
64:39 - 64:41Europe under liberal capitalism.
-
64:41 - 64:45No. Of course, then nobody has the right
to criticize the Communist Party, right? -
64:45 - 64:52So these pockets of democratic experiments
with, I think, as you said, the Kurdish -
64:52 - 64:58experiment being at the top of it, give us
the sense that the only thing that stops -
64:58 - 65:03us from having democracy is oligarchic
power, the power of big capital and the -
65:03 - 65:05power of cloud capital.
-
65:05 - 65:09Where I may have a small disagreement, is
that I think we need to use social media. -
65:09 - 65:13There is no way of not using social media.
It's like saying that, you know, in the -
65:13 - 65:1918th century, 17th century that because
the press is controlled by the church we -
65:19 - 65:23don't want the press. Of course we want
the press. We just want to usurp it and -
65:23 - 65:26take it and print our own pamphlets.
-
65:26 - 65:29Radical, subversive pamphlets.
-
65:29 - 65:32Similarly, as we as we speak now, we speak
through zoom. -
65:32 - 65:34We speak through YouTube.
-
65:34 - 65:39What? We shouldn't do that because YouTube
is part of cloud capital of the techno -
65:39 - 65:43feudal empire. No, of course we should.
What? We should do more to use their -
65:43 - 65:47weapons against them in exactly the same
way that the whole point about the Marxist -
65:47 - 65:52left has been to take over the machines,
not to break them up. Thank you. -
65:52 - 65:56Yanis. And I'm aware that we've gone a
little bit over, and Srećko is soon going -
65:56 - 66:01to be overrun with small people or perhaps
one small person. -
66:01 - 66:05So can we move to the last segment where
we. -
66:05 - 66:08I just want to ask, starting with you,
Srećko like what? -
66:08 - 66:11What works of art left a mark on you this
year? -
66:11 - 66:14Books, movies, anything?
-
66:16 - 66:21Well, after all this discussion, I would
also love to respond to Yanis. -
66:21 - 66:24But next time on social media.
-
66:24 - 66:30Just to add, I think of course I'm always
for subversion, as you know, and using the -
66:30 - 66:34weapons against those who created them.
But I think at the same time, we should be -
66:34 - 66:39creating our own, our own infrastructure
and platform, which so far wasn't that -
66:39 - 66:43successful. But that's a completely
different not different topic. But it -
66:43 - 66:51would be a long discussion regarding yeah,
arts books theory and to, to move on this -
66:51 - 66:53kind of more gentle topics.
-
66:53 - 66:56Well, I've been reading a lot in the last
months. -
66:56 - 66:58I had this luck to do.
-
66:58 - 67:04So I was rereading Well, now it's not that
new anymore. -
67:04 - 67:08The book by David Wengrow and David
Graeber, the Dawn of everything because I -
67:08 - 67:13think it really beautifully shows. In
which way? Until now, at least until their -
67:13 - 67:19book, we were not even able to imagine or
to prove and thanks. -
67:19 - 67:22We thank God we have this archaeologist,
David Wengrow. -
67:23 - 67:29In which way even prehistoric societies
were in many respects more radical than -
67:29 - 67:34our today's society when it comes to
communal living to democracy. -
67:35 - 67:42And I think it's a very important book
also opposed to, you know, Harari, Pinker -
67:42 - 67:47and all these progressivist linear
thinking, you know, which would then end -
67:47 - 67:51up in Fukuyama at the end of history, as
if the whole history of humanity was -
67:51 - 67:55progressing you know, from hunter
gatherers through the agricultural -
67:55 - 68:02revolution to finally, finally arrive at
liberal democracy which, as we have -
68:02 - 68:07discussed today, is nothing but actually a
power game of the oligarchy today at the -
68:07 - 68:12same time, I've been reading books by
Christine Ross. I think both books are -
68:12 - 68:13published by verso.
-
68:13 - 68:18One is communal luxury about the Paris
Commune, and the other one is a communal -
68:18 - 68:24form which goes from the Paris Commune to
movements in Japan to the Zads in France, -
68:24 - 68:29which actually develops, I think, a very
interesting theoretical thought which was -
68:29 - 68:36left behind you know, a century or two
centuries ago when there was a very -
68:36 - 68:41interesting discussion, both from Marxists
including Marx and anarchists, Proudhon, -
68:41 - 68:46Kropotkin and others. Elisée Reclus about
the meaning of the Paris Commune. And I -
68:46 - 68:50think Kristin Ross beautifully makes a
point, which we tried to make today, but -
68:50 - 68:56she puts it more she puts it, puts it
better in the context of the Paris -
68:56 - 69:00Commune, in which way we have to actually
in the here and now create a sort of -
69:00 - 69:05communal form which, you know, as soon as
you hear it, you can see, you know, the -
69:05 - 69:12communes of Paris 68, you can see
Bertolucci, the his movie The Dreamers and -
69:12 - 69:16how it ended up in the commodification of
capitalism. But this is not the kind of -
69:16 - 69:18communion she is talking about.
-
69:19 - 69:23Also, last days I've been reading this
nice small book. It's called Gramsci at -
69:23 - 69:28the sea which is a book about the
importance of the oceans. -
69:28 - 69:32And, you know, it talks about deep sea
mining and in which way the oceans have -
69:32 - 69:38become you know, this territory of
primitive accumulation, if you want, or or -
69:38 - 69:42the privatization of the commons. It's a
very interesting and important book, I -
69:42 - 69:48think also if you read it parallelly, with
the geopolitical situation which is -
69:48 - 69:53unfolding in front of our eyes or screens
in the Mediterranean Sea, but also in the -
69:53 - 69:58Pacific and I think that's, you know, the
if we talked about the previous historical -
69:58 - 70:02sequence during our conversation, I think
that's the next historical sequence or -
70:02 - 70:07future sequence which is very connected to
oceans and to future islands, but also -
70:07 - 70:12geopolitical interests in the
Mediterranean and in the Pacific. So, -
70:12 - 70:16yeah, these were the, the the the, the
books, but I've been. -
70:16 - 70:18Yeah, also reading a lot.
-
70:19 - 70:22Some other books I quite liked actually.
-
70:22 - 70:27Yeah. Yanis. I think he lives on the same
island as you. James Bridle's book, Ways -
70:27 - 70:32of Seeing, Ways of Being Sorry, John
Berger is ways of seeing, and he talks -
70:32 - 70:34about ways of beings.
-
70:34 - 70:39And I had the opportunity to have him at
our Isa school event on the island of EAS -
70:39 - 70:44two months ago. It was a very inspiring
lecture because I think he he he -
70:44 - 70:49especially when we are paralyzed by the
current moment of atrocities all across -
70:49 - 70:51the world and by a total war.
-
70:51 - 70:56He speaks about broadening our senses of
perception and taking into account, I -
70:56 - 71:01mean, something what Peter Kropotkin was
doing already a great geographer with -
71:01 - 71:05investigating the animal world and showing
in which way mutual aid cooperation -
71:05 - 71:08already exists among other species.
-
71:08 - 71:12James Bridle is doing this also with
plants. -
71:12 - 71:14With machines.
-
71:14 - 71:18And I think that's very important to get
rid of this very narcissistic, -
71:18 - 71:25anthropocentric position in which humanity
today is thinking that with the end of us, -
71:25 - 71:28it will be the end of everything. It
won't. -
71:28 - 71:30And that's good news.
-
71:30 - 71:33But that doesn't mean that on a daily
level, we shouldn't be active and -
71:33 - 71:38mobilizing as much as we can. But I think
we should also broaden our senses of -
71:38 - 71:44perception and sensibilities to things
which are not just geopolitics, wars as -
71:44 - 71:48much as we have to mobilize against them.
Yeah. That's great, but I watched movies. -
71:48 - 71:50I went to whatever.
-
71:50 - 71:51I talk for hours.
-
71:51 - 71:56But Yanis, I'm very curious to see what
you have been reading or watching. Go for -
71:56 - 72:00it. Except Star Trek, which Star Trek is
not new? -
72:00 - 72:01Yeah, I know it is.
-
72:02 - 72:06It's like I wouldn't mention Das Kapital
in the same way I want to use Star Trek -
72:06 - 72:10here, but now I've got I've got a book
here for you folks, because I think what's -
72:10 - 72:18happening in India over the last ten
years, the demise of cosmopolitanism, of -
72:18 - 72:23secularism and the rise of radical
neofascist Hinduism. -
72:24 - 72:25This is a book here.
-
72:25 - 72:29Put it for you. The incarcerations by Al
Basha. It's a very well, beautifully -
72:29 - 72:36written book on the political prisoners
who are languishing in jail for opposing -
72:36 - 72:42the conversion of India into an axis of
the Trumpist, nationalist international. -
72:43 - 72:47I recommend it thoroughly. When it comes
to movies, it has to be Ken Loach's Old -
72:47 - 72:49Oak. The old oak.
-
72:51 - 72:58It's a typical masterpiece by the man who
has produced so many masterpieces in the -
72:58 - 73:05last 30 years, Ken Loach, our great
comrade DiEM25 member and friend but -
73:05 - 73:06primarily Ken Loach.
-
73:07 - 73:12The movie is fantastic, and I highly
recommend it because it deals with the -
73:12 - 73:14question of migration.
-
73:14 - 73:22The story, which I'll just brief without
spoiling the movie for you, is taking -
73:22 - 73:28place in a godforsaken Yorkshire village
that was devastated by the miners strike. -
73:29 - 73:33Half, half the people left. The other half
are unemployed, and they've become -
73:33 - 73:41Brexiteers. They've become they've turned
their their discontent into into racism. -
73:41 - 73:46And suddenly there are these Syrian
refugees, Syrian refugees that arrive in -
73:46 - 73:50the middle of a devastated place amongst
people who hate the foreigners simply -
73:50 - 73:54because they need to hate something. And
there are the divisions between these -
73:54 - 73:58people, between the people who supported
the miners strike or the strikebreakers. -
73:58 - 74:01And now you have the Syrians and how they
all come together. -
74:01 - 74:04And you and Loach is fantastic.
-
74:04 - 74:08While he tells the progressive story that
he needs to tell, he makes it a human -
74:08 - 74:12story where you understand everyone in
there, and in the end, you know, you come -
74:12 - 74:19out of the movie feeling feelings of joy
that are very rare in these days. -
74:19 - 74:23So I've given you a book, I've given you a
movie. I'll give you a series as well, I'm -
74:23 - 74:25afraid, on Apple TV.
-
74:25 - 74:29So, you know, bad luck is part of techno
feudalism. -
74:29 - 74:30It's called silo.
-
74:31 - 74:35It it's science fiction.
-
74:35 - 74:39Unfortunately, very soon it may be science
reality. -
74:40 - 74:45Because humans live in silos, dug deeply
into the ground, because the earth is -
74:45 - 74:47poisoned, the air is poisoned.
-
74:47 - 74:56And you can see how underground we are
replicating structures of hierarchy, of -
74:56 - 74:59lies, of fake news, of oppression.
-
74:59 - 75:07And and, you know, if you really want to
come to terms with the fact that we are -
75:07 - 75:08poisoning the Earth.
-
75:09 - 75:15And what that means for us, I think, is a
pretty good series to watch. Thank you. -
75:15 - 75:22Yanis. I have a recommendation of my own,
actually. I mean, it's from two, 2019, but -
75:22 - 75:25I, I only just saw it. It's called Years
and Years. -
75:25 - 75:27Six episodes.
-
75:27 - 75:33Brilliant, scary, science fiction,
dystopic, but also inspiring and so -
75:33 - 75:37prescient. Considering it was made in
2019. -
75:37 - 75:41It talks about refugees, the Ukraine
crisis, China, everything. And it's it's -
75:41 - 75:43not perfect, but it's very anxiety
inducing. -
75:43 - 75:47Wonderful to watch some recommendations
from you guys out there. -
75:47 - 75:54Sam Wilkinson recommends Fossil Capital by
Andreas Malm Libra recommends the film by -
75:54 - 75:59John London Martins Eden okay to let go
notes that Wengrow who you mentioned -
75:59 - 76:03Srećko has some good YouTube has a good
YouTube channel. -
76:03 - 76:09He recommends Future Primitive revisited,
a book by John Zerzan about primitivism. -
76:09 - 76:14He says it's the only way that we will be
able to survive as a species. P McGee -
76:14 - 76:18recommends Joanna macy, the environmental
activist and scholar of Buddhism, anything -
76:18 - 76:23that she has written. And that's it for
your recommendations. Allow me just to -
76:23 - 76:27finish with a couple more comments. I
should have read these up before. Just -
76:27 - 76:33more generally that I've been collecting
over the last half an hour. H.d. -
76:33 - 76:37says we need to return to city states for
true democracy. Democracy to flourish. The -
76:37 - 76:41freak contradicts him and says localism
can't tackle the large problems of our -
76:41 - 76:46time, including climate change. Mighty
insect asks, what are the robust, -
76:46 - 76:49self-organized structures that allow us to
collaborate across all kinds of borders? A -
76:49 - 76:52genuine question because you're looking
for best practices? Well, I can tell you -
76:52 - 76:56that this is something that we're doing
actively at DiEM25. We're going to be -
76:56 - 77:00doing more of it. I'm personally very
invested in this topic. Best practice, -
77:00 - 77:06good tactics. So please stay tuned to our
YouTube channel. Click the Hit the Bell -
77:06 - 77:10icon. We've got interviews with activists
who have done serious good work, and we're -
77:10 - 77:15definitely into cataloging those and
putting forward good tactics for everyone -
77:15 - 77:19to emulate. And Masshouse says that the
left should worry less about coming up -
77:19 - 77:22with the correct ideological line and more
about building popular support, which is -
77:22 - 77:25capable of putting pressure on
politicians. We take stances towards no -
77:25 - 77:27end, I would agree.
-
77:27 - 77:34Finally, TJ says, My God, Srećko needs to
appear on more live streams and I heartily -
77:34 - 77:35agree with that.
-
77:35 - 77:37Thank you so much.
-
77:38 - 77:43Yeah, yeah, see you in a year. See you in
a year or something. No, no, I mean, you -
77:43 - 77:47mean in, in January 20th, a few days in a
few days, right. No. -
77:47 - 77:49One last one last suggestion.
-
77:49 - 77:52It came to my mind. One of the best
documentaries I saw this year was -
77:52 - 77:54soundtrack for a coup.
-
77:55 - 78:00It's a documentary by, I think, Belgian
filmmakers about the coup d'état in Congo. -
78:01 - 78:05And it's amazing because it talks about
the role of jazz. -
78:05 - 78:11Resources. I mean, at some point it was
also nuclear uranium which was used for -
78:11 - 78:15the bomb in Hiroshima and so on. It all
came from Congo. Today we know what's -
78:15 - 78:20happening in Congo. And I think it's it's
a very good movie. I didn't watch I will -
78:20 - 78:21sounds very depressing.
-
78:22 - 78:25Years and years I watched and I think,
yeah, in my memory, it was a very good -
78:25 - 78:27series. Cool.
-
78:27 - 78:29That's brilliant. Brilliant.
-
78:29 - 78:31Well, thank you guys.
-
78:31 - 78:34Thank you. Yanis. Thank you, Srećko. And
thank you to you out there. If you would -
78:34 - 78:38like to get more involved with DiEM25, if
you like what you've heard, please go to -
78:38 - 78:43diem25.org/join or slash donate to give us
funds to keep us going. -
78:44 - 78:47Keep the lights on. We've got no big
backers, so we depend on people like you, -
78:47 - 78:50small donors, and see you next year.
-
78:50 - 78:56The. Just click the YouTube bell icon to
find out when the next live stream will be -
78:56 - 79:01up, but it won't be long. Thank you. Take
care. Stay safe and happy Christmas season -
79:01 - 79:02to you. Bye.
Show all