Dr Katie Novak and Tom Thibodeau - UDL for Instructional Designers

(upbeat music)

- What's up everybody?

Dr. Hobson here and
welcome in to episode six

of the "Dr. Luke Hobson Podcast."

My purpose is to help you

with anything about online learning.

I cover topics like instructional
design, online teaching,

supporting students, and more.

At the end of the day, I'm here

to help you learn tangible
skills you can apply

to your career and classroom.

Today's episode is a real special one.

I had the privilege of
talking to Dr. Katie Novak

and Tom Thibodeau.

They are the authors of "UDL
and the Cloud How to design

and Deliver Online Education Using

Universal Design for Learning."

What's UDL?

You're about to find out

and it's going to change
the way you design your

next course.

This episode was ridiculously nerdy

and of course, a lot of fun.

Before we go any further into
today's show, I want to talk

to you about Idle Courses Academy.

The number one question I
have been asked lately is,

how do I become an instructional designer?

I was sending folks to
a number of resources,

but they weren't good enough.

I wanted a platform that was
going to give people structure,

guidance, and support from experts,

and I found that with
Idle Courses Academy.

Dr. Sergeant, her team,
have done an amazing job

with focusing on what's important

to be an instructional
designer like storyboarding,

ID models and theories,
interviewing subject matter experts

and focusing on project
management tactics.

They even cover how to make your resume

and portfolio stand out from the crowd

and have an impressive graduation
rate with their students

working at organizations
like Salesforce, GM,

and Amazon.

Instructional Design has
become the number one

sought after job

because of every organization

transitioning to online learning.

So if you were serious about
becoming an instructional

designer or looking to
further develop your ID skills

and build out your portfolio,
I would highly encourage you

to check out Idle.

Check out the link in the show
notes below to learn more.

Now let's get back to the show.

So here they are, Dr. Katie
Novak and Tom Thibodeau

from "UDL in the Cloud."

Thank you so much both of
you for coming on my podcast.

- You're entirely welcome.

It's great to be here.

- Yeah, happy to chat.

Happy to nerd out always.

- This is gonna be the, by far,

the nerdiest podcast episode.

I have so far to date,
like without a doubt at all

because of when I first started off

as an instructional designer.

Well, I am so glad to have
both of you on today, is

that I was looking for a
mentor in instructional design,

and I found someone, I asked
her, I was just like, you know,

if I want to get my feet wet
for instructional design,

what book should I read as
far as for just starting off?

And she recommended your
book, "UDL in the Cloud."

And that's how this started my career.

And to this day, at MIT, I am still using

what I learned from your book even now.

- Fantastic.

- That, I mean, that is
so exciting to be a part

of a framework that
has such staying power.

I think that a lot of the things
we see in education today,

there's, people are so skeptical of like,

how quickly is this gonna pass over?

And, you know, being able to,
you know, encourage people

to adopt a framework that
has literally decades

and decades of research.

And there will never be a
time that we don't say we need

to design for the learners
that we have, not the design,

you know, the students
who we wish that we had.

And that's what's so cool
about it is, you know,

every time we get hit by
something in education,

it's like, okay, this is another

barrier we have to eliminate.

- Yeah and it doesn't matter what the age

of the student is, it
doesn't matter the type

of institution you're teaching at,

the student should always be at the center

of everything we do.

And it is not our job really to try

and teach just one of them.

Our job is to teach all of them.

And the only way to do
that is to recognize

that they're all individuals
and that they all have unique

or specific needs

or wants that we can
address through the use

of universal design.

- When I finished the book
that were certainly some

of my main takeaways,

but as soon as I stopped, I was just like,

this just makes sense.

Like, why aren't, why
isn't everyone doing this?

Like, it just of course I want to focus on

the student experience,
provide every avenue

and opportunity for someone to learn

and to deliver the best type

of online learning experience possible.

So why wouldn't I do this?

So before we get too far into that though,

can you just tell the
audience a bit more about

yourselves and your backgrounds?

- Sure.

Kate, why don't you start?

- Okay, so I'm Katie Novak

and I am a lifer in education.

I've been in education
now for almost 20 years,

and I started off as a teacher

and I went to get my masters degree

and my doctoral degree in
curriculum and teaching.

And as a teacher, I had
the amazing opportunity

to be trained in UDL by
Dr. David Rose himself,

who was the founder of Cast.

And as soon as I learned about it, it kind

of felt like exactly like what
you're saying, Luke is like,

why am I not doing this already?

And I think that we have
this very public rhetoric in

education that like,
you know, all means all

but like, we don't meet
the needs of all students

until we meet the needs of
students with disabilities

until we meet the needs of our black

and brown students until we
meet the needs of our students

who are non-traditional learners.

And I think that for so
long it was, you know,

you were a good student
if you fit into the system

and now we're recognizing

that you're a great teacher
if you can make sure

that everyone fits into your class.

And so when I learned that it was like,

you know, hell hath no fury.

I was like all-in.

And I think that, you know, the learning

for me has just been
how many more barriers,

the more I learn about this,
the more I listen to people

who struggle with their
own school experience,

the more barriers I'm always cognizant of

how do we proactively partner

with people to eliminate those.

And I'm also the daughter of
my co-presenter Tom Thibodeau.

So I have always been,
you know, I've been raised

by two educators, both
my parents or teachers.

And I think that I always
had the view that, you know,

we, our job as educators
is not to fix students.

Our job as educators is to
design our curriculum so

our students can thrive.

And I think that that is a
huge mind shift that a lot

of people still have not gone
through yet in their careers.

- Yeah, so I got started in
education right out of college.

You know, I have a
secondary English education

degree from Rhode Island College.

Graduated in 1975 in my student
teaching experience at a

very, very nice suburban high school.

I decided that I can't do this

because we're not teaching at all.

We're managing students.

Felt like we were hurting
students throughout the day

that there was so little
time to actually teach

or educate that, you know,

I decided I was just not going to do this.

So I finished my degree and
I went back to grad school

and I chose broadcasting.

And then I became a video
specialist and a video editor

and videographer for a
production company for 12 years

when I saw an ad for a
part-time teaching person

at New England Institute of Technology

and their video, their brand new

video production department.

And I had three young kids

and I said, wow, a little extra
money would always be nice.

So I started teaching at
night, two, three nights a week

until a full-time job opened up,

coincidentally at the same time

as my production company was having some

financial difficulties.

And I switched over and I've
been there for 30 years now.

So it's been a wonderful
background to come into,

to back into education
with, because lo and behold,

when you find out about
something like UDL,

which Katie introduced me to, you know,

having video in your back
pocket is a great way to provide

an alternative resource for your students.

And it has been since,

I think we started working
on the book maybe in the

beginning of 2014,

and then, you know,
published the book in 2016

and have been working in UDL
ever since I've been doing

it at the college level.

Katie's been doing at the K
through 12 and more level.

And we have collaborated
with quite a few things,

but fortunately I still get
to learn about UDL from Katie

because I edit all of her videos.

(host laughing)

- That's awesome, as
soon as I read your book

and you know, I was talking about

how we're gonna come onto this
podcast, I called my dad too,

just telling him there's another
nerdy family out there like

ours because same thing, my
dad's in higher education.

He has been a dean for a number of years,

except my poor mom is not in education.

So we are just going back

and forth at the dinner table
talking about things from

competency based to project,
you know, like, you name it,

we've talked about everything

and she's just sitting there like.

- More peas?

- She works, yeah, so
she works at a school,

but not necessarily for this,
she's in administration.

So it's definitely a
little bit interesting

around the dinner table
talking about these things.

So we've talked just a bit
about UDL from a couple

of different points and stances,

but Katie, can you give
me an exact definition

and just describe to
the general population

what UDL really does mean and stands for?

- Sure, so it's a
framework where it asks us

to think really flexibly about the way

that we design curriculum
really focused on firm

goals and flexible means.

So we cannot design learning
experiences if we don't start

at the get go, really
asking ourselves what is it

that all students need to know

and be able to do as a result
of this learning experience.

And once we do that, it really opens us up

to recognize variability, to
start to consider barriers

that would be present if
we design things in a one

size fits all way.

And then thinking about multiple pathways

or the multiple UDL principles, which,

what are the different ways
that we can engage students?

What are the different ways
that we can teach students?

And what are the different ways
that we can essentially see

what students know?

And so when you think
about that really simply,

when you look up a definition,
it will often say a framework

that flexibly designs curriculum.

So all learners will have options

and choices for how they're going to learn

and how they're going
to share what they know.

And I think that in some ways

the two critical components about that,

that must be truly embraced
first is the concept

of variability and the
concept of barriers.

Because UDL is not like a fun meter,

it's not like choice
for the sake of choice.

And I have seen choice menus
go like straight down the tubes

somewhere fast because it's really about

what are the pathways

that would allow everyone despite barriers

that they may face to end up
at the same very rigorous,

very challenging endpoint.

And, you know, and great
instructional design has

to start with those goals.

And so, you know, there's
a lot of of curriculum work

that I see out there where
it's, you know, students are,

they have the choice, but
it's like the choices have

are so unrelated

that they wouldn't possibly
land everybody to kind

of the end this the same end point.

And so, you know, I think
that in order to truly

to design well, we first have
to realize what are our goals?

We have to say, you know,
what is the variability

of our learners and what types
of of barriers may they face?

And how do we provide additional choices

to eliminate those barriers?

And I think some people just
jump straight to like, oh,

I get it, we're gonna add choices.

And you know, a classic example would be,

you know, oh, this is gonna be great

because when I have a synchronous
Zoom that everybody has

to be on, you can either
do a breakout room

or you can do the chat or
you can do something else.

And it's like, but what about people

who don't have broadband strong enough

to be a part of a synchronous Zoom?

Or what about students
who are learn, you know,

who are working at that exact time

or you know, who are watching
their children at that time?

So it's not just, look, I
offered a lot of things.

It's that I thought about the barriers

and a barrier for some students
is gonna be synchronous

learning that requires a very high quality

broadband internet connection.

- And another thing which is very,

very important about UDL is

that it's a standards
based framework where it's

so important that every teacher comes up

with their objectives
and their goals first.

But a lot of situations from
Kindergarten all the way

through higher ed is that

the standards are given
to the teacher, you know,

that this is what we want
this course to teach,

or these are the standards
for the sixth grade

or whatever they might be.

And a lot of people get
confused with that, well,

if I give too many choices,
what about the easy choices?

You know, isn't that going
to reduce the standards

and the, you know, they have to stop

and realize that the
standards do not change.

We're just giving people options

and choices as how they get there.

So if you're creating options

and choices that are too easy,

that are not following the standards,

you're not doing this right.

So it's a bit of a challenge

to really truly embrace all
of this right at the beginning

because, you know it sounds
too easy just to make choices.

Making the right choices is
where you earn your money

and how you craft those
for your students is

so terribly important.

- So let's start from the
beginning as we just talked about

that as far as for the barriers,
the challenges, everything

that we were describing.

And I know the first
chapter talks about that,

and as soon as I was reading the book

and I got to see all the different
types of student profiles

and their own individual barriers

as an instructional designer,

it was almost like panic immediately.

I was like, how do I
design for all these people

who come from all different walks of life

and have all these
different types of things?

I was like, where do I really begin?

And this was certainly a challenge

of mine when first starting off

to be an instructional designer, is

that what's the very first step?

And you actually mentioned
that as far as for,

or the first step is to
have a growth mindset.

You talked about Carol Dweck
and her work out of Stanford.

So with this growth mindset as
that type of a top priority,

how does that mindset lead to
a well-designed online course

and thinking about the student experience?

- Hmm, good question.

Well, first off, it sets
you up in the right position

to not be satisfied with what you've got

and where you're at, but
where you want to go.

You know, that's that growth mindset.

It's not the grade, it's not the quality

of my PowerPoint presentations,
it's not any of that.

It's the end result of what
the student's going to learn.

So I think, you know,
identifying the students as part

of the process, but a lot of
times you don't get a chance

to do that until, you
know, the course has begun.

You know, they walk into
the class, you know,

but you already have to
have something, you know,

your course has to be designed
at that point in time.

So how do you do this with that in mind?

And if you have 30 kids in your class,

you also can't design an individual

curriculum for each of them.

It is, you know, impossible.

That's all you would ever do in terms

of curriculum creation, if
that's what you're gonna do.

So you have to figure out a
way to present your course

or your curriculum so that
it is accessible from all

of these different angles.

And there aren't 30
different angles in reality.

There are, you know, groups
of students in the classroom.

And you're also going to be in a situation

where you don't want
to define it for them.

You want to actually
give them real choices.

And that means that you're
going to spend a lot

of time investigating what
these choices should be

and finding the resources
to offer these choices.

And then you are actually going
to let the students choose.

And a lot of instructors,
teachers, faculty, have a lot

of trouble with that whole concept.

What do you mean we're
gonna let them choose?

And, you know, it's kind
of like the first step

of engagement if, you
know, if we can't get them

to find something they, like,

if we're just gonna force
everything on them, boy,

we're walking uphill.

We're pushing that rock
uphill, like Sisyphus right?

We're gonna always be
struggling against this,

but if we can get everybody
pushing this rock up the hill

with us, hmm, we're,
we're gonna be golden.

- And I think one of the things too, one

of the first steps I think
that people can recognize is

that we can predict a
lot of these barriers.

You don't need to meet your
3100, 700, I don't care

how many learners there
are, you know, as a somebody

who designs for adults.

That is what I do now,
I am not in a classroom

with students, so I design a
lot of professional learning

and graduate courses for adults.

I know right away that
given the wide group

of students who are gonna
be a part of any course

that I create, there's gonna
be students who are very,

very strong readers,

and there's gonna be some
learners who still, you know,

who will struggle with ba you
know, basic comprehension.

And so having a text
heavy course when your one

of your objectives is not
truly teaching about, you know,

like if you're doing like
a contemporary literary

analysis, maybe one

of your objectives is actually
about reading critically.

That is generally not the goal of courses.

It's about like building
content and building skills.

And yet we still assign, oh my gosh,

the over reliance on
printed text is ridiculous.

It is.

- Mind boggling.

- And I actually had a
conversation the other day

with a group of high school teachers

who said to me, but doesn't
every student have to read?

And I said, no, no, they don't.

Is reading valuable?

Absolutely.

Do I, you know, do I
believe that it's a skill

that should be explicitly
taught throughout,

you know, high school
when there are standards

focused on that?

Absolutely.

But the reality is you can
be a brilliant engineer,

carpenter, lawyer,

doctor, I mean, and anything
in the world, if you know how

to be resourceful and access something

that would provide you with
an audio version of a text.

And so, so many people are like,

I'm not gonna offer an audio version

as if students can't get it themselves.

And so, you know, the
reality is, is that you have

to be really flexible.

I can predict I'm gonna
have adult learners

who are gonna experience
significant conflicts

with getting work done on a
very, very tight schedule.

Most of them are working other jobs.

They have families, you know,

especially now I teach teachers
who are trying to adapt

to COVID and to say, you know,

that like it must be done in this way

by this date is setting
learners up for failure

because I know what
people are dealing with.

And I think that if people were
really honest, you would say

that I could predict if I
were to get 100 students,

that there's gonna be some students

who are gonna struggle
with reading comprehension.

There's gonna be some students who

struggle with organization.

There'll be some students who
struggle to meet deadlines.

There'll be some students
will have a hard time

carving these things out.

If I know that, then it's my
responsibility to design for

that proactively and then to
continually ask for feedback

to co-design better
choices as we move forward.

- Absolutely.

Go ahead, Tom.

- I just finished the course.

Yes, last night actually.

It was a one week intensive course

on Universal Design For
Learning and online courses.

And I had only seven
people in it this time,

which was wonderful.

And they were a couple of
music teachers, a couple

of composition teachers, you
know, a wide mix of people,

all professional educators.

And many of them were
starting off saying, you know,

I'm a very traditional teacher
and I'm taking this course

because I've heard that there
are other ways of doing this.

Amazing.

But, you know, they
would show their lessons

and you know, it was step
one, read this, step two,

write this, step three, read
this, step four write this.

And it was right from, you know,

the 1940s it felt like in terms

of a sequential learning system.

And they were thinking that, well,

I'm scaffolding the learning,
which is a really good idea,

but they were giving no choice whatsoever.

And as I looked at one
instructor's resources, I said,

well, I think the thing
you have to realize here is

what you are doing is you're
actually, you are doing it

to the students, not with the students.

And because you're doing
it to the students,

they have absolutely no
buy-in into any of this.

And they are maybe even going
to do well in this course,

but they will not remember any of this

because you've disengaged
them from the process.

- As soon as everything
happened with COVID-19,

the first thing that
I did was that I tried

to put myself in the
learner's shoes to be able

to figure out how would I, as someone

who really does genuinely
enjoy being a nerd

and loves learning, I still
like to go to physical courses,

I've taken hybrid and whatnot,

but what would it be like
if I had to sit in a chair

for about six

to nine hours a day actually
doing online courses

that were not designed well

and that there were remote learning

because there was online learning,

which is not the same
interchangeable as remote learning

where because of the nature of the world,

many educators were only
given about two to four weeks

to take their traditional
face-to-face classes

and then make them into some form

of the online remote presence.

And clearly as we're talking
about all these things,

that's really not a lot of time,

especially if you don't
know what you're doing,

if you weren't trained
on how to really do this.

So I took a course on Meta learning

and I was just sitting there
and I really enjoyed it, but

after the first hour I was like, oh man,

because Tom, it was just like
what you were saying, like

between reading essay,

watch a video read essay discussion board.

And I was like, ah, no,
you, you've read there's

so much better ways to do this.

And it sent me down this path
of looking at different types

of articles and blog posts of
not the educator's mindset,

but what about the student mindset?

And I wasn't seeing a lot
of that as it was happening.

It was much more of teacher burnout, which

of course I understand
this is a nutty time,

but you know, what about the students?

So from the UDL framework

and that perspective, how do we

as educators think about their mindsets

and then meet them where they are

to support them and to motivate 'em?

I would love to hear your
perspectives on that.

- Oh, as Katie just said,
you know, you have to predict

to start off with what you are
going to have in your course.

Secondly, then you then have
to listen to your students

and you have to actively seek
their feedback just as much

as you have to actively give yours.

Because, you know, especially
in an online environment

where you know, you're not
face-to-face with them,

you may never see them again, so to speak.

You know, if a kid is
always working at the time

that you are offering your
Zoom sessions for instance,

you know, you're never going
to see their facial reactions

or be able to read their body language

or any of that stuff, which a lot

of faculty really rely
upon in the classroom.

So, you know, you're gonna
have to predict some things.

You're gonna have to provide some options

based upon those predictions.

You're gonna have to get their feedback

and you're gonna have to be flexible.

And that flexibility is
not only with the due date

and it's going to go into
the length of the papers

if they have to do some writing

or the length of the project,

the extensiveness of the project.

You really have to be flexible

and then work with the student

based upon their real needs.

You know, that kind of a back

and forth I think is really, really

so important in the process.

And if you are not lecturing
in your, in any of this,

you're going to have a lot of
time to be able to actually

interact with the students.

And that interaction is going to give you

the real information that you need

to make everything better for everybody.

And remember, with Universal
Design for Learning,

once you find something for some student,

you're gonna make it
available for all students

because what is essential
for some is good for all.

- And one of the other things is ask.

Like I just finished
teaching a graduate course

and during the first module I said,

if I have concerns about any of your work

or I have some ideas or feedback

or you're not checking in, what's the best

way for me to contact you?

Do you want a phone call?

Do you want me to FaceTime you?

Do you want me to send you a text?

Do you want me to send you an email?

And it's amazing the
variability of what people want.

And I literally created in my planner,

I still have a pen for goodness sake.

I have a little planner
and in the beginning

of the planner, I literally
make a little chart

and I say, okay, these are the
people who want me to text.

Here's their phone numbers,
here's the people who want me

to email.

And then every week when
I look at the course

and see, you know, I look in
Canvas, I see, you know, who,

what the participant dashboard look like,

have I heard from them?

And I will literally go down the list

and some of them are like, send me a video

and I'll literally pick up my
phone and send 'em a video.

And you do that a couple of times

and you build relationships
and teaching is emotional work.

This is about relationships.

And a lot of the time, again, as I'll say,

I'm concerned about you, you know,

your participation was down this week.

Tell me what's happening in your house?

Tell me what you can do?

Are there any options

that would've allowed
you to do this better?

And once I find that out, it's available

to everyone in the class
the following week.

And at the end of the course,
every single student in

that class, every single
one a 100% finished the

course and got an an either
an A or a B in the course,

but anyone was allowed to
revise anything as many times

as they wished, I had,

I ended up putting in
live Zoom sessions in lieu

of exploring some of the module content

because people were like, I just feel

like I need to see you.

And the course was
changing every single week

and at the end everyone was
like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry

that I had to turn in these things late

or I didn't get to revise that.

And I was, I was like,
there, there is no apologies.

This is life.

Like you are all administrators
creating a school district

that is preparing for like
emergency remote teaching.

And because of UDL you
still met every requirement

and really well in a very
rigorous graduate level course.

And that speaks to design.

Our learners are incredibly
capable of success.

Our design prohibits
that a lot of the time.

- I think so often

and every grade level, so
much of education is wrapped

around teacher convenience

or teacher process where,
you know, that is so,

so many times just the
antithesis of student need

and student process.

And I know this is a job.

I know that there is a
schedule that grades have

to be in a certain time that, you know,

especially in standards driven operations,

that certain topics have to be covered.

All of these things are the
facts of life and education.

But I don't think any of them truly

usurp the need of the student.

And you know, we shouldn't
ever say, oh no, I'm sorry,

the rules don't allow that
when the reality is, you know,

if we give them an extra
hour or two or a week.

So what, you know, if they
learn something in the process,

man we've just done them a huge favor

and we have made the next
learning opportunity possible.

But if we shut 'em down,
if we say sorry, you know,

it was 12 o'clock and you're
not in, I'm not taking it.

You know, that's something.

Now that's kind of ironic that I say this

because you remember I
taught video production

and I taught specifically editing.

And editing is a deadline driven job.

If you don't make the
deadline, it doesn't air,

you don't get paid.

It's very simple, so I always
taught my editing courses

as sorry, but if I don't get
it, you know, I don't want it.

And in 12 years of teaching at that level,

I only had one student who wanted to try

and challenge me at that.

And you know, I said,
but this is the rules.

This is not my rules.

I'm just trying to help
you learn the rules.

Because if you want to be successful,

you gotta follow the rules
at some point in time.

But you know, these are
college level kids, you know,

they can do this and
they all did amazingly.

So you just gotta be fair.

You gotta be, you gotta be,
you gotta communicate all

of this stuff appropriately

and you gotta execute it you universally.

- And I think another
point there too is when we

think about those firm goals,
flexible means is, you know,

the granted when I am at work,
I need to meet deadlines.

But I think the other thing
we have to realize is many

of these people are putting,

are meeting the deadlines at work.

They are meeting the deadlines

for their kids doctor appointments.

When you are teaching
adult learners, honestly,

if something's gotta give,
it will never be my kids

and it will never be my colleagues.

It's gonna be my own education.

And I always try to to say that
of like, I am a practitioner

as well and you know, as much

as yes there is a drop
dead deadline for me

because I have to submit
the grades to the college.

Like I have no way around that.

I can be flexible up until a point.

But I say this to to educators
a lot too when you teach

younger learners is there's
this, this institutional belief

that every learner has

to try their hardest
every day at everything.

And it's always like, but

what if they choose the easy thing?

And it's like, okay, I'm a
very, very strong reader.

If I choose an audio book,
that's not an easy thing.

It's, I have a two and a half hour drive

after this to go home

and that allows me to read while commuting

so it doesn't take time away from my kids.

And you know, I think that
especially with adult learners,

we have to realize that
like your three hour class

when this person has children
and is raising a family

and is working two full-time jobs

and is worried about finances

and is facing, you know,
all this other insecurity

that like, no offense,

but like getting your paper
in on time is not the most

important thing in their world.

And when you say, well
when can you get it to me?

What does work?

Tell me what your week is like?

I think that's the magic.

Because you don't want to say, oh,

do nothing all semester,
it's gonna be fine.

I think the conversation
is when this is your job,

you will be fired very
quickly if you're not

known to meet deadlines.

So if you think that the deadlines
I'm giving you right now,

given everything else you're juggling

or unreasonable, I need you to advocate

and tell me what can you do?

What deadline can you meet?

Oh you work until 2:00 AM on Saturday

and you want to catch it up on Sunday

and you want it to get
to me on Sunday instead?

That's awesome and so, you
know, a lot of the times we,

as you said Dad, we say
that we're scaffolding

and we're really just puppeteering

and you know, saying

that it must be due on Sunday at midnight

'cause I want it correct
on Monday is not real.

That's like a unicorn deadline.

It's made up.

- Yeah, I mean overall
it's just trying to get

that student feedback

and that is going to then
influence what you've done.

That's what I've learned from your book

and it's what I continue to do.

And even for teaching my
courses online, I teach

for Southern New Hampshire University

and the minute everything
started happening with the world

outside going bananas, I got
one email that was just like,

oh my gosh, I'm so sorry
my mother got sick.

I don't know what to do and
it's just like, as soon as I saw

that I made every announcement, email,

video humanly possible just saying like,

take care of yourselves.

I understand it's a pandemic.

Like I don't care if you
didn't get it in at exactly

12 o'clock AM for a discussion board post.

Like, it's fine.

Like we're gonna be okay,

we're gonna make it through,

but I need that, you know,
I need that student feedback

to be able to then talk to them.

And I really don't know
where this concept came from

from education that we can't
ask our students what they want

or what's the best way to serve them?

I don't know how that myth or rumor

or whatever it is that feeling
that we can't reach out

to them, especially as adult learners.

That's how I still
design my courses now is

that I do a pilot program for
every single course I design

and the whole point is

to get student feedback
along every single module

and what they liked and
what I could improve upon,

and that by far has been
the greatest asset for

how I have designed things

and for some things that
I would've never guessed

to put into the course.

But then I hear from some
folks who are saying, you know,

I want a template way
for you to give to me

for, to taking notes.

I just want a template
with the bullet points

and the key takeaways for every module.

It's like easy done had some folks,

or Katie, you were
talking about a commute.

I had plenty of folks
who were telling me that.

They're like, I have a 30 minute drive

to work if you can gimme something

to help me out in that sense.

So I made a podcast for every course.

I was like, here you go,
here's the course content.

But it's in a podcast
interview for, you know, done.

It's not that hard to do

but it certainly takes
thinking outside the box

and making that extra effort

and really that time commitment 'cause

obviously none of that was quick.

That all took months to
be able to really get down

perfectly from that sense.

And that's actually

how we all started talking
in the first place.

- Exactly and the reality is,

is that you don't have
to have it all at once.

You know this can evolve

and you can start off
with your best prediction

and you can modify it and you can react

and you can be flexible

and you can use the the students
to help you along with this

by getting their feedback.

And in some cases getting their resources,

you know, make them
partners in the course.

You know, if you don't
like these resources,

go find your own and please
submit them to the group.

That kind of thing.

You know, why do we think

that they need everything from us?

Why can't we develop their own sense

of knowledge

and their own sense

of curiosity in this
process at the same time?

- That's a great point and speaking

of everything from challenges and time

and all the other things that
are going on, I was speaking

with someone last week

and she was asking me about
just from the instructional

design field in general

because of course now all
eyes are on instructional

designers to basically save
the world from everything

with remote and COVID.

That's just, it is what it is.

And one of the questions that
she was asking me was about

what challenge do I see
instructional designers

facing going forward?

And what I said is that the
biggest challenge I can see

that's gonna be a significant
challenge is taking all

of these courses and now revising
them to make them better.

And that is what I think
we're gonna be facing.

So I'm gonna throw back
question to you folks.

If you are an instructional designer

and now you have been tasked with trying

to be able to revise a number
of courses before the fall

'cause some people are
actually opening up just like

that like clockwork.

Where should you start?

What priority would you set?

What would you do for an order to be able

to start tackling this list?

- We are actually doing that
at New England Tech right now.

It's a challenge

that requires everybody
to be on board obviously,

you know, at New England Tech,

a small technical college, you
know, we have 2100 students

and we provide probably
8 to 900 course sections

every 10 weeks, right?

So we're now in the process of
getting our summer term ready

for rollout

and it'll primarily still be online

for the summer term except

for the hands-on stuff
which will come back

to campus on a restricted format.

So we have some departments

who have embraced this
idea very, very early

and they've met with the
instructional designers

and they've come up with kind
of like a course template

that each faculty member can work within

and build upon so that it at
least identifies the holes

that are present in the current courses

because the current courses were developed

for in-class instruction.

And let's face it, faculty adapt very,

very much off the cuff.

You know, in most cases, you
know, they have their content,

they are versed in their content,
they have their exercises

and assignments, but they respond

to what's happening in the classrooms

and change as they need to.

You can't do that in an
online class environment.

You know, you have to be ready for all

of these options and choices.

So, you know, in one particular
department, you know,

we're doing exactly that.

We came up with a departmental template,

which gave some flexibility

and some order so the student
didn't have to relearn

the canvas platform every time
they went into a new course.

And it gave a chance for, in some cases

for a production assistant
to go into the course,

make the transition into the template

and identify the holes.

Would you like something here
or this is confusing there.

This isn't, you know, this,
I found this one a couple

of times where I've been helping out here

where people will modify their
syllabus on the fly as well

and they'll do things in week
four that they had scheduled

for week five and vice versa.

But the syllabus is now wrong.

We have to identify that
so that they can fix it

or bring it back the way it was

and you know, just really identify first

and foremost what they
have and what is missing.

And so by doing that we
can at least get the layer

to make sure that what we have is right,

has all the instructions
necessary, has some sort

of feedback loop through
either discussion forums

or surveys and all of these things.

You know, we start with what we got

because we can't start from ground zero

and build, you know, in
that kind of a vacuum.

And then we have to, you know,
we can even do this in layers

and start, you know, once we
have everything straightened

out, just go back in

and now saying, okay, now
I want to add more choices

or now I want to add some
variations and assessments,

or now I want to do this
or now I want to do this

because I'm responding to the variability

that I know I'm gonna get

and I'm gonna respond to the barriers

that I think will be there too.

- And I think also I'm
gonna throw a wrench in

that is I don't think we should be

preparing for online classes.

I think we should be
designing hybrid classes

because this is gonna go
back and forth indefinitely

and what what scares me
is that we're putting all

of this time into a virtual class

and then eventually there'll be a vaccine

and eventually we return to class.

And does that mean all this
amazing design goes away

and we go back to textbooks and lectures.

And so I think that as we
look to the future, it's

how do we design a course

that lives in a learning management system

that at any time could
become an in-person course,

and to not pin them against each other

because like what my concern
is always is, well this is

what I really wanna do, but

because we have to go
online, I'm gonna create this

and it's more flexible
and it's more engaging

and then it's like, oh
good, now we can go back.

I don't have to do that anymore.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's actually what we said in the book.

You know, we want to
create stuff that lives

in a learning management system so

that it could at any
particular time be available

and the students would know
how to use it in a remote

or distance or online environment.

So the the challenge really
is, you know, coming up

with that wonderful mix
that you know allows you

to use your learning
management system all the time.

You know, this is not something

that I'm just going use for online.

One of the things which
I've been promoting

for a long time is the very simple fact

that if you put everything

that you use into your
learning management system,

the student actually
can have access to that.

Whether they are in class
or whether they are home

or at work, you know, so
they do have access anywhere,

anytime to all of the
learning resource materials.

If you then add that
wonderful layer of UDL to it

where they are able to
access it from any one

of those places regardless
of the conditions they're in,

you know, close captioning on videos

and you know, readable PDFs

and things like that, you know,

you have just started stacking
up all of the possibilities

to really support these
students in multiple ways,

which is just wonderful.

- And that goes to the point
in the book as well too,

talking about the virtual snow days

and the flipped classroom,

which by far the best conversations

and discussions I ever had
in college were the days

where I had to read something beforehand

where I went online
connected with folks inside

of a discussion board
and then we went school

and then we got to talk about in person.

And we got to either debate

or you know, whatever we were doing.

And by far those were
most the productive uses

of our time compared to
anything else I've encountered.

So it's really interesting.

I'm not too sure where
we will go futurewise.

I think it's a great idea, Katie.

I really hope that that goes that way

'cause if I put my
futuristic thinking cap on,

I live in New Hampshire and
I've been following all the

schools in my area

and so far there's only one
that decided to continue

to be online.

And that's Snoop.

Yeah, that's it.

Everyone else is saying that
they're going back to school

and I read Dr. LeBlanc's
statement this morning

talking about why he wants

to wait until there is a vaccine

and to make sure we understand more.

And of course all of his precautions

and everything he was talking about

for his warning signs were true that yeah,

you don't want to affect the entire staff.

It's not just the students
of the 18 and 22 year olds.

There's way more people, there's
far more things to consider

and what if they go home
'cause the commuters

and affect their family and you know,

there's a number of different things.

So I really do wonder where
this is going to take us,

but I think it's a step
in the right direction.

- I think it's gonna
take us back and forth.

Like I was just talking
to my sister this morning

and I was saying like, okay,
so there's a vaccine for this,

but now we know that people can go remote.

So is it now every flu
season we go remote or,

and I'm not even talking a big pandemic is

as a public school
administrator, there are times

that 25% of our staff has to call in sick

because they're either
sick or they're caretaking

for their children who are sick.

And it's, once we know that
we have the infrastructure

to be able to provide things remotely,

what is gonna stop us from
saying not only snow days,

but okay, it's super hot,
let's just go remote.

Okay, there's a flu season
coming, let's just go remote.

It's too cold to wait at the bus stop.

Let's go remote.

You know, I, and I think that the schools

that are going in person, I
hope I'm wrong, are gonna have

to pull back and to go virtual
again before being able

to stay in that space.

And it's, we have to design knowing

that like if I design that course

and they were in person,

I want to make sure I didn't
do that design for nothing.

That it could still be, Hey
listen, like I'm having a class

and if for some reason
you can't make a class,

you can still learn online,

but I'd love you to come
to at least, you know,

three quarters of the classes.

Or you know, could I have things?

Could I have the option
to Zoom in, you know,

while I'm on a swivel in my classroom?

Like there's so many cool
things we can do if we say it's

not online or in person.

It's how do we design something

that literally works regardless.

- Yes, I agree.

- Totally.

And I am really curious too about

the K through 12 environment.

Same thing.

If they're going to be doing the something

of like three days a week, go
to school, two days virtual

or whatnot because a side
effect from all of this,

while yes, the pandemic is
awful in a number of ways

for online learning

and remote learning specifically,

they are learning real tangible skills

for on the job of what they do.

As I thinking in talking
to some of my cousins

who are Gen Z and they're
like, oh yeah, I use Slack

for school and you know, Discord

and all, it's over different
things and it's like, guys,

like I use that for work.

You're gonna use Slack
for the rest of your life

until a new thing comes out.

Like this is, this is
real on the job training

that you weren't anticipating,
but this is where we are.

It is what it is.

So for the instructors

and the, you know,

and the instructional designers
in a sense we're talking

about everything for remote
learning, if we're gonna stay on

that topic, is that one

of the things I keep on reading about

and hearing about is
that there is not so much

as a connection to their students

as there would be if they
were in a face-to-face model.

The online version for
some reason doesn't provide

that relationship to them

that they've always has been looking for.

Can you talk about the importance
of an instructor presence

and how, if we are going
this way in the future

to do this hybrid

or whatever it may be, how can we ensure

that instructors are
building this presence

inside of their classrooms?

- The, it is so important.

I mean, and I think the, the
instructor sets the tone by

how they present themself

and how they are present
in their course every day.

That has everything to do with,
you know, their willingness

to share their image.

You know, whether it be in video

or, you know, as a
snapshot or whatever it is.

You know, so many
instructors simply don't want

to have anything to do with that.

I don't want to see myself
on camera kinda like thing.

And you know, it's a silly little thing

which makes a big difference in

bridging that gap between
where I am and where you are.

You know, being able to see

and hear us is a great way

of making a human connection.

And as Katie said before, this
is all an emotional process.

It's all a relationship building

and the more we can do to
build that relationship,

the better it is.

I think it also comes down to the type

of language we use in our text back

and forth in our communications
and how we introduce things.

If we're going to make everything strict

and formal that says something

and it creates a little bit of
a barrier between you and me

and that whole relationship
which we have to then try

and tear down in order to
make that personal connection.

What do you think Kate?

- No again, show your cat pictures.

Like everybody is juggling so many things

and one of the worst
things that you can do.

We talk about instructor
presence being, you know,

there's social presence,
there's cognitive presence,

there's, are you there
to facilitate discourse

or you just like some, you know,

not even talking head would be great.

You are like some talking non head.

But you know, I think that
the social presence is

what allows us to feel like
we are working with someone

that there's some sort of
community and collaboration

and there is nothing worse than going

through an online learning experience

or any, it could be an
in-person learning experience,

but I think people are much more likely

to be present in person,

where you feel like you
don't even know the person.

Like you feel like you weren't even there.

And you know, a part of
social presence is kind of

that humanness of learning.

You know, there's amazing, amazing apps,

there's amazing technology.

Those cannot replicate
the humanness of learning.

And in sometimes when the
more technology we use,

the more personhood we lose.

And the goal is really how do you maintain

that social presence, maintain
the relationship, make sure

that you have really rich discussions

with everybody in the course
that you are facilitating,

you know, discussions among other people.

And that the course truly exemplifies your

craft of design is, this is not all about,

well I know the content
I'm gonna wash my hands

and send it to an instructional
designer is we should be

working with instructional designers.

So our personality,
our cognitive presence,

our social presence comes
out in the course because

otherwise we might as well have

robots teaching the damn things.

- It's true.

It's funny the speaking
of instructor presence

by far the most responses

and most engagement I ever
saw inside one of my courses

that I was teaching was an
announcement that I made

because it was Star Wars Day on campus

and I found a Storm
Trooper, my name is Luke,

obviously I had to go and find him.

And this is a silly picture

of me pointing to this Storm Trooper.

And by far everyone loved it.

They thought it was like the
greatest thing on the planet

to know that I'm a real guy.

It was like, yep, I'm a real person.

Like I swear these announcements

and emails coming from me, not a robot.

Like it's real, you
know, it's just so true.

So last question before I let you on go

'cause I know we're getting
close to the hour is just

to fully nerd out

because I saved this the
best for last obviously.

What is your favorite
example you have seen so far?

Whether it is something you have seen

or something that you have
designed as far as for real,

UDL and action?

- Been a couple of them
actually, the one that happened

like two weeks ago,

which I just thought
was absolutely amazing.

I shared it with Katie, it was one

of my instructors at New England Tech

who runs a business finance course.

Okay, talk about the challenge,
right to get engagement in.

But he set it up for their final project

that they could do anything they want.

That was his, you know,

I don't care if it's a
PowerPoint presentation,

I don't care what it is.

The only requirement is
that it has to be factual

and it cannot be boring.

- Not boring.

- Not boring.

- Makes sense.

- And he had one kid who did a rap song

about a financial act.

I don't even remember the
name of this act, you know,

the the Moyer Buyer
Act or whatever it was.

And it was absolutely fabulous

and it actually stated what
all of the information was,

but it was to in song to a famous tune.

It was absolutely.

- That's amazing.

- And the kid, I bet you learn more from

that song creation, you know
'cause he had to do it over

and over again and work with it

and work with it than he
probably did from any other

thing in that whole course.

- That's awesome.

Katie, what about yours?

- Oh my gosh, this is
such a hard question.

You know, I would say that some

of my most meaningful UDL work
has, when I have just said

to my class, I have

to tell you I'm struggling with something.

I am trying to design
something and this is the goal

and these are the barriers
that I've come up with.

And I can't think of a
lot of really good ways

to eliminate the barriers.

Can you help me?

And again, this has
happened so many times,

but recently it was, people
are so freaking clever.

So my friend George Koros,

who is a presenter for Innovation,

he always says the smartest
person in the room is the room

that like, the more you
could crowdsource ideas,

the more likelihood of
getting a decent answer.

And so I was doing this huge
state conference in Washington

state and you know, I wanted
to give a choice for like,

if you wanted to go into a
breakout room, then that's great,

but I know that some
of you won't have audio

and you won't have video.

So like, it's just not a great option.

Some of you might have
the choice of, you know,

just texting your colleagues,

but then I tried to like
make the breakout rooms huge

knowing that there might have only been

one or two people in there.

And then there were breakout
rooms with only one person.

And so I came back, I'm like, oh my gosh,

that was a disaster.

I said, I really want
to give you this option.

I really honestly do

because I recognize that like
sometimes my four kids are in

the background, I can't do
a breakout room sometimes.

And it doesn't mean you're not engaged

and not willing to have a conversation.

It's just it can't do it then, I said,

is there any way that I could organize it?

And so they put out all these ideas

and one of the ideas was at
the beginning of every webinar,

play a game where you teach everyone how

to rename themselves in Zoom.

You know, what's your favorite cocktail?

You know, what was your
nickname when you were little?

And when it comes time for the options,

just change your name to yes.

If you want to be in a breakout room.

And I'm like dammit,
that's so good and so easy.

And I swear I would've
never thought of it,

but it was like, things like that, I think

that sometimes we're like, oh, I have

to ask the instructional
designer what to do, right?

And be vulnerable enough to
say, I want to design something.

Can anyone help me?

And that has taught me more about design

than I think I've learned

any other way, is just the
ideas of the people who I am,

I'm learning with and for and about.

- And what better way to
model expert learning than

that, you know?

Just to say, I don't have it yet.

Can you help me get it?

- That's amazing.

Have you both seen the meme that's going

around online of one of the
kids taking remote learning

and he changed his name to reconnecting

so he wouldn't get called class.

Have you seen incredible
reconnecting... is what

he changed his name to.

Amazing.

Like, no way.

- Brilliant.

- Students are smart,
that's the whole point.

Like, they know what to do,
they figure it out, they adapt.

It's just, it's too funny.

Well, thank you both so
much for joining me today.

This has been an absolute blast.

Where can people go to learn
more about you, your work,

your research and everything else?

- So both of us are at novakeducation.com.

If you click on meet our team,
there's my, Tom has a page.

I have a page and again,

what's been really cool about
this is we wrote, you know,

we published "UDL in the Cloud" in '16,

and in the past three weeks we
sold more copies than we sold

the previous three years.

And so like right now,
the concept of like,

how do we design better
in the cloud is hot.

And so, you know, again, I
think that that this shows that,

you know, three years ago,

four years ago, we talked about that.

Like, you know, someday
we're gonna have to go online

and it's gonna be a
barrier if we don't think

about how to design online.

And it's great to be in a
place where we realize just

how important this is.

And it, again, this is not
a question about in person

or online, is it any time
in the future we have

to be ready to go remote.

And that means we have to
design very differently.

- Your book is the number one
book that I always recommend

to Facebook and LinkedIn groups

for instructional designers when they ask,

you know, what should I read?

And I noticed right away
that all the books started

to sell out because
everyone came back to me

and they're like, I can't find it.

I'm like, what do you
mean you can't find it?

It's on Amazon.

Just go find it.

And sure enough, I was
like, oh, you're right.

They're gone.

(group laughing)

- It's been wild.

So we just did a big new
printing, so we'll be good.

- Awesome.

Awesome.

Well once again, folks, thanks so much.

I appreciate your time.

- You're welcome, Luke.

Have a great day.

- Have a great day, bye-bye.

- A big thank you once again for Katie

and Tom for coming on the show.

Without them, I don't know
where I would be today.

To find out more about them

and their work, you can find the link

to Novak Education in the show notes.

If you want to win a copy
of "UDL in the Cloud,"

I'm hosting a book
giveaway contest right now.

Subscribe to the show

and share the contest link
to be able to enter to win.

This contest is also free by the way,

and not like a weird
enter your credit card

for a free trial free, I
mean, legitimately free.

The winner will be chosen by July 7th.

That is two weeks from today.

Good luck to everyone
who enters the contest

for winning a free copy of the book.

I also want to say a big
thank you to a new sponsor

of a show Squad Cast.

If you enjoyed today's quality
for the podcast recording,

it's all thanks to Squad Cast.

If you are still using Zoom

or other platforms to record
your audio files for podcasts

and for interviews, just
switch to Squad Cast.

Their platform lets you do video calls,

but it only records the audio files

and it also gives you an
individual file per guest.

This way you can still see the person

that you're interviewing,
making eye contact,

reading body language,

but the bandwidth isn't all screwed up

because you're recording
the video at the same time.

It's super easy to do.

It's the right way to do podcasting.

To learn more about Squad Cast,

click on the link in the show notes,

and if you purchase through that link,

a big thank you as well.

Who should I interview next?

Tell me on LinkedIn, Twitter, or Facebook.

Tag the person, would love to
have a conversation with them

and to bring them on board the show.

To find out more information
about the podcast, my blog

or anything else, head on
over to drlukehobson.com.

Subscribe to the show to
hear the next episode.

And as always, five
star ratings and reviews

they are always welcome.

But that's it.

That is all I have for
you my fellow nerds.

Take care, be well, I'll
talk to you next time.

(upbeat music)