Wee BSL Blethers - Erin and Margaret

Hello. My name is Erin McCluskey.
This is a Wee BSL Blethers video on role models.

You will see I have somebody with me.
Could you introduce yourself please?

My name is Margaret McLean.

Marvellous! Do you have a sign name, Margaret?

Just MML.

I’ll call you this sign name today if
that’s alright? Okay. So I am going to

interview Margaret about her childhood.
Find out what it was like for her growing up,

getting her first job and so on.
I’m really looking forward to finding out more.

Margaret, firstly, can I ask what it
was like for you growing up?

Well I come from a Deaf family so BSL
was used every day at home.

I only have a ran into issues outside
of home, with hearing people.

It did make me a bit reluctant to mix.

So growing up things were pretty easy
and comfortable in terms of accessible

communication, at home at least?

Easy, yes. Everybody signed every day
within my family so there were no issues at all.

So your family were all Deaf then?

Yes.

Parents? Your siblings?

Yes, all Deaf.

And were you all close?

Yes, we were a close family I would
say, because of BSL. I was closest to

my father because he would tell me
a lot of stuff. I think he was my

role model growing up.

How lovely. Your dad was your role model.

Yes.

He encouraged and supported you growing up?

Yes.

Marvellous. And that’s a perfect link into
what I want to ask you about next

because I want to talk about school.
When you first went to school, what was it like?

I first went to a local school. One I could
walk to from home. I think it was only about

five minutes away. My parents wanted
me to go there so I was nearby.

They did not want to send me away
to boarding school.

Unfortunately, the focus was very much
on speaking and listening so my parents

eventually decided to send me to a
school in Glasgow where they used sign language.

Makes sense. So your parents decided
to remove you from that local school

because it did not suit you and they
had to send you away.

Were you happy at your school in Glasgow?

It was okay. They used sign language
there, but the teachers couldn’t really

sign very well. They would speak and
throw in a few signs here in there, but not many.

And at that time I guess sign language was
very much seen as undesirable, am I right?

Yes. It was a long time ago now and there
were very old-fashioned views.

There was no real awareness of the
language or its importance.

I think things are very different now of course.

Yes.

So, thinking about school, what was your
favourite topic and what did

you really hate learning about?

I really loved arithmetic. Nobody calls it
that anymore. It’s become maths hasn’t it.

But we used to call it arithmetic.

Oh really! So you were good
at that and enjoyed it?

Yes. I loved arithmetic. I was okay at
English. The subject I really hated was sewing.

Really! Why?

Yes! I always used to mess it up and
get it wrong. I found it really frustrating.

Maybe you lacked
confidence in that subject.

I think you’re right.

So you progressed through your schooling
and eventually left school. Did you have any

support to help you find a job.
Did you go to college or university?

There was nothing really back then.
I do remember meeting with the

Careers Advisor and telling them
I wanted to become a Teacher of the Deaf.

They told me I could not do that because
I was Deaf myself. What a discriminatory attitude!

I decided to ask the social worker
about it and told them the same thing,

that I wanted to become a Teacher of
the Deaf. They also told me that I could

not do that job and suggested that
I become a machinist. I refused and they

said I would have to go
to the DHSS in that case.

What is the DHSS?

It’s what’s known as the DWP these days.

Oh I see.

Similar to the job centre now. So I went
along, and they suggested I try for office

work, which sounded okay, but it meant
I had to go to college. They helped me fill

in the application forms and I sent
them off. I soon heard that I’d been

offered a place which was great.
I went to college to learn how to be a secretary,

but I found it really difficult
because I did not have an interpreter.

How did you get on?

I managed the best I could. I kept asking
the lady sat next to me what we were

supposed to be doing. I think she
found it a bit frustrating.

She was fed up that I was taking up
her time. I tried my best though and

I did get through the course and
luckily, straight out to work.

And you got your certificate? Did you
go off and work in an office then?

Yes that’s right. The course was a year
and then after that I got a job in an office.

I was there for seven years,
then I left to start a family.

So when you became pregnant, you left
your job and focused on raising your family.

Did you take on any other work after that?

I did a few little jobs, but nothing
interesting until I saw an advert for a

BSL role model essentially. At that time,
the role was known as an auxiliary.

It’s changed now. I was not successful
the first time I applied for one of these roles.

It wasn’t until my third attempt
that I finally got a job.

Do you know why you were unsuccessful
the first two times you tried?

I don’t know. I think it was because the
organisation at that time was maybe not

aware of what BSL was and were not
expecting a Deaf person to apply for the role.

The families they wanted someone to work
with were hearing, so perhaps they assumed

it would be better to have a hearing person
in post. I don’t know that for sure though.

So you were finally successful on your
third attempt. What did your work as a

BSL advocate involved?

Well really, I just helped the parents.
I taught them sign language.

I supported nursery staff and primary
school staff and even secondary

school staff too, advising them how
to support their Deaf students.

So you must have had to travel
around a lot for your job?

Yes, I travelled all over the place.
I had a lot of work to do.

And did you teach sign language
as part of your role?

I did, yes.

Did you cover Deaf identity,
culture and so on as well?

Yes, I did, but my role was really more
focused around supporting the young person.

For example, I would read a book with
them and explain the meaning of particular

words to try and increase their sign
vocabulary. I would do the same for numbers.

Sounds like a great job. Okay, let’s move
on a little to our connection.

When I was little, you taught me
BSL didn’t you Margaret?

I did.

I remember Margaret working with me.
She was my role model.

She gave me the most wonderful gift,
the gift of British Sign Language.

I feel incredibly lucky to have had the
opportunity to learn BSL from Margaret.

Without her, I don’t know what my life
would be like now. I don’t think I would

be where I am now. It didn’t just stop
with me though. I have been able to share

this beautiful language with my parents too.
This makes our family connections so much easier.

So Margaret, you really are my role model.
When I was little, you used to come out

to my nursery. I still have some photos from
that time which I’d love to share with our viewers:

How sweet! Would you like to share any
memories of that time, Margaret?

I don’t really remember anything much
because I was so very young, but maybe you can.

Yes, I can remember very clearly.
I remember I started working with you

when you were about 1 ½. When I first
arrived, you ran off and hid under the table.

You did this every single time I visited,
for weeks, and I visited twice a week.

Your mum would try to encourage you to
come out and finally you did, and we

started to form a bond.
After that, things got better.

I think I was probably just really thrown
because you were using sign language and

although my parents signed a little,
it was the first time I had met anybody

who was fluent in BSL. I just panicked.
Once I realised you were okay, things improved,

and I learned so much from you.

I think because you had never seen a
Deaf person before it was a bit of a shock.

I remember when you were about three,
you asked me why I was different.

I remember having to explain to you that
you and I were the same, that we were both

Deaf and that we were different from
your parents. I could see this really puzzled you.

I explained that your mum and dad
were learning to sign so they could help

help you and that’s what happened
now you’re all grown up.

I was young, about four I think, when
I realised I was different from my parents.

3 ½, four, yes, about that age.
Very young. I remember that conversation.

You used to come to my house twice a
week to work with me, teach me

sign language and so on.

That’s right, yes. Your Teacher of the Deaf
sed to give me things for you to work on

but you were never interested.
You were very focused on BSL and

just wanted to sign with me.
You were hungry to learn more signs.

You were not interested in worksheets!

I’m still like that now. I love nothing more
than a long conversation in BSL!

Like I said, I don’t really remember much
rom that time, but I do remember a few things.

I remember one day you came to my house,
and we went out into the garden.

You taught me the signs for things in
the garden like STONE and LEAF and so on,

do you remember that?

I do, yes! It was a lovely sunny day.
We usually stayed in the house

but I wanted to go outside so I asked your
mum if it was okay and she was really happy

for us to go out into the garden.
You were so curious. You wanted to know

everything about everything! What is this?
What is that? What is inside it? Why?

So many questions!

Why? Why? Why? Right!
My favourite question. Wow.

Absolutely. You always would ask why.

So, you used to come to our house
twice a week and you also used to visit

my nursery setting, I think.

Let me think. Yes, right, I did go to your
nursery. I’ll never forget staff at your nursery

saying once that they had never seen you cry,
but your home was only just across the

road and you knew it was there so
you felt safe. They never thought of that.

Yes, it was really close by.

Honestly!

Yes, I was the model child. You came
to my nursery to help me to be more included.

I remember you doing group work.

Yes. We did that sometimes. Sometimes
the other children did not want to.

One or two of the kids were keen to
learn sign language but it was quite difficult.

The staff were very good.
I have to say they were lovely.

Lovely. You came with me
to primary school too.

Yes, I did. I remember when you first
started at one primary school,

they asked me to come in and work
with the class to help you settle,

alongside the teacher. I used to come in
twice a week. After a while you started

saying to me that I was using the wrong
signs for things, because your teacher

had told you something different.
I asked you to please just follow what I told

you as I was Deaf like you and had
used sign language my whole life.

Your teacher had not. At that time there
was very little BSL awareness the teacher

thought they could just make it up
and it would be fine.

There was a lot of that kind of attitude.

You and I have had a relationship since
I was about one and a half.

You taught me sign language that
whole time. I remember starting

primary at the age of about six and
some of the kids telling me that my signs

were wrong. I remember asking you
about it and you told me to ignore them.

There was nothing wrong with the
way we signed and if they signed things

differently then perhaps they were
from a different region or a different country.

You explained that things are signed
differently in different places and that’s fine.

I was surprised to learn that,
but of course it’s true. I remember you

explaining that to me.

Yes. Different signs in different regions,
and that’s something parents may not

have been aware of. But we had that
bond, and I know that your mum signed

as well and that was important.

Definitely! It has been so lovely to talk
to you Margaret. I have one final question, if I may.

Do you have any tips or advice for any
Deaf young people out there who might

be watching?

I would say to any Deaf young person,
don’t let anyone tell you what you can or

can’t do. If you want to do something,
go for it. If you feel passionately about BSL,

we need more Deaf people to work
as assistants for Deaf children,

to encourage them to keep signing forever.

If the opportunity is out there, grab it!

Absolutely.

Brilliant! Thank you so much for talking
to me. I’ve really enjoyed our chat. Goodbye.

Goodbye.