DressedToExpress_Panel_2025_v5

Okay, hello and welcome
to Dress to Express.

So, as this art form evolves,

I think it's important to include
conversations about the role of dance wear

and how to foster authenticity with it.

So my name is Monroe,

I'm 16 years old from Vancouver, D.C.

Jasmine, do you want
to introduce yourself?

Hi, my name is Jasmine.

I'm also 16 years old.

I'm from Mississauga, Ontario,

and I'm part of the Youth Assembly
member with Ballet Forward.

But before we jump in,

let's take a second
to introduce our panelists.

Jordana, let's start with you.

Hi everyone, my name
is Jordana Daumec.

I am a graduate of
the National Ballet School,

went on to have
a almost over 20-year career

at the National Ballet of Canada.

And now, I get the pleasure of
being a teacher back here at NBS again.

I'm so happy to be here.

I've done a lot of work over the years
in EDI for the ballet world

and I'm just happy to keep it going.

Awesome, amazing, thank you.

Aaliyah?

Hi everyone, my name is Aaliyah Garcia,

and I'm a dance professional
here in Toronto.

My performing career
has been about 14 plus years,

and now I've transitioned to teach
and help mentor younger performers today.

I also am an entrepreneur,

so I own my own dance wear company
that provides inclusive dance wear

and it's called Exposed.

Nice, thank you.

Now, last but not least, Miss Renee.

Hi everyone, my name is Renee Raymond.

I'm a registered provisional psychologist

as well as a registered psychotherapist
here in Toronto.

I work with a lot of high performers.

I work with ballet dancers and athletes

from the varsity
to the national team level.

But I work with a lot of,
again, professional ballet dancers

and ballet students, coaches, teachers,

and really just working with them
to improve their performance on stage

as well as improve their mental health
whenever there are concerns.

Excellent, thank you all
so much for being here,

and I'm looking forward
to a great discussion,

so let's dive in.

For my first question,

it's directed towards Jordana and Aaliyah,

and it's how has your personal journey
assisted in your passion and advocacy

for dancers' access
to inclusive dance wear?

I don't mind starting (laughing).

Yeah, so my journey started,

I think, similar to
a lot of young dancers.

I grew up dancing at a local dance studio.

I remember I used to compete a lot,
and I had a jazz solo.

There were a few specific moments

that really made me think about
or maybe question

or maybe question

why there weren't options
available for me as a dancer.

In this solo that I had,

my mom, she actually would
paint my jazz shoes brown.

I remember every time I went on stage,

there would be like little beige dots

from where my toes would
kind of scrape the stage.

That memory always kind of sat with me.

And then as I moved on
into my professional career

and trained at university,

there were still no options
for people of colour.

It really made me think about
how can I acquire this product,

which eventually led to me
producing this product

for myself and dancers
that came after me.

That's kind of how it
impacted my journey here.

Beautiful, beautiful answer.

Thank you.

Jordana?

For myself, I grew up in New York,

so I was really blessed

that I got to be surrounded
by so many different art forms

and the different schools that I went to,

like I actually got to go to DTH,
Dancer of Harlem,

the school for a little bit.

So I kind of grew up seeing

like tights not being able to show
who our own personal beings were

and the sort of the history
of what tights were supposed to be.

I remember getting into the company
and feeling like the same way for that.

And just when we would
have to pancake our shoes

when we were doing more
of the contemporary ballets

and just how much better
I felt about myself

and the way that I looked in the mirror
and like my line,

and just how everyone felt that way.

It was just across the board.

It didn't matter, like we all
just felt better like that,

and then not seeing
the options that were available.

Or, when there was an option,
it was just like the jazz tan,

that you were like
everyone had to wear jazz tan,

and obviously that did not
look good on everyone.

It's just so beautiful

to see that we have more options
that are coming out

and having people who are...

Aaliyah, I'm pointing at you.

(laughing)

You're in here in my square,
so I'm pointing to you.

That people are out there,

that are making it possible
for everyone to step up on that stage.

What I saw growing up
as a kid with Dancer of Harlem

and that just being a nor.

To now, it being a norm for everyone

and possible for everyone
at every company,

every type of art form.

This is just we're doing the history
of what tights were supposed to be.

Like it was meant to be
this colour of the person's skin,

but they couldn't have bare legs.

So now and where we got
ballet pink from like...

It's just really amazing
to just feel like a full circle.

What it felt like for me
like seeing DTH growing up.

And then now just seeing that being

what we should have
for everyone everywhere.

I liked how you both mentioned dyeing
like your dance wear and stuff,

but at what point in your career
did you realize this is a problem

and we need an urgent change
in our dance system,

we have to have inclusive
dance wear for everyone,

not just one specific type of look?

When did you start realizing that?

Yeah, I think I started realizing it
pretty young to be honest,

because before I had that
experience with the jazz shoes.

I also had an experience with tights.

We all had those suntan tights
which were tan.

I remember when I saw
the first pair of brown tights,

I was so excited,

and I had asked my teacher
if I could wear them with my costume,

and because they didn't
have shoes at that time,

she actually said that I couldn't,
because it would cut off my lines.

From that instance,
and that was quite young.

I was maybe 11 around that time.

And then later the experience
with the jazz shoes,

and then later in university
when there were still no options,

I think that was kind of
the turning point for me

when I was like, "OK, I've been
through this much of my career

and there's still nothing for me.

That's not right, so how can I
be a part of that change

and help bring this into the community?"

Yeah similar, like just
going from the states,

and I think it was just
a different vibe down in New York.

especially it's like its own
little universe in New York. (laughing)

To then coming up here
and just seeing that it wasn't available.

I saw it but then I really don't think,

because it just
in the classical ballet company,

it just wasn't a topic
of conversation until COVID

when we actually had a minute to sit down

and actually have the conversations

that we never had had
the time to do before.

It's like when you're
focused just on ballet,

and what the steps are
and putting on the performance.

And then, when you
weren't able to do that,

you actually were able
to sit down and be humans

and talk to each other
and realize like how people are feeling,

what would make you feel better,

what would make you be able
to come out on stage even more.

So I think when that happened,

I think a lot of companies
started hearing those conversations

and then want and the need
to have tights for everyone.

So to see that big change,
it was it was interesting.

It was like something
that my whole career I noticed

but felt kind of helpless for,

and then once the conversations
were happening

and then to see these companies
like Capezio and Bloch and Freed,

like now being like,
"Oh, let us do something now,

and then having entrepreneurs
who are out there

that have the experience
of their own personal lives

to bring forward to show.

Yeah, so it's kind of like that,

I guess it was a feeling of helplessness
of not being able to do something

until those conversations started.

Thank you so much.

Monroe, would you like to
ask your next question?

Your first question.

Yeah, sure.

Renee, could you share a bit

about what challenges
do strict dress codes

and limited access to,
or even acceptance of inclusive dance

represent for dancers of colour,

and how can this affect
someone's mental health,

their confidence, and their motivation?

Yeah, that's a really great question.

Sometimes having these
really strict dress codes,

especially when you're a young dancer,

you're in childhood, adolescence,

and the norm is to wear
a very specific type of colour

or particular dance wear.

In that sense of time

where people are really
forming their identities,

developing their their dancer identity

as well as their own
personal identities.

Sometimes it's really hard
to feel that sense of belongingness,

because if you're, for instance,
colouring your own clothing,

it can send this message like

"Why am I the only one doing that?"

or "Why am I one of the few doing this
and other people don't have to do that?"

So, it can be different
for different people,

but sometimes it can really
give this sense of like,

this art form was created

and it wasn't created with you in mind,

or it hasn't adapted to accept you
even though you're here.

That might be something

that's really jarring
for some people to hear,

because they might think
"Oh it's just just clothing,

everyone's wearing the same thing."

And for some people,

it may not be as much
of a challenge or an issue,

but for those who do care about
representing their their skin tone,

representing their identity

and that brings them a sense
of confidence and good self-esteem,

it can really lead to these very subtle,

and in some cases where people feel
comfortable enough to vocalize it loud

sort of representations of like,

"OK, I don't know if I fit in here."

For mental health related impacts,

it can lead to a lot of anxiety

when it comes to putting on clothing

and finding that
what this doesn't really match.

Or again, you get those
sort of generic colours

and it's like
"This doesn't really fit me."

That might take a dancer's attention
away from their performance.

It may have them be more self-conscious
about "Do I fit the part?"

"Do I look the way
that I'm supposed to,"

in quotes, "on stage?"

or "Do I fit this sort of stage presence?"

Especially when they are perhaps
the only dancers of colour on there

and within their company
or within their school,

this could really be heightened.

because it really just "others" them
from other people,

so can lead to anxiety,
lower self-esteem, lower confidence,

in some cases,
even feelings of depression

if they're really struggling to find ways
to connect to their identity

and connect their sense of self
to being a dancer.

It puts a lot of pressure on dancers

to try to reconcile all of
these different elements

when really, I think what they want to do
is get out there and dance

and represent themselves
in their truest forms .

Yeah, yeah, I really understand that.

You talked about that pressure
to have to ask for these things,

like ask authority if you need
different colour skin,

like skin types or shoes,

and I feel like I just really resonate,
like had that affecting your confidence,

so that was really...

Yeah, for sure,

because if you are now the person
that has to ask for these things,

it puts a lot of the burden
of the responsibility on the dancer.

And again in the space
where uniformity is really important

and conformity.

And then, again,
you're seeing yourself as being different,

it could put a lot of
undue stress on those

who might not be as
comfortable of asking for it,

as well as maybe begs the question,

"Well, why do I have to ask for this?"

"Why is this something
that's provided to me

or as at least as an option?"

Like I said, if some dancers
choose not to wear dance clothing

that is closer to their skin tones.

That's perfectly fine,

but those that feel more comfortable
and want to represent themselves,

I think the option is really important.

Yeah, definitely the option, yeah.

Jasmine, do you want to go next?

Yes, my next question is for Jordana,

and it's how does dance wear
as a student first,

as a professional differ

and how can both dress codes evolve
to allow for inclusive dance wear?

Yeah, so, big differences for sure!

With students,
you want to have clean lines,

so it's more about like

"I don't want to see a baggy shirt
in classical ballet on you

and like big baggy warm-ups
whereas as a company member."

I'd be like "Oh, my thighs are sore,

I need to wear the baggies of clothing
to try to keep all the heat in right now."

But a student, you can't do that.

You have to keep the tights on
only in the leotard only,

so that the teacher
can actually look at you

and be able to give you
as much feedback and corrections,

which is funny though,

because you should still
do that in company life

but that's a whole
another topic. (laughing)

Yeah, so it's different.

I feel like it could maybe
feel more exposed

the fact that you
can't cover things up,

and you have to just be
in a leotard and tights;

whereas in a company class,

if you're feeling like
"Oh, something's hurting."

If I don't feel like
showing myself that day,

you can wear as many things.

It might vary from company to company,

but you can wear
what you need for the moment.

But then at the end of the day,
when we all go out on stage,

you have to wear whatever the costume is.

Even if you don't feel good
in that sometimes,

you still have to go out there and dance

and show that you're not
uncomfortable in it,

so that you're still presenting
yourself out there

and giving a good show.

That can be really really hard to do

if you're not feeling
comfortable in a costume.

And then just back stepping
like so in a company,

you can kind of help yourself
feel more comfortable in yourself,

but then in school, you can't.

School and stage are more connected

than you could say sometimes
for just a company class,

because you're very exposed on stage,

and as a student in a studio
without being able to cover up.

Yes.

since you've been in
sort of both positions

would you want to share which one
was like harder to expose yourself?

Because company,
you're doing basically a job.

This is your job,

but you're working towards that job.

- So which one was...
- Yeah!

I don't know, like as a student,
you have so many aspirations,

and I was just focused on
that big picture.

Like get me out on that four season stage.
I want to show the world me.

And then in the company as you get older,

I think you start knowing more things.

I think this is just in adulthood,
you know more consequences,

more things of like,

"Oh when this is hurting
what's going to happen."

So I think being in the company
might have been harder than at the school,

where you have just
the world ahead of you

and it's your oyster.

Yeah, I think I would say that. (laughing)

Beautiful, thank you so much!

Now my next question is for Aaliyah.

Some major dance company,
some major dance work companies,

have started offering
a wide range of tones,

but there's still a very long way to go.

What do you think is stopping the industry
from fully embracing inclusivity?

I think it can be a number
of different reasons,

and I think it could vary
from company to company,

depending on the values of that company.

But I will say

I can't say that there's
a specific reason why.

I think that I just got
into developing dance wear

about three years ago.

Aside from just being
a consumer of products,

I didn't have experience within it.

I think that a company
that has maybe five or ten years,

the experience that I do,

and probably the budget as well.

I think that they have the resources
to be able to expand their inventory

if I was able to fully
conceptualize the product

from just a sketch or thought
to a tangible item.

I do think that there's
some responsibility

that needs to be held
by the companies.

So I don't think that
there's one specific reason,

or a specific hindrance
that's holding them back.

Since you are an entrepreneur
of a dance wear store?

Yes, a dance wear company, yeah.

Dance wear company, perfect.

What do you think
your hardest obstacle is

when trying to achieve, making sure
there's inclusive dance wear for everyone,

not just one specific type?

What do you think is
your hardest obstacle?

For me,

I would say there's
two difficult obstacles for me.

Product development
does take quite a long time,

so when working with deeper shades,

it's more so about
getting the correct undertone

and stuff like that

and we're developing
for a wide range of complexions.

And then also budget.

Of course as an emerging business,

it does take a lot of resources

to go through
the product development process

and then to purchase that inventory,

so is a product-by-product basis
for me right now.

Those would be my two
biggest hurdles to get over.

(Jasmine) Awesome!

- Can I jump in on that?
- (Jasmine) Of course!